Weekend Favs October 12th

Weekend Favs October 12th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

• • Tidio – An AI chatbot and live chat solution that helps marketers engage website visitors, automate customer support, and improve lead generation.

  • Scalenut – AI-powered content research and writing platform that assists marketers with long-form SEO blog posts, content outlines, and topic research.
  • CrAIyon – An AI image generation tool that helps marketers create custom visuals and creative assets based on text prompts for use in campaigns, social media, and branding.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

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Why Working Less is the Secret to Earning More With Alyson Caffrey

Why Working Less is the Secret to Earning More With Alyson Caffrey written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Alyson Caffrey

Coming in at number four of your favorite episodes lately: In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Alyson Caffrey, the founder of Operations Agency and the co-creator of the operations simplified framework, which is aimed at streamlining the backend operations for digital and creative agencies. She also authorizes The Sabbatical Method: How to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business. With a wealth of experience in helping agency owners find a balance between their work and rest, Alyson sheds light on how the Sabbatical Method can revolutionize how marketing systems are handled.

Key Takeaway:

Working less to achieve more is a paradigm shift in the traditional hustle culture, especially among agency owners in the marketing realm. Alyson Caffrey joins me in elucidating how the Sabbatical Method is transforming the marketing systems landscape. We delve into the concept of “systematic rest,” an innovative approach to interspersing work with adequate rest to prevent burnout and enhance productivity and creativity significantly. By embracing the Sabbatical Method, agency owners are discovering a potent strategy to scale their business while reducing the hours they traditionally grind away, making the notion of working less to achieve more a reality.

 

Questions I ask Alyson Caffrey:

• [00:45] How does rest contribute to business growth?
• [02:31] Can you explain the framework you mentioned?
• [03:43] Is a long sabbatical the goal of your method?
• [05:44] How does your 90-day method alter established work habits?
• [08:28] Do founders grasp your concepts both logically and emotionally?
• [11:10] Can you explain the operation simplified hierarchy?
• [14:37] What daily habits do you recommend for gradual improvement?
• [18:54] How can one develop discipline in creating effective systems?
• [21:54] How should these changes be planned in quarterly planning?
• [24:37] Where can listeners connect with you or learn more?

More About Alyson Caffrey

• Get Alyson’s book –  The Sabbatical Method: How to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business
• Find out more about the Operations Agency
• Connect with Alyson Caffrey on LinkedIn

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Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:08): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Alison Caffery. She streamlines the backend operations for digital and creative agencies, and she's the founder of Operations Agency and the co-creator of the Operations Simplified Framework. We're going to talk about her most recent book, the Sabbatical Method, how to Leverage Rest and Grow Your Business. Allison's also the host of the Growing Pains podcast, so welcome to the show, Allison.

Alyson Caffrey (00:43): Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:46): Okay. I'm probably not the first person to say this, but REST is not often associated with growing a business, so tell me why it should be.

Alyson Caffrey (00:55): Yeah, that's an awesome way to frame that question honestly. So I started thinking about the function of rest after I went on maternity leave with my first son. My business was three years old and it still needed me a lot. And I remember it being a really confronting experience because I thought to myself, well, how can I actually take some time off and also simultaneously grow my business? And I started just considering that growing a business is a high performance effort. We need to be able to put out a high performing output and we need to be able to be really consistent. We need to be really clear. We need to do the specific activities that are going to bring us the highest level result. And one of those activities actually is rest. If you think about someone summiting Everest or training for a marathon or doing anything in the physical high performing nature, rest is woven into every single training plan out there that exists. But for some reason, we as small business owners think that momentum and hustle and grinding and are going to be the answers to a lot of our problems, when in fact implementing rest actually can preserve the longevity of your business and really prevent against burnout, which has unfortunately become such a commonplace in the entrepreneurial spirit,

John Jantsch (02:15): Unfortunately. And I do think that there, unfortunately for good or bad, there are bad examples of everything. I think there's a lot of bad examples of just what you talked about. The whole hustle and grind thing became kind of badge of honor for some people. I do think we're going the other direction. Fortunately we're going to get into the specifics, but maybe since we're calling this a framework or a method, let's kind of big picture, what is it in a nutshell?

