Why Goals Fail and How to Change the Odds

Why Goals Fail and How to Change the Odds written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with award-winning strategy consultant, speaker, and author Kyle Austin Young to explore his decision-making and goal-achievement framework called probability hacking. Kyle explains why traditional goal pursuits rooted in hustle, mindset, and positive thinking fall short and how identifying and solving for potential risks can dramatically shift your odds of success.

Guest Bio

Kyle Austin Young is a strategy consultant, speaker, and writer helping high achievers accomplish meaningful goals through his probability hacking framework. He’s been featured in top publications and is the author of Success Is a Numbers Game: Achieve Bigger Goals by Changing the Odds.

Key Takeaways

• Probability over Mindset: Success isn’t just about positivity—it’s about improving your odds.
• Probability Hacking Framework: Define goals, identify prerequisites, anticipate what could go wrong, and solve creatively.
• Success Diagrams: Visual tools to map out and de-risk goal pathways.
• Multiplying Probabilities: Understand true odds by combining variables—not averaging them.
• Resilience & Repetition: Trying multiple times can dramatically increase your likelihood of success.
• Mindset Shift: Think negative—not to be pessimistic, but to preemptively solve issues.

Notable Moments (Time‑Stamped)

• 00:01 – Introduction of Kyle Austin Young and today’s topic
• 00:59 – Odds vs. mindset in goal-setting
• 04:15 – Kyle’s story of landing a high-stakes job at age 21
• 07:04 – Breakdown of the success diagram framework
• 09:19 – Why averaging leads to false confidence
• 11:57 – Miracle on Ice and the math of multiple attempts
• 14:32 – Getting started with probability thinking
• 15:41 – The four paths to success explained
• 17:47 – Edison and the role of experimentation in resilience
• 19:54 – Where to find Kyle and his book

Quotes

“What’s going to have to go right? And what could go wrong? That’s where your opportunity to change the odds lives.” — Kyle Austin Young

“Success is really about identifying what could derail you and finding creative ways to make those outcomes less likely.” — Kyle Austin Young

Connect with Kyle Austin Young

• Book: Success Is a Numbers Game — available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Penguin Random House
• Website: kyleaustinyoung.com
• LinkedIn: Kyle Austin Young

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.218)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Kyle Austin Young. He's an award winning strategy consultant, speaker and writer who helps leaders, entrepreneurs and high achievers accomplish big, meaningful goals. His work centers on a unique decision-making and goal achievement framework that he calls probability hacking, a method designed to analyze and intentionally improve the odds of success in any pursuit. We're going to talk about his newest book.

Success is a numbers game. Achieve bigger goals by changing the odds. So Kyle, welcome to the show.

Kyle Austin Young (00:37.348)

Thank you for having me. Honored to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.278)

So I'm going to start with the premise that I'm sure you, I won't be the first person to ask this question. I think a lot of times when people talk about goals, they think about hustle or mindset or heck even luck. You are saying it's more about odds. What's different in that shift?

Kyle Austin Young (00:59.15)

Yeah, let me give you sort of an example. Let's say that we've set the goal of training to run a marathon. Let's say that's something that we've decided we want to accomplish and we hire a running coach and she says, I can get you ready in time, but you're gonna have to do three things. I need you to eat, sleep, and train according to some specific regimens that I'm gonna create for you.

John Jantsch (01:02.872)

me

John Jantsch (01:14.829)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (01:16.334)

So let's say that we know that one of these prerequisites is we're to have to train according to some certain parameters. And so we identify some of the things that could go wrong, some of the things that might happen instead of what we want. And maybe we identify bad weather as something that could derail a training regimen. I'm currently preparing for a big wintery snowstorm. Let's say that we identify injury as a potential risk, or maybe we identify that our kids might have a crisis that could overwhelm our schedule. So the question that I like to ask people is,

tell me how wanting to run a marathon is an antidote to any of those threats to our success. How does wanting to run a marathon change the weather? How does wanting to run a marathon prevent injury? How does wanting to run a marathon keep a crisis from happening in our kids' lives? Certainly, we're going to need a measure of commitment and hustle in order to be successful. But ultimately, what we're going to really need is we need some creative solutions to the things that could keep us from getting what we want.

So I believe that we can understand probabilities similar to the way we've traditionally understood matter. It can't be created or destroyed, but it can be transferred and rearranged. The odds of success, the odds that we want for our goal are currently hiding in our potential bad outcomes. When we identify what those things are and what we can do about them, we can tilt the odds in our favor.

John Jantsch (02:30.488)

So it's all about quantum physics. Is that what you're saying? So when you talk about moving matter around, was the first thought I had. Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (02:33.54)

Very little physics in the book. I don't think I've ever taken a physics class.

Kyle Austin Young (02:40.418)

Well, I do think that there's a lot of truth in the idea that a lot of people want to conjure good odds out of thin air. This idea that maybe I can wish myself into a better position. And I don't think that's true. I think that a lot of times when we're pursuing a goal, we're encouraged to think positive. Don't worry about what could go wrong. If it's meant to happen, it'll happen. Just focus on the positive. I encourage people to do the exact opposite. I tell people to think negative. I tell people, for everything that has to go right in order for you to get what you want, identify the potential bad outcomes. Identify the things that could happen instead of what you want.

John Jantsch (02:55.8)

Thank

Kyle Austin Young (03:09.464)

and use your creativity to systematically de-risk your goals.

John Jantsch (03:13.826)

So in your bio, and I know in the book itself, you talk a lot about probability hacking. So let's talk about what that is or how you define

Kyle Austin Young (03:22.916)

Yeah, I define probability hacking as doing exactly what we just did. It starts with getting an idea of what's going to have to go right and then identifying what could go wrong and then looking for creative solutions. I'll tell a different example. You know, when I first graduated from college, I wasn't excited about the entry level positions that I was seeing. I wanted to try for something more ambitious. So I actually applied to become the product development director at a growing health organization. I was 21 years old. If hired, I was going to be managing people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, people with PhDs and master's degrees.

a crazy thing to do, but I got an interview and I wanted to make the most of it. So even at that time, I did what I essentially do now for a living. I created what I call a success diagram. I only needed to get a job offer at that point. That was the only step left, but I looked at what are the potential bad outcomes that could happen instead of me getting that job offer. And so I identified three. And so I'm giving this example. You kind of had the quantum physics concern because there's no numbers here. I'm just going to show you how we can do this at a story level. One of the risks I identified was they might not hire me because of how young I looked.

John Jantsch (04:15.054)

Bye.

Kyle Austin Young (04:21.54)

I might walk in and they take one look and say, he can't lead this team. So one of the very practical things I did to combat that is I just grew a beard. I still have the beard today. It was something that made me look about 10 years older than I was. And I knew that if I could do that, it would maybe take the edge off of that concern a little bit. A second bad outcome that I identified, a potential bad outcome rather, was there might be concerns over my lack of experience, which were valid. I didn't have a deep resume. I had just graduated from college. So what I did was I couldn't lie. I wasn't going to

John Jantsch (04:22.126)

Right.

Kyle Austin Young (04:49.54)

pretend that I had experience I didn't have, but I wanted to show the quality of my thinking. So I actually typed up a plan for how I was going to turn this department around. It was so thick, I had to have it spiral bound. It was a book. And every person I went to and interviewed with, I gave them a copy of it. And the goal was when they would ask me questions about my past, I would just redirect it to be a conversation about the future. What experience do you have with whatever the case might be, product development? Great question. Here's my plan for product development. Let's talk about the vision that I have for this role if I'm given the opportunity.

The third potential bad outcome I identified was maybe they would be concerned that I couldn't really get along with the existing team because there was just such a big generational gap. So I used a strategy that I'm still using today. It's worked really well for me. I asked one of the people in the organization if the product development team had read any books recently as a group. She listed a few titles, I think it was three or four, and I went out and read every single one of them. And what that did is it gave me the ability to have conversations with the team that no other applicant could have. I understood their goals, I understood their jargon, I could make inside jokes.

John Jantsch (05:25.538)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (05:48.56)

There was a group interview where it was me and a bunch of people 20, 30 years older than me with a lot more experience trying to decide who was going to ultimately win the opportunity to lead this department. And one of the books that they read was called The Wuffy Factor. I don't know if you remember that. was a book about how to, you remember the Wuffy? It was about how brands are in social capital. This was close to 15 years ago. And I remember being in that interview and I said, you know, I think this idea that we're discussing could help us get a lot of Wuffy.

John Jantsch (05:57.934)

Right.

