Why Branding Begins With Your Team Culture

Why Branding Begins With Your Team Culture written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, guest host Sara Nay talks with Rhea (“Ray”) Allen, president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media and host of the Marketing Expedition Podcast. Rhea shares her expertise on how small businesses can intentionally connect their internal culture and external brand, why storytelling and authenticity matter more than ever, and how team engagement drives both retention and marketing success. The conversation covers practical ways to align HR and marketing, build buy-in for core values, and keep company culture vibrant—whether you’re working in person or virtually.

About the Guest

Rhea Allen is the president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media, an award-winning agency known for its innovative approach to branding, culture, and storytelling. As host of the Marketing Expedition Podcast, Ray draws on decades of experience helping businesses grow from the inside out. She’s a sought-after speaker, business builder, and advocate for blending human connection with effective marketing.

• Website: peppershock.com
• Podcast: Marketing Expedition Podcast
• LinkedIn: Rhea Allen

Actionable Insights

• Culture and brand are inseparable—your brand begins on the inside, with your team’s experience and values.
• Aligning HR and marketing ensures a consistent, authentic brand both internally and externally.
• Involving the whole team in defining values and sharing stories builds lasting buy-in and engagement.
• Storytelling—both within the team and with customers—is a powerful tool for passing along culture and creating brand advocates.
• Authentic, “human” content and behind-the-scenes glimpses outperform stock images and generic AI content, especially on social media.
• Retention, happiness, and engagement are the best ROI for culture investments—happy campers create happy customers.
• In-person and virtual teams both need intentional rituals, questions, and fun to keep culture thriving.
• Volunteer work, team lunches, and shared experiences (even camping!) can strengthen bonds and reinforce culture.
• Company culture is always evolving—leaders must actively participate and continuously nurture it.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:04 – Culture Starts with Brand, from the Inside Out
  Rhea explains how employee experience shapes external brand and customer perception.
• 01:55 – Hiring and Values Alignment
  Sara shares how leading with mission, vision, and values in hiring supports both retention and brand.
• 03:26 – Culture & Brand Camp: Breaking Down Silos
  How Pepper Shock Media brings HR and marketing together for shared ownership of culture.
• 05:24 – Team-Defined Values and Storytelling
  Why involving the whole team in crafting values creates buy-in and lasting culture.
• 06:02 – Sharing Values Through Stories
  Practical exercises for bringing values to life and onboarding new team members.
• 07:19 – Bringing Stories into Marketing
  Rhea explains how customer and team stories drive authenticity in external branding.
• 08:29 – Authenticity as a Differentiator in the Age of AI
  Why human, imperfect content outperforms polished, automated posts.
• 12:28 – What’s the ROI of Fun?
  Both guests discuss why investing in culture pays off in retention, happiness, and productivity.
• 13:03 – Rituals that Build Culture (Lunches, Questions, Celebrations)
  Rhea shares Pepper Shock’s traditions for team bonding and knowledge sharing.
• 16:21 – Volunteerism, Camping, and Culture Beyond the Office
  The value of shared experiences outside of work—whether in person or remote.
• 19:39 – Action Steps for Leaders
  Rhea’s advice: Culture will exist with or without you—actively guide it and keep your campers happy!

Pulled Quotes

“Culture and brand go hand in hand. Your brand starts from the inside out—with the experiences your team and customers have.”
— Rhea Allen

“Happy campers create happy customers. Retention, joy, and team engagement are the ROI of investing in culture.”
— Rhea Allen

Duct Tape Transcript

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Sara Nay (00:01.635)

Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is your host, Sarah Nay. And today I'm stepping in for John Jantsch and I am joined by Rhea Allen. So Rhea Allen is the president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media, host of the Marketing Edition Podcast and a business owner who knows what it's like to build a brand from the ground up. So welcome to the show, Ray. I'm glad you're here.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (00:23.064)

Well thank you so much for having me, Sarah. This is exciting.

Sara Nay (00:26.145)

I know and fun backstory, right? And I met online through a different group and actually figured out that we're both in Idaho about 25 minutes away from each other. And I haven't met a ton of business owners online from Idaho. So it was really exciting to connect with you, right?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (00:42.03)

We had to go global to come local, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (00:45.015)

Exactly. Exactly. Well, let's dive on in. We're going to focus on the topic really of branding and culture today, because that's one of your specialties as I know. And so I've heard you say before, culture and brand go hand in hand. And so can you break down what does that mean exactly to small business owners?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (01:04.268)

Well, what I always try to emphasize most is that your culture starts with your brand from the inside out. And sometimes culture can't necessarily be controllable. It's what it is, the experience that both your employees and the people who come to you for that experience of what you serve and in an agency setting, culture is so important because it is our brand. It's who we are and how we represent what we do.

And when we work with other companies that want to understand how they can continue to build and grow their culture in a positive way, in the way that they would like to see their brand exuded into the world, whether it's recruiting new employees or new customers, and retention is always a huge part of it. So that's why I say culture and branding go hand in hand together for sure.

Sara Nay (01:55.718)

Yeah, and it's great. I love that thought process. And what I've been doing for years at Duct Tape Marketing is whenever we hire someone new for a role within our company, we always start with the job description and we lead with here's our mission, here's our vision, here's our values. And so I want someone to read through all of that first on the job description. Then I'll get to here's the role and the tasks and all the other details because

I want someone to be aligned culturally, like that to me is one of the most important things because as you said, it helps people stick around for a long time and also represent our brand in the way we want to be represented. And then, you know, when we're going through the interview process, our first interview is always based on values. And so one of the things we're always trying to hire for is growth minded people because in the marketing space, it's always continuing and evolving.

And so I'm asking questions to identify if they're growth minded and then asking them skills specific questions. So that's just one of the ways that we've leaned into making culture and hiring aligned with our brand long term.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (02:58.446)

Absolutely, and we do a variety of things, but one of the things that we set up is we call it culture and brand camp. So this one time at brand camp, we go through a process and it really is about aligning the HR roles and the marketing roles together so that they're not siloed and they're working together to create the culture and brand that they really want to be.

Sara Nay (03:06.276)

nice.

I love it.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (03:26.688)

known for and have that experience that they want people to walk away from and, feel the feelings that you want when you're in that process and going through that process. So, we go through culture and brand camp and, do a number of exercises to work together, to understand both internal and external messaging. And when everyone's singing from the same sheet of music and saying similar terminology and, able to articulate that in a way that is, is.

Sara Nay (03:45.962)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (03:55.636)

mindful of how they all can own it and have ownership in their, their own branding and how other people are going to perceive them because of the way that they have been able to articulate it and what experiences they want to have. and so going through that process and doing some team building exercises and some branding exercises and, bringing the two sort of areas that are sometimes really siloed in companies and they don't always come together and work together.

but then when we bring them together and they are in that mode of like, we, we are in control of our own culture and we are in control of our brand that we have out there. So, it's a, it's a fun exercise to go through and do that with companies to, to, have them walk through those processes together and have that experience of their own together as well.

Sara Nay (04:31.906)

Yeah, I love that. And I think that gets, I'm assuming it gets buy-in from the whole team and support behind the whole team. One of the things that we did fairly recently is we used to have values that John and I are, our founder identified as like our core values.

and we kind of made those up on our own and then we would like tell the team about them. We're like, that doesn't feel right. And so we did a session as a team where we had everyone identify like what they wanted the values to be. And we then collaborated and crafted our core values together. And to me, that was so much more of a rewarding but also buy-in experience for the team because they were part of the process versus being here's our values, go live by these ultimately. Yeah, go do this.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (05:24.888)

Yeah. Now go do this. Yeah. And whenever you can include the team into that decision making process, they have so much more ownership in it. And to take it even a step further, having them tell stories around those values that you've selected and where maybe there's a, an example of something that occurred because of that value. And then having them tell you about a time when, now give me, give me an example of one of the values that you and your team came up with Sarah.