Alyson Caffrey (02:42): Yeah, so the sabbatical method is kind of like hard 75 for business owners. It's really supposed to serve two main purposes. First is to give you a hard stop and kind of a reset. If you've been really needing to take a rest from the business, if you feel like you're at the edge of yourself, if you're grinding and at full speed, this is supposed to be your permission because Alison Caffrey says there's a return on investment for rest. This is your permission to take that time. Second is it's a lifestyle. So after you finish hard 75, you're not supposed to just start snacking on the Cheetos right away. You're supposed to consider what can I take from this really challenging disciplined time and how can I weave it into my overall health and wellness in my personal life? And that's what I want you to consider operationally in your business. How can I weave rest into the way that my business performs so that I can see more return on investment and more longevity overall? So that's what the sabbatical method is in a nutshell.

John Jantsch (03:43): Alright, so the end goal then is to, I mean people think of a sabbatical, people leave the country, leave their business for three, six months. I mean, is that really the ultimate goal? However you define that?

Alyson Caffrey (03:57): It's interesting. I get asked that all the time and the short answer is no, it's not a traditional sabbatical. Sabbatical to me is just as simple as closing your computer at 6:00 PM if that's what you've been struggling to do. Everybody needs to begin where they are. And just again, in any physical training plan, we don't go out to run 26.2 miles on day one of our marathon training. We run one mile and then we get nice and rested, then we go out for maybe a two mile run the next day.

(04:26): That's the same position I take with sabbatical planning. A lot of us think that sabbaticals are this Parisian six month, three month time off. And a lot of it feels really inaccessible to business owners and transparently, if you tried to do that at this point in some of our businesses, our business would just fall apart if we just kind of decided to go take this super long vacation. So what I tried to reposition the term of sabbatical is consistent and appropriate rest at different levels of the business. So that might mean closing the computer at 6:00 PM making sure that you're not answering emails or doing specific client projects over the weekends. Making sure that you block in sometimes in your monthly cadence to review your overall goals and consider what are the systems I have in place for the business and how am I systematically going after what I want to achieve and how am I achieving results for clients? So those are kind of the different types of things I would consider as implementing rest into the business. And of course you can leverage these exact tools to build up to a three month sabbatical. That's what I personally did to take my maternity leaves with my sons and I was able to take some really meaningful time off that really did shift the direction and clarify the purpose of a lot of the things we were doing in operations agency.

John Jantsch (05:44): So one of the book's Promises is somewhere buried in there is that we're going to do this in 90 days, right? We're going to correct a lot of bad habits in 90 days. A lot of business owners, the way they work has taken them 20 years to get there. So how do you get the mindset shift? And maybe it's just people, they get burned out enough, they're like, I got to do something, and that alone is enough to make 'em create a difference. But what do you say to those people that really just kind of established this way to work for many years maybe?

Alyson Caffrey (06:16): Yeah. There's kind of two things I think John that you've asked that are relevant to unpack here. First is that I know a lot of digital agency owners who really struggle to get themselves out of the day-to-Day operations of their business because they have a lot of industry expertise and a specific formula that lives right up here in the brain that they use to approach their client projects and really get some of the best results on projects. One of the things that I position in the book is really being dialed into that over a 90 day period is to understand what am I doing that is actually systematic things that I do day in and day out for every single project? And then what is maybe that 80 20 rule that we can identify that 80% is repeatable and about 20% of my involvement is actually custom.

(07:02): So I think that mindset first and foremost is one of the most challenging to overcome because it forces us to reconcile with the fact that although we do have about 20% of the secret sauce, a lot of what we're doing actually is repeatable and actually can be delegated. So if you want to grow the business and you want to be disciplined about removing yourself, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they pair really well together. And the second really big thing that I think folks need to understand about running a business at large, I learned this actually from just my very recent years of becoming a mom. My oldest is three. And I think to myself, sometimes I say, look, I can outsource specific aspects of my parenting. I can outsource my child's education to a teacher. I can outsource childcare to a daycare.

(07:48): I can outsource their physical education or fitness to a specific sports team or to a community of folks who could get that outcome. But at the end of the day, it relies on me to be the parent to raise a capable adult in that way. And I think a lot of us as business owners hear this zone of genius and stay in your specialties and all these things, but we forget that businesses actually need a really full spectrum and rich amount of skills that we actually need to develop if we want to see its success. So a lot of owners will say, well, I'm not a systems person. And I'm like, well, that's what your business needs you to be right now that need you to be systematic if you want to grow it to the point that you desire.

John Jantsch (08:28): Well, you were certainly singing my tune. I mean, I've spent the last 20 years actually licensing my agency methodology to hundreds of agencies. And I will tell you that it is so freeing when people realize, oh, I can scope this and I don't have to be the one doing all the work. But probably the biggest challenge for a lot of people is mindset. They actually draw their energy from doing the work or being the savior or being the one who can have the answer. And I think sometimes I think logically everybody gets what you're just saying. I think sometimes emotionally it's actually harder.

