Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn

Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Alex Goldfayn, bestselling author and CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy. They dive into his new book, Outgrow: How to Expand Market Share and Outsell Your Competition, discussing why proactive outreach is the key to consistent sales growth—especially in a challenging economy. Learn how simple habits, the right mindset, and strategic action can help you stand out, take market share, and build a sustainable sales culture.

About the Guest

Alex Goldfayn is a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author and a globally recognized sales consultant. He runs the Revenue Growth Consultancy, helping B2B organizations increase annual sales by 15–30% through proven, proactive systems.

• Website: runoutgrow.com
• LinkedIn: Alex Goldfayn

Key Takeaways

• 95% of salespeople are reactive—proactive outreach is the differentiator.
• The main blocker isn’t laziness, but fear of rejection.
• The COPE mindset (Confidence, Optimism, Positivity, Enthusiasm) is foundational.
• Track sales actions, not just results—“swing the bat.”
• “Did You Know?” questions convert at 20% and drive line-item growth.
• Everyone who faces customers contributes to sales.
• Storytelling and recognition drive cultural change more than incentives.
• Systems and repetition make growth habits stick.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 00:52 – The 95% reactive trap and how to break free
• 03:40 – Proactivity in tough economic climates
• 05:02 – Salespeople’s fear of rejection explained
• 08:04 – The power of the COPE mindset
• 12:20 – Tracking “swings” over “hits” in sales
• 14:23 – Using “Did You Know?” questions to add revenue
• 17:28 – Non-sales teams as a proactive sales force
• 19:25 – From sales training to sales action
• 22:28 – Recognition and storytelling as culture drivers

Pulled Quotes

“You cannot react your way to market share growth. The only way to grow is to take it—and that requires proactivity.” – Alex Goldfayn

“People just want to be helped. Not once has a customer ever said, ‘I’d rather you not make my life easier today.’” – Alex Goldfayn

“Behavior follows thinking. We can’t outsell our mindset.” – Alex Goldfayn

Learn more about Alex’s work at runoutgrow.com. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast for more expert insights on business growth and marketing strategy.

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.006)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance. My guest today is Alex Goldfein. He's a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author, one of the most sought after sales speakers in the world. He's the CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy, one of the top grossing solo consulting firms in America, generating 7.5 million annually. His clients, primarily B2B organizations, implement simple, proactive actions that drive 15 to 30 % sales growth.

every year and we're gonna talk about his latest book out grow how to expand market share and outsell your competition. So welcome to show Alex.

Alex Goldfayn (00:39.721)

Hi John, thank you sir. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:42.06)

I want to unpack one of the core themes of the book. You talk about transforming reactive companies into proactive ones. Tell me little bit about that thinking.

Alex Goldfayn (00:52.91)

Well, I think, you know, over 415 clients over about 22 years that I've done these outgrow revenue growth initiatives with, what I've realized is about 95 % of all companies and also 95 % of all salespeople are generally reactive, meaning we take what's in coming. and when you take what's in coming and most companies that have been around.

some history are very good at this, like world class, right? When I arrive at an organization, usually they are world class at this reactive work, which is basically customer service work. Well, the only way to really grow in terms of volume growth, not inflationary growth, not acquisitive growth, but organic volume sales growth, the only way to do that is we have to take market share.

We have to, uh, take business from another company that already has the business. And the only way to compete for and take market share is to be pro active. You cannot react your way to market share growth. You can't do it. You're just, when you're reactive, you're just, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships, sinking tide sinks all ships. Uh, and you're just moving with the current. You go where the economy takes you.

And that is 95 % of all companies and 95 % of all salespeople. And that's actually good news because it means that it's really easy to stand out in that crowd. It's really easy to do better. And as a result, it's really, really easy, John, to grow.

John Jantsch (02:45.806)

Yeah, and you know, in this particular moment in time, starting the third quarter of 2025, as we record this, I'm seeing a lot of companies that it's even worse because they're not even even if they're unhappy right now, they're like not reaching out because there's a lot of uncertainty. And it's like, I'm just gonna stay put. So I mean, I would suggest that your proactive is probably even more necessary because there's probably less incoming right now.

Alex Goldfayn (03:11.62)

Not only is it more necessary, it works better now because of exactly what you said, because literally nobody's reaching out now. So outgrow proactivity works really, really well in good economies because people have money to spend and we can go to them and say, hey, what are you spending your money on? May I help you with that? I'd love an opportunity to help. But in a bad economy, John, because of exactly what you said, people sit around and your competition is like, I'm not gonna call them.

John Jantsch (03:15.202)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (03:40.506)

now, especially now, I'm not going to pitch them, you know, for more products or more services now in this economy. I'm telling you, when you call a customer and say, I was thinking about you, how's your family? What are you working on that I can help you with? Or perhaps what are you doing with my competition that I can help you with? And this is somebody, you know, does somebody have a nice relationship with? when you call somebody like that, John, you're the only one in that person's life.

John Jantsch (03:59.16)

Thank

John Jantsch (04:03.0)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (04:09.943)

doing that. Nobody else is doing it, especially now. So talk about standing out from the crowd and how easy it is. Just show up because nobody is.

John Jantsch (04:20.974)

I think I know the answer to this, but tell me a little bit about the term outgrow. What are you trying to project with that?

Alex Goldfayn (04:29.292)

Yeah, well, we want to outgrow the market. We want to outgrow the competition. We want to outgrow the average. We want to outgrow the company's own history year to year, you know, in terms of growth. And again, the way to do that is through taking market share. And the way to take market share is to be proactive.

John Jantsch (04:50.484)

So looking a little bit back to one of your very first things as saying that, 90 % of the folks just wait around. I mean, is that another way of saying that 90 % of salespeople are lazy?

Alex Goldfayn (05:02.198)

No, it's another way of saying that 90 or 95 % of salespeople have tremendous discomfort and fear with communicating with customers and prospects when nothing is wrong, which is my definition of proactivity. If somebody says, what do you mean by proactive? I mean, when nothing is wrong, when the price isn't going up, which is when salespeople call, when you need the payment, which is when customers hear from salespeople.

John Jantsch (05:20.225)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (05:31.258)

When you can't get them the order on time, which is when customers hear from salespeople, right? People only hear from people when something rises to the level of urgency to make the call. And so this communication, this proactive communication is when nothing is wrong. So that's my definition of productivity. And it's not laziness. It's intense and severe discomfort with bothering the customer, annoying the customer, taking their time and probably hovering above all of that, even higher.

is discomfort and fear of rejection. Fear of rejection. If I call them about this other offering, they might tell me no into my ear hole. And that's an intense personal rejection, right? And that's what we're trying to avoid. We humans, and you and I are too, we will do anything possible to avoid that kind of rejection.

including going out and asking for the business.

John Jantsch (06:32.428)

Yeah. You know, back, back when I was just getting started, I had a routine on, Fridays. I would just pick up the phone and call five people. I was not trying to sell anything. I was not trying to do anything. And I can't tell you, I used to laugh. In I wrote a big blog post about this, that about half the time one or two of those phone calls, would, would start with, I was just meaning to call you. And it was like, okay.

Alex Goldfayn (06:57.027)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:00.162)

Get out my order pad. It was amazing.

Alex Goldfayn (07:02.201)

That's it. That's it. When you show up when nothing is wrong, you are saving the customer from having to think about it again. Whatever is in their head, whatever the need might be. If you don't call them like you just shared, they're going to have to think about it more, probably repeatedly, because once usually doesn't do it. You don't think about something and then do it typically. You think about something many times and then you might do it, but you might not. And it's incredibly valuable.

John Jantsch (07:06.35)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (07:30.819)

to do what you just described. And that's why my clients, and I've had tens of thousands of salespeople go through this and run these processes that we're talking about. We constantly hear from people, why will I have you? Or I'm so glad you called, can you please check on this for me? Product, service, whatever it is.

John Jantsch (07:52.227)

Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that this is just a, like, this is a habit, this is a system or is it cultural in an organization or is it all the above? Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:04.407)

Yeah, you need both. So I say that outgrow is two thirds mindset work because, you know, behavior always follows thinking and we can't outsell our mindset. So if we think we're bothering the customer, we're going to sell accordingly. But if we think it's our obligation to help the customer and they want our help because they're better off with us than with the competition who isn't as good as us, then we sell that way. We sell as though

John Jantsch (08:20.792)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:32.289)

we have a lot more value for the customer. So it's two thirds mindset work. In Outgrow, we have an acronym called COPE, John, COPE, confidence, optimism, positivity, and enthusiasm. And we need those mindsets because we have to bring them to the salespeople that we work with. We have to bring them to the organization. So culturally, in Outgrow organization that runs Outgrow,

becomes more cope, becomes more confident, more optimistic, more positive, more enthusiastic. And when you are those things, it's much easier to make proactive calls, to offer additional products, to follow up on quotes and proposals, and to ask people what else.