I remember saying that, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Austin Young (06:11.632)

And I remember looking around and these other applicants, their eyes are bugging out of their heads. What on earth did he just say? You know, is he feeling, okay, what does he mean? We're going to get a lot of wealthy out of this. But the existing team members, they were all laughing and nodding along. They knew exactly what I was talking about. We were reading the same books. So when all was said and done, I got that job. At 21 years old, I became the product development director for a health organization. It dramatically accelerated my career, but it started with this idea of probability hacking. It started with getting clear on what I wanted and getting clear on what was going to have to go right. Then thinking negatively,

identifying the risks to my success and not resorting to desire as an antidote to uncertainty, but instead using my creativity to solve those problems.

John Jantsch (06:49.006)

So you gave very specific details and steps of what you did, but it sounded, it started to sound a bit like a framework, which I know you have in the book. So were those steps that you gave me a part of that framework? Do you want to outline what that framework is?

Kyle Austin Young (07:04.41)

Sure, I encourage people to start by creating what I call a success diagram. A success diagram is you write down what's the goal, what do I want to accomplish? I do that at the top right of the page. And then to the left, I just try to list out everything that's gonna have to go right in order for me to get what I want. So it might be run a marathon. And what I call critical points, the prerequisites to my success are eat according to the regimen my coach gives me, sleep according to the regimen she gives me, train according to the regimen she gives me. So now I have the path, I have the destination.

And then for each one of those things that has to go right, I try to identify the potential bad outcomes. These aren't just things that could go wrong, they're alternate outcomes to success. Things that would be so significant they would completely derail the goal if any of them were to come true. After I have those mapped out, I try to just assign a level of risk to each of them. Is this a low risk potential bad outcome, a medium risk, a high risk, so they know how to prioritize? And then probability hacking again is using our creativity to try to find solutions to that. If I'm concerned about

you know, inclement weather derailing my training routine, I might need a treadmill indoors or need to find some alternate exercises that can allow me to build my fitness on days when I can't go for a run. If I'm concerned about scheduling issues, something happening at my kid's school, then I might want to train first thing in the morning or I might want to buy an extra pair of running shoes to keep in the car so that I can train at a park if I need to, if my day gets derailed.

John Jantsch (08:20.034)

In a lot of ways, what I'm hearing you describe is, I mean, think there are a lot of people that have mapped out the plan to run the marathon. mean, you can buy books, entire books, will tell you exactly what to do on day one, day two. But what you're saying a lot of people miss is integrating the whole, you know, of life. And I think in a lot of ways, you're really just asking people to step back and you're calling it what could go wrong. But what you're really doing is saying, hey, you have to have a grasp of reality.

Kyle Austin Young (08:31.29)

Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (08:49.764)

I think you do have to have a grasp of reality. I think that when we consider these statistics that are floating around all the time, just how many people fail at their New Year's resolutions, how this vast majority of mergers and acquisitions fail to create lasting value for shareholders, how many new businesses will ultimately fail in the first few years after their existence, we start to recognize that it's because we haven't stopped to consider the things that could go wrong. And I'll demonstrate that with just a little bit of numbers. Let's use that marathon example. There's three things that have to go right. I need to eat, sleep, and train according to a certain regimen.

John Jantsch (08:51.307)

me

John Jantsch (08:57.139)

Mm-hmm. Right.

John Jantsch (09:13.763)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (09:19.14)

Well, let's take some imaginary numbers and try to estimate how likely we are to accomplish each of those three things. Maybe we think it's 70 % across the board. 70 % chance I'll stick with the diet, 70 % chance I'll sleep the way I'm supposed to, 70 % chance I'll train the way I'm supposed to. What a lot of people do is they fall into a trap called averaging. If they feel good about the individual prerequisites, they feel good about the goal as a whole. That's not actually logically sound, it's not mathematically sound. What we have to do is multiply those numbers together to find our overall odds of success.

John Jantsch (09:45.261)

Yes.

Kyle Austin Young (09:47.204)

And if we do that, we find that even though we feel really good about each of these things, 70 % across the board, our overall odds of being ready on race day are only 34%. And that I believe explains a lot of the dysfunction in our world. Why are people failing at goals and wondering, how did this not go the way that I expected it to? I felt good about each individual step. Well, you averaged in your head. You didn't take the time to understand what your overall odds were. And because of that, maybe you didn't pay as much attention to your opportunity to change your odds as you could have. Maybe you didn't get that grasp on reality exactly like what you said.

John Jantsch (10:14.926)

Thank

Kyle Austin Young (10:16.27)

and try to the odds in your favor.

John Jantsch (10:18.766)

Is there any, do you ever run the risk or do you find that people might, like if I sat down thought, oh, my odds of actually being prepared on race day is only in the 30 % range, is there any chance that I say, why bother?

Kyle Austin Young (10:32.538)

There could be, but if we're taking the time to think negative and identify the bad outcomes that are dragging those odds down, then we can use our creativity and see if we can't change those numbers, at least in how we understand them, to look like something that's more optimistic. You if we are using our creativity to address the risk of bad weather when we need to train, or address the risk of injury, or address the risk of our schedule being sabotaged, then we can ultimately run the numbers again. And maybe by the time we're done optimizing this plan,

John Jantsch (10:33.902)

Yeah

Kyle Austin Young (10:59.812)

we end up feeling like it's 90 % across the board. That's still not a 90 % chance of success, but I believe it's in the 70s. It's a lot better.

John Jantsch (11:05.166)

Yeah. So, so do you find that you have to help people reframe this idea of failure even?

Kyle Austin Young (11:14.426)

Give me an example of what you mean by that.

John Jantsch (11:16.844)

Well, I mean, in some ways you're, as I listened to you talk about the steps, you're, you're, you're not saying that's failures of possibility, but that it's part of the equation. and a lot of people, you know, would have, I think some people would, would struggle with that idea. I, I'm not saying what you're talking about doesn't make sense, but just the mindset that a lot of people have that might be hard to overcome.

Kyle Austin Young (11:41.37)

Sure.

Absolutely. Failure is going to be part of the equation. One of the things that I encourage people to consider in the book is the power of multiple attempts. If you're chasing a goal that's really unlikely, often one of the most reliable ways to ultimately succeed is to try more than one time. I tell the story of the miracle on ice in the first chapter of the book. I got to interview Jack O'Callaghan who played on that 1980 hockey team that beat the Soviet Union. And a lot of people consider that a miracle. It's been called the greatest sporting event of the 20th century, I believe, by Sports Illustrated.

John Jantsch (11:57.518)

Right.

Kyle Austin Young (12:14.028)

And as an individual event, it was really miraculous. But when you recognize that over the course of this Olympic rivalry, the United States played the Soviets nine times and won two, that's not that remarkable. Winning two times out of nine isn't unheard of. So was it surprising that they won the game they won? Sure. But the odds told us that we would expect them to win some games. And that's ultimately what they did. And what's interesting is when I interviewed Jack, he told me that in the locker room before they went out to take the ice for that game,

John Jantsch (12:23.842)

Mm-hmm. Right.

John Jantsch (12:35.18)

Yeah.

Kyle Austin Young (12:42.244)

Coach Herb Brooks gives this speech and there's a movie about it and the movie has some quotes that are really powerful. What Jack told me is he said he doesn't remember the exact words that were spoken. But he says he remembers that when he left the locker room, they're trudging down to take the ice. He says he remembers leaving with the idea that his coach believed if we played them 10 times, they might beat us nine times, but they're not going to beat us tonight. And so there was an expectation that failure was going to be a part of that, but they had an opportunity for tonight to be the exception. And ultimately it was.

John Jantsch (13:10.446)

I remember vividly watching that in my dorm room in college. does this, like a marathon I would call a long-term goal, particularly for somebody who hasn't run one, right? They should start early, right? Can this be applied to short-term decisions as well?

Kyle Austin Young (13:14.956)

Amazing. I missed it by a few years, but I'm jealous.

Kyle Austin Young (13:24.666)

Sure. Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (13:33.166)

absolutely. You know, in the context of me trying to get that job, I just did this as I headed into an interview. It was going to all take place in a day. When we have something that needs to go right, one of the best things we can do to help it go right is think about what could go wrong. Ultimately, that's what's dragging our probability down. If you think about flipping a coin, let's say you need it to land on heads, you have a 50 % chance of success. Why? Why don't you have a 100 % chance of success? Well, because it might land on tails, and there's a 50 % chance of that happening. Now, I don't know how to rig a coin to make it...

do what I want it to do. But in life, a lot of times we can rig it or we can re-rig it in our favor. We can try to take the risk out of the bad outcomes, bring those odds over to our side.