Alyson Caffrey (09:08): And it's interesting, a lot of the things I focus on in the book and even with my team, actually just before I hopped on, we were crystallizing our quarterly plan for Q4. And one of the things I do actually to wrap that exercise, wait a minute, Q4

John Jantsch (09:21): Already started and you're just now finally finishing your plan.

Alyson Caffrey (09:24): I'm finalizing it literally today. I was out with my mastermind planning last week, and it's interesting because what we do is we finalize and put the bow on everything with a daily habit tracker.

(09:38): And the reason why I love habit trackers and focusing on activities inside of the business is because it does a great job of removing that emotional element to doing the work that is important to drive you forward. I think all of us can get pulled in to, how do I feel about this? Or I just don't feel like it today, or You know what, it's easier for me to just go back into web work because that's where I'm comfortable and excited to contribute. But at the end of the day, if your business needs you to be in a different seat and it needs you to be doing different activities, identifying those at 30,000 feet inside of your quarterly plan and then really deciding every day to say, listen, I'm going to show up to this activity with no emotion as much as I possibly can come in and do the work. And if I really feel like I'm doing something that isn't bringing me joy and bringing the business value, then we can reassess how that's going. But if it's driving the business forward in the way the direction that you're wanting, that's one of the quickest, most easily implementable things I have found that remove kind of that mindset, emotional element from approaching your daily work.

John Jantsch (10:51): So we've gotten halfway through the episode here, and I haven't really brought up the hierarchy, which is really the foundation obviously of the book. The big idea is of course the sabbatical, but how you get there in stages, and again, I don't know how you want to address that, if you just want to start riffing on that, but unpack the operation simplified hierarchy.

Alyson Caffrey (11:14): So the hierarchy really was birthed by really just considering operationally, what does a business need to survive and thrive? And I rooted it in Maslow's hierarchy of needs because just like any human being, we've got some of the basic stuff that needs to happen like process creation and quarterly planning, really hitting those metrics, the habits, like I just said, that's kind of the big foundation of how we want to operate. The next is really just defining a home and considering that if we're going to invite team members to collaborate on key projects, what do those projects look like and how can I create repeatable, profitable projects at my agency? The third is really driven on metrics. So what measurables do we have in place to tell us what decisions we need to make next? And then how can we scale this thing? How do we invite a community and grow our reach and our impact and really scream from the rooftops now that we have this incredible backend well of procedures, what are our front end procedures for the growth side of the business in sales and marketing? And then finally, profit and prosper is kind of the tip of the pyramid there, which I actually say is custom. We want to be consistently putting profit back into the pockets of the owner and its key stakeholders, but we also want to help our clients and the people that are involved with our business really prosper in whatever way that we've outlined for them. And that looks different, right?

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Alyson Caffrey (13:42): I have some agency owners who really love to work the six months on, six months off schedule. They really love to be at home and working on their business and then take six months in Mexico, so that looks different. Their operations look a little bit different than somebody who really wants to create a strong full stack agency team. That's just a very different model. So I consider those as kind of the foundational elements. Now, something really important that I did also really focus on inside of the book is that first and foremost, these aren't achieved in sequence. I know so many business owners who have the sales and marketing stuff dialed in, they've got really incredible reach and impact and all of that in the marketplace, but then they actually super lack some of that repeatable project and profitability stuff. So it doesn't mean that you need to focus on it in sequence. I do in the book because I feel like each and everyone builds on one another. And the second thing I will also mention is that it's never done right. We're always going to be doing this work just like your physical fitness. You don't work to get a six pack and then eat Cheetos on day 31. It's something that we are consistently working on and refining as the business is growing and as it's breaking the processes that we currently have.

John Jantsch (14:59): And I think that's a key point. Once you get safe fulfillment dialed in, then you have maybe more capacity. So that creates another problem. And so then you have to go revisit sales and marketing. I mean these levels, you're just coming back to 'em. I mean, you're revisiting 'em even once, as you say, you've got 'em dialed in. But I think there is a little bit of just Maslow talks about, I mean, you can't even begin to think about profits if you don't have the basics, right? I mean, there is some order of things that you have to get certain things done, but you're right. I mean, nobody shows up in any perfect stage. We're all one foot in each stage, I suppose, at some point.

Alyson Caffrey (15:40): Yeah, absolutely.

John Jantsch (15:42): You mentioned it already, but I had it on the list here to talk about because I do think that it's crucial to making any of this happen and it's habits, isn't it? And so talk a little bit about the daily habits that you talk about, your daily five, I think it is habits, but then just what are some of the things that you've seen have really helped move people along because they're doing 1% better each day kind of thing?