Sara Nay (05:48.59)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (05:53.093)

Well, one of them is growth minded, like always being leaders and innovators and ahead of the game. So it's that whole idea of just like growth and always learning and evolving.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (06:02.35)

So one of the activities that you can do just as an icebreaker to get people in the mode, um, anyone who cares to share, tell me about a time where this value came through. What was the occurrence? What happened that you had this growth minded mentality or somebody else can share about somebody else on the team. And now storytelling becomes this a part of the culture, right? We know back in ancient history that storytelling was.

how culture was being able to get passed along to generation to generation. have the hieroglyphs on the walls that were drawn. so storytelling is such a huge part of culture, no matter what kind of culture we're talking about, whether it's company culture or if it's your indigenous people and the culture, the stories that are being told is the way that that continues to happen. And it's really great for new people coming in to hear those stories when something has happened.

Sara Nay (06:55.14)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (06:57.71)

And, you can exemplify it and also makes people feel really good when they have an opportunity to share about others and in circumstance that occurred, that can help continue those stories.

Sara Nay (07:09.218)

Yeah, I love it. And so a lot of what you're talking about there is like storytelling as a team, as a culture. Do you take any of that storytelling and bring it, you know, as a marketing or a branding initiative as well?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (07:19.95)

Absolutely. And where it really can shine through is when you now involve your customers and they have testimonials and you can have them share a story about the circumstances or experiences that they've had with people that they've interacted with on your team. So we know it's all about the people sometimes more than anything else, the people that work with you. And, and so when you can bring that full circle and then you have stories that you can tell of, of the values that also shown through with your

your customers, your clients, then it really does start from the inside out.

Sara Nay (07:54.819)

Yeah, I love it. A lot of what's happening in the marketing space specifically right now is a lot of people are putting out a lot of content at scale because of the evolution of AI. And so one of the things that I'm seeing growing and importance is storytelling and being more human, but also being authentic and maybe even making some mistakes in the stuff you're putting out there because it just feels everything feels so polished right now. So can you touch on

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (08:04.44)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (08:15.758)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (08:24.746)

Do you see storytelling and authenticity growing in importance these days as well?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (08:29.548)

Absolutely. In fact, I just did a panel discussion, and actually it was HR, the HR, sorry, public relations and then, advertising coming together. So mine was all about personal branding and, I created an acronym of keeping it real. so real, obviously, you know, being authentic and having that realness about you. Right. And then, being able to.

Sara Nay (08:48.494)

Nice.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (08:57.086)

extend that to others and have and share that consistently. And then of course, authenticity and then leveraging your network to be able to share that with others and showing up and keeping it real. yeah, authenticity is definitely, I think more valued than some of the AI that really at Nausium comes out. That's just not real, right? I mean, it's, it's artificial. It's artificial intelligence. So

Sara Nay (09:08.793)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (09:22.882)

Having your own spin on your own words sometimes really does help with the content that's coming out. And I see that that's a shift. Everyone was kind of, we're going to use AI to replace the people, the human touch of what we're putting out there. And I really think that you can tell somewhat now. And I mean, it's getting really good where you can't necessarily, and it's trying to write in your voice. But there's still some quirkiness about the AI.

still say it takes HI to use AI, so human intelligence. Yeah.

Sara Nay (09:54.626)

Yes, it does. I love it. Yeah. And I think that's what I'm experiencing on LinkedIn specifically, just because I spend a lot of time there. I'm not saying it's not having anywhere else, but like on LinkedIn, there's just a lot of generic content being published right now. And so I've, you know, shifted to try to be more authentic and more human. And so I've shared posts recently that like I shared a post last week or so ago that was like my desk.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (10:08.15)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (10:20.705)

and it was my kids, had decorated my desk just because and that's just, it's getting like that human content is getting so much more traction because people are like, that feels more unique and more personal than this other post that anyone could have written.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (10:32.76)

Yep. Well, and it's true. I mean, you can just take a look at, you know, the history of what you've posted. you, if we post pictures of our actual team and not just stock images or, know, if we do behind the scenes from video shoots that we're doing, or if we, you know, show real people in action, we get so much more engagement and traction and follows than we do if it's just a stock image or an inanimate, you know, object. And I love

Sara Nay (10:56.77)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (11:00.332)

Being able to showcase our people. again, it's about the culture and showing what we're doing and, and the volunteer activities that they're about, or, know, showing, showing when they were little and, know, kind of what became of them and, and, know, just, fun things like that. There are so much more, I think engaging and authentic and real.

Sara Nay (11:18.702)

Yeah, I agree. And kind of a funny story on that. posted a new book coming out and I posted a JPEG of the cover and luckily it hasn't gone to print yet, but someone pointed out that there was a typo on the cover. But her response to me was like so kind. She sent me a direct message and she was like, you know what I love about this? It shows that you're human and you're not just using AI for this content.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (11:29.561)

no!

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (11:37.698)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (11:40.875)

And so she actually was like very kind, but she like appreciated a little bit of an error because everything is feeling very polished at this point. And so I thought that was kind of funny.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (11:46.582)

Mm-hmm, right? Nice. Well, I'm glad that you were able to get that. I was like, there's always something, and you've been so closely tied to it, you're always gonna overlook something. There's always gonna be something.

Sara Nay (11:54.851)

I know, I was like.

Sara Nay (12:00.683)

Yeah, always. like three people on my team looked at it, but still we missed it. yeah, I talk a lot about, because when I'm training marketing agencies, building and scaling a business and hiring team, I talk a lot about what we do for building culture. And so a lot of that is like, we do show and tell on Slack every Wednesday and we do happy Fridays and we have team meetings where it's just kind of fun. And so I talk about all that stuff. And sometimes I get the question of,

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (12:04.534)

Of course. That's how it works, of course.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (12:21.036)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (12:28.887)

What's the ROI for all of that? Like you're paying people to do these fun things. And so I'm curious, what would be your answer to a question like

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (12:30.83)

Mm-hmm.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (12:36.718)

my gosh. well, first of all, if you don't have a little bit of fun and incorporate the human aspect of living and working together all the time, and we spend more time with our work coworkers than we do with our spouses. Well, not in my case, cause I work with my spouse, but a lot of times, like, you know, if you look at how much time is spent with the people that you are, you know, with every day, it's your coworkers. So I feel like if you are just,

Sara Nay (12:52.003)

Yeah

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (13:03.478)

robotic in what you're doing and not engaging and not being, you know, that team player or having being a part of the culture, you're going to make life miserable for yourself. Right. And so I feel like having time that you can naturally and be okay with spending some of that. It is an ROI in your, you know, you're investing in your people and you're investing in them wanting to stay, right. Can that retention. And we know that when somebody leaves a company, it takes

just twice as much or even more to replace them. And then all of the, knowledge that they've, that has just been left behind because they've left the company. So you want to do the things that are going to help retain those people. And, know, we, we spend time. We, we also do once a month. Now we do, we used to do it every week, which is a little, little, okay. I get it. You know, but now we do, so originally started out as Friday fun lunch, but then people take Fridays off. so, you know, some, some, some of us do, you know, summer Fridays off.

Sara Nay (13:55.076)

Thanks.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (14:03.176)

and have the four day work week fine. So then we moved it to Wednesdays. So then it become lunch instead of funch. So Friday, fun lunch, and then lunch. And now everybody is only, I mean, all of us are all in the office on Mondays. So now it's munch. And so we, once a month go, we celebrate work anniversaries where I like to call workversaries or birthdays or something that we're celebrating. And we actually came up with some things that we always go through. it's,

Sara Nay (14:08.835)

I love it.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (14:32.334)

successes and frustrations, celebrations and appreciations, new technologies, or book or blog reports, or any, you know, anybody that's reading a book, tell us a little bit about it or a blog or something, you know, new technology, something like that. And then a question of the day. And so we always come up with a random question, you know, what's your favorite cereal as a kid, or what was your favorite cartoon to watch or, you know, who are you rooting for, for the Super Bowl? Right. I mean, so, so we always come up with something fun.

Sara Nay (14:50.003)

Thanks.

Sara Nay (14:58.965)

Yeah, yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (15:01.542)

And, we all participate and, you know, successes and frustrations. you know, if we're in a public place, we are careful about our frustrations, but, but it's important to acknowledge, you know, big successes, big wins all the time. And also if there is something, you know, that is frustrating people, I want to hear about it. And it's a safe space to be able to share that if there is some sort of frustration or something that needs to be acknowledged. and then we can talk about it, but, then of course, celebrations, appreciations, and then.