John Jantsch (09:17.55)

How, how ready does this, does a person using this system need to be for, if I start with a call with, just want to see if there's anything I could help you with. I sell widgets, but the guy tells me, you know what, we just fired our accounting firm. We're really screwed. How prepared do I have to be to say, you know what, I think I can help you with somebody, you know, unrelated to me, I'm not going to make any money off of this, but I think I can help you. mean, how prepared or, or, or how much of your system do you think?

relies on just being the person who solves problems.

Alex Goldfayn (09:50.988)

think people just want to help people. And I also think our starting position is people just want to be helped. You're calling your customers, your prospects. People just want to be helped. That's starting point number one. Then when we are showing up, we are simply offering to help people, which is what they want. John?

Over a hundred million outgrow actions, log, tracked and analyzed over 23 years by over 400 clients. So we log our activities and then we see the, you know, with the responses, the results, the outcomes. Um, not one time, not once has any customer ever said, I'd rather you not make my life easier today. Has it happened once people just want to be helped. if you're calling to sell a product and somebody has a need that you don't provide.

Well, then try to help them. Common sense, you know, human relationship stuff. in fact, I would argue that already happens. You know, if you're watching this right now, how many times does one of your customers ask you for something that you don't offer them? And you went and found a way to get it for them. Maybe you connected them to your competition. Even maybe you went to your competition and got what they needed for them. That happens all the time. And when you do that, the customer remembers it.

forever.

John Jantsch (11:17.774)

Well, and, and, know, once you've, I've, I've seen this all the time. Once I've, once I've got that trust, um, you know, I want to keep it. Um, and I keep it by just not, not allowing them to call anybody else, right. I'm the only one that they would call regardless of what their problem is. And, and either it takes a little extra work sometimes, you know, your stuff, you're not going to get paid for directly, but, um, as you've seen in, your research, uh, pays off time and time again, speaking of, uh, research.

how would a company set up?

measuring this, you know, because you might make 10 of those calls and nothing really happens today. you know, so now the sales person's like, you know, that's, that's not really paying off. you know, is there a way to measure you talk about them actions? think, I think that's what you called them. you know, you know, these actions, is there a way to then turn them into a system of KPIs so to speak that, that, you know, that doubt do kind of motivate people to say, this works.

Alex Goldfayn (12:08.0)

Yeah, yeah, outgrow actions. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:15.754)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:20.342)

Yeah, so in the book, there are scorecards and metrics that we use all over at examples. And I don't know if you can see our video right now. You can see a couple of baseball bats behind me and we call it swinging the bat. So we don't track the hits and outgrow. We track the swings because we know what the batting averages are. So we are simply asking outgrow participants who we call out growers.

John Jantsch (12:23.746)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (12:48.854)

We are asking this. These are people who face customers for you. We're asking them to try to take our act to take our actions because we know, you know, in baseball you can hit the ball exactly right, dead on, and it flies right out of the fender and it's an out. And sales is the same way. You can do everything right and hit the ball perfectly. And then, you know, getting the win is largely out of our control. You can't really control if the customer is in a good mood.

You can't really control if the customer has an itch when you're calling to scratch. can control making my call, but I can't control if they need it in that moment. can't control the timing. the other thing we know is we need eight or nine nos for every yes that we got in sales. you, if you win 10 to 20 % of the time in sales, you're one of the best. baseball, you can fail 70 % of the time and go to the hall of fame.

In our work, we fail more than that.

John Jantsch (13:47.118)

Yeah, I don't know as good as pitching is these days, Alex. I'm going to say it's, you know, seven and a half times now.

Alex Goldfayn (13:53.955)

I know it's dropping, isn't it? I know. These days, 250 is a good batting average, right, in baseball? We were both baseball fans. We were chatting about that before we started our conversation here. Anyway, we do track the efforts because we know what the success rates are. You know, I'll give you an example. We have a technique called the did you know question, and we have another technique called the reverse did you know question. Both of these are detailed in the book.

John Jantsch (14:13.422)

Yep.

John Jantsch (14:19.853)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Goldfayn (14:23.394)

So the did you know question or DYK, did you know, is you suggesting an additional product or service to your customer that they don't already buy from you. They probably buy it somewhere else. They probably need it. They probably buy it from your competition, service or product. And so what we know statistically is that 20 % of those close, 20 % become a new line item. So if I say to you, hey, John, did you know I do keynote speeches? What about longer workshops? How about one-on-one coaching?

Of course, I work with organizations. I ask you five of those, and it's going to take me 20 seconds, maybe, one will close and turn into a new line for us to work on. And so let's say somebody listening to us has 10 salespeople. And each one of those 10 asks five digital questions and they're tracked. We do enter them into a system. We have an outgrow tracking form. a simple web form. You enter it in and at the end of the week, you get data back from us. We send the data back to you. It's all automated.

Um, 10 people ask five digital questions a day. That's 50 a day, 250 a week, a thousand a month, 12,000 a year. If my math is right, that's top of my head. 12,000 digital questions a year. If we can get 10 people to give us 20 seconds a day.

20 % of 12,000, that's the success rate, is 2,400 new line items. That's a fact. It's not, I hope they'll add 2,400 new line items. If they can get five Did You Know questions in 20 seconds from 10 people a day, every day, that's where the complexity comes. That's the hard part. Not asking the Did Knows, it's the choreography. It's doing it all the time, every day, they will get 2,400 new.

John Jantsch (16:07.726)

Yeah

Alex Goldfayn (16:12.032)

line items, then the question becomes how much money per line item and how many times a year will that new thing be purchased? Cause many people sell things repeatedly. It could be monthly, could be quarterly. It could be twice a year. You do the math almost always five digital questions a day gets you to millions of dollars in new revenue as a fact, statistically for sure. If you can get five digital questions a day.

John Jantsch (16:13.634)

me.

John Jantsch (16:37.356)

And I bet you every salesperson listening has had an experience where they walked into a client's office and the client said, yeah, we just did this new thing over here. And then they said, did you know that we do that? Right.

Alex Goldfayn (16:48.792)

And then you know what you hear is you hear, do that? I didn't know you did that. And you're like, dude, I just told you that I do that like two weeks ago. I know it was you because we were talking to each other just like we are now. And you had the exact same reaction two weeks ago. I didn't know you did that. Now I'm telling you again, two weeks later, you still don't know. So the takeaway for us salespeople is just because you tell somebody something doesn't mean they know. It means you told them doesn't mean a register doesn't mean they remember.

John Jantsch (17:05.518)

me.

John Jantsch (17:18.616)

So this is a good segue to non-sales department folks, right? I mean, how can they contribute to this kind of proactive sales culture? Sounds like they could be asking did you know?

Alex Goldfayn (17:22.615)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (17:28.096)

A hundred percent. mean, we're constantly working with customer service people, managers, frontline people. what, what it develops, you know, clients have called it a non-traditional sales force. even people like project managers, if you're in construction, client execs or, or, you know, engineers and architects who are like, didn't become an engineer to be a used car salesman. Alex, thanks dude. But that's not for me. And again, mindset work. You're not selling, you're helping.

John Jantsch (17:43.672)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Goldfayn (17:57.762)

People need more help from you. So yes, it is for anybody who faces customers, who can ask a, did you know question or two on the calls, even that are incoming, you know, proactive calls are a big part of our work. But if they come to you, if you have a counter operation or a sales floor of some kind, or if you're just customer service picking up the phone all day, you can say, do you need this? How are you on that?

We just got some of this in and ask your DigiNose.

John Jantsch (18:30.531)

So does that need to be in an SOP somewhere so that everybody's trained on it? Or is it more of a look for moments of truth?

Alex Goldfayn (18:39.751)

It's more change the mindset, make them confident and optimistic and positive and enthusiastic, and then say to them, please ask five a day because that's what we're doing now. does, you know, it's, it's warm and fuzzy above all it's positive work because we're helping customers more, but it needs tracking and accountability or else it stops. It doesn't keep going. It stops.

John Jantsch (19:09.528)

So how do you get this ingrained into an organization? Because I'm guessing, you know, they can come to one Alex's amazing workshops, get all the good ideas, and then go back to back to the shop. And it's like, we do it for a week. mean, how do you make it a habit?