Alyson Caffrey (16:08): And I have to give a shout out to Atomic Habits by James Clear. That is one of my favorite books of all time. And if anybody listening has not read it, it's worth a read and a reread perhaps every single year because as you grow as a professional and a human being, hearing that information again is just astronomically more valuable every single time you read it. So that's definitely number one. A lot of my thinking around habits is formed from the expertise of James Clear and that specific book. I think one of the big things that I love to focus on when generating habits first and foremost, is understanding the difference between leading and lagging indicators. So habits really apply to the former, what habits can I keep that really will help me be the person or have the business or have whatever it is that I really want?

(16:54): That those lagging indicators are the outcomes. And I think a lot of folks think that habits are for people who are organized and systematic and have schedules and all of those things, but I'd like to kind of challenge how we think about habits because habits exist. They just do, and we need to reconcile sometimes the first step is really understanding that we do keep habits, but they might actually not be pushing us toward the things that we want, the people we want to be, the businesses we want to have, the lives we want to create.

John Jantsch (17:25): Bad habits are habits, right?

Alyson Caffrey (17:27): Exactly. But I think a lot of folks think habits and then they're like, oh, you're going to tell me some system or some hack about your calendar or whatever else. And really habits just are, they're good, they're bad, they're whatever. And I can't really get any more clear on that. I think a lot of folks need to begin with, okay, what are my habits currently and are they pushing me toward the thing I want? And I think taking a stock of those. So first and foremost, foundational habit kind of creation is to consider what do I literally want? And is every single habit that I keep in my day driving me toward that specific thing? And a lot of that is eliminating some of those things that one of my coaches actually calls it time assassins, and he says it's like drinking alcohol, watching television, eating refined sugars, personal social media.

(18:15): Exactly. Things that literally just rip your time away. And I think a lot of us, as we start to consider, well, I don't have enough time in the day to let's just say serve 50 clients versus 20 clients who don't have the time, the question then becomes is, am I not disciplined enough in developing the systems? Am I not disciplined enough in removing the things that aren't serving me? And so I think starting there with really just being critical and assessing how you're spending your time is wonderful. And then really, again, planning those habits at your quarterly planning. So just saying, Hey, listen, if I'm putting on this side of the equals sign the business, I want the life, I want the health level that I'd love to achieve the family life that I love, what does that look like? And then what habits do I need to keep daily?

(18:57): I was actually just doing this exercise with a client of mine, and he was telling me that he wanted 300 new leads into his pipeline every single month. And I told him, I said, well, with your current strategy on doing lots of one-to-one, I was like, you're going to probably need to do about 900 reach outs every single month. And I was like, here's what it literally looks like in your calendar and here are the habits you'd need to keep. I was like, do you think that this is sustainable? And he first immediately was like, no. And I was like, so this is actually why we don't hit quarterly goals is because we set the goals and then we don't literally create the habits day to day and ask ourselves, is this a life that I would want to live and get excited every single day to wake up and do? And if the answer is no, then we need to start to work backwards from there.

John Jantsch (19:46): Yeah, actually, somebody inadvertently showed me their calendar this week. That was the most scariest thing I've ever seen. Just they from about seven in the morning to seven at night had something every 15 minutes growth. I think it's stage four maybe growth a lot of times happens to people and maybe people you've worked with, they've gotten some of this other clutter out of the way. And so growth happens and then another problem shows up, quality starts to fade. I mean, how do you constantly juggle those two things that are sometimes in opposition?

Alyson Caffrey (20:17): It's interesting, I have an entire section in the book about this because that is by far with agency work. The biggest thing I've seen. So the chapter is called Classic Coca-Cola Quality. And I tell this story about how Coca-Cola launched this thing called New Coke, and it just failed. Epically failed. They tested it, they asked the market, they did all these things around launching this new product, and it was terrible. Folks actually started stocking up on Coca-Cola Classic because they petrified that it was going to go away. Then it's either, I was joking about it, I was like, this is either the best marketing scheme ever, or it was just the biggest classic face plant for Coca-Cola to launch this new thing. And really what it came down to was the quality, right? It came down to, well, people preferred this over that and they thought that they were going in the direction of what people wanted, but ultimately they needed to listen to their people.