Sara Nay (15:10.275)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (15:29.92)

The new technology book or blog reports is helpful because if people are learning about new things that are coming up or new tools or maybe a client wants to investigate a new tool or there's a new Adobe plugin or who knows what, we're talking about it and sharing that and it's purposeful and intentional so that we can make sure that we cover those things. It's a fun thing to do. The other thing that we do every year, and this is one of the questions I ask when I hire people.

Sara Nay (15:44.696)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (15:58.062)

is if they like to go camping or not, or if they're a glamper or like, absolutely not. Because every year all of us with our spouses, our, you know, kids, pets, everybody, we go camping together, um, as a bit one big, huge pepper shock family. And, um, if you're not a camper, you're probably not going to really appreciate the culture that we've built. I mean, it's not mandatory. I mean, you know, it has happened, but.

Sara Nay (16:00.72)

No.

Sara Nay (16:17.744)

Yeah.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (16:21.742)

Um, it's, it's really important to us because we love the outdoors and especially here in Idaho, we have all the seasons and it's definitely, you know, we live here on purpose. can do work anywhere. Uh, but we purposely choose to, have, you know, Idaho is our back, you know, our back door. So, um, that's a really important part of our culture to, to enjoy hiking and, know, those types of things. so, um, it's, it's fun and people look forward to it. It's, know, what are we going to do this year? What are we, you know,

Are we gonna go rafting? Are we gonna go hiking? What are we doing? And so it's something fun and it's always been a part of our culture since we started and it's definitely something that we really enjoy. So yeah, there's definitely things we do. The other things that we do, Kristy helps, our graphic designer, we do volunteer time together and we've boxed food up at the food bank.

next week we're going to go to, there's a local place called the Idaho Botanical Garden. So we're going to get our horticulture on and bring our favorite planting tool. And we're going to go help the landscapers and do some fun things there, but it's just a part of the culture. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's otherwise paid time, but, you know, I want them to be involved in the community. want us to feel and come together as a team and doing some things that are not your typical.

Sara Nay (17:23.742)

Nice.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (17:42.89)

average workday all the time is really enriching for our people. So we want to continue to do that.

Sara Nay (17:49.492)

Yeah, that's great. And that's how I mean, I answered that question as well. When people ask about ROI, it's you're going to retain people longer, they're going to be happier, you're going to enjoy work more. And to me, that's like the best kind of ROI you can get. So I think that's great. And I love your examples, because a lot of what you shared are in person opportunities, because you work in person where I run a virtual company. And so we're trying to do some of that stuff virtually, which is really interesting as well.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (18:00.364)

Absolutely.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (18:08.174)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (18:13.482)

And so we do things like I mentioned, like the show and tell on Slack, that's just like such a small thing. And all we do is we ask a random question every single Wednesday at a scheduled time. And then people answer the question. But when you're remote, you don't get time to, know, what's your favorite movie? What'd you do this weekend? What'd you, know, you don't have time for like all of those things. And so that question, then, you know, someone might ask, what's your favorite movie? And then like three people are like, my gosh, that's my favorite movie. I can recite every line. And now they have this like bond that they wouldn't have had.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (18:26.338)

Mm-hmm.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (18:40.814)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (18:42.05)

just through work meetings and going through the motions. Cool.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (18:44.526)

Yeah, I know during pandemic, we definitely all worked remote and I even had a couple of people move out of state to go live out their homes and with their families. And I can relate to trying to keep the company culture alive through zoom. And, you know, there's different things that, that we, we did. we, we played, pandemic reindeer games, came up with some fun things for them to do some trivia things and things like that, but.

Sara Nay (19:08.034)

Ha

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (19:13.282)

Yeah, I mean, it's important to keep your team together even if they're not in the same room or same building. Yeah, for sure.

Sara Nay (19:18.208)

Yeah, those pandemic times were weird times, weren't they? Well, we talked a about a lot of great stuff today when it relates to culture and branding. If anyone's just kind of feeling stuck on this topic, how they actually create a culture and how they tie it to their branding, are there any final thoughts or any action items you would share with them?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (19:22.056)

Yeah

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (19:39.086)

Yeah, absolutely. I think the important thing to remember is that culture is gonna be there whether you help guide it or not. The culture can be what you wanna mold it and grow it into or it's going to become something that you have no control over if you don't participate in the culture that you want your company to have. And so I think if you can identify

that there might be some needs in the areas of bridging the gaps between the different departments that come together and how they can work together to help build the culture that you want between HR and marketing and ops and all of the different areas that you have in a company. How can you make it to where everyone is singing from the same sheet of music and it's all in tune, right? You all have the same goals in mind together that they build together.

just recognizing that there is a need for that and it's an ongoing thing. It's not an overnight like, well I did a company picnic. I'm good for a while. No, no, Yeah. You've got to continuously build it, continuously grow it, and do things to continue to, to have your employees engaged. And I always say, if you've got happy campers.

Sara Nay (20:43.167)

Check that box.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (20:57.846)

Right? You're going to have happy customers. so keep your campers happy. And you know, at Culture and Brand Camp, that's one thing we focus on is happy campers then creates happy customers.

Sara Nay (20:58.023)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sara Nay (21:09.525)

I love it. Well, thank you for sharing all your insights. Lots of good stuff in this episode. If people want to continue to learn from you, where can they connect with you online?

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (21:18.408)

so couple of different places. of course, the marketing expedition podcast is free to listen to on pretty much every podcast platform. And then, which is powered by pepper shock media, our company, and, you can visit pepper shock.com and we're on all the social platforms, LinkedIn, all of that. So, you can find me in Ray is R H E a Alan a L L E N. So Ray Allen.

And I would look forward to chatting with anybody that would like to talk about their company culture and branding.

Sara Nay (21:51.073)

Thank you so much Ray for being here and thank you everyone for listening to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Again, this is your host, Sarenée, and we will see you next time.

Rhea ("Ray") Allen (22:00.792)

Thank you.

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Should You Hire a Fractional CMO? Here’s Who It’s For (and Who It’s Not For)

Should You Hire a Fractional CMO? Here’s Who It’s For (and Who It’s Not For) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

After working with thousands of business owners over the last three decades, I can tell you one thing with certainty: the marketing leader you hire, or don’t hire, can make or break your growth.

TL;DR

A Fractional CMO can be a game-changer for businesses with clear growth objectives, leadership buy-in, and a team ready to execute. If you lack goals, expect quick fixes, or resist change, it’s not the right time. This post explains exactly who should, and who shouldn’t, hire one, plus real-world case studies from Duct Tape Marketing clients.

Table of Contents

• What is a Fractional CMO, Really?
• The Pros of Hiring a Fractional CMO
• The Cons (and Cautions)
• It’s For You If…
• It’s Not For You If…
• Case Study: Schloegel Design Remodel
• The Bottom Line
• FAQ

What is a Fractional CMO, Really?

A Fractional CMO isn’t just a consultant with a fancier title. They’re a part-time, senior-level marketing leader who takes responsibility for your marketing strategy, integrates it with your overall business plan, and ensures it gets implemented.

Typical Responsibilities:

• Developing a Strategic Marketing Plan – Aligning marketing with sales, customer experience, and growth goals.
• Leading the Marketing Team – Coordinating in-house staff, freelancers, and agencies.
• Installing a Marketing System – Using the Duct Tape Marketing System to replace “random acts of marketing” with a repeatable, measurable process.
• Measuring and Optimizing – Tracking key metrics to ensure results.

It’s like renting the leadership of a $200,000-a-year CMO without the full-time salary, benefits, and overhead.

The Pros of Hiring a Fractional CMO

• Strategic Clarity – A focused plan tied directly to your business goals.
• Cost Efficiency – Executive expertise at a fraction of the cost.
• Proven Frameworks – The Duct Tape Marketing System is a battle-tested roadmap.
• Accountability – One person responsible for marketing outcomes.
• Objectivity – An external perspective unclouded by internal politics.

The Cons (and Cautions)

• Not a Magic Wand – Won’t fix a broken business model.
• Requires Buy-In – Without leadership support, plans stall.
• Dependent on Execution – Your team still needs to implement.
• Limited Hours – Not in-office daily; requires proactive communication.

It’s For You If…

• You Have Clear Growth Objectives – Expansion goals, revenue targets, or new markets in mind.
• You Have (or Will Build) an Execution Team – Employees, contractors, or agencies ready to act.
• You Value Strategic Leadership – Marketing has a seat at the leadership table.
• You’re Ready to Commit – Willing to follow the plan and invest in resources.
• You’ve Outgrown DIY Marketing – Need structure and scalability.