John Jantsch (14:11.448)

So if somebody hasn't thought this way, what's kind some of the first things you try to help people? And again, I don't know if you actually consult on this or teach courses on this as well, but what are some of the first things you try to do to get people to start putting this way of thinking? Because I think a lot of times these things are just mindset. So what do you get them to start thinking this way? What are some of the first things?

Kyle Austin Young (14:32.784)

Well, in the book, I tell people that I think there are four paths to success. One of them is some people just get lucky. I tell the story of Norma Jean Doherty. She's working at an aviation munitions factory in the war, and a photographer comes to take pictures for a military magazine to inspire the troops. He notices Norma Jean, thinks she's really beautiful, says, can I take some pictures for you for magazines that don't have anything to do with the military? And she said, sure. She ultimately finds a lot of success as a model and then goes on to star as an actress under the name Marilyn Monroe, has just this enormously successful career.

That is certainly a success story. Is it a success story we should reverse engineer though? If I meet a young woman who's coming to me for training or coaching rather, can you tell me what I can do to become a successful Hollywood star? Would I say, well, the first thing you need to do is get a job at an aviation munitions factory and hope that someday a military photographer stops by and notices how pretty you are and says, can I take some pictures of you? No, that probably wouldn't be a very reliable path to success. So some people succeed through luck. They succeed even though the odds are bad, simply because we expect unlikely events to happen sometimes.

Some people succeed, they don't beat the odds, but they play them. We think about entrepreneurs, there are some really famous examples of people who heard that nine out of 10 businesses fail, and that was actually what inspired them to start 10 businesses or 15 businesses, was the belief that they were going to experience those predicted failures, but they would also experience the predicted successes. Some people succeed because they have advantages, they have areas of tremendous strength in their lives, and so they try to lean into those goals.

John Jantsch (15:41.314)

you

Kyle Austin Young (15:54.084)

That can often be something that's really wise for us is asking the question, what are some goals that are pretty high probability goals for me right now that might bring bigger accomplishments within reach? One of the goals that I had for years was ultimately getting a book deal and hopefully getting a big advance and being able to publish that to a mass audience with a major publisher. At the time when I set that goal, it wasn't really realistic for me, but I was able to pursue smaller goals that changed my odds. One of them was writing for major publications.

John Jantsch (16:01.42)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (16:21.04)

As you mentioned, I've written for sites like HBR, Fast Company, Psychology Today. But one of my favorite things and one of the reasons I was so excited to have the opportunity to come on is it's an exciting full circle moment for me. When I first decided that I was going to try to write for some of these respected publications, get my voice out there and ultimately position myself for things like a book deal, the first site that took me was the Duct Tape Marketing Blog. It was in 2015. I remember I was in my grandmother's house at the time. They were having a garage sale. I was helping out when I got the response. I couldn't even tell you where I was sitting.

John Jantsch (16:31.63)

You

John Jantsch (16:42.292)

the

Kyle Austin Young (16:49.742)

and it was such an exciting thing. So it's an honor to be with you here today. So that's the third path of success is people making the most of areas where they have good odds. The fourth path is probability hacking, doing everything you can to tilt the odds in your favor.

John Jantsch (16:50.286)

you

John Jantsch (17:01.006)

So, you know, I was going to ask you about resilience. And then you kind of threw in that story about the entrepreneurs starting 10 businesses, but what, what connection do you think with the framework and just the whole mindset of resilience? What does it play?

Kyle Austin Young (17:17.774)

Well, it's incredibly important if you're going to especially be pursuing the path of repeated attempts. In the book, I tell the story of Thomas Edison. He's in a race to try to get valuable patents surrounding the incandescent lamp. If he can get them, it'll be something that's transformational for his career. And what this race came down to is he and these other people were all trying to find a practical filament. They needed something that could glow hot enough to emit light without catching on fire and without snuffing out really quickly to the point where it wasn't worth it. What Edison did that was different than these other people...

John Jantsch (17:23.0)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:29.709)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (17:47.376)

is he actually experimented with 6,000 different plant materials to find the one that worked best. He didn't try to divine the right answer. He didn't try to guess the right answer. The answer turned out to be, in his context, carbonized bamboo. And I don't know about you. That would not have been my first guess. If you said, what are we going to use as a filament? I would have said, I bet it's carbonized bamboo. That's not where I would have started. It's not where he started either. It took 6,000 attempts. But ultimately, he had a clear definition of success. He had a stopwatch, so to speak. And he was able to run more experiments than anyone else. And because of that,

John Jantsch (17:54.144)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:04.718)

the

Kyle Austin Young (18:15.364)

he found these unlikely answers. so resilience is a big part of that. Some of it comes from, we need to be confident that there is going to be a best answer out there. And in his case, it wasn't, you know, it was comparative. He could be confident that one option out of the 6,000 would be the best out of the 6,000. And he liked his chance of creating a great product with a wider net when it came to ultimately trying to find the best filament than he did with somebody who's only trying two or three things.

John Jantsch (18:27.982)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (18:41.526)

Yeah, and there's obviously, I don't know that it's all true, but you hear these stories that people would ask him, gosh, aren't you tired of failing so much? He said, no, I just have one more thing out of the way that I know is not the answer.

Kyle Austin Young (18:55.116)

He has a quote attributed to him that's, to have a great idea, have a lot of them. And I think it's that exact same mentality. It's not about being the smartest person in the room necessarily. A lot of times it's being the most generative. It's being the person who's the most prolific and who ultimately uncovers that unlikely good idea.

John Jantsch (18:58.936)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:12.396)

Yeah. And, and, you know, there's, there's certainly a mentality out there. People want to, you know, take the easy path, get rich quick, you know, be famous, all the things that, people aspire to. And I don't, you know, the, people that really get there, you know, they just show up and do the work every day for a long time. Sometimes.

Kyle Austin Young (19:29.614)

Well, it's one of the dangers of reverse engineering, like I mentioned, you know, the Marilyn Monroe story, we kind of chuckle at that, but I think we're doing similar things in our daily lives. We'll find somebody who started a successful organization and turns out he drives a blue convertible. So I should buy a blue convertible because clearly that's got to be playing a role in his success. What if he just got lucky? I'm not saying that they did, but we need to be really careful about what we reverse engineer because just because someone is seeing good results doesn't mean that they got there through good decisions.

John Jantsch (19:31.874)

Yeah, yeah.

Right? Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:46.924)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:54.646)

Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of times we miss the 10 years before, before they blew up, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, Kyle, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you'd invite people to find out more about your work and to perhaps pick up success is a numbers game.

Kyle Austin Young (19:58.778)

Sure, yeah, that kind of quote that most overnight successes are 20 years in the making, sure.

Kyle Austin Young (20:14.0)

You can get a copy of the book pretty much anywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, directly on the Penguin Random House website. Be honored if you did that. If you want to connect with me personally, I think we'll probably put my website in the show notes, just kyleaustinyoung.com. But what I'd prefer you do, honestly, this was something that was just kind of an unexpected blessing of this journey, is I heard someone who was encouraging people to find them on LinkedIn, and I thought, that's a strange thing to do. I'll throw that idea out too. And that was many interviews ago, but it's turned into one of just the best parts of this, is pretty much every day I wake up and someone has

John Jantsch (20:25.134)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (20:43.118)

sent me a message saying, I heard you here, I heard you there, can I ask you a question? It's led to some really engaging conversations that I've really enjoyed, some fun opportunities for collaboration for me. So feel free to find me, Kyle Austin Young on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you.

John Jantsch (20:45.1)

Okay.

John Jantsch (20:56.618)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll maybe we'll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Kyle Austin Young (21:02.16)

That'd be great. Thanks.

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Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch and Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models, discuss why traditional marketing feels chaotic and how installing a structured marketing operating system can drive clarity, consistency, accountability, and long‑term growth. Nay breaks down the seven core components of the system—from strategy and campaign design to AI integration, measurement, meeting rhythms, and optimization. They also explore the differences between this system-based approach and typical agency engagements, practical ways teams can implement these ideas, and how this structure increases business equity.

Guest Bio

Sara Nay is the Chief Executive Officer of Duct Tape Marketing, a leading authority in systematic marketing approaches for small and mid-sized businesses. She is also the author of Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models, a book focused on rethinking how businesses build and scale marketing with strategy, systems, and measurement. With deep experience in marketing operations and strategic growth, Sara helps organizations transform chaotic marketing into predictable, measurable engines of growth.