Alex Goldfayn (19:19.989)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (19:25.045)

Right. Well, we, you know, you just said the key word habit. we say outgrow sales doing not sales training, because as you just said, sales training, don't grow revenue. Sales training tells people stuff probably that they already know. And then they go back to their reactive life. And you know, in sales, we have to do things to make money. We can't know stuff. We have to do stuff to make money.

John Jantsch (19:29.774)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:43.682)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:52.93)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (19:53.88)

There are some professions that can make money by knowing things. We're not one of them. We have to do stuff that we know. So, you we engage with clients for typically three to five years, And so we have a launch year where the work begins. It takes us about 90 days to create their proactive program. Then we teach it. It's a one-day workshop typically just for that client, just for that client's people. It's not open. It's just theirs. So it's a private.

John Jantsch (19:58.606)

the

John Jantsch (20:06.99)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (20:23.287)

engagement. And then they begin this weekly cadence of the leader of the effort literally asks for or prescribes some target actions for the week. For example, this week, please give me five proactive phone calls to people that you haven't talked to in six months or more. That's specific. Five, did you know questions and five quote follow ups. It's three sets of actions, 15 things for the week. Then people go do it.

Step two, step three is they log it into our system. Step four is we put out data and we show them the scorecard. Just tracking efforts. Who tried and who didn't? Who cares and who doesn't? And then we put out success stories. We put out wins, we tell the wins, we tell the success stories in the words of the people who submitted them. That's five step sort of feedback loop that happens every week. Next week, they make a new assignment of actions.

John Jantsch (21:17.89)

you

Alex Goldfayn (21:22.259)

At 30, 60, and 90 days, we visit with them and do web meetings to review the data, to tell success stories to the group verbally. People actually speak their stories to each other, ask each other questions. Then we follow up with them in the next six months as well. So over a nine month period in the launch year, we are with them seven times. nobody cares what the consultant wants. The salespeople don't care.

John Jantsch (21:36.866)

Yeah.

Mm.

Alex Goldfayn (21:50.732)

what the outside advisor wants. They only care what their leadership wants. People only do what they think is important to their boss. So this work, as much as anything, is about, we coach the leaders. The leaders then have to do the accountability and the implementation and the buy-in work and the maintaining of energy with the people who are taking the swings and doing the outgrow work.

John Jantsch (22:17.996)

Yeah. I, know, that, getting them telling stories to each other, that sort of peer pressure almost that that puts on is probably a really powerful aspect.

Alex Goldfayn (22:28.215)

It does a few things. know, and all the research shows, John, that recognition is a more effective tool to make change with, to change behavior with than money is. Recognition is more powerful than giving somebody some money in private. The reason is that one, the person feels proud. You know, they're being recognized, they get to tell their story. Two, other people, it makes it impossible for them to say, this doesn't work here.

John Jantsch (22:33.87)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (22:56.278)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (22:56.683)

Cause here's stories about it working here. Three, those people aspire to be recognized next. Four, and the last thing, it teaches the work. It teaches what works, right? In the words of the happy salespeople, the successful people, it's education, peer to peer, not from the top down, peer to peer education.

John Jantsch (23:02.286)

Yep.

John Jantsch (23:07.31)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:19.736)

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Alex, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there anywhere you'd invite somebody to connect with you, learn about your work, obviously, learn about the book.

Alex Goldfayn (23:32.245)

Yeah, thank you, John. They can get the book on Amazon or wherever they buy books. Barnes and Noble has it. Books A Million has it. Anywhere books are sold. Actually launched as the number two best selling business book in America behind only Atomic Habits. I was able to outsell everybody except for Atomic Habits, of course.

John Jantsch (23:51.022)

That's only been number one for what, like six, seven years?

Alex Goldfayn (23:54.281)

Right. Well, it's good company, I guess. And then if you want to learn more about Outgrow and the revenue growth that we do, please visit runoutgrow.com.

John Jantsch (24:12.046)

Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you out there at Wrigley field or something.

Alex Goldfayn (24:18.572)

Thank you so much for having me go Cubs. appreciate that, John. Thanks for the Cubs. out.

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AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing

AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes Andy Crestodina, co-founder and CMO of Orbit Media Studios, to explore the rapidly changing world of digital marketing. Andy shares practical insights on using AI for content strategy, analytics, and website optimization—while emphasizing the enduring importance of quality, relationships, and human creativity. The discussion covers everything from AI-powered audience simulations to the evolving role of SEO, and how marketers can cut through the noise to focus on what really matters.

About the Guest

Andy Crestodina is the co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios, a top-rated digital agency in Chicago. A recognized authority on content strategy, SEO, and web analytics, Andy is celebrated for his ability to make complex marketing topics accessible and actionable. He’s the author of “Content Chemistry,” a sought-after speaker, and a regular contributor to leading marketing publications. Andy’s hands-on approach and innovative thinking have made him a trusted guide for marketers navigating digital transformation.

• Website: orbitmedia.com
• LinkedIn: Andy Crestodina

Actionable Insights

• The future of marketing will involve testing content and strategies with AI-generated audience personas before launching to the real market.
• AI’s biggest long-term value is improving quality and performance, not just efficiency or cost-savings.
• Human relationships, creativity, and high-touch service will always set great brands apart from “good enough” automation.
• Content that stands out will be driven by strong points of view, original research, collaboration, and highly visual formats.
• The SEO landscape is shifting: informational content will see less traffic from search, while commercial intent and “visit website” keywords remain essential.
• LinkedIn newsletters and platform-native content are quickly outpacing traditional SEO for B2B visibility.
• Marketers should use analytics for actionable insights—such as CTA performance, video engagement, and conversion rates—rather than generic dashboards or reporting.
• AI can help uncover hidden data trends and quickly transform insights into new campaign ideas, but quality still requires human oversight and creativity.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:10 – AI Personas and the Future of Marketing
  Andy predicts marketers will soon use AI-generated “synthetic audiences” to test ideas before launch.
• 03:30 – Focus on Quality, Not Just Efficiency
  Why the real opportunity is in improving performance, not just saving time.
• 05:48 – The Limits of AI in Design
  Where automation can help creative teams—and where pixel-perfect service still matters.
• 09:39 – Content Creation: AI vs. Originality
  The danger of “good enough” content and why strong opinions and research win.
• 11:21 – SEO’s Shifting Role
  How commercial-intent keywords and platform-native content are now the best route to visibility.
• 15:40 – Analytics That Matter
  Andy’s favorite ways to use GA4 and AI for real business insights, not just reports.
• 21:06 – The Coming Age of Automated Client Interactions
  Imagining a near future where AI agents help qualify leads, prep sales teams, and remove friction where clients want it.

Pulled Quotes

“AI’s real value isn’t just efficiency. It’s about pushing performance and improving quality.”
— Andy Crestodina

“Content strategy is about to have a great moment—as the tide goes out, strong opinions, research, and collaboration will stand out even more.”
— Andy Crestodina

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.346)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Andy Crestodina. He's a recognized authority in digital marketing, co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios and an influential voice on content strategy, SEO and website optimization. With two decades of hands-on experience, Andy is known for breaking down complex marketing tactics into practical, actionable steps, my kind of guy.

He's a sought after speaker and the author of content chemistry and a regular contributor to leading industry publications. So Andy, welcome to the show.

Andy Crestodina (00:38.136)

Thanks for having me, John. Glad to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.438)

We have known each other about each other, whatever the definition is for many years. and I just discovered this the first time you've been on my show. So why don't you come back like weekly now.

Andy Crestodina (00:45.259)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (00:51.896)

I would never say no. I'd hang out with you all day, John, if I could.

John Jantsch (00:56.469)

So let's, let's jump into AI. mean, what the heck? What are we 41 seconds in? Where do you see it making the biggest real world impact for marketers today? I know that's a pretty big question.

Andy Crestodina (01:02.583)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (01:10.924)

No, I think about it a lot. I think that probably the future of marketing is lowering risk and cost by building synthetic members of a target audience and then testing content, pages, calls to action strategies with that AI persona. So, Sims, like running little, making a thing and getting feedback on it before you put it in the market, because I think it's likely, it seems to me that we'll look back at this era and say,

Wow, super primitive. You used to just make a thing and make it live and hope for the best and check it later. Probably not in the future. We'll do it in a bit more sophisticated way.

John Jantsch (01:50.894)

That's really interesting. You know, I hadn't really thought about that, that idea, because I think so many people are focused on automations and efficiencies and getting rid of people, you know, even. But, I mean, you're obviously, I mean, I, I'm really of the camp that it's going to change some things around in terms of people, but I think it also is, you know, they're already seeing it creating some demand in some areas for people.