(21:13): And so what they did was they launched Coca-Cola Classic. So first and foremost, if you're in a growth stage, keep asking your people for their feedback 100%. That is the best way that you will know and understand and just open up the conversation that, Hey, listen, we're going through a growth period right now and I still really value your feedback and I want to make sure that you continue to get results, even if there are several missteps in your fulfillment process and you're still working out some stuff because you've opened up that loop with your clients and because they know that it's important to you that you hear from them, they're going to be a little bit more understanding if there are a couple of missteps. So that's number one. Just open up that and listen to your clients. Second thing is to make sure that we're defining two types of quality.

(21:57): First is production quality. So that's the timeline through which things are delivered. And the second is outcome, quality. So that's ad spend. That's specific outcomes that you are getting for your clients and quality levels there. So defining those metrics are going to be absolutely instrumental. And then just again, do that little equation, right? Consider to yourself, we have 20 clients right now where we can ship websites in about three weeks time at this level of quality, measurable. If we had 50, here's what that would look like. The clearer you can get on those metrics, the easier it is to run possible resourcing scenarios, and you can kind of hedge these growth points and these friction points a little bit simpler.

John Jantsch (22:42): This is a scary idea for some people, but I'm always telling you have capacity ahead of demand, because that's where I see people really get in trouble is like, oh crap, we just sold a whole bunch of more work. Let's go fix it somehow, as opposed to, oh, we've got the capacity and our normal systems to deliver. Okay, last question. Last idea is profits and prosper. I dunno about you, but I'm just amazed at the businesses I've come across over the years. Were profits in particular just aren't even part of the equation. It's like, I want to get paid a job. And the idea of working profits into it, I don't know if you're familiar with Mike Al's work profits first. That idea is just so foreign to people.

Alyson Caffrey (23:24): Yeah, I love Profit First and I think being disciplined in prioritizing profit, either in distribution to owner and key stakeholders or in early growth years, reinvesting into the business and the professional development of the leaders or both, right? If we've got the margins and they're really is critical. I think it's John Maxwell does Leader Lid. It's like a really famous concept and he talks about that the leader or the organization will only grow to the capacity that the leader has professionally and personally developed. And I think if we leave out profits, not only are we doing our business a disservice because businesses exist to be profitable, we exist to make money and reinvest that money into growth and reinvest that money into our communities and into our families and all those things. Understanding that economically, it's our job to be profitable, I think is first. Second is that we are going to do our business and our community and our teammates a disservice by not reinvesting our profits into our professional development, especially in those early years.

(24:28): And then creating a professional development budget as things start to get a little bit more sophisticated. I mean, hands down has been the absolute leader in why operations agency has been able to grow to the point that it is. And why I've been able to confidently lead and be able to get folks unstuck with their operations is because of the level of professional development that I've done over the years. And I think a lot of folks forget about that and they think, well, I'm just going to discount my prices and tough seasons and I'm just going to take this project or what have you. But being disciplined and saying, Nope, this is our pricing because this is our scoping and this is our profit margin, I promise. Well, sorry, I can't make any financial promises probably on a podcast, but I will say that it has been my experience that the more I say no to projects that are hefty discounts or things that perhaps I'm not excited about or don't fit into our model specifically, I have been rewarded tenfold on the other side with projects that are exactly in our wheelhouse, exactly in our scope, and exactly within the profits that we desire.

John Jantsch (25:29): And had you taken those less than desirable projects, that opportunity may not have come your way. I see that all the time. It's like, I'm busy doing this work over here, so I can't see the real thing, the opportunity that's in front of me. So Alison, you want to tell people or invite people where they might connect with you, find out more about your work, obviously find out about how they can acquire the book.

Alyson Caffrey (25:50): Yeah, of course. Well, the book is on Amazon. I'm most active on Instagram, so you can follow us at Operations agency and if you DM me Duct Tape, I'll send you my five best agency SOPs, absolutely no opt-in absolutely free. So that I think will be the really best way for folks to just see what the power of having really clear standard operating procedures looks like in your agency. And I have been totally victim in the past to not being able to actually see the results of something before I get a tiny taste. So I think that'll be a great place to start.

John Jantsch (26:22): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, and hopefully we'll run into you only these days out there on the road.

Alyson Caffrey (26:30): Thanks, John.

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To Niche or Not to Niche: The Pitfalls of Over-Specialization

To Niche or Not to Niche: The Pitfalls of Over-Specialization written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Ducttape Marketing Podcast with John Janstch

Week two of your favorite episodes, this time (surprisingly) a solo show: In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I talked about a topic on my mind for a while: the evolution of niche marketing. In the dynamic marketing world, strategies are ever-evolving, and staying ahead of the curve is crucial for success. Discover how adapting to the changing tides can lead to tremendous success for businesses and marketing professionals; however, why might it not be for everyone?