Key Takeaways

• Marketing Feels Like a Moving Target Because Tactics Proliferate
  Traditional marketing often jumps from tool to tool without strategy, creating confusion rather than results.
• A Marketing Operating System Provides Structure
  Like financial or business operating systems, a marketing OS installs strategy, processes, scorecards, and rhythms that make marketing predictable and accountable.
• Seven Core Components of the Marketing Operating System
  • Strategy First Core
  • Campaign Builder
  • Workstream Engine
  • AI Marketing Hub
  • Scorecard & Signals Dashboard
  • Momentum Meeting
  • Quarterly Optimization
• Strategy Before Tactics Is Non-Negotiable
  Creating a differentiated strategy rooted in ideal clients and core messaging informs everything that follows.
• AI Enhances People, It Doesn’t Replace Strategy
  AI tools are most effective when informed by strategy and integrated into documented processes.
• Measurement and Culture Shift Drive Accountability
  Dashboards and structured meetings cultivate team ownership and goal alignment.
• System Equals Equity
  Marketing systems not only improve performance but also increase the value of the business.

Time‑Stamped Great Moments

• 00:01 – Introduction to Today’s Topic
• 03:05 – Traditional Agencies vs. a Marketing Operating System
• 05:23 – Strategy First Core Explained
• 08:25 – Campaign Builder: From Strategy to Action
• 09:15 – Workstream Engine: Process, Roles, and SOPs
• 12:13 – AI Marketing Hub: Step Four
• 15:02 – Scorecard & Signals Dashboard
• 17:10 – Momentum Meetings: Rhythm and Accountability
• 20:04 – Quarterly Optimization: Bigger Picture Learning
• 22:32 – Engagement Models With Duct Tape Marketing
• 25:26 – How to Book a Call: Clear Next Step

Quotes Worth Sharing

“Marketing feels like a moving target because there are just more tactics now — strategy gets lost in the noise.”

“Strategy shouldn’t sit in a Google Drive folder; it should drive action and measurable outcomes.”

“If you don’t have a good process in place, it doesn’t matter if you use AI to replace a crappy process.”

“Momentum meetings aren’t about tasks completed — they’re about how those activities moved the needle toward goals.”

“A marketing operating system increases the value in your business and solves short‑term pains too.”

Call to Action

If this episode resonated with you and you want to explore building or optimizing a marketing operating system for your business, book a conversation with Sara here.

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Curious Leaders Build Stronger, Smarter Teams

Curious Leaders Build Stronger, Smarter Teams written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:
 

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Dr. Debra Clary, a leadership strategist, narrative scientist, and author of The Curiosity Curve: A Leader’s Guide to Growth and Transformation Through Bold Questions. With more than 30 years of experience across Fortune 50 companies, Debra shares her insights into how cultivating curiosity can drive performance, culture, and innovation at every level of leadership.

About Dr. Debra Clary

Dr. Debra Clary is a narrative scientist, executive coach, and leadership strategist with decades of experience at top organizations including Coca-Cola, Jack Daniels, and Humana. She holds a doctorate in Leadership and Organization Development and is the author of The Curiosity Curve. She is the founder of the Curiosity Curve Assessment and a leading voice on curiosity-driven leadership. Visit her at DebraClary.com.

Key Takeaways

• Curiosity in leadership is measurable and can be developed over time.
• The most effective leaders ask bold, open-ended questions instead of providing answers.
• Curiosity drives engagement and productivity—especially among millennials.
• Leadership that promotes curiosity helps organizations adapt, innovate, and thrive.
• Culture change starts at the top—curious leaders model the behavior they want to see.

Great Moments & Timestamps

• 00:00 – Intro and Dr. Clary’s corporate leadership background
• 01:14 – How stand-up comedy shaped her speaking and leadership
• 03:01 – Why adults ask fewer questions than toddlers
• 04:06 – MIT research linking curiosity to team performance
• 07:05 – Restructuring meetings to foster curiosity
• 12:34 – Millennials’ disengagement and how curiosity solves it
• 14:21 – One question that changed a major executive decision
• 16:53 – What sparked her deep research into curiosity
• 19:11 – Practical curiosity-building habits for leaders

Notable Quotes

“Leadership is about playing the long game, not the short game.” – Dr. Debra Clary

“Curiosity is not just a mindset—it’s a muscle that can be measured, taught, and strengthened.” – Dr. Debra Clary

Resources & Links

• DebraClary.com
• The Curiosity Curve on Amazon

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dr. Debra Clary. She's a leadership strategist, narrative scientist, researcher, and executive coach with more than three decades of experience leading and transforming organizations, especially fortune 50 companies, including Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniels, and Humana. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organization development from the George Washington university. And we're going to talk about her latest book.

the curiosity curve of leaders guide to growth and transformation through bold questions. So Deborah, welcome to the show.

Debra Clary (00:37.905)

Thank you, John, for having me.

John Jantsch (00:39.906)

I love to explore people's words and people's bios. So what does a narrative scientist do?

Debra Clary (00:46.461)

Storyteller. You like it?

John Jantsch (00:47.822)

Well, I do, but where's the science in that?

Debra Clary (00:55.916)

Well, there's science in telling a story. There's actually a formula on how you're able to connect with people.

John Jantsch (01:04.98)

So you've had a, I only read a bit of your bio, but did I see somewhere that you were an aspiring standup comedian?

Debra Clary (01:14.392)

I actually started right out of school being a standup comic and my father came to one of my shows and after the show he said, well, I want to talk to you about it. And I thought, well, he's going to say, look, you're in business school, why are you doing this? And he said to me, I love you, but you're not that funny.

John Jantsch (01:15.647)

You

John Jantsch (01:32.312)

Alright.

John Jantsch (01:38.183)

Debra Clary (01:39.421)

which was true. But it was great training ground for to be able to get on my feet and to talk to large audiences.

John Jantsch (01:47.862)

Yeah, I picked up on that because I there seemed to be a bit of a trend in the speaker world in the consultant world of doing like improv and stand up. And so I wonder if there's really a real tie to that actually being a great training skill instead of just something fun to do.

Debra Clary (01:58.637)

Yes.

Debra Clary (02:05.393)

Absolutely. You probably have heard of Second City out of Chicago, right? Well, Second City actually has a division that goes into organizations and teaches leaders how to think on your feet, how to build other people up. And when I was at my last role, we brought them in several times to help us.

John Jantsch (02:09.696)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (02:15.735)

yeah, I've seen that.

John Jantsch (02:24.91)

Yeah, think like half of Saturday Night Live's cast comes out Second City. Yeah. So let's get to the book. Curiosity is a word that actually got my attention because I've often said that that's my superpower is that what's really kept me in the game. I've been doing this for 30 years. So much has changed, all this new technology. And I always tell people, I'm just always curious about how stuff works.

Debra Clary (02:31.72)

Yeah, it's a great training ground.

John Jantsch (02:53.196)

You talk about it as more of a mindset rather than necessarily something we're just born with. Would that be fair to say?

Debra Clary (03:01.483)

Well, it's actually both in the sense that we come into the world knowing nothing other than we're hungry or we're cold. And as toddlers, we ask 298 questions a day. This is based on work by neuroscience out of London. But by the time we're adults, we might ask five questions a day. And that might be, where are we going to dinner? Are we eating out? Are we eating in? Those types of things. And the reason is that we are taught to be

in curious. We are taught that children are to be seen and not heard. You know, don't open Pandora's box, curiosity killed the cat, all of those things that we're taught to be in curious. And then we go into the university and we get a degree and then we come out and we're working in that field. And then we're being paid for that expertise. And by the way, we have time constraints. And so all of those things add into like what happened to us.

John Jantsch (03:55.725)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (03:59.756)

Yeah, yeah. Well, so if you're going to call it a skill, is it measurable?

Debra Clary (04:06.059)

Yes. So when we originally did our research, I had commissioned a team of researchers out of MIT to study one thing for me. And that was, what is the relatedness between leadership performance and curiosity? And they said, well, we're going to have to go deeper on that. I said, let's start with that hypothesis. And when they came back and said, there's a direct correlation between a leader's level of curiosity and the performance of their team.

Then we started going deeper and we learned that curiosity can be learned, it can be taught. And so we created the curiosity curve assessment. So we can actually measure the current state of an individual, a team or an organization's level of curiosity, because we know it can be improved.

John Jantsch (04:54.776)

So one of the things, especially with leaders, even worse the higher you go in leadership, is that there tends to be a mindset, not all, but with some of like, I have to have all the answers. That's why I'm here, right? They look to me to have all the answers, right or wrong. I think they take that approach. Is that one of the biggest hurdles to at least acting curious?