Andy Crestodina (02:03.186)

No. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:18.946)

that didn't exist before. is the concern that, was it Sam Altman that said like 95 % of marketing or white collar jobs will be gone in five years?

Andy Crestodina (02:25.953)

Yeah.

You

Andy Crestodina (02:33.066)

Yeah, I think there's, I'm going to stay out of the prediction game and wondering, but, I'll tell you what I'm here for and have been from the beginning and you too, it's, don't, I don't wake up in the morning hoping to save 10 minutes or half an hour. I want to do great work. I want to see the performance of that work. I want to know that I'm, that I'm doing quality work. I want to see the, the feedback and the performance of everything in the data.

So really everything I've ever done with AI, and this is hundreds of experiments, half by day on Saturday was building a custom GPT and testing it. But everything that I've done is really just been about trying to improve quality. And if it turns out to be faster, that's lovely. But what we're all trying to do is to drive an outcome. So I think a lot of marketers are overemphasizing efficiency and speed.

John Jantsch (03:09.026)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (03:30.641)

and missing big opportunities to use it to push performance.

John Jantsch (03:36.002)

Yeah. one of the, ironically, one of the, think one of the enemies of quality is that we got so much on our plate, right? And I think that even quality relationships, I mean, I'm finding that if there's a lot of stuff that had to be done, but let's face it, it was grunt work, you know, that had to be done. And I do think that some people are feeling like, Hey, if I get that off my plate, it kind of frees my head up. And, know, even like I say, for, for more relationship building and

I think that's where quality is gonna come from, isn't it?

Andy Crestodina (04:06.762)

Absolutely. So it will give you a free hand to work harder on those, you know, the conversations you're having, prioritizing offline experiences, being part of communities, you know, just taking care of the people around you. But the one thing that I've been doing with a lot, and this was my very last call, talking to a client.

looking for opportunities to make these pages better, stronger, faster, more detailed and comprehensive. It's for a higher ed program. And we just gave Chad to PT the persona and gave it the page and said, we're looking to make this a more comprehensive page. Give us ideas. The very first idea was fantastic. It's like, which program is right for you. What? Wait, how? And the meeting sort of paused. Like everyone kind of held their breath for a second and asked, like, did we not?

do that? Wait, we didn't do that. Why didn't we do that? And there were several others, like three or four things. Yeah, so AI-powered gap analysis is one of my favorite things, but they're always best discovered through relationships and real-world human conversation.

John Jantsch (05:10.221)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:17.304)

So a lot of orbit media's work is or has been designed or at least design was an element of it. How do you feel about the design creative process right now? I think there's a lot of people trying to create tools that can automate a lot of things in that space. Where do you, do you, do you feel like, mean, there's, there's some really awful stuff coming out through that. mean, how do you feel about that space right now, where it is today and where you see it going?

Andy Crestodina (05:23.522)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (05:40.792)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (05:48.226)

Well, design for interactive is a kind of a turning point happening now because these tools like Figma, where you're designing it somehow in a context where it's already responsive and the front end programming for things that web teams are building is sort of half done. Now, kind of like writing or image generation, the code generated by AI still requires a lot of review. No one's just grabbing it and assuming it's all

perfect, it's not. So there's a big gain there in the handoff between designers and programmers, but not, you know, there's still plenty of work to do. The other one I think is in design. What do you hire? What do you get when you hire a web company? Partly you want service, you want someone to listen to you, you want accountability, you want a thought partner and you want pixel perfection. I don't think AI is there. don't think that if you, brands big and small.

want to work with designers to get the thing to look just like they want it to look. The state of AI for UX, it all feels like these long shot prompts. It's just like, hope something good comes back and you can't really ask it to fine tune. It's just creating another one each time. don't know. So design for simple things, design direction, great, but not for pixel perfection.

John Jantsch (07:19.054)

I'm going to question how much of the market actually wants or understands pixel perfection. mean, aren't there isn't there a significant amount of the market that's like, that's good enough.

Andy Crestodina (07:29.836)

I'm sure there is. It's not mostly our audience. I had a 40 minute call with a client about how this circle, the brand is everything. And the edge of the circle needs to be a little bit closer to the edge of the box on both mobile and desktop. There are still lots of people who want their fingerprints on their design. I understand that. I don't think that.

John Jantsch (07:30.894)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (07:56.094)

Visitors care that much about the number of pixels between the circle and the edge of the box but so yeah, if you're looking for good enough or a great start or here's the You know a giant step in the in a good direction. It's awesome but but people really do like service and there's a Special thing that happens like you said about relationships, you know when creative teams work together to solve problems with clients and and leaders

John Jantsch (08:26.348)

Yeah, I I personally, again, I wouldn't put myself out there as being on the front line of image creation or whatnot with some of the tools, but some of the stuff I've done with it, I mean, every now and then it's like, yeah, that's okay. And then every now and then it's just like, that's like, that person has no face. How can I use that?

Andy Crestodina (08:43.96)

It's changing fast. It's changing fast. Image generation. I sort of wish I could go back and I would have put in the same prompt every month just to sort of see the evolution of it because it's improving quickly. But yeah, don't look too closely at hands. Text is still a problem. It's getting much, much better. But halfway through here at 2025, there are long shot prompts, let's be honest.

John Jantsch (09:00.696)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:11.618)

Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of maybe that's good enough, let's talk about content creation. I think a lot of people, that was probably the first use case for many people is, look, this can write this blog post for me. I think a lot of people are starting to find out that that's just not going to cut it. In fact, there, you know, I won't go as far as saying the old Google penalty thing, but I think that they're being penalized in the eyes of everything that's reading the content today.

Andy Crestodina (09:39.762)

Yeah, I don't see a reason to write an article, to publish an article if AI can create it because your target audience can write that same prompt and get that same article. That's in fact the last thing you should publish. So for the duct tape marketing audience and fans of yours and people who read my stuff, I think it should be obvious that the difference between AI generated, just garbage and

John Jantsch (09:45.356)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (10:05.72)

quickly made stuff in medium quality or the boring taste like water articles. And strong points of view, original research, deep content, like taking a stand, collaborative formats like we're doing now. This stuff is going to be even more different in the future. I think that content strategy is going to have a great moment here as the tide goes out and all these marketers just look like it becomes really clear.

No one's ever going to read that again. Whoever's byline that was just lost reputation. So yeah, strong opinion, original research, collaborative formats, highly visual content. These will feel more different than ever. So it's like influencers and video. These things will be, I think, more effective in the future than even they are today.

John Jantsch (11:00.76)

So as I listen to describe that, you know, the old game used to be, I mean, content and SEO or search visibility, certainly we're very married together. And as I listen to you describe that, mean, it really, I mean, is keyword ranking just not really a thing anymore? It's not important anymore?

Andy Crestodina (11:21.353)

Thank you for asking that. I'm seeing so much about this and I'm really excited to give this answer. Everyone needs to separate in their minds these two types of key phrases. People looking for answers are looking for articles. AI overviews will kind of give that person the answer. Click through rates to content marketing for search optimized articles will decline forever. It has been for five years anyway. commercial intent key phrases, what the buyer searches for.

Visit website intent key phrases. There's still tons of them. Separate in your analytics blog posts from your sales pages and then check the changes to traffic and then check the changes to rankings and click through rates and engagement because people who are making big decisions want to look at a website. They're going to click through it no matter what Google puts in their way.

John Jantsch (12:10.06)

Yeah, I think one of the pieces of that puzzle is that they're still getting, in many cases, even this long drawn out, you know, long tail phrase is still being provided in increasingly AI overviews. And so the game then becomes like, okay, I've already filtered. I'm not going to go look 10 places. I'm going to maybe pick one or two of these. So, so the game then becomes showing up in those AI overviews or whatever that looks like. is there a different approach to that?

Andy Crestodina (12:29.464)

For sure. Again, perfect question, John. I love this conversation. There's more to content than search. I see these posts. I don't have time to respond to them all. I'm not in it to like start a food fight, but content marketing is dead.

Because of SEO, that was your only channel. Is that all you ever thought it was about? So this is my number one B2B marketing strategy for content today is of course the LinkedIn newsletter. It was, okay, I've been doing it like now for like five years, but the visibility of my content is literally 10 times what it ever was before. How's that possible? Because I decided it was, you know, a sensible time to build on rented land, you know, because I, I saw this, the, the change is coming and adapted my strategy.