It’s Not For You If…

• No Clear Goals – Without a defined destination, strategy won’t help.
• Looking for a Quick Fix – This is about building systems, not instant wins.
• No Execution Capacity – A plan without implementers is wasted.
• Resistant to Change – Leadership must be open to new approaches.
• In Survival Mode – Prioritize immediate sales before strategy.

Case Study: Schloegel Design Remodel

Schloegel Design Remodel, a respected Kansas City remodeling firm, had strong brand recognition but lacked a cohesive marketing strategy. As their Fractional CMO, we:

• Defined their ideal client profile and created a core message of difference
• Mapped the customer journey from first contact to referral
• Aligned SEO, content, social media, and email under one strategy and made them the dominant player in search and AI overviews
• Created referral and review workflows that continue to build trust with search engines and AI bots

Result: Predictable, high-quality leads, better conversion rates, a confident internal marketing team, and staggering year-over-year growth.

The Bottom Line

Hiring a Fractional CMO is not a band-aid. It’s a commitment to strategic marketing leadership. Paired with the Duct Tape Marketing System, it gives you a proven framework for consistent growth. It can be one of your smartest investments if you’re ready, with goals, a team, and leadership buy-in.

Frequently Asked Questions

How much does a Fractional CMO cost?

Costs vary widely based on scope, but most small to mid-sized businesses invest between $5,000 and $15,000 per month for a Fractional CMO’s services.

How is a Fractional CMO different from a marketing consultant?

Consultants provide advice and recommendations. A Fractional CMO provides leadership, creates strategy, and ensures execution happens.

How long should I commit to a Fractional CMO engagement?

While some short-term engagements exist, 12 months is ideal to see strategy, execution, and measurable results.

Can a Fractional CMO work with my existing marketing team?

Yes. In fact, the best results happen when a Fractional CMO leads and strengthens your current team rather than replacing them.

How to Decide If You Should Hire a Fractional CMO

1. Define Your Growth Goals – Be clear on revenue targets, market expansion, or product launches.
2. Assess Your Team – Ensure you have, or can build, the execution capacity for the strategy.
3. Evaluate Leadership Buy-In – Confirm that marketing will have support at the leadership level.
4. Determine Your Budget – Plan for the Fractional CMO’s cost and implementation resources.
5. Commit to a Timeline – Be prepared for a 12-month+ commitment for meaningful results.

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Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy

Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” Drawing on over 15 years of experience in every agency role—from intern to CEO—Sara explains why the traditional marketing agency model is broken for both clients and agencies. She introduces the “anti-agency” approach: a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled model designed to help small businesses own their marketing instead of renting it. The discussion covers timeless principles, the new role of the fractional CMO, how to leverage AI for impact (not just efficiency), and the steps any business can take to reclaim control and clarity.

About the Guest

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” With two decades of hands-on experience, Sara is a leading voice in strategy-first marketing systems for small businesses. She has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and agencies design sustainable, scalable growth through a blend of foundational principles and forward-thinking technology. Sara is a sought-after speaker and advocate for empowering business owners to take back ownership of their marketing.

• Website: unchainedmodel.com
• LinkedIn: Sara Nay

Actionable Insights

• The traditional agency model struggles with client demands, scope creep, profitability, and talent retention—especially as AI transforms execution.
• The “anti-agency” model empowers small businesses to stop renting their marketing and start owning it, with strategy and leadership at the center.
• Timeless marketing principles (ideal client, deep messaging, strategy before tactics) are more important than ever in the AI era.
• Rushing into AI tools without strategy amplifies chaos and inconsistency—start with business and marketing goals, then select and train the right tools.
• Fractional CMOs offer small businesses affordable, high-level leadership, managing strategy, budget, and metrics while leveraging lean teams and AI systems.
• Owning your marketing brings control, clarity, and the ability to scale—CEOs should focus on their “zone of genius” and let marketing leaders orchestrate execution.
• Agencies must shift from execution services to strategic leadership and AI-empowered team enablement to remain relevant.
• Every business can start reclaiming ownership by auditing team structure, clarifying partnerships, and aligning technology to strategy.
• AI should be used to elevate human talent, not replace it—future-proof your team and business by identifying high-impact skills and integrating AI support.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:06 – Why the Traditional Agency Model is Broken
  Sara shares her experience across agency roles and the pain points that inspired “Unchained.”
• 03:02 – Defining the Anti-Agency Model
  How AI and strategy are turning the old agency/client relationship upside down.
• 04:59 – Timeless Marketing Principles in the Age of AI
  Why ideal client profiles and deep messaging still matter most.
• 07:07 – The Dangers of Jumping Into AI Without Strategy
  Sara explains how “amplified chaos” is the real risk for small businesses.
• 08:55 – The New Org Chart: Fractional CMOs and AI-Powered Teams
  How small businesses can afford leadership and execution at scale.
• 11:05 – From Renting to Owning Your Marketing
  The mindset and structural shifts required for true business growth and clarity.
• 14:26 – How Agencies Must Evolve to Stay Relevant
  Why leadership, strategy, and AI team enablement are the future of agency services.
• 16:06 – Practical Steps for Taking Ownership This Week
  Sara’s advice for businesses ready to move from chaos to control.
• 18:08 – Elevating Your Team With AI
  How to future-proof your people and business by blending skills and technology.

Pulled Quotes

“Stop renting your marketing and start owning it. With the right strategy, small businesses can take back control and scale with confidence.”
— Sara Nay

“AI should be used to elevate your team—not replace them. Future-proof your business by blending technology with high-impact human skills.”
— Sara Nay

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, where she spent over 15 years helping small businesses build strategy-first marketing systems that actually work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small business reality from every angle as a teenager, as a team member, as a fractional CMO, and now as the CEO. In her new book,

Unchained, she makes the case that traditional agency model is broken, both for the clients and agencies and lays out a practical AI enabled strategy first approach she calls the anti-agency model. We're going to touch on that. Permission helps small business owners stop renting their marketing and start owning it. Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (00:53.858)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:55.778)

So you and I have been talking about marketing models for a long time. Was there a time when you kind of said, you know what, the agency model is broken and I got to create something different?

Sara Nay (01:06.455)

Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, I've been part of the agency space for about 15 years. And in that journey, I've moved from intern to community manager, account manager, fractional CMO for our clients among other roles. And so I've really been in all the different areas of the agency space. And throughout that journey, there's definitely been times where I've noticed things that didn't quite feel right in the agency space. And even further than that,

there have been several moments over the last 15 years where I've been burnt out and on the brink of saying, does this make sense to pursue even more, even further? And so I've lived a lot of challenges along the way and there's no secret in the challenges I've seen. think a lot of people experience this in the agency space. And so starting on that side, on the agency side of things, there's challenges with meeting client demands and managing scope creep and scaling and maintaining profitability and

retaining great talent and those are a lot of the things that I've heard from other agency owners struggling with, but I've also experienced it myself. Also in my roles, I've been on in the sales side of our business for a while now. So I've spoken with hundreds of small business owners who have worked with different agencies or outsourced solutions over those years. And I have heard all of their stories of

things along the lines of marketing doesn't work or I'm paying this agency for X and I have no idea if I'm getting results or if anything's happening with my marketing efforts. And so there's been a lot of this going on for years in the agency space. But I think it's becoming more more heightened now with the evolution of AI.

John Jantsch (02:49.518)

So you actually use the term anti-agency model. Now know you're not an agency hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and not just a better agency.

Sara Nay (03:02.379)

Yeah. So the whole play with the anti-agency model, as you identified, like obviously we're not anti-agency. We're an agency ourselves. We have been for 31 years. We love agencies. And so I do keep, I keep explaining that because I don't want people to think this book is against agencies, but what it's with the anti-agency, what it's saying is the model is broken essentially for some of the points that I had highlighted just a second ago. So it's anti-agency model specifically.

And so the way we have been doing and functioning for years as agencies were being forced in some ways to evolve because of the evolution of AI. so previously to AI, it made sense for agencies to hold onto things like marketing, execution, content, social, SEO, paid ads, all of the execution elements. But with the evolution of AI, I believe small businesses are able to take some of that stuff in-house.