Debra Clary (05:20.895)

Yes. So it's an outdated model where leaders have to have all the answers. You know, most leaders arrive there because they've probably come out of those roles and they know, they know what to, you know, they become an expert in that, but now they're in a leadership role. And if we, when, somebody comes in and has a problem, we are prone to tell them what to do, right? That's efficient. And by the way, we need to have all the answers, but the

John Jantsch (05:46.478)

Right, yep.

Debra Clary (05:50.627)

best leaders are those that focus on the individual and not the problem. And so you're asking them a series of questions that leads them to understanding how they can solve it on their own. You're building their confidence and you're building their critical thinking skills. So leadership is about playing the long game, not the short game.

John Jantsch (06:09.836)

Yeah, I mean, the phrase that comes to mind to me is instead of just giving people to fish, right? You're going to teach them to fish by just stepping back and saying, I don't know, what would you do? I mean, can you start that simple?

Debra Clary (06:15.788)

Yeah, that's it.

Debra Clary (06:23.67)

Well, I probably would say something like, well, tell me what you've been thinking about, right? And get them to have a conversation. And then things like, are there other problems that are similar to this that you've solved and what worked in that situation, right? Is helping them dig deeper and understanding that they can solve it or together you can solve it. But I'm not going to give you the answer because I don't have all the answers.

John Jantsch (06:28.546)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:50.062)

Do you have or do you at least, obviously every business, every situation is maybe a little different, but particularly in kind of a like status type of meeting, do you have a formula for how you should restructure that?

Debra Clary (07:05.142)

Yeah, and I actually write about that in my book, John. And it's one about, you you set the agenda. And when you get your team together, you say, these are the things we're going to cover. Is there anything that's not on here that we want to make sure we cover? So you're leaving it open to what else needs to happen. The other thing is, you in those meetings, encourage people to ask questions and encourage people to challenge what's been said. Like get really comfortable with being challenged.

That's when you have a culture of curiosity.

John Jantsch (07:38.742)

I mean, does it kind of change, not just change the way that the meeting goes and the way that people act, but does it have the potential to actually change the entire culture at an organization?

Debra Clary (07:51.203)

Absolutely, absolutely. So culture and leadership is synonymous. So goes the leader, so goes the culture. And so the work that I do is mostly around the senior executives, know, the C-suite, because I recognize that when you make change at the top, then you can see greater change throughout the organization. So if you want a curious culture, the C-suite needs to be modeling it.

John Jantsch (08:04.91)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:10.958)

Sure, right.

John Jantsch (08:17.57)

What are some of the misconceptions? I'm sure that curiosity to some people sounds like a pretty soft subject. So what are some of the things you have to really fight against when you say, this is really the secret?

Debra Clary (08:30.816)

Yeah, so when I started that way as being skeptical myself, I had the hypothesis that curiosity might be missing in the workplace, but it was a hypothesis. And as a scientist, I need data. So I brought the data together. when I'm talking with CEOs, someone has recommended me to a CEO and same thing like curiosity, come on. And then I say, I thought the same thing, you know, and having spent four decades navigating complex systems,

John Jantsch (08:34.936)

Okay. Yeah.

Debra Clary (08:59.446)

Yeah, I kind of have that doubt too, but now we have the data. And so I take them through the data and then you can start to see like their eyes are lighting up and they're like, they're starting to make connections. So for me, you know, I move forward with data.

John Jantsch (09:18.35)

So I find that curiosity takes empathy, takes self-awareness, takes compassion. And a lot, I'm sure you also have leaders like, don't have time for that.

Debra Clary (09:18.903)

Mm.

Debra Clary (09:32.298)

Absolutely. And I would add something to your list of attributes. There is one around forgiveness. You know, when I'm asking myself questions and it's, some might start off like, wow, you should have known differently or you should have done something different. And then I say forgiveness and I'll say, okay, what would I do now? Like what's my next move in order to either correct it or to build on something.

John Jantsch (09:33.038)

John Jantsch (09:54.68)

So, do you have a path for, because I suspect that it's going to be habit forming too, right? I mean, it has to just almost be a reflex in certain situations, start curious, right? So, is there a training path that, you know, in the next 30 days, if you do these things, you know, you'll become, it'll become more habit forming?

Debra Clary (10:17.217)

Yeah, absolutely. even curiosity is a muscle. We all have it, but we've stopped using it. Maybe like our abdomen, you know, our stomach muscles there, we've, we've stopped using them and you can get them back. so when I'm working with executive teams, I start with the curiosity assessment. I like to know where, what's our starting point, right? And so there are four factors that we measure on the curiosity curve. And when we get an understanding of

at the individual level, but at the team level, that's when we can make real progress. But it does start with the intention of we want a culture of curiosity because we know it drives performance. So we're anchoring around performance and the intention of creating this type of culture.

John Jantsch (11:06.488)

So are there a handful of bold questions that every leader should be asking their teams right now? I mean, are there any specific examples?

Debra Clary (11:17.945)

Yeah, you know, it certainly depends on the situation, but for a generic reason, I love questions that are like, what's not being said, right? What might we be missing here? Does anyone have a different point of view? You know, really creating an environment where people know I'm asking questions because your opinion matters. Your point of view matters to me.

John Jantsch (11:43.599)

Of course, the other end of that though is you have to be willing to accept that the opinion might actually be good, bad, or indifferent. You have to actually be open to not just encouraging people to make suggestions, but actually seriously considering them and maybe even taking action.

Debra Clary (11:51.115)

Absolutely.

Debra Clary (12:00.715)

Absolutely. In the best environments I've been in, when somebody brings up something, it might not be quite right, but then somebody builds on it and somebody else builds on it, just like an improv. And then you've now have the collective thinking of that team. That's the beauty of someone coming up with something and you might challenge it, you might build on it, but definitely you're creating the culture of curiosity.

John Jantsch (12:09.9)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (12:25.548)

Yeah, and we've probably all been in situations where leader, you know, is not open to those. so everybody just everybody just shuts up, right? It's like, bother? I've got a great idea, but why bother? Right.

Debra Clary (12:34.617)

That's right. Absolutely. Well, you might be familiar with last year, Gallup put out their engagement report in the history of measuring engagement. They've never seen it so low. And particularly the millennials who make up 35 % of the workforce and they're from the age of 29 to 40, they're 65 % disengaged.

John Jantsch (12:46.705)

wow.

Debra Clary (12:57.293)

Now, why is this a problem? Well, the obvious one is because they're not being productive. But the another one is this is the group of people that we would be developing to go into senior roles in the next decade. And they're signaling to us, we're not interested. So we brought together a group of millennials to do a focus group because we wanted to get underneath what's going on. And, you know, the scientists asked it in a better way than I'm going to do it. But I like, what's your source of unhappiness?

John Jantsch (13:25.518)

Mm-hmm.

Debra Clary (13:26.253)

what they said surprised us. They said, my leader doesn't know me and doesn't care to know me. And so the follow-up questions were like, they don't know you're like what you do personally, or like you have a dog or you like to run marathons. They go, no, no, they don't know what I can contribute to the problem, know, solving the problem. I have most of the information, but I'm least consulted. Now that can be solved by leaders shifting the way in which they interact with their teams.

John Jantsch (13:32.75)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:50.529)

Mm-hmm.

Debra Clary (13:56.258)

It's about asking questions of what do you think we should do? Do you have any experience that's parallel to solving this problem? I would love to hear what you have to say.

John Jantsch (13:56.364)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:07.34)

So I'm curious in your doing this work, has there been, of course, everybody wants the home run, right? Has there been like a single question that changed the outcome of an initiative that you've been a part

Debra Clary (14:21.461)

It was in an executive meeting and the organization, I was a part of this organization and they were moving into a new territory, a new discipline, if you will. So they were in an insurance company that now was going into actually delivering care. And the people that were in that room were used to the insurance company, a transactional company.

And we had one individual that was starting up this division who came from that discipline and they were, they were arguing about the way in which it could get done. And I realized they weren't even using the same definition for what it meant. So I pause and I said, everyone, let's take a second here. know, Brian, can you describe, define what your, what is the meaning of that word? And then I did for the other individual, they weren't even talking about the same thing.

Now it's just each of them were trying to present their case. So while, know, why we needed to invest in this or why we needed to pull back on this. And I realized we're not even trying to solve the same problem. That was an, that was an, an opener. And that, you know, that comes for me, just I'm listening to what they're saying and realizing they're not, they're not trying to solve the same problem.