Because I'm now partnering with Big Tech, Google is not in business to help SEOs. But LinkedIn is in business to help content creators and publishers grow an audience on their platform. So no, our typical articles now get literally 10 times the visibility that they ever got before, even though click-through rates from search are down and declining. it doesn't bother me a bit.

John Jantsch (13:49.346)

Yeah, of course, anyone who's not familiar with your work, will say that part of, I think part of the reason, of course, consistency that you've provided, but also, mean, your articles go in, I mean, they're basically master classes. And so, you know, I think that that certainly has something to do with the reason that you're getting so much exposure is it's just terribly valuable.

Andy Crestodina (14:12.588)

That means so much to me coming from you. Thank you, John. But hopefully then that reinforces the point about writing things by hand. I I include contributor quotes in every article. There's almost no scroll depth at any article in which you can't see something like a visual or screenshot or video. I do lots of original research. They're carefully constructed, like very, very structured pieces with bullet lists and subheads and internal linking and...

And I've learned from people like you, like going way back to like, just be super direct and concise and get right to the point and eliminate, you know, omit needless words. You get it.

John Jantsch (14:52.62)

Well, I haven't mastered that one yet, but ask, ask anyone who's edited my, well, I had an editor one time that, on one of my books that said, you know, chapter is great, but it starts with a whole lot of throat clearing. I always remembered that one of my favorite quotes. So you do have been doing a lot. And I think that you just, you enjoy this, the getting into the data. You've been doing a lot with analytics.

Andy Crestodina (15:07.448)

I've been there. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:21.886)

and you know, maybe even suggesting that new ways to look at data, new, key indicators that maybe we haven't been taught to look at what's, what are some of your favorite kind of new ways that you think we ought to be looking at the data? Should we be able to unearth it?

Andy Crestodina (15:40.578)

Well, some of the most important insights waiting for you, literally sitting there just a few clicks away in GA4 are not the most visible. Like you got to go kind of build the thing. Yeah, it takes a minute. Some examples of useful metrics. What is it, or questions to ask and find the answer, then form hypotheses and take action. What is the click through rate on the call to action?

John Jantsch (15:50.166)

Right. Nothing's very visible in JFR.

John Jantsch (16:04.888)

Right.

Andy Crestodina (16:10.624)

on your most on your key pages. You gotta make a path exploration, takes a few minutes. You gotta learn how to do that. That's fine. How does embedding video change the engagement rate on articles? Are there URLs on your website that load with page not found as the title tag? What is the difference in conversion rates for visitors on mobile versus desktop?

John Jantsch (16:29.902)

Thank

Andy Crestodina (16:38.934)

Which of your articles is inspiring visitors to subscribe to your newsletter? Which URLs on your site have declining search traffic? We said a second ago. Are they sales pages? Are they everything? Or is it mostly just your content and articles and guides? These are all extremely useful things to know that can guide strategy and budgets. What's the output from those calories burned? It'll tell you.

But you got to know where to look. I don't do almost any reporting in Google Analytics. I don't build dashboards. I don't just go look at it for its own sake, but I do analysis every day.

John Jantsch (17:19.734)

How much are you taking what might be raw data or at least what you can get out of GA4 and just taking it to AI and say, ask me questions?

Andy Crestodina (17:30.986)

there's one or two use cases that you almost can't do without AI. For example, if you make a report that shows traffic to your thank you pages and then add a secondary dimension for date plus time, export that and AI will make a chart for you showing which day of week people become leads. There is no Tuesday in GA4, but if you give that report to AI, it'll show you. You can have it make a heat map matrix that show what time of day and day of week.

In a colorful little chart, people become leads, people subscribe to your newsletter, people watch videos, anything, any action, any event. So date plus time was useless to me before AI.

John Jantsch (18:12.13)

Yeah, that's interesting. The, the, one of the things that I think AI is quite good at, you know, it's basically a mathematician, right? So I think it's quite good at, at analytics and finding stuff that you're, I mean, it also sometimes makes huge mistakes. But I think that stuff you couldn't even see with your own eyes, I think it really can, can surface pretty quickly, can it?

Andy Crestodina (18:34.828)

Yeah. And then John, the next step. you know, find for me the campaigns that had the highest engagement rates. Okay. It looks at 200 campaigns and finds these ones had highest engagement rates. Now craft 10 new campaigns based on those. The next step after the analysis, that's why AI is really special. It's because, you you could just immediately go from insight to action, or at least brainstorming.

John Jantsch (18:55.052)

Mm. Right.

John Jantsch (19:03.414)

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So where's the noise that you think people ought to be tuning out? The buzzwords, the whatever agentic of the day is.

Andy Crestodina (19:14.968)

So in analytics, I'm exhausted by reporting and love analysis. In SEO, I'm exhausted by the SEO is dead or content is dead, but I love being discovered for commercial intent key phrases. In AI,

John Jantsch (19:25.421)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (19:41.826)

Boy, that's a really just, you're asking a really fun question. I believe that the responses are not nearly as good unless you have really like a conversation with it, that you're chatting with it, that you give it lots more inputs, including personas, and that you are not just having it make stuff for you. I'm exhausted by the write this thing for me. I'm really excited by and motivated by the, what are the gaps in this?

What else could this do? Give me 10 ideas. How could this be better? So I think there's shifts in every category and that there's, you know, do this stuff long enough and you realize like, actually the fun stuff's right over there.

John Jantsch (20:25.39)

So I know you don't want, or you mentioned that you didn't really want to be seen as like the crystal ball, but on, some of this stuff, but how far away are we from the idea where a client or a prospect is going to take an action on our website. And that's going to trigger for agents to do certain things on our behalf and, know, maybe even have a conversation with that person and, and really

You know, there's an element of removing humans from the entire interaction. I how far away are we from that? Or do you think that buyer behavior will dictate that we never go there?

Andy Crestodina (20:57.462)

Hmm.

Andy Crestodina (21:06.84)

I can easily imagine a CRM set up where when there's a new lead that it goes and researches this person and brand and then takes the first step toward potentially disqualifying them and then handling some kind of automated conversation saying like, thanks for reaching out. We probably don't fit, know, but maybe check out these other things instead. Here's some alternatives. Here's some, you know, possible providers.

But if the, but the sort of lead scoring thing, if it works, then it builds a whole guide. It does a bunch of research for you. looks at Dun & Bradstreet or checks out their LinkedIn profile. And then the rep gets this sort of like little coaching session with AI on how to talk to this prospect. And so again, that's exactly what you said a few minutes ago, where is it going to make us more efficient in it by setting aside like these low quality leads and help us prioritize relationships?

John Jantsch (21:49.294)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (22:05.324)

by helping us really prep for this really high stakes conversation. there's a bunch of little uses for AI in there, but yeah, probably every lead should have an appended little sales guide that goes with it with the six questions you should likely ask based on what's happened with them in the news and who you're talking to and what likely challenges are.

John Jantsch (22:24.876)

Yeah. And I think that that's really going to be the key is we'll remove friction where clients want friction removed, right? They want to do their own research. Maybe they want to get their own pricing, you know, things like that. We'll remove that friction, but then we'll get really smart at where do they, where do they actually crave human interaction? You know, not necessarily need it, but, want it. and I think it's that sort of beautiful combination that is going to always be the tight wires.

Andy Crestodina (22:42.328)

and move around.

Andy Crestodina (22:51.944)

I think so. think that's making people feel special, listening, showing them you care. I said it about design a bit ago, certainly in service. I'm not, I'm never going to stop caring and talking to people in my days like today. Eight meetings back to back. Love it. I'll take it. I don't mind a bit. I'm energized by these and conversations just like this one, John.

John Jantsch (23:02.616)

Yeah, awesome.

John Jantsch (23:17.506)

Well, awesome. Well, let's not make it 20 years to the next time. Let's have you back much sooner than that. Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by. Is there anywhere you want to invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work?

Andy Crestodina (23:30.516)

LinkedIn, the blue button says follow, but if you find the menu and go to connect with me and just say, Hey, heard you on duct tape. I'd be more than happy to connect. And then we can, have an interaction and we can prioritize relationships and take care of each other. And that's what this is about.

John Jantsch (23:48.462)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you soon out there on the road.

Andy Crestodina (23:54.21)

Thanks, John.

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Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately

Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

TL;DR

The future of marketing belongs to those who have the courage to stop outdated practices. Cut excessive and generic content, ignore vanity metrics, prioritize authenticity, build trust, let go of comfort zones, use technology wisely, adapt for AI, and focus on community over funnels. Letting go of what’s holding you back creates space for smarter, more impactful marketing.