Key Takeaway:

In marketing, focusing on a niche can be advantageous and limiting. While specialization can bring efficiencies and higher value to clients, it also leads to increased competition and the risk of being overshadowed by template-driven solutions. Learn how to transition from tacticians to orchestrators and leverage your strategic skills to serve your niche.

 

Topics I cover

• [00:14] The evolution of niche marketing
• [01:14] The cons of niche marketing
• [02:08] Tactics for niche marketing
• [03:40] Drawbacks of niche marketing
• [05:22] How to become an orchestrator
• [07:26] Develop strategic vision
• [08:38] Learn about our methodology

 

More About The Agency Certification Intensive Training:

• Learn more about the Agency Certification Intensive Training here

 

Get Your Free AI Prompts To Build A Marketing Strategy:

• Download now

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:14): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today. I'm going to do a solo show, so it's just me. Well, I guess it's just me and you, right? Alright, so here's what I'm going to talk about. The evolution of niche marketing, or is it niche? I don't know. I mean, it depends on who you're talking to, right? So you've probably heard this countless times. The riches are in the niches. So I think this is rung true. This idea is rung true. I don't know, probably like a decade or so. And I think a lot of businesses have found success narrowing their focus to a specific industry. And I think there are a lot of pros to this. I think some of the pros are undeniable. I mean, if you imagine if you're a marketing agency and you have developed Google ad campaigns for dentists in Cleveland, I'm pretty sure those same campaigns and keywords and ads even will be successful in, I don't know, Detroit.

(01:14): And so there's a lot of efficiencies, frankly, in this model. And ironic thing is it's a lot cheaper for you once you get all these efficiencies down. You've got content, you've got campaigns, you've got emails all working in various markets. You don't have to write them over and over again. So it's a lot cheaper for you to provide that service. And the flip side of that is typically people will pay more because, well, my industry, you specialize in working with my industry. So there's a belief at least that you can provide more value for doing that. So I mean, the pros are obvious, I think, for a lot of people that have gone down that road. But I believe that there are some negatives that are evolving that I think present actually a great opportunity. I mean, if you are niched down in that industry or you're thinking about trying to go after a specific industry, I think the market's flooded.

(02:08): I think that you might have some real competitive challenges, but personally, just as a side note, probably this is probably a topic for another day, but I'll cram it in here. I've always found that the idea of narrowing down to a single industry was a tad limiting and maybe even potentially boring, at least for me. Again, this is maybe my personal opinion, but to me it's never really been about an industry, but about an ideal client. So I've always enjoyed a focus on client behavior, their problems, the way they invest in solving those problems. To me, that is a greater driver of fit. So you can actually have a narrow focus. It doesn't have to necessarily be on an industry. It can be on who you like to serve, a type of client you like to serve. I mean, we lead with strategy before tactics.

(02:56): You've certainly heard me say that before, and frankly is actually limiting by itself because there are a lot of people that just want tactics. They just want this thing they heard about this week from somebody. So there are lots of ways to think about narrowing. It doesn't just have to be on a niche, but let me just say this idea about the niche landscape. I think it's really changing for service providers. Flooded niches. I think competition intensified. I mean, if you go looking right now, if you're thinking to yourself, I'm an SEO firm and I'm going to specialize in working with HVAC contractors, for example, I hate to tell you, but there are not just one. There are many, many SEO firms that are really trying to tackle that industry. In a lot of cases. They've really mastered it. I mean, there are SEO agencies that can get an A to C firm in most cities on page one.

(03:47): Now, I would suggest there's some other limiting factors. I would suggest that in many cases it's very expensive, but what I think a lot of people kind of fell prey to in a way was the easy button. I think another example I used SEO, but website designers. I mean, almost every industry has some sort of template driven website builder that can push your site live in 48 hours for $199 a month. So really as a marketing agency particularly, I mean, how do you compete with that? Here are the drawbacks of course, that I think people are starting to realize, and in a way, bear with me, what presents, I think the opportunity, there are horror stories that certainly maybe you've heard. I've heard maybe if you're a business owner, maybe you've experienced a lot of these niche providers took advantage of the efficiencies, if you will, of serving one market and now all the content that they're producing is just duplicate.