John Jantsch (15:27.862)

You

John Jantsch (15:38.886)

Sometimes being the outsider is the only way you can actually hear that because you're like, don't know what you guys are talking about. So let's flip that around then. Can you share maybe a moment when a lack of curiosity was clearly causing setbacks?

Debra Clary (15:46.349)

Yeah, absolutely.

Debra Clary (15:58.654)

And we see that every day in organizations in the sense that, you know, leaders feel, mean, first off, have, you know, huge revenue goals to hear clear objectives to hit, and they have time constraints on that. And what I see playing in and out every day is that leaders just go to do directing and not exploring.

John Jantsch (16:00.568)

Gosh.

Debra Clary (16:25.195)

and because they think it's the most efficient way. And it probably is efficient in the short term, but not in the long term, right? And what happens is people begin to shut down and no longer offer opinions because it doesn't matter anyway.

John Jantsch (16:41.528)

So was there a moment for you, Mayer, that you could describe where you decided it's so clear curiosity is the missing piece? mean, was it the data that kind of flipped the switch for you?

Debra Clary (16:53.689)

Well, my hypothesis started in it was in a two week time period, three things happened to me that I think was like just a message coming to me to explore this. One was I was in Rome and I was sitting next to an Italian man and he said, you're American. I go, yeah. He said, I got the best American joke for you. What do you get when you ask an American a question? You get an answer.

John Jantsch (17:15.756)

Ha ha.

Debra Clary (17:20.173)

Right now I was a polite American. nodded, but I didn't get the joke. Right. Then I went back to work. sitting next to my CEO in the boardroom and he is watching and listening to someone present and he quietly says to me, do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And at the end of that week, Gallup released their report around low engagement. And it was there that I just became.

John Jantsch (17:20.366)

You

Debra Clary (17:45.186)

you know, profoundly sad, but also clearer on, I think I want to go do more research on curiosity. And so I did a little bit of literature search, and then I realized there's not enough data for me to actually go out into the world and tell people this is the greatest thing. This is, this will solve all your problems. And that's where it came from. He is just in that short window of hearing what's missing in America or what's missing in organizations.

John Jantsch (18:13.144)

So I'm curious, is there a question that you maybe wake up and ask yourself every day that sort of starts your curiosity journey?

Debra Clary (18:23.437)

Well, I start off with this, just this notion of, you know, abundance flows to me, like great things are going to happen to me. I start off with that mindset because when I wake up, I'm typically negative. Something has hit me or something from yesterday and I have to say to myself, no, I have the mindset of, have this amazing opportunity to share with people the power of curiosity. And so that's how I start my day with the mindset of I may have an opportunity to impact others.

John Jantsch (18:54.114)

So talking to leaders, is there a practice again? Because I'm sure what happens to a lot of them is you get going, you got this meeting, you're just like the pace picks up all day long. Is there any kind of curiosity practice that every leader could adopt or should adopt that would really get them in the right frame of mind?

Debra Clary (19:11.245)

Yeah, it's about, I have a couple of suggestions. One is, know, listen more than you talk. So that means you're asking good questions and then you're the key is you're listening. The next thing is, is when somebody asks you a question, say, I don't know, or I might know, but I'd love to have a conversation about it in the sense of what you're inviting people in.

You're saying I'm vulnerable, I don't have all the answers, but together maybe we can explore this. And that's where I begin with my leadership and when I'm working with my teams and then the teams that are in organizations.

John Jantsch (19:51.116)

Awesome. And the curiosity curve assessment is, I assume, is found on your website. And anybody can take that? Yeah.

Debra Clary (19:57.422)

You can find it on my website, as well as you can find it in my book, which is found on amazon.com. It's called the curiosity curve.

John Jantsch (20:05.902)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there any where else you'd invite people to connect with you or again, find out more about the resources you have to offer? I think it's just deborahclary.com. Is that right?

Debra Clary (20:18.925)

DebraClary.com and on my website I have multiple articles that have been published in the last year all around the topic of curiosity and how curiosity will save us.

John Jantsch (20:28.942)

Well, there's a banner for you. Again, Deborah, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Debra Clary (20:36.929)

All right, thank you, John.

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AI and the Future of Marketing: Strategy, Human Value, and the CMO Role

AI and the Future of Marketing: Strategy, Human Value, and the CMO Role written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode: 

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch is joined by Peter Benei, marketing leader and co‑founder of AI Ready CMO. They explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping marketing beyond tools, why strategic thinking and human judgment will matter more than ever, and how marketers and organizations need to adapt. Peter shares his grounded perspective on what AI will replace, what it won’t, and how roles like CMO are evolving in an AI‑driven landscape.

Guest Bio

Peter Benei is a seasoned marketing strategist with over 20 years of experience serving as CMO for tech scale‑ups and startups. He co‑founded AI Ready CMO, a platform and newsletter helping marketing leaders adopt AI through strategic frameworks, case studies, and community learning. His approach focuses on practical adoption of AI, emphasizing strategy and human judgment over hype.

Key Takeaways

• AI Is Not Just Another Tool: AI’s impact is broader than previous marketing innovations—it changes operational workflows and organizational models.
• What AI Will Change and What It Won’t: Content production will be automated, but human oversight, taste, and strategic judgment remain crucial.
• Evolving Roles: CMOs will function as orchestrators of AI-enhanced workflows. Routine content roles may be replaced or reshaped.
• Education in the AI Era: Liberal arts degrees and soft skills could gain renewed value for critical thinking and creativity.
• Tool Consolidation: Major platforms like Google and Microsoft may absorb many single-purpose AI tools. Custom tool-building is easier than ever.

Great Moments (Timestamped)

• 00:38 — AI vs Past Marketing Innovations
• 03:08 — Strategic vs Hype‑Driven AI Adoption
• 06:50 — What Will Change in Marketing Production
• 08:56 — Human Skills That Remain Vital
• 11:18 — New Resource Requirements in Marketing
• 12:17 — Hiring for Judgment and Taste
• 17:22 — The CMO of the Future
• 20:04 — Consolidation of AI Tools
• 22:45 — Example: AI‑Built Content Repurposing App

Inspiring Quotes

“Production of marketing materials will either be fully automated or come with a minimal barrier to entry.”

“Human in the loop—our judgment, empathy, and taste—will matter for a couple of years at least.”

“A CMO’s role is becoming more like an orchestrator of workflows where people work together with AI.”

“Within a year or two, most standalone AI tools will be extinct or absorbed into major platforms.”

Resources

Subscribe to the daily newsletter at AIReadyCMO.com for actionable insights on AI in marketing.

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Duct Tape Marketing Strategy First Certification: For consultants, agencies, and fractional CMOs ready to lead with strategy.
Join our 3-day live Duct Tape Marketing Certification and license the proven Strategy First system, tools, and frameworks used for 30 years.
Get 1:1 support and join a community of serious marketers.
Learn more at dtm.world/certify

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.442)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Peter Benei. He is a marketing leader and strategist with 20 plus years of experience as a CMO for tech scale-ups and startups. He co-founded AI Ready CMO, a platform and newsletter focused on helping marketing leaders adopt AI strategically, not just tool by tool, but through frameworks, case studies and community learning.

Peter Benei (00:01.57)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (00:30.39)

So guess what we're going to talk about today? AI. Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Benei (00:34.634)

Welcome and thanks for inviting me.

John Jantsch (00:38.028)

So given that you and I were just talking off air, you know, I've got 30 plus years, you've got 20 plus years, how in your mind has, does AI or the advent of AI different than say, websites and social media and search, you know, that kind of came along as tool? Would you say that it's just another flavor or is it fundamentally different?

Peter Benei (00:43.341)

Yeah.

Peter Benei (01:04.052)

both, I guess. I had my own agency as well. Jesus, 20 years ago. and it was a social media agency. So at that time it was like, so Facebook business pages just got introduced and everyone was talking about the clue train manifesto markets are conversations and you know, this kind of stuff, social media, web two. I don't know if you're familiar with the market or Brian Solis.

John Jantsch (01:05.879)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:19.584)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:24.384)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Benei (01:33.262)

Yeah, he was just about talking about the conversational prism and I don't know. So everyone was talking about like, know, social media is a thing. And we had this agency, which was a social media agency. But again, that was a new thing. I don't really think that the whole AI, whatever it is right now is...

John Jantsch (01:33.432)

Of course, yeah, Brian's been on the show.

Peter Benei (02:02.4)

is new in a sense of tools and technology for marketers. These are just things that we need to learn and adapt to in general sense, like we did for, I don't know, Facebook business pages at that time or, I don't know, Squarespace websites. you can drag and drop websites again now. That's interesting. Although I think the business model for agencies and marketing teams will be fundamentally changed

John Jantsch (02:22.53)

Yeah.