Table of Contents

• 1. Stop Blasting Audiences with Excess Content and Ads
• 2. Stop Obsessing Over Vanity Metrics and Empty Reach
• 3. Stop Being Generic—Prioritize Authenticity
• 4. Stop Neglecting Consumer Trust and Privacy
• 5. Stop Clinging to Comfort Zones and Old Formulas
• 6. Stop Treating Technology as a Magic Bullet
• 7. Stop Underestimating the AI Revolution—Adapt Instead of Ignore
• 8. Stop Prioritizing Funnels Over Fans
• Conclusion: Make Room for the Bold by Quitting the Old

1. Stop Blasting Audiences with Excess Content and Ads

Why It Matters

The “more is better” approach to content and ads has reached its limit. Consumers are tired of being overwhelmed and are unsubscribing or switching brands to escape the noise. Smart audiences now ignore generic blasts, and most actually want fewer, more relevant communications.

What to Do Instead

• Review your content calendar and remove low-engagement posts or emails.
• Focus on quality over quantity by sending fewer, more meaningful messages.
• Invest more time in understanding what your audience truly values.
• Use AI for insights, but always add a personal, human perspective.
• Run a test by reducing frequency for a month and monitoring engagement rates.

Takeaway: The goal is not constant presence, but memorable impact. Strategize your outreach so every message matters.

2. Stop Obsessing Over Vanity Metrics and Empty Reach

Why It Matters

Chasing numbers like followers, likes, and impressions can feel good but these metrics rarely translate into real business growth. Most digital ads are quickly scrolled past, and fair-weather followers almost never become loyal customers.

What to Do Instead

• Identify metrics that drive real results such as repeat visits, shares, purchases, or referrals.
• Adjust your reporting and team incentives to focus on engagement, not just exposure.
• Use analytics to track meaningful actions, like comments or direct replies.
• Encourage content that sparks genuine conversation or feedback.

Takeaway: Switch your focus from empty reach to true connection. Measure what matters to your business, not your ego.

3. Stop Being Generic—Prioritize Authenticity

Why It Matters

Modern consumers quickly spot canned visuals, recycled taglines, and generic brand messaging. In a world where AI can generate anything, authenticity is your sharpest edge.

What to Do Instead

• Replace clichés and stock images with real stories, faces, and voices from your brand.
• Share behind-the-scenes moments or honest lessons learned.
• Don’t be afraid to use humor, opinion, or a unique point of view.
• Let AI support your research, but ensure every message feels uniquely yours.

Takeaway: The boldest brands are the most authentic. Make sure your marketing sounds and feels like you—not anyone else.

4. Stop Neglecting Consumer Trust and Privacy

Why It Matters

Trust is more valuable than ever. Poor data practices, endless retargeting, and impersonal messaging push people away. When trust is lost, it is rarely regained.

What to Do Instead

• Be clear and transparent about what data you collect and why.
• Give customers control over their information and respect their preferences.
• Review your data collection for compliance and necessity.
• Respond to feedback and reviews, including the negative ones.

Takeaway: Treat every customer like a person, not a datapoint. Make privacy and transparency a core part of your brand promise.

5. Stop Clinging to Comfort Zones and Old Formulas

Why It Matters

If your marketing feels too comfortable, it’s probably not working as well as it could. Sticking with what used to work can leave you behind as the landscape changes.

What to Do Instead

• Review your marketing channels and tactics to see which ones are actually delivering results.
• Retire campaigns that feel safe but stale.
• Encourage your team to brainstorm and pilot new ideas.
• Make it a habit to learn from both successes and failures.

Takeaway: Letting go of the old is the first step towards finding new, more effective approaches.

6. Stop Treating Technology as a Magic Bullet

Why It Matters

No tool or AI feature can make up for a weak strategy. Chasing every new tech trend won’t deliver lasting results.

What to Do Instead

• Focus first on understanding your customer and crafting a meaningful offer.
• Use technology to enhance your strengths, not to mask your weaknesses.
• Regularly assess which tools deliver real value and which are just distractions.
• Remember, sometimes a personal touch outperforms any automation.

Takeaway: Technology should serve your strategy, not the other way around.

7. Stop Underestimating the AI Revolution—Adapt Instead of Ignore

Why It Matters

AI is changing everything from search to customer engagement. Ignoring these changes, or automating without oversight, can put you at a disadvantage.

What to Do Instead

• Identify repetitive tasks that AI can handle and redirect your energy to creativity and relationships.
• Train your team in AI basics and encourage experimentation.
• Always keep a human eye on automated outputs for quality and tone.
• Stay curious and proactive about how AI is changing your customer’s world.

Takeaway: Embrace AI as a partner, not a threat. Balance efficiency with a human touch.

8. Stop Prioritizing Funnels Over Fans

Why It Matters

Focusing only on lead funnels can limit your growth. Building a community of fans leads to deeper loyalty and more powerful word-of-mouth.

What to Do Instead

• Create spaces for your customers to connect with you and each other.
• Highlight your customers’ stories and successes.
• Offer value beyond the sale, like education or support.
• Track and celebrate the growth of your engaged community.

Takeaway: A passionate community is your strongest asset. Focus on making advocates, not just sales.

Conclusion: Make Room for the Bold by Quitting the Old

The future belongs to marketers who know what to stop. Cutting out outdated habits clears the way for smarter, more human, and more impactful marketing. Audit your approach, let go of what’s holding you back, and give yourself space to try what’s truly bold. Progress starts with what you quit.

If you want more actionable checklists or specific examples for your business, just ask.

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The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise

The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode: 

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Blair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and a leading authority on selling creative and consulting expertise. Blair shares insights from his new book, The Four Conversations, which distills decades of agency wisdom into a clear roadmap for moving from pitching and price-haggling to confidently leading client relationships. Listeners will discover how to shift from vendor to trusted advisor, raise closing rates, price based on value, and master the four pivotal conversations that define every successful client engagement.

About the Guest

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching and the author of several acclaimed books on agency sales, pricing, and positioning. Over the past two decades, Blair has helped thousands of agencies and consultancies around the world move away from free pitching and price wars toward leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. His latest book, The Four Conversations, offers a practical framework for mastering the most crucial moments in every client relationship.

Actionable Insights

• Most agencies close far fewer deals than they think—often just 25%. Doubling your close rate and raising prices by 20% can dramatically improve profitability.
• The “four conversations” framework: Probative (demonstrate expertise), Qualifying (vet fit for both parties), Value (define value to be created and price accordingly), Closing (help the client select and commit to a path forward).
• Selling expertise is not about convincing or manipulating—it’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.
• True leadership in sales means moving from statements about yourself to questions about the client, and from eagerness for the work to discernment and selectivity.
• Pricing should begin with a value conversation—anchoring fees to outcomes, not just deliverables or time spent.
• Productizing your service delivery is compatible with pricing each client based on value, not a fixed menu.
• To move from vendor to trusted advisor, adopt the “expert’s mantra”: I am the expert, I am the prize, I’m on a mission to help, and I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:16 – The True Cost of Letting Clients Lead
  Blair breaks down the impact of poor sales practices on close rates and pricing power.
• 04:45 – The Four Conversations Model
  An overview of the probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations that shape every client relationship.
• 06:23 – Selling as Guiding, Not Convincing
  Why selling expertise is about facilitating clients’ choices, not talking them into a decision.
• 07:47 – From Proving Brilliance to Asking Questions
  The shift from statements to questions is at the heart of expert selling.
• 13:37 – Value-Based Pricing in Action
  Blair walks through starting the pricing conversation with outcomes, not just deliverables.
• 20:47 – The Expert’s Mantra
  A mindset framework for making the leap from vendor to trusted advisor.

Pulled Quotes

“Selling is not talking people into things. It’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.”
— Blair Enns

“I am the expert, I am the prize. I’m on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.”
— Blair Enns

Resources

• Website: winwithoutpitching.com

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.802)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Blair Enns. He's a leading voice in the creative and consulting agency world, best known as the founder of Win Without Pitching. Over two decades, he's helped thousands of agencies move from pitching and price haggling to confidently leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. We're going to talk about his latest book, The Four Conversations, a new model for selling expertise.

Book distills decades of hard won wisdom into a practical roadmap for navigating the most crucial moments in every client relationship. So Blair, welcome to the show.

Blair Enns (00:40.337)

Thank you, John.

John Jantsch (00:42.85)

So let's get some leverage. How much in your estimation do you think, what do you think the real cost day to day when agencies let clients run the show instead of leading the conversation?