They still need strategic leadership and direction, but they now have an opportunity to stay a little bit more lean with their in-house marketing team by layering in AI systems below them to help with the heavy lifting of execution. And so that's the whole idea of stop renting your marketing and taking back ownership of your marketing. You still need strategy. You still need direction. You still need leadership.

But now you can build a marketing department or team that is a bit leaner because they're overseeing orchestration of marketing, which is done by AI systems.

John Jantsch (04:39.086)

So one of the things you and I talk about a lot, cause I say it all the time is I, you know, I've been doing this 30 years and while a lot of new shiny things have come along, the fundamentals of marketing have not really changed or what we're here to do as marketers has not really changed that much. What timeless principles do you think from, our system? As you know, it's still worked today.

Sara Nay (04:59.085)

Yeah. And so that's the second really section of the book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless principles. And so some of the things that I touch on there are things like target market, identifying your clients on a very deep level. I think that's becoming even more and more important with the evolution of AI, because what I see is a lot of small businesses bringing in something like a chat, GBT or a clod or whatever their tool of choices. And they'll start just like,

creating content and so it's all over the place. It's not consistent. It's not on on brand. And so in your original book duct tape marketing, you talked a lot about identifying your ideal client on a deep level, understanding them emotionally, what keeps them up at night, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you still need to understand your clients on a very deep level. But then if you're going to bring in an AI tool, you then need to train the chat, you'd be to your tool of your choice that you bring in.

on that information. So when you're creating content moving forward, you're creating content that speaks to your ideal client on a deep level and isn't just generic. Another timeless foundational principle is core messaging. We talk a lot about that over the years. So identifying your core message or we've talked a lot about talking logo as well. And so that's really identifying what makes you unique, but also what messaging resonates with that ideal client.

That is still incredibly important today, but it's also important to take that messaging and train your AI tools of choice on that messaging as well. So again, you're not creating generic content, you're creating content that speaks to your ideal clients with the messaging you've identified is really important. And so those foundations are still the same, but the way we're using them is evolving a bit because of the technology that's now available.

John Jantsch (06:48.733)

So, you know, we've, we're all seeing people run into AI and just like, look what it can do, makes life faster, better, cheaper. Um, where do you think the danger of this, that like eyes wide open, you know, jump in and start using the tools? What do you think the danger of that is for many small businesses?

Sara Nay (07:07.987)

It complicates things that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that's already there. It causes so many issues for the internal team or the team using the program, but also for the clients and prospects that you're putting out content to as well. And so it's causing confusion in both of those areas. And so a lot of what I encourage small businesses to do is take a step back.

John Jantsch (07:12.916)

amplifies the chaos that's already there, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:33.767)

And if you've been following duct tape marketing for any period of time, you've heard us say strategy before tactics. But it's now strategy before tactics and technology is the conversation we're having with clients. And so if you're thinking about, okay, we need to be using AI tools instead of just diving into tools first, take a step back and answer some very important questions as to what's the business actually trying to accomplish? What's the marketing strategy look like based on that?

What's the team strategy or what's our current team structure look like? And then you can say, okay, what tools can help us accomplish our goals? And then once you identify what the tools are, you then need to train the tools on your strategy that you would have created to then get to the point where you're ready to execute on them efficiently. So don't dive into tools, take a step back, create the strategy, and then answer the question of what tools are gonna help us get from where we are today to where we're trying to go.

John Jantsch (08:30.936)

So, you know, the fractional CMO plus concept is a big part of our model. what do you tell that small business owner that's got kind of a smaller budget and it's thinking, I really just need somebody to do stuff rather than like, you know, I can't really afford or I, or maybe I'm not big enough to even think about the idea of having fractional leadership. What do you say to that business as to why they need to maybe change their mindset?

Sara Nay (08:55.403)

Yeah, I mean, think, again, I keep going back to AI, but it's causing small business owners or small businesses an opportunity that we haven't had before. so, you previously, let's think of traditional marketing org chart. You would have a CMO in a company and then you would have a lot of different executors under them, essentially. So you'd have like a paid specialist, an email marketing specialist, a social, you know, all of the different channels and categories. That's never really been feasible to small businesses because

they wouldn't even have a budget for a CMO, let alone all the other people that are involved in that story. And so I think the best opportunity that small businesses have is right now in terms of the org chart, because you can bring in a fractional CMO. So you're not paying a full-time salary. You're paying a set fee every single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the overall strategy, managing the budget, owning the metrics.

overseeing all of the marketing department essentially. And then under that fractional CMO, believe instead of, I don't know if we're quite there yet, but the direction I believe we're going is instead of having a specialist in all the different channels, small businesses can have marketing executors that are familiar enough in writing great copy and understanding social media, but they're really systems oriented and technology first people.

where you can bring in AI systems below them to help them execute at a higher level than they've ever been before. And so now you're getting a marketing org chart with all of these different roles that you previously probably couldn't even think about affording as a small business.

John Jantsch (10:35.832)

So going back to the theme of renting, mean, the opposite of renting is owning. and so to a large degree, you know, what you're describing there is kind of that path towards owning your, your marketing, you know, as a business, as opposed to maybe it wasn't even renting. was abdicating like going here, you do it. I don't care what you're doing over there, but how does that change the business owners mindset in terms of.

Sara Nay (10:54.124)

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.262)

people in terms of structure, in terms of process, if they're actually, you know, now they're going to have those people in their organization or they're going to have those functions in their organization. Who manages that? How do they hire for that? Are they, are they bringing in more overhead that makes sense for their business if they're going to start thinking that way, or is this the ultimate path to, truly scaling a business?

Sara Nay (11:16.557)

It obviously depends on the business situation, revenue size, long-term growth goals. And so there's a lot of factors that I would need to consider to answer that specifically. But for me, if you're a small business and you're looking to scale up,

when you're doing a certain level of revenue, you've been in business for a few years, let's say you've passed the 1 million revenue mark, I think it's time to start considering you need marketing leadership of some extent. And so when small businesses scale up to a certain point, if they haven't looked for marketing leadership, the CEO becomes the CMO and they either have marketing experience or they learn marketing. And now it's this necessary evil that

they're having to spend a lot of their time on where they never wanted to become a CMO in the first place. And so if you're scaling up and you have high growth goals, looking for someone like a fractional CMO, I think makes a lot of sense because the whole idea is as the CEO or founder, you stay in your zone of genius. You stay focused on the why behind you building the business in the first place. then you... In selling, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:34.798)

or in selling, you know, stuff that actually is going to make money for the business rather than you having to figure out how to manage the technology.

Sara Nay (12:46.121)

Exactly. And then you bring in a fractional CMO or a marketing leader of some extent that then is tasked with what you identified earlier in terms of managing team, bringing in partners or hiring full-time team, running the technology, building the systems and processes, running the budget and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is really tasked with leading the marketing department and working alongside you to help you reach the specific business goals that you would have laid out.

John Jantsch (13:15.566)

You know, if somebody, whoever you're working with is going to bring you strategy first, you know, as the first step, it doesn't really matter what you call that person, right? What their role is, right? I mean, it's really more the idea of thinking strategy first, isn't

Sara Nay (13:21.901)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.137)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we'll throw out all different terms. I mean, we talk a lot about fractional CMO, but if that feels like too elevated of a term, know, marketing leader, marketing strategist, marketing advisor, you know, the point is what they're doing. They're, leading the marketing initiatives and not just being an order taker.

John Jantsch (13:51.672)

So let's flip to agencies that are listening, because I know we have agencies listening as well. How do they have to shift their mindset to really stay relevant? mean, I think in some agency, you look at some of these agencies that are providing SEO and content and social media, that's their package, right, of done for you services. There might be a time in the very near future where that's just not that relevant.

Sara Nay (14:19.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.423)

or people aren't going to be willing to pay what you need to run a profitable business. So how do agencies need to shift their mindset?

Sara Nay (14:26.705)

Yeah, and there's been a lot of stuff coming out there that I've seen on LinkedIn and different articles about how many agencies are going to shut down in the next few years. I think a lot of that stuff's hard to predict, but I do think if you just keep offering execution, it's a race to the bottom in a lot of cases because small businesses, even if they're not doing it that effectively yet, they are bringing in AI solutions to cut costs in certain areas. And I think that marketing execution is one of those.

areas. And so, you know, I think if agencies keep offering execution as their core services, it's going to be very challenging in the next few years moving forward, because AI is becoming more sophisticated. So you're basically competing against AI in that scenario versus if agencies shift their offering and they step more into this leadership role, where they're, you know, focusing on strategy.

they're elevating team, it can be their own team or it can be internal team, but they're elevating humans essentially with AI systems below them. Then they're working alongside AI versus competing against it.