Peter Benei (02:32.184)

because of this new AI tool, AI capabilities, AI agent, whatever, AI. And I think that will be interesting to see. again, agencies also changed and marketing teams also changed 10, five, 20 years ago. So I think we just need to be familiar and open to adapt to this new change. So I don't...

John Jantsch (03:00.31)

Well...

Peter Benei (03:01.078)

dramatize or strategize or panic around this. You just need to adapt.

John Jantsch (03:08.056)

Yeah, it's funny. There was a period of time where you had social media marketing agencies and digital marketing agencies, right? It was just like, oh no, we're this flavor. And now it's just like, no, it's all just marketing. Right. So what are the things you write about a lot? And, and I, you know, I'm a subscriber to your newsletter and I really, there are a lot of people out there writing about AI hype, you know, like look at what this thing could do. But I think you guys have take a very,

Peter Benei (03:12.206)

Hmm?

Peter Benei (03:19.693)

Yes.

Peter Benei (03:25.944)

Thank you.

John Jantsch (03:35.352)

Like you said, not necessarily a dramatic hype approach, a very almost stand back approach of saying, look, we have to remain strategic. Human beings have a role, but maybe it's changed. And so I really appreciate that take. So let's get in a little bit to the changing, like the AI plus strategy, you know, plus humans approach, because there's certainly a lot of hand wringing right now around all these jobs that are going to be wiped out.

What are people going to do? So what do you, let's just divide it. What do you think is going to go away that these tools actually do better than humans? And what do you think is going to actually stay and perhaps not for a long time be replaced by humans or by machines.

Peter Benei (04:05.486)

Thanks.

Peter Benei (04:21.922)

No, that's a tempting and also interesting question. One thing that I want to reflect quickly, the focus on non-hype bullshit and sorry for calling that way, non-hype framing of this whole entire new trend was also personal choice of ours with the newsletter, but also a strategic choice as well.

Obviously everyone is hyping around this whole thing. we are personally, we are getting a little bit older, I guess. And we are just not interested in the, the, in the defocusing of our audiences. So we made the conscious decision to kind of like stand still and observe a little bit more with a strategic eye. So that's one thing. Second.

John Jantsch (05:09.921)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (05:18.232)

To your question, I would love to have an answer, but I'm not afraid to say that I don't know. think during these times that are changing, it's really hard to know what will happen. And we are just migrating, by the way, the news that are to another platform. And I had to reread the old stuff that we wrote. When I say old, like half a year ago.

John Jantsch (05:37.858)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (05:47.832)

All right.

Peter Benei (05:48.174)

And that will be a context to your answer, by the way. And I just read what we'd wrote like half a year ago and everything was so beginning at that stage still. Everything changed so fast within a couple of months. New tools came out, new concepts introduced to the public. And I'm not talking about like agents, like more like, know.

John Jantsch (06:04.375)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (06:14.818)

working together with AI, human in the loop, and these kind of stuff. It's so hard to predict because within this small time frame, everything has changed. I think what we can do to answer this question, and sorry for it, it takes a little bit longer, is that to nail down the basics that we think that it will be changing. And I think there are a couple of things that will change. And one that I'm...

almost 100 % sure it will change is that production of marketing materials and like marketing production in a sense, like content production, shall we say, will be either fully automated or it will not come with a high barrier of entry. It doesn't have a high barrier of entry right now either, but it will have like a minimum barrier of entry with AI.

John Jantsch (06:54.614)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (07:14.254)

That means a lot for agencies, by the way, for marketing teams, because we create, mean, like 80 % of our work as marketers are creating content. Now, if the content creation is almost automated by AI, what do we do? Right? That's the question. Now I don't have the answer, but I'm sure that we won't create that much and that amount of content within our workload and work time.

Second, AI is getting perfect or better, shall we say. It's always, know, tomorrow's AI is 10x better than today's AI. But it's still not perfect. And the reason why it's not perfect is that it still needs the human, us, to course, supervise, review, edit, whatever. So I think the...

human in the loop or human in the addition working with the AI, it will matter for now, for a couple of years at least. And third, we need to think that if production is not our job anymore, but we still need it, then where do we need it? And I think that's the answer for your question here, that we need to be able to form strategies.

And what is the strategy, by the way, understanding the client need with empathy and suggest process to achieve the goals. are goals and that's it. Pretty much that's the bare bones, simple strategy. How do we produce more? sorry. How do we produce better content? Because production wise, it will be automated, but it still has to be good. We need taste.

John Jantsch (08:56.45)

Right.

John Jantsch (09:09.698)

Right.

Peter Benei (09:11.106)

We need quality, we need judgment, we review supervision. And how do we work better with AI is that if we understand the workflows and the processes as a kind of like operator of the entire show. So I think strategy, like empathy, taste and operational efficiency or workflow knowledge should be...

and will be important for marketers. And I'm safe to say these.

John Jantsch (09:44.822)

Yeah, you, you. Well, and I think you raise a real, I think at least right now, one of the differentiators, the barrier to produce, to producing, quantity is gone. however, I think the barrier to producing quality is still a real differentiator.

Peter Benei (10:03.042)

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. agree. And it just, know, AI just like highlighted how not many of us have taste and how not many of us can produce great content and how most of the content that we've used so far anyway was, well, wouldn't say garbage, but like, you know, mediocre. And I think it's super important to...

to highlight that previously you needed resources to produce high quality content. So if you wanted to do a Super Bowl level advertising, you needed DDB or or or whoever big agency. If you wanted to do a global media campaign, you needed a media agency or an insane marketing budget to go with that.

John Jantsch (10:37.901)

Yes.

Peter Benei (11:02.638)

If you wanted to produce a content library of whatever you have, like 100 eBooks or shit, you need 10, 50, whatever, copywriters or marketers to do that. Similarly happening in other industries. So if you wanted to do the new John Wick movie, you needed a Hollywood studio and so on. can go on and on.

John Jantsch (11:18.338)

Thanks.

Peter Benei (11:33.184)

Now you don't need these resources. You need a laptop and an idea and I don't know, hundred dollars for API credits. And pretty much that's it. That's it. That's all you need. And judgment and taste and strategic mindset. And, know, these kinds of stuff that are human in innate human values and abilities, which AI cannot produce.

John Jantsch (11:36.205)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:02.658)

Well, so that begs the question then, if we are going to still have humans involved, do we need different humans? A lot of us. If we built an organization, say, to produce stuff, you know, the copywriters, the graphic designers, that their whole output was the stuff, do we now need to hire for taste and for judgment and for brand intuition?

Peter Benei (12:17.602)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (12:27.83)

I yes. I'm not the person who will tell you otherwise. And I'm also not the person who is in the business who helps you to do that. But if I would be in the business, I would immediately start some sort of like a training company or anything around that that helps people who have like basic skills through studies. Like, I don't know.

John Jantsch (12:28.92)

the

Peter Benei (12:57.806)

creative arts or whatever, and upgrading them to be able to use those skills in a refined manner for multiple purposes. In our case, marketing. So yeah, people and companies should hire Prudence.

John Jantsch (12:59.661)

Right.

John Jantsch (13:13.496)

And I think I've actually seen on your website, aren't you producing some courses or some master classes or something around those? Yeah, yeah, okay.

Peter Benei (13:21.302)

Yeah, we do some workshops. We do some workshops, but we are not a training company. So, so we didn't within AI ready CMO, if you like pave to go to get a paid member, you obviously have access to some sort of like a workshop training program and some studies, but we are not a training.

John Jantsch (13:26.551)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:40.994)

Right, right. Yeah, okay. So, would you... If somebody was, I don't know, maybe coming out of school now or maybe trying to change careers or something, are there some roles or functions that you would say, hey, you should spend your time up-leveling your skills in this area?

Peter Benei (13:42.924)

And I don't want to be a training company.

Peter Benei (13:52.334)

Hmm?

Peter Benei (14:03.608)

So I'm 44. That will be a long shot, I'm 44 and many of my friends have kids who are like 15 or 10 or 15 or 20 sometimes. And they all talk about the same thing. I like full honesty.

John Jantsch (14:30.84)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (14:33.39)

They talk about what will these kids will do in five to 10 years, what kind of careers they will pursue and so on and so on. They are families. So I usually talk with the dads, obviously, and they are talking about, I need to send my kid to a university or college or whatever. I live in Europe, so I don't know, they send it to Vienna or something. And how...