(04:45): The campaigns are identical. There's in many cases a lack of ownership over the content or even the strategies. I can't tell you how many times we've had people come to us and say, I'm not getting any results from my current provider, but I'm locked into this contract, or I'm locked into their proprietary tools and they're telling me that if I went out, I lose everything. My website, my content, my campaign's all gone. I don't even own any of those. And I understand how people got into this situation. I mean, it was cheap. It was the easy button. They promised the moon. A lot of business owners don't really want to pay attention to marketing. So it was very easy to abdicate, if you will, of their marketing. But I think I'm finally getting to the 0.6 minutes in herein lies the opportunity. I think that as a marketer, as a consultant, as an agency, as a fractional CMO, as a fractional marketing department, as a fractional marketing director, whatever terminology or positioning you want to use, I think businesses are starting to slowly grasp that marketing is not just a bunch of tactics.

(05:57): It's my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We've been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that's affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try ActiveCampaign for free for 14 days and there's no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That's right, duct Tape Marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link. We'll also receive 15% off an annual plan. That's activecampaign.com/duct tape. Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only.

(07:02): So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign. Today, the opportunity is to become the orchestrator. I mean, competing on tactics alone is a race to the bottom pricewise. And so I think you're kind of dooming your business as a consultant if you are just providing tactics. I'm not saying those tactics aren't needed and that there aren't people that won't pay for them, but it's a race to the bottom pricewise. So if you're the orchestrator, if you're the strategic provider, if you're the person that is actually building the plan, then you can use all of those providers. I think businesses need someone who can weave together the tactical strengths. If you want to focus on a very specific industry focus as that industry's fractional CMO, then take advantage of the fact that there are great content producers and website producers and SEO folks and paid ad campaign folks that specialize in that industry.

(08:02): Use them, use the fact that they have built a robust platform that you can actually use very cheaply, but then you can pass on your strategy and be the orchestrator for that industry. And that's again, because so many people have been burned, I think that they're looking for that trusted advisor who can actually make sense of the various parts, the fact that everybody's selling a piece of the pie. So somebody who can come in and say, look, I'm going to run this for you. I'm going to actually direct the people in your organization, be your niche's fractional CMO or marketing director. I mean, start with Strategic vision. Assemble the dream team of experts that are out there and just embrace the pool of skilled tacticians, guide them, leverage their skills for maximum, I think the future. I think that's the opportunity. In fact, it might be the only thing left.

(08:57): I mean, AI is making the tactics even cheaper. So I think being the person that is pulling the strings, whatever metaphors we want to use is really the opportunity. So the riches may indeed be in the niches, but I think it's more about driving the niche strategy than ever before. So my recommendation, dive deep to the fractional niche marketing, become the trusted orchestrator. Discover one of the most profitable ways to position your business against the price driven tactics providers. So I'm curious your thoughts on niche marketing. I'd love to hear from you as I always do, but I also want to remind you in case you forgot, didn't know first time listener, that for the last decade or so, I've actually been training marketing agencies on this idea of fractional CMO of being a strategist. We license our methodology and our system for creating strategy first, which we've done now thousands of times.

(09:59): It is fall of 2023 when I'm recording this. We've run about 60 agencies through our licensing program just this year alone. I think more and more people are waking up to this idea that they have to have a differentiator to compete today. And certainly tactics is a tough way to compete. So if you want to know more about our fractional CMO system that we will gladly license to you, just check out DTM world slash cmo. So it's just DTM world slash cmo, and you can find lots of amazing information about our system and how you might acquire this approach to drive your business, to scale your business. I mean, we've certainly licensed our system, but we've also been training agencies so long that we also teach on lead generation, lead conversion, fulfillment, bringing in account managers. We have a network of over a hundred agencies that collaborate actively.

(10:56): So tons and tons to really either get you started or to really reposition your business. I would say about a third of the people that join us are just starting a business. They see this as the fast track to really get going. And probably the rest of folks that join us are often either web designers or somebody that has really realized that selling tactics is tough and they need to sell strategy. And then other businesses that are consultants, they've just been kind of doing it all, making it up with every new client that see this as really the fast track to significantly improve their billings as well as their profits. So at any rate, thanks for listening. Take care. We love those reviews. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days out there on the road.

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Weekend Favs October 5th

Weekend Favs October 5th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

• • Automizy  – AI-driven email marketing software that helps predict subject line performance and optimize email campaigns for better open rates.

  • ZyraTalk  – An AI chatbot that engages website visitors, answers questions and captures leads to increase conversion rates.