John Jantsch (15:35.64)

So if I'm a small business owner listening and.

Obviously picking up and reading the book is going to be step one. But what are a couple steps towards taking this ownership mentality that somebody could start this week? If you're stuck in the old kind of way of thinking, here are a couple things you can do this week to start changing your mindset or maybe even changing your marketing.

Sara Nay (16:06.165)

Yeah, of course. There's two things that come to mind right off the bat. One of the first things, and I talk about this in the book as well, is the marketing strategy pyramid. We talk a lot about it at Duck Tape Marketing, but it's really taking a step back and answering some business strategic questions first. So really analyzing what are your business goals? What are your objectives? What's your revenue? Where are you growing towards? What are your mission, vision, values? And so really analyzing some of those things.

And then thinking through what is your marketing strategy to help you move in the right direction. And then thinking through what is your team strategy. So you have to have those two bottom layers of the pyramid first to then think about team. But, know, to the question of how can businesses take back ownership when you're analyzing your team structure, think through like, these internal roles? Are we relying on outsourced vendors? If we're relying on outside outsourced vendors or solutions.

Do we have clarity and confidence and control or ownership as to what they are doing or are we kind of left in the dark? I if you're left in the dark through some of your partnerships, that's when it's time to analyze, does it make sense to continue on with this partnership or is there a way where we can get more ownership and control? So that's where I would start is kind of going back to the basics there and analyzing your current structure, your current relationships, your current team.

and making sure that you have clarity in what everyone is doing.

John Jantsch (17:35.672)

So I'm going to go a little in the weeds here on AI, mainly because it's on everybody's mind right now. There are a lot of some of these agencies that we're talking about are shifting their whole model to being calling themselves AI agencies, where they want to come in and show you how to put in agents and how to automated this and automated that. How do you think small businesses should be looking at?

Sara Nay (17:51.703)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:02.806)

I mean, I don't think we have to convince them that it's not going away, but how do you think they should be looking at getting the most out of AI as really the end to end solution or the end to end assistant at this point that it can be rather than just looking at it as, here's how I can automate stuff and or worse yet, here's how I can fire people and do more with less.

Sara Nay (18:08.909)

Yeah, a big part of that I think is doing an analysis of who's currently on your team and you're not asking the question.

How can we get more work out of them or how can we get them to move faster or be more productive? What you're answering is how can we elevate them to make more of an impact? And so one of the exercises that we've done with our team fairly recently, and this is also in the book as well, is we had everyone on our team analyze what skills are they doing on a regular basis. And then we basically had them identify what are human-led skills that they should continue to focus on, things that light them up, that they love.

And then we also had them identify what skills can be AI assisted and what skills and tasks could be executed by AI. And so we went through that exercise so people could essentially analyze their roles and think about how they could future proof their careers moving forward. And so I think that's a really great exercise for anyone listening as a business leader or for your whole entire team is you should all be thinking about how can we future proof the business as a whole.

And that's a lot of what you and I talk about when we talk about shifting our model in a new direction. But you also need to be considering everyone on your team. How can you help them elevate with AI instead of be replaced by it? And then how can you help them continue to grow and focus on the skills that are becoming more important because of the evolution of AI?

John Jantsch (19:54.414)

talking with Sarah Ney, the author of Unchained. Sarah, I appreciate you spending a few moments to talk about Unchained. Is there a place that you'd invite people to go to find out more about the work you do, of course, but then also the new book?

Sara Nay (20:08.269)

Absolutely, so unchainedmodel.com is the book's website, so love for you to check that out and also connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, my name is Sarah Ney.

John Jantsch (20:18.23)

Awesome, well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days soon out there on the

Sara Nay (20:24.589)

Thank you.

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Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Stacey Hylen, internationally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and author of “Hidden Profits: More Clients and Cash.” Stacey shares actionable insights on how business owners can uncover untapped revenue, raise prices with confidence, and create long-term client relationships—often without spending a dime on new marketing. The conversation covers why mindset is key, how to reposition from commodity to couture, and why small changes (like a single upsell question) can deliver massive results.

About the Guest

Stacey Hylen is a globally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and speaker who has spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs—from solo businesses to Fortune 500s—uncover hidden profits and boost performance. As a former VP for Chet Holmes International and now the author of “Hidden Profits,” Stacey is known for her practical, empowering approach to business growth.

• Website: staceyhylen.com
• Book: hiddenprofitbook.com

Actionable Insights

• Most business owners are too close to their operations to spot hidden profit opportunities—outside perspective is powerful.
• Raising prices is often the fastest path to profit, but it requires a mindset shift toward abundance and owning your expertise.
• Attracting the right clients (and letting go of the wrong ones) leads to higher revenue, less price sensitivity, and more enjoyable work.
• “Profit leaks” are caused by focusing on low-impact tasks and avoiding essential sales and marketing actions.
• Reframing sales as service (helping, not selling) builds confidence and makes it easier to attract and close ideal clients.
• Past clients are a goldmine—reactivation and “come on back” strategies can drive immediate revenue with minimal effort.
• Upsells and cross-sells (“do you want fries with that?”) at the point of sale create easy, recurring profit boosts.
• Every team member—not just sales—can (and should) look for opportunities to help clients and add value.
• Even “commodity” businesses can reposition themselves as unique, high-value partners through better packaging, messaging, and client experience.
• Small changes can have huge impact—one new question or process can increase sales by 40% or more.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 00:54 – Doubling Revenue with Hidden Profits
  Stacey shares how a client reactivated past customers and tweaked pricing for dramatic growth.
• 02:07 – Overcoming the Fear of Raising Prices
  Why mindset and confidence are essential to charging what you’re worth.
• 03:19 – The Power of Narrowing Your Focus
  How strategic positioning and language attract the right (and repel the wrong) clients.
• 04:58 – Spotting and Fixing “Profit Leaks”
  Why low-impact busywork and avoidance hold businesses back from real growth.
• 06:02 – Sales as Service, Not Selling
  Why reframing the sales conversation helps business owners overcome reluctance and get referrals.
• 08:46 – The “Come on Back” Strategy
  How one client had their best month ever by reactivating former customers—even in December.
• 10:30 – The $700,000 Mistake
  The cost of not keeping in touch—and how a single call can recover massive lost revenue.
• 12:53 – The Hidden Profits Framework
  Stacey outlines her step-by-step process for finding revenue you already have.
• 13:47 – Upsells and Cross-Sells at the Point of Sale
  Simple, proven ways to increase average transaction value.
• 15:52 – From Commodity to Couture
  How even price-driven businesses can reposition for higher profits and loyalty.
• 18:00 – Surprising Results with Small Changes
  The story of a 48% sales increase from a single upsell question.

Pulled Quotes

“Most business owners are too close to see the hidden profits in their business. It’s about getting resourceful, not just adding resources.”
— Stacey Hylen

“Sales is service. If you’re great at what you do, you owe it to your clients to help them—and that means being confident about your value.”
— Stacey Hylen

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.55)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Stacey Hylen. She's an international recognized business coach, growth strategist and speaker who spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs uncover untapped revenue and performance in their business. As a former vice president for Chet Holmes International, Stacey has worked with companies ranging from solo entrepreneurs to Fortune 500s. We're going to talk about her new book.

hidden profits, more clients and cash. So welcome to the show, Stacey.

Stacey Hylen (00:35.247)

Thanks John, I'm excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.696)

So you open actually the book with a story, which is always awesome. A business owner doubled their revenue without new marketing spend. Can you break down a little bit of the hidden profit you helped them find and, and maybe also like how they couldn't spot it themselves.

Stacey Hylen (00:54.649)

Yeah, well, the thing is, is that a lot of times when you're a business owner, you're stuck in the day to day doing all the time. so it's really, really hard to see the things for yourself. So the hidden profits came about from when I worked with Tony Robbins and he said during the recession, it's not about a lack of resources. It's about becoming more resourceful.