How should I pick which university they should go in and so on and so on? How should I help them? And they are clueless. And usually the close to good answer that I see, and again, this is a personal opinion, so treat it as is, usually the ones that are sending their kids to some sort of like art, history,

John Jantsch (15:10.776)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

John Jantsch (15:31.512)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (15:32.782)

Literally something around these like soft things, which we call soft skills or soft studies.

John Jantsch (15:37.376)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:41.495)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (15:44.692)

I wouldn't send my kid to engineering school right now. I wouldn't send my kid to learn that become a developer or a lawyer or not even a doctor probably. I don't think that these, I mean, these professions will exist obviously, but it will have a really huge competition that only the finest one will succeed or will be needed.

but if you have like a general arts degree or something around that, know usually, you know, treated as totally useless. I have one by the way. but still, so I studied history and sociology pretty much useless, I guess, but still. and I think these, these studies might be something that can be valuable because they, they teach you the basics of.

John Jantsch (16:22.922)

Right?

Peter Benei (16:43.64)

how to read, how to judge aesthetic things, and how to think critically, yes. How to think in context, so like historical context, let's say. And I think these baseline knowledge skills, let's say, I wouldn't call them skills, but these things will be in, yes.

John Jantsch (16:49.89)

I to think critically.

John Jantsch (17:08.704)

It's exposure really more than anything else, right? Yeah.

Peter Benei (17:11.746)

These will be inherently valuable than knowing the latest legal, whatever it is.

John Jantsch (17:14.274)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.308)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which can be, yeah, queued up. How about CMOs? Are you, do you see that role going away? Do you see it, you know, changing inside of organizations to where it will not only look different, but it will have a different function?

Peter Benei (17:22.541)

Yes.

Peter Benei (17:38.232)

So we preach at AERA, the CMO is that the CMO role is becoming more like an orchestrator who is leading and creating these environments of workflows where people work together with AI and AI automation. And from the marketing org chart, like, know, junior, mid-manager, specialist.

John Jantsch (17:47.81)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (18:07.128)

head off whatever and see. I do think that the CMO role will be the last one who will fall. Juniors probably will have the hardest time, especially, and also mid managers and specialists, because some of them need to pivot into something else because AI will just simply eat their field of expertise there.

but those people who are able to manage not just people, but workflows together. mixing the soft skills with, I wouldn't say engineering level skills of workflow engineering, but more like, you know, operational level. I think these people will be valuable and these people will be the CMOs I think. But if you were a CMO and only created the marketing budget and.

John Jantsch (18:53.516)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (19:06.306)

delegated the tasks and that's it. Yeah, you probably will have a harder time in the upcoming years and you need to learn workflow efficiency, operational level execute and you know, these kinds of Or if you are on the other side, more like an operational person, you probably need to learn a little bit more soft skills and judgment and taste and you know, these kinds of stuff that we talked about so far.

John Jantsch (19:35.124)

So I want end on one kind of, there's a bit of been a bit of a rant for me and I'm curious where you land on this. I think a lot of people were jumping at, my AI tool stack is these 17 tools because they all do one thing really well. And I think what I've said all along is I think the Googles and the Microsofts of the world are going to basically figure out how to build all of those best of class tools into their

Peter Benei (19:41.774)

Please.

Peter Benei (19:51.342)

Hmm.

Peter Benei (20:03.448)

Agree.

John Jantsch (20:04.696)

into their work tool that you buy for one price or that you're already buying that now is just $10 more a month. And they will really kind of wipe out a lot of these one-off tools. I'm curious what you think of that.

Peter Benei (20:10.926)

I agree.

Peter Benei (20:18.094)

100%. I mean, this will be a hard argument because I 100 % agree with you. I can share you two examples. Two examples and one explanation on why people think that. I mean, especially, know, C level people and decision makers, they love throwing resources on problems. So yeah, they have like a tool.

John Jantsch (20:43.352)

Mm-hmm.

Peter Benei (20:48.174)

abundance, and they, and they buy shiny new tools every day. that's fine. We understand it's obviously not the right call. and even, even they don't, they know it usually. and the two examples are, are simple ones. One, you actually mentioned off of air that you read the latest article that we, that we published. I mean, it's not rocket science judge, just a Claude Cowork, came out.

John Jantsch (21:16.941)

Yes.

Peter Benei (21:18.282)

A funny thing, by the way, did Claude did it. mean, the Anthropic team did it with Claude code within half, one and a half a week. And no line of code were written by any engineers, all AI. So the learning there is that most of the tools will be irrelevant because startups

John Jantsch (21:29.848)

Mm.

John Jantsch (21:34.934)

Yes.

Peter Benei (21:45.674)

And AI tools just die every day because new tools will come out. Also don't forget that the big ones, Google and the others, they have infinite resources, like infinite. They have infinite training data and AI lives on data. So just like one simple AI feature added to Google ads, let's say.

We'll probably kill 90 % of the AI tools out there right now overnight.

John Jantsch (22:20.972)

Well, they also, know, one thing people underestimate, they also have all the hardware.

Peter Benei (22:25.216)

And also the hardware. Well, in a sense business, that hardware doesn't really matter that much, more like the data, but yeah, the hardware is important too. And the second thing is that, well, I'm really proud of it because it happened today. So sorry for sharing it with everyone right now on this podcast, but I built a content repurposing application. You literally, it does...

John Jantsch (22:26.584)

So it doesn't cost them anything.

John Jantsch (22:35.49)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:45.208)

You

Peter Benei (22:54.956)

A simple thing, you give an RSS feed to the application, in our case, our newsletter. We are only two people. So we don't have social media managers and stuff. And because most of the content that we do is news-driven, so every day we publish something new. We cannot batch write stuff pre-time. So we only know the content on the same day.

and we need to share it on X and everywhere. And we spend a lot of time to repurposing this type of content, even if we use AI. So this app actually takes everything that we have, new posts, and repurpose it on different platforms. It self-learns, it does everything. It's fully automated, it's amazing. It has a UX, everything.

and I built it under an hour while I having breakfast at my kitchen table. I'm not kidding. And I don't know how to code at all. Like I never coded a single line of code ever. And I will probably never will. Claude did it. just why prompting it. So the reason why I'm telling this, thing is that it's so easy to build up something new now.

John Jantsch (23:58.336)

Yeah.

Peter Benei (24:21.134)

even for personal use that you probably end up and that's like a wild guess and more like a futurism. But I might guess that within a year or two, we don't really even have like small sasses for most companies. People just, you know, ramp up their own applications for their own computer, for their own personal use, for their own agency, for their own clients within an hour.

John Jantsch (24:21.186)

Yeah. Right.

Peter Benei (24:50.508)

works fine just for them.

John Jantsch (24:53.016)

Yes. Yes, yes.

Peter Benei (24:54.382)

So it's interesting. So short answer to your question. mean, don't really bother subscribing to 20-something AI tools. Probably 95 % of them will be extinct within a year or two and substitute by Gemini or other Google products or whatever. Or second answer, build your own.

John Jantsch (25:05.237)

Alright.

John Jantsch (25:21.632)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm curious. And again, you don't have to answer this. can end on this. But I suspect that Google will build a cowork clone, you know, because you think of all the people have all of their stuff on Google Drive, and not just to be able to say, here, go consume all this. You've got to believe that's coming. Well, Peter, I appreciate you.

Peter Benei (25:31.853)

Yeah.

Peter Benei (25:41.25)

Yes. And by the way, it's interesting. Sorry, last sentence. I have to rant about Microsoft a little. It's so interesting that you have all the documents on SharePoints and all the knowledge documents and stuff, and copilot is still. So it's so weird. Anyway, sorry.

John Jantsch (25:46.794)

No, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (26:01.909)

huh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

No, no, no, it has that typical Microsoft feel will land there. So Peter, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there some place you'd invite people to find out more about AI ready CMO?

Peter Benei (26:12.909)

Yeah.

Peter Benei (26:17.719)

Always.

Peter Benei (26:22.84)

Well, you just said it, AIReadyCMO.com. It's free to subscribe. We share daily updates, daily intelligence. Every day it lands the one thing that you need to know about AI in marketing in your email box. Simple.

John Jantsch (26:25.954)

Yep, awesome.

John Jantsch (26:36.748)

Yeah, it is a newsletter that I read every day. appreciate it, All right, great. Well, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully maybe one of these days we'll run into you on the road.

Peter Benei (26:42.476)

Thank you.

Peter Benei (26:50.358)

and anytime. Thank you very much for inviting me.

John Jantsch (26:51.797)

us.

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