  • Morphio  – A marketing analytics and prediction tool that uses AI to monitor campaigns, identify anomalies, and recommend optimizations.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

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Fractional CMOs As Strategy Architects with Angelo Ponzi

Fractional CMOs As Strategy Architects with Angelo Ponzi written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Ducttape Marketing Podcast with Angelo Ponzi

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview(ed) Angelo Ponzi. This week, we´re going to be re-gifting you your favorite episodes! Angelo Ponzi is a marketing and branding strategist who works with small to middle-market companies as their Fractional CMO. His company, Craft, focuses on three strategic pillars for success: Insights, Brand, and Plan. These pillars are to develop effective and efficient programs for building enduring brands and sustainable business growth.

Key Takeaway:

Fractional CMOs, besides being a flexible and cost-effective solution for businesses, contribute to long-term growth through strategy development, messaging refinement, and navigating marketing challenges. Angelo highlights the importance of balancing new business endeavors with client service when operating one’s agency. Staying actively engaged in networking and marketing efforts is essential to remain present in the fractional CMO arena and seize potential opportunities.

Questions I ask Angelo Ponzi:

• [01:12] How do you define the term Fractional CMO?
• [02:02] What kind of business and what kind of challenges are they facing that you think makes an ideal fit for a fractional strategic marketing hire?
• [03:34] If somebody hires a CMO, do they feel like they’re also hiring an implement mentor, or are they strictly separate functions?
• [04:57] Are there ever some turf wars, even though you’re brought in to help them orchestrate better?
• [06:25] Besides the cost component, what other things might you suggest about the fractional CMO model being a good idea for businesses?
• [09:52] Are you finding much more recognition of the concept and the term, particularly for midsize business owners?
• [11:04] What hard lessons have you learned as a Fractional CMO?
• [13:05] How do you scale this model?
• [18:03] Do you focus on the same thing frequently?

More About Angelo Ponzi:

• Connect with Angelo on LinkedIn.
• Angelo’s website.

 

If you enjoyed this episode, check out the Ultimate Guide to Scaling a Fractional CMO Business.

Duct Tape Transcript

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(00:30): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Angelo Ponzi. He's a marketing and branding strategist that works with small to mid-market companies as their fractional chief marketing officer, fractional CMO. His company Craft focuses on three strategic pillars for success, insights brand and plan to develop effective and efficient programs for building enduring brands and sustainable business growth. So Angela, welcome to the show,

Angelo Ponzi (01:03): John. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

John Jantsch (01:05): So I still think there's a lot of confusion around it, like a lot of terms in marketing. So I'm just going to go ahead and say, if somebody says you, you're a fractional CMO, what is that? How do you describe that? How do you define that term?

Angelo Ponzi (01:17): Yeah. Well, I think simply it's a part-time outsource contract situation. So for me, fractional being that it's not a short-term contract, it's a long-term engagement where I'm going into the organization or depending on my remote client, where I'm engaged on a weekly basis, sometimes daily basis with them. And so think of me as the guy down the hallway, not the guy across the country. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:48): So I mean, would you describe a business that you think is a typical great fit for that? I mean, most people are familiar with the C-Suite roles, a chief marketing officer inside of an organization, but what kind of business or what kind of challenge are they facing that you think makes an ideal fit for a fractional strategic marketing hire?

Angelo Ponzi (02:10): Sure. In most of the companies that I've dealt with, they have some kind of a marketing manager or a team in there. Typically, they tend to be a little more transactional in nature, just tactically oriented. And so I hear things like, our sales aren't growing, our messaging is not correct. Our competition is eating our lunch. And so looking at those kinds of issues, so they can't get to that next level with someone who's more of a tactical transactional person. So they may start to think of a strategic person, however, a full-time CMO doesn't necessarily come cheap. And so they wrestle with how do I get a senior person without having to have all that expense? And that's typically what get engaged or when they'll call me, because again, depending on the client, how much time I'm engaged, but I sit in that C-suite level and helping develop strategies and directions and messaging and competitive differentiators, and then drive those down into the people that actually execute.

John Jantsch (03:21): Do you get yourself in engagements where they're like, Angelo, this is great, but who's going to do all this? I mean, is there ever an expectation that you are going to do the work or that any strategic, if somebody hires A CMO, do they feel like they're also hiring an implement mentor, or is it strictly separate functions?

Angelo Ponzi (03:43): Yeah, well, that's always the dilemma for me. It's my nature to tend to go across the line and start facilitating and doing, but I'm pretty clear upfront is what my purpose is. If someone calls me and says, look it, I need a website, I need a social media or digital campaign, my reaction is let's talk about your messaging, your strategies, and if that's not correct, I have to start to the left, right? I got to talk to your customers that look at the competition, examine the marketplace and work our way towards execution. So I like to refer to myself sometimes as an architect, I'm building that foundational strategy. And then once the plans are in place, then I will