And so what we looked at is, all right, what are the ways that we can increase? And we looked at the different hidden profits in his business. In this case, he was able to do a come on back strategy to reactivate a bunch of the clients that, that hadn't been in his business for a while and increase his business that way. And then we also looked at tweaking his pricing because this is in a lot of places he was under pricing what he was doing.

John Jantsch (01:45.902)

Yeah, yeah, we could probably talk the whole show about that very thing. I find that especially with service businesses. What would and you probably encountered that a lot, right? So just telling somebody they should raise their prices. Well, it make sense. It's pretty hard for them to sometimes stomach. How do get people around that resistance that they're normally is?

Stacey Hylen (02:07.779)

Well, it's funny because in the book I call that that fear factor, right? The hidden profit of raising your prices because people not being able to raise prices comes from a lack mentality as opposed to abundance mentality. It also comes from not owning your expertise. And so I think one of the big challenges that, that entrepreneurs need to do is to start to own their expertise and to own the outcome that they help create for their client. And when you.

John Jantsch (02:11.746)

Yeah, right, right.

Stacey Hylen (02:37.315)

focus on what the outcome is that you create for your client, then it's a lot easier to say, okay, this is worth charging more for, be willing to, know, sometimes it's baby steps that we have to do, you know, that we raise the price on one particular product or service or program, and then once they get the little bit of confidence, then we, you know, step it up again and again until we get to the right spot.

John Jantsch (03:00.226)

You know, I also find a lot of that comes from them not really being very specific about who they can help. And so they attract a lot of people that don't get the value, don't appreciate their expertise and, consequently are very price sensitive. Would you, would you say that's also another, like getting people to narrow their focus as part of it too?

Stacey Hylen (03:19.331)

Yeah, it's really important. And I think part of that comes from your language when you speak to in your marketing, you know, and really honing in that strategic positioning so that you become the expert that they want to work with. And I think, you know, I had a client here yesterday for a VIP day. And one of the things that was funny is he was saying words that he wanted, you know, to attract the clients and.

None of the words he mentioned were the words in actual prospect would be searching for or looking for in a transformation. So we had to really look at that. And then we also looked at, know, who are those clients that he didn't want and what were the warning signs? Because I think a lot of times, again, coming from a lack perspective versus an abundance perspective, that they think, it's a lead. have to take this client. But when you have a lot of crappy clients, it sucks your energy. It sucks your time.

And it's not a great way to grow your business. Whereas if you have one of your perfect clients that is fun to work with, is willing to invest, like that's a great way to grow your business.

John Jantsch (04:15.278)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:23.244)

Yeah, it's funny, you know, you're in this game very long at all. You know, you can almost, I can almost talk to a client. The first thing they ask me, you know, well, if we go, you're going to be a good client or not. You know, you get really good at sort of recognizing that perfect client behavior, don't you?

Stacey Hylen (04:39.149)

Yeah. And also it's, it's, it's willing to be pay attention to your gut when you hear that, but you're like, Ooh, that's not going to be a good one. And, being willing to just release them and let them go into the wild.

John Jantsch (04:44.118)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (04:52.022)

You identify something as being a problem that you call profit leaks. You want to talk a little bit about what those are?

Stacey Hylen (04:58.991)

Yeah. So one of the things with the profit leaks is that people are focusing on the wrong thing in their business. They're focusing on the minutia in their business that is not helping them create revenue. Right. And so this could be endlessly tweaking your website. could be, you know, anything that is like so much easier to do than actually do some marketing, go out there, talk to prospects, get in front of, you know, places where your perfect clients are.

John Jantsch (05:13.417)

Right

John Jantsch (05:20.204)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (05:26.883)

So I'm sure you see that in all of your work that people just like hide out. And that's really where a lot of those revenue leaks come because they're not taking the action that they need to take.

John Jantsch (05:36.682)

Well, I can go a lot of directions with that. But I think that that's a real issue. A lot of businesses, mean, a of people know how to do something. They got into a business to do it, but they didn't really get into business to go out there and sell to, you know, actually have conversations with people or convince people as they maybe feel like it is. So how do you get people past that? Because I mean, the whole profit conversation kind of breaks down if I can't go out there and get clients.

Stacey Hylen (06:02.691)

The thing is, that I really help my clients shift from seeing sales as selling to helping them see it as serving. And the reason why is if, if I was to ask you, what's your favorite restaurant, you would, what's your favorite restaurant, John? It's easy to say, right?

John Jantsch (06:18.35)

All right, it's Trace Greengroce in case you're listening in Nederland, Colorado. Okay, go ahead.

Stacey Hylen (06:24.565)

Awesome. Awesome. And so you'd like, that's easy because you think, my gosh, I'm going to help Stacey find a great place to eat while she's in Colorado. But the thing is, is your prospects are also having problems and challenges. And if you are really good at what you do and you're an expert at it, then you should be willing to share what you do because you're helping solve a problem for somebody and you're actually serving them. So I think that's really the first step to shift into that.

that confidence and that's where having a coach really helps is because sometimes they have, my clients have to borrow my confidence, both in selling, marketing, and also raising their prices, right? Because those are all confidence issues.

John Jantsch (06:51.02)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:56.056)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:02.604)

Yeah. And I would extend that to referrals too, because a lot of people, even if they have a good customer, they're like, I'm reluctant to ask, you know, for referrals, but it's the same thing. It's like, if, if you're getting like this amazing result, wouldn't you your friend to get that? So it's kind of the same mentality, isn't it? So I should have asked this at the very beginning of the show. But we ought to set, we ought to talk a little bit about people's relationship with the word profit to begin with. You know, a lot of business owners,

don't really think about profit or heaven forbid some actually look at it as a negative thing. And so consequently, and you probably know Mike McCallewitz, my friend that's been on the show a number of times, wrote Profit First. And you you said that a lot of business owners, all they really want to do is pay the bills and pay themselves a salary and, you know, amounts to being a job rather than building an asset. So do you find that you sometimes have to actually set the

Stacey Hylen (07:44.143)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:59.532)

baseline for what profit is and why it's a good thing?

Stacey Hylen (08:03.279)

Sometimes, it depends on the client, right? But I think a lot of times what happens is, you know, the hidden profits are really revenue boosters that go direct line to bottom line profit. And that's the difference in this book. Right, because that's why this book has hidden profits, because there are things that...

John Jantsch (08:04.737)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:08.088)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.108)

Yeah. Yeah. Raise your prices without raising your costs. Right.

Stacey Hylen (08:23.691)

boost your revenue, but because it doesn't increase your cost, you're not doing more marketing or more expense with the strategies in the book. It all goes to the bottom line profit. So it makes it much easier to boost your profit.

John Jantsch (08:26.958)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:36.398)

So if you were gonna walk into a business, and I know every business is different, but have you found there are a couple things that are like, that's the low hanging fruit. Like here's the first thing we're gonna do.

Stacey Hylen (08:46.051)

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing is, know, what do you have for past clients that are currently not doing business with you? Because those people love you, they trust you, and for the most part, you know, you were saying people are shy to do it or hesitant to do it. People are, other than dentists, are hesitant to get people to come back, right? And so.

John Jantsch (09:10.156)

Yeah,

Stacey Hylen (09:11.247)

We want to do a come on back strategy. And I had a client that I talk about in the book that she was taking one of my live hidden profit programs and it was the slowest month of the year for her. It was December. She was selling weight loss. Nobody wants to lose weight in December. It's like time to eat your grandma's cookies, right? So we did, she, she was an action taker and she said, I'm going to do it even though it's December. And I was like, well, this might not be the best month for this hidden profit, but go for it.

John Jantsch (09:26.486)

Right,

Stacey Hylen (09:39.809)

She increased her sales by over 50 % in one month. She had her best month ever in her business by doing that reactivation strategy. And it's because she actually went back to them, gave them permission to come back. And sometimes that's the shyness there is like, you think the client is shy to come back to you because they might've gone off and tried another weight loss product or tried somebody else to fix their car or cut their hair or whatever it is. And you're saying like, Hey, I'd love to have you back.

John Jantsch (09:53.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:01.932)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (10:09.017)

come on back and that works almost every single time to really boost profits very quickly.