Blair Enns (00:55.611)

What's the real cost of letting clients run the conversation?

John Jantsch (00:58.734)

Yeah, I mean, instead of us, you know, a lot about the four conversations is really providing leadership in the conversation. So I see a lot of agencies that show up and say, what do need? Sure, we do that. And I think that's what really leads to this price haggling, doesn't it?

Blair Enns (01:16.091)

Yeah. So if I start to, I've never contemplated the total cost here, but we could do some math on the fly. The typical agency has a closing ratio of about 25%. I can actually be more specific than that. It's oddly specific at 26%, which seems to be a universal number across all B2B sales. Now that's when we measure it. It's 26%. Self-declared, it's closer to 33%. So an agency will tell you we close one in three proposals.

when we crack open the CRM and look at it, they close one in four. I think the threshold of respectability in a closing ratio is 40%. You should strive to be over 50%. So if you're closing less than 50%, A, you're probably writing too many proposals, B, you're probably doing something wrong in the proposals. So let's say you're closing half as many proposals as you should. So there's a starting point. And then there's pricing. Are you getting, are you commanding,

your fair share of the value that you're helping to create in the typical agency is not. I can't give you a percentage on that, but I would guess it's another 20 % across the board. The typical agency could probably increase their prices by 20%. Now with existing clients, not necessarily. They can raise prices with existing clients on average. It's difficult with larger agencies. We're dealing with procurement.

But if you draw a line in time, this is after today, after you've absorbed this information, you start to sell this way, your average proposal value should climb by 20 % easily. take the size of your firm, add 20 % to the top line, double your closing ratio. That's the cost of poor selling.

John Jantsch (03:05.014)

So how much of that, I might leave myself right into a trap here, but how much of that is marketing and how much of that is sales? So in other words, you and I have written books that comes with, in some cases, perceived trust and perceived authority, expect to pay a premium in a lot of cases. So how much of that is done on the front end and how much of that is done in the sales conversation?

Blair Enns (03:09.383)

Ha ha ha.

Blair Enns (03:28.829)

Well, most of what I just talked about is what happens in the sales conversation, which to me is after the initial interaction. So if we're talking about marketing is to generate leads, that's a whole other ball of wax. Now, depending on who you are in the organization, how it thinks about sales and marketing, in some organizations, some agencies, lead generation can be seen as a sales function.

And in others, it's seen as a marketing function. Typically, it's seen as a bit of both or a specific combination of both in the average firm. The better your marketing goes the saying, the less selling you have to do. But that's an interpretation of that statement. It's really about seeing that statement views selling as lead generation. But there's all this stuff that I just referenced, which is what happens after you begin the conversation with the lead. So there's a whole other

area of improvement to be had under the banner of marketing.

John Jantsch (04:28.942)

Yeah, and it's probably the combination just amplifies everything, right? The combination of both of those being effective amplifies everything. So let's just go right to the title of the book. What are the four conversations and why do they keep happening no matter how seasoned somebody is?

Blair Enns (04:45.349)

Yeah, so the four conversations, this is a model. A model is a view of the world, a way of organizing complexity. All models are wrong. Some are useful. The book opens with that quote. So I'm not saying the sale always happens in a series of four linear and discrete conversations, but it is helpful to think of it that way. So the four conversations and their objective are the probative conversation, where your goal is to prove your expertise to the client and move in their mind from a position of a vendor to the expert.

That's the conversation that happens without your president. Your marketing would be under the domain of the probative conversation. It's a conversation in construct only. It happens through your agents of thought leadership, referral, referrers, and your marketing. And then you have the three person to person conversation that happened after that, which you would think of as the sales conversations. There's the qualifying conversation, which is the vetting conversation. You're vetting the lead to see if this is something worth spending your time on.

There's the value conversation where you're uncovering the value to be created and the share of that value you might command in the form of fees. So you're starting to set not price, but pricing guidance, rough approximate pricing guidance based on the value to be created rather than the cost of your solutions. And then the final conversation is the closing conversation where you help the client commit and select, select and commit to a path forward.

John Jantsch (06:11.224)

You know what I love about as I listen to you talk about all four of those conversations, they're not about like manipulating or getting this thing that you want done. They're really about creating value for both parties, right?

Blair Enns (06:23.109)

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the idea that selling is not talking people into things. I think, you know, we make this distinction or we I make the distinction in the book, you know, between expert and vendor. And you think of your expert self, the way you operate as an expert, you're in your relationships with your clients. So after sale, the way you show up, you're kind of you're an advisor. You facilitate choice. You point out the pros and cons of decisions.

John Jantsch (06:28.59)

Right.

Blair Enns (06:52.061)

You give the client some decisions to make, you point out the pros and cons of those decisions, and I think that's how you should navigate the sale as well.

John Jantsch (06:59.63)

I talked to a lot of agencies that I'm sure you've heard this quite often as well. They feel like they're giving away their expertise, pitching for free, giving consultations to show that they know what they're talking about and really all along the way kind of giving it away. do you get people out of that place of being stuck?

Blair Enns (07:19.121)

Well, there's no short answer to the question of how you get people out of that. You write a book on a model, you get them to read the book and implement the guidance in the book is the short one. But as you point out, it's hard. I myself, I struggle with this a lot. I've for years, it's been the hardest thing for me to go from seeing myself as the person with the answers, the subject matter expert, to the person with the questions. So if you think of how a typical marketer shows up in the sale,

John Jantsch (07:45.294)

Mm.

Blair Enns (07:47.655)

They wanna prove their brilliance. And yeah, we do that in the probative conversation, but that's the conversation that happens without you present. Once you're in a conversation with an individual, instead of trying to prove your brilliance, you should arm yourself with a set of questions. And so in our model of the four conversations, each conversation has a framework or set of frameworks, has a specific objective, which I shared with you, and then a framework or set of frameworks.

for navigating to that objective. Now those frameworks are almost all questions. So the short answer to how is you go from statements about yourself to questions about the client.

John Jantsch (08:29.058)

Well, and those statements often are not just about yourself. They might actually be offering solutions, right? Yeah. Yeah. number two, qualifying. I know that this is not your take on this, but I know a lot of people hear that qualifying and they're thinking, it comes off more like I'm going to see if you qualify to work with me. you know, and it can actually be a little off putting if not done.

Blair Enns (08:35.377)

Free advice, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:56.91)

How do you approach making sure that the client doesn't feel like they're being evaluated?

Blair Enns (09:04.283)

Yeah, I think some people do overplay that idea. So you can take this idea of qualifying and you can put on a spectrum. At one end, there's the client qualifying you. At the other end, there's you qualifying the client. And most of these qualifying conversations, the typical listener wouldn't think of them as a qualifying conversation. They would think of them as a credentials conversation or a credentials meeting. So what does that mean if we put it back into this context of qualifying? It means you're trying to qualify for the client.

The assumption is this is a good fit for you. Now you're trying to prove to them that they're a good fit. And you have to do that and there's a way to do that, but the conversation is all about you first making sure that they are a good fit for you. That implies that you've actually thought about who is a good fit for you. What is your ideal client profile? Who do you want to do business with? Who will you not do business with? How much money do you need somebody to spend? And so,

John Jantsch (09:52.046)

Yeah, yeah.

Blair Enns (10:00.305)

You can have a very business-like conversation using a framework to organize questions around that without coming across like an ass. But in the wrong hands, somebody can overplay that idea and they can make the client feel uncomfortable.

John Jantsch (10:08.257)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:16.151)

You know, one of the things over the years that I've liked to use as a qualifier is there are certain behaviors that the client has or what they believe in terms of what value is and how a solution gets done. And in some cases, we get very good or most people get very good at understanding, this is a problem I can fix well. I know I could do this one. So where does that come into the qualifying, those types of considerations?

Blair Enns (10:43.239)

Well, you have to guard against that. so qualifying is the vetting conversation. There's a tone in the qualifying conversation. It's a tone of discernment. So you're professional, you're clinical, you're, if you're getting really enthusiastic about the opportunity, you're just suppressing that for the time being. And then once you ask your questions and you determine that there is, this is a good fit for you, then you move to the next conversation, the value conversation. You can, your tone of discernment can move to a tone of deep interest. You decide,

John Jantsch (10:51.106)

Yeah.

Blair Enns (11:13.245)

You ask your questions, you get your answers, and you decide, you know what, this is a good fit. And you would say to the client, on the surface, I think this is a really good fit. I can see my team getting very excited about this. I'm not saying I'm getting excited about it. I'm still trying to moderate my enthusiasm to make sure my enthusiasm for the project or the client does not exceed their enthusiasm for me.