John Jantsch (10:15.148)

You know, it's really interesting too, because I think most businesses feel like, they left because they weren't getting what they wanted here or, but people leave for tons of reasons. Right. And so I think for us to assume that it was all about us is probably what holds a lot of people back.

Stacey Hylen (10:30.625)

Yeah, this one, this one is going to be a rider downer for your listeners and watchers. I have a client, we call this the $700,000 mistake. And he was coming to his coaching call and he canceled last minute. And I said, what happened? And he said, well, I had a hundred thousand dollars sale. No, normally a hundred thousand dollars sale. I would be like, let's do our happy dance. And he said, no, Stacy, this was not a happy dance moment. And I said, well, how can a hundred thousand dollars sale not be a happy dance moment? And he said, this client.

John Jantsch (10:34.904)

Okay, let's hear it.

John Jantsch (10:51.084)

Right, right.

Stacey Hylen (11:00.111)

was a past client that for the last seven years has been going to my competitor. And because he had not said, come on back, he lost $700,000 in sales. So I want your listeners to be thinking about that. Like really, there's some hidden profit right there that if you just go back and talk to these past clients, you can be welcoming them back into your business very easily.

John Jantsch (11:26.412)

Well, I think he should have done the happy dance anyway, you know, take what you can get. Okay. He learned a lesson, but take what you can get.

Stacey Hylen (11:33.769)

He learned a very expensive lesson.

John Jantsch (11:38.424)

So in some cases, people left because something was too expensive, their business had changed or something. mean, so how often do you find that the hidden profits might be in saying, hey, we need to relook at all of our products or all of our offerings and repackage or repositioning. How much of creating new profit is sort of reinvigorating what you've already put out

Stacey Hylen (12:01.711)

Yeah, well, when I, I have a mastermind and we have retreats twice a year and that's really like, I would say like six months because we do the retreats every six months. It kind of gives us a time to like deep dive into the business and look at, okay, what's working, what's changed because you're, you know, the markets change, the economy changes. AI has brought in a lot of stuff, right? Like I, recently become a certified AI consultant. like you can look at like.

John Jantsch (12:22.892)

Right. Right.

Stacey Hylen (12:29.817)

How can you refresh your offers to meet what your clients actually want right now? How can you package them differently? How can you drive them to those offers in a way that gets more clients quickly?

John Jantsch (12:45.048)

So you do talk about the hidden profits framework in the book. Is there a way for you to give the high level, here's the step-by-step process?

Stacey Hylen (12:53.581)

Yeah, so what we're looking at is we're looking at where you're not getting the revenue coming in the door. So we talked about the reactivation, the come on back. So that's lost clients that have already worked with you. Another great spot to look at that's a very quick win for most people is do you want fries with that? Right? The upsell. Now, when we were kids, we went to McDonald's and they said, do you want fries with that? And our parents were like, okay.

And now they sell the happy meal, you know, the combo meal that has everything together with it. And they say, do you want to biggie size it or do you want to supersize it? And so a lot of times people are leaving money on the table right there when people have their wallets out. So when people have their wallets out in your business, that's an opportunity for you to say, okay, you're signing up for this. Would you like this? The VIP level support? Would you like this?

John Jantsch (13:37.646)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (13:47.407)

additional thing that will help them solve their problem, help them reach their goal faster. So those are two hidden profit points that are really quick to add into your business without any additional time, money, or, you know, team members to implement them.

John Jantsch (14:03.31)

Let's say you do have a team. I work with a lot of folks that have, you know, even salespeople in organizations, which, you know, their job is to sell more stuff, right? But what you're talking about, the reactivating customers, looking for ways to sell more to, you know, even account managers, say in marketing firms. I isn't that something that really ought to be, or a business ought to look at that as being everybody's job, is to start adding those things?

Stacey Hylen (14:27.725)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I have a long time client. He's been my client for over 15 years. And so what we look at every year is, okay, who are your best clients? What additional products, services, what additional things can help them solve their problems and help their clients reach their goals faster. And then his team, he has salespeople and he has operations people, they are trained to look for.

across opportunities also in that account. Like what else does this client need? What other divisions does this company have that could use our services? Who else could we meet in this company that could connect us to somebody else in the company that also needs our products or services? So absolutely, that's something that should be constantly looked at and also rewarded, right? In terms of not just a sales team, but if you have an operations team that's dealing with the client on a regular basis, they're a really good person to.

John Jantsch (15:16.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (15:24.089)

hear about the pain, to hear about the goals within the company, how they've changed since the person's talked to the salesperson and bring in some additional revenue through that avenue as well.

John Jantsch (15:31.116)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:35.852)

What about companies that feel like, and I run across them all the time, at least people have this mentality. It's like, I'm in this commodity industry. It's all about price. You know, there's, there's really nothing more we can squeeze out of this. Have you been able to help companies like that, or at least that have that mentality think differently?

Stacey Hylen (15:52.259)

That is absolutely, that is one of my favorite things to do is to help clients go from commodity to Couture. And what that means is, you know, if you are competing on price, right? I had a client in the logistics industry, they are competing on price every single day and they're competing against a hundred million dollar, billion dollar companies that are, you know, they have hundreds of salespeople smiling and dialing all day long, sending cold emails, all of that.

John Jantsch (15:56.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:13.826)

Right.

Stacey Hylen (16:22.325)

And my client was a boutique company. He's gone from six to eight figures since we've been working together because we positioned him as this couture brand of helping him solve a problem for his client and get a better result, not saying, Hey, can we quote you on, on shipping? Can we quote you? And so what we've done is we've positioned him as how can we help you increase the client satisfaction on the back end?

John Jantsch (16:32.557)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (16:48.267)

of the transaction once you make a sale in your company. So logistics becomes a value add versus a cost in the business. that also, when you position yourself in that future manner, it also helps the person making that buying decision be more confident changing providers because they're going towards something, not just like making a minute improvement in something or just cutting costs, which often means you're getting less service, less quality.

John Jantsch (17:08.172)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (17:17.398)

Yeah. Well, and they also aren't going to leave you for the next person that's five cents cheaper, right? Because it's like, no way. Have you had any results that that that you've gotten for somebody that even surprised you?

Stacey Hylen (17:22.723)

Right, absolutely, absolutely.

Stacey Hylen (17:30.847)

gosh. Well, I would say that person doing the weight loss in December was a huge one. the other one, I had a client who had an auto parts store who is, you know, had all employees that were elderly and he was complaining about them when he did his intake form and is saying like, this wasn't working, that wasn't working. And it was really all about team. And I said, my gosh, how am going to help him if none of his team will do anything he said?

John Jantsch (17:35.822)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.555)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (18:00.271)

So I said, we're probably gonna have to clean house. And when we got on the call, he said, well, I'm not willing to let anybody go there. We live in this small town. They're not gonna get any other employment. They're family members, church members. So what we did is we did a one question upsell. That was it. And that increased his sales 48 % in one month. And it was just, he was blown away. I was blown away because he had such a hard, you know,

John Jantsch (18:09.347)

Hehehe.

Stacey Hylen (18:29.039)

hill to climb with his employees to actually do something? Just one question at a 48 % increase.

John Jantsch (18:35.278)

You and that's a great lesson too, because sometimes we try to do all these things, right? At one time, and it just kind of overwhelms everybody. Just having that one thing was easy for people to do. And then they probably, when they started seeing success, they probably got a little jazzed in.

Stacey Hylen (18:50.711)

Yeah, yeah, because it's when you get a yes and people are happy, then you want to have more of that. Right. And also the employees had the employer being really happy too, which created goodwill and helped the company culture as well.

John Jantsch (18:53.419)

you

John Jantsch (19:05.774)

Well, Stacey, I appreciate you taking a moment to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work, and obviously pick up a copy of Hidden Profits?

Stacey Hylen (19:14.807)

Yeah, thanks for asking. This has been great. I can be found at staceyhyland.com and I'm Stacey Hyland everywhere on the internet. And then if you want to get on the early bird list for the book, you go to hiddenprofitbook.com and we're going to have a bunch of resources there. I have some AI stuff that's kind of behind the scenes that I've, you know, plugged in with the hidden profits. So that's going to be great. So go to hiddenprofitbook.com to get that as well.

John Jantsch (19:42.24)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by and hopefully we'll run into you on these days out there on the road.

Stacey Hylen (19:46.932)

Thanks John, have a great day.

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