John Jantsch (11:23.374)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:36.347)

Can we stick on that for a minute? Why is that an issue?

Blair Enns (11:40.113)

Well, I have in the book what I consider to be the first principle of selling expertise. It's a formula P equals DB over D. I printed on the back of coffee mugs. P stands for your power in the sale. Your power in the sale is a function of your desirability, DB, being greater than your own desire, D. Otherwise stated, whoever wants it the most has the least power in the buy-sell relationship.

You don't extrapolate that to the nth degree and say, therefore, I should seek to maximize my desirability. That's true. That part's true. But you could also infer that to mean I should seek to minimize my expression of desire for the client. that, yeah, no. Yeah, you show up as aloof, disinterested. You don't want that. I'm just saying pay attention to the power dynamics in the relationship and make sure, especially early on,

John Jantsch (12:24.29)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't really, I don't really need this sale. I take it or leave it. Right.

Blair Enns (12:38.713)

actually, throughout, there's no especially early on, but just make sure that your own expression, allow your enthusiasm for the opportunity to rise as high as the clients and try not to exceed it. Because when you exceed it, you clearly give all your power away, your power to do your best work, to command the most profit, to command high prices. Your cost of sale will go up too as your power goes away.

John Jantsch (13:06.604)

Interesting. So let's move to number three. guess it is. You use the phrase value to be created. Is that right? Value to be created. that. Yeah. But, but less about fees and more about the value to be created as part of the equation. So, so do I hear you saying, what we're going to fix for this client is worth a million dollars. That's the value it's going to create for them. So do we base our fee on that? Or do we base our fee on the fact that we know how to do this and we do it

Blair Enns (13:14.129)

the value conversation.

John Jantsch (13:36.28)

officially.

Blair Enns (13:37.277)

So you can base your fee, I'm getting softer on this as the years go by. My previous book, which came out in 2018, is on pricing. It's called Pricing Creativity. And I was probably a bit more of a hard, was pushing harder for value-based pricing. Today, I don't really care how you price. I care if you have a value conversation. A value conversation begins the pricing discussion based on the value to be created. So you come to me or your...

John Jantsch (13:55.694)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (14:03.601)

prospective client and I'm walking you through the simple four-step framework. What do you want John? You tell me what your vision of your desired future state is, what success looks like in the future. And I say this is a great vision. So now I'm leaning in, I'm enthusiastic. Okay, what are the metrics that will measure to prove that you've achieved what you want? And we talk about some KPIs, you give them to me or I pull them out of you. And I say to you, okay, I know what you want, I know what the KPIs are that we'll measure.

John Jantsch (14:17.304)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (14:32.741)

If we hit these metrics, what's the value of that? So if we just keep it to economic value, you give me some numbers, we top line or revenue gains or cost reductions, we translate that into profit. And I say, all right, so if your vision comes true, you hit these metrics, we're gonna create a million dollars a year and net new profit, is that right? And you say, yeah, that sounds about right if everything goes well. Now the fourth and final step is setting pricing guidance. At this point, I haven't thought.

about what I'm actually gonna do. I haven't talked to you about specific solutions. Even if you may have come to me with a specific solution in mind, I put it aside and I've put you into your desired future state. And I've asked you to describe success. And obviously there's a framework around this. And I say to you, if I could help you create this million dollars a year and that new recurring profit, would you pay me X? And in that moment, I'm gonna pull a number out of my nether regions. And I want the number to be so high that you won't pay it, that you walk it down.

And there's some psychology, it's called the anchoring effect and why I do this. But at some point, so if I say, would you pay me a half a million dollars? And you respond with, well, that depends, what would you do for a half a million dollars? I might say, I don't know, I haven't thought about solutions yet. But if I could help you create this million dollars in net new recurring profit, would you pay half a million in one time fees? And that's.

Whether you say yes or no, we're in a conversation on pricing and that conversation has started high. The price is tied to the value to be created is not tied to my solutions. From there, the price can go down. At the end of the day, when I come back with a proposal in the closing conversation, I can price however I want. The important thing is we have started the pricing discussion based on the value to be created, not based on the cost of my solutions.

John Jantsch (16:26.158)

Yeah, and I think that's certainly the path towards getting a prospect or a client to think, I'm investing this money as opposed to I'm spending this money, isn't

Blair Enns (16:36.551)

Correct.

John Jantsch (16:38.668)

So let's talk about the money conversation. I would say that, I mean, you talked to millions of salespeople probably over the years. Isn't that the place that they have the most issue with?

Blair Enns (16:51.325)

I think the value conversation is a pivotal conversation because we are starting to, the client, we uncover a budget if there is one in the qualifying conversation, then we transcend that budget while still acknowledging as part of the framework that the client has a budget and agreeing that we'll come back with a range of solutions and a range of price points. We basically agree on a trade.

I'll show you what I can do for your budget. You allow me to think creatively and expansively about what's the most we can do to help you create this value. And it's going to be a big price. So that's, I love this framework for talking about money. It doesn't make it easy, but when you understand that it's okay for the first number to be so high that the client chokes on it or pushes back and you do this a few times, you realize everybody will survive.

This is not an existential threat. This is just part of the conversation. By the time the conversation ends, you're in agreement that the client will consider options in a certain range. Even if the client says, listen, I don't have the authority to spend, let's say I anchored at 500 and we ended up at 250 and then you said, well, my budget's 50. So I've got a range of 50 to 250. Even if you don't have the authority to spend 250 in that moment.

I'll extract from you an understanding that, okay, I'm gonna put some options in front of you that are gonna be beyond your budget. And if you're really excited about them, it's your prerogative. But then I would invite you to invite the other people to the table who would be required to fund this. you are always in, you the buyer, you're always in control. You've stated to me that you have a budget. I've shown what I'm going to do for that budget. In exchange, you're letting me push you to think bigger, to think about investing more.

And that's a pretty fair trade. You practice this a few times, it becomes fairly intuitive to you.

John Jantsch (18:47.628)

You know, it's been come, see very commonplace. seems like the last few years for agencies to kind of offer package services. So this much deliverable for this price. it sounds to me, when I hear you say that conversation, you're really getting completely out of that, mold and really the idea of, of, I'm going to actually bring you something really innovative that you hadn't even thought about when you developed your budget. Automatically you're providing leadership instead of just.

execution, right?

Blair Enns (19:18.845)

That's true, but it's not antithetical to productizing your services either. So in my last two books, I've talked about productization and in pricing creativity, I was pretty strongly anti-productizing for agencies. When I wrote the four conversations, which I finished last year,

John Jantsch (19:38.828)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (19:46.969)

I was pretty neutral on it. And I have a pretty good framework in the book for deciding, you standardize or customize your delivery model, package your services or customize and your pricing? What I mean by that is if you have packages, do you price the packages or do you price the client? And as time goes on, I'm actually increasingly in favor of product standardizing your delivery. So you have packages, but reserving the right to price the client, which is the first rule.

of in my book, Pricing Creativity, price the client, not the product, not the service.

John Jantsch (20:23.448)

So I know from many conversations I've had this, know, anytime I say the same thing of you want to move from vendor to trusted advisor, you know, a lot of lights go on, right? It's like, yes, that's exactly what I want to do. So for the listeners who are stuck in that mindset right now, is there, is there a shift or a daily habit that you would recommend that might make, help people make that leap or at least make it stick?

Blair Enns (20:47.285)

it's a great question. there is in the book, there's I guess it's a principle, but it's really a framework for getting into the experts mindset. It's called the experts mantra. And it's a four line statement that you repeat to yourself before you log into the conversation, before you show up for the whether it's done remotely or in person before you enter the conversation. Just four statements that you repeat yourself.

They can benefit from a little customization, but I'll give them to you here. I am the expert, I am the prize. I'm on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow and that's okay. And we can unpack each of those four sentences and they're all rooted in something, but it's like, I am the expert, I'm the prize to be won here. I'm on a mission to lead. If you don't let me lead in the sale, you will not let me lead in the engagement. So this is a test of whether or not we can work together.

Yeah, and then the last one of all will not follow is just letting go of the outcomes and focusing on the process.

John Jantsch (21:48.781)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:52.27)

Yeah,

Yeah, I love that. love that. Well, Blair, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place for you to invite people to find out more about your work and obviously your books or connect with you?

Blair Enns (22:07.089)

Yeah, thanks John, I've enjoyed it. They can reach me in all of my work at winwithoutpitching.com.

John Jantsch (22:13.611)

Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Blair Enns (22:18.685)

Thank you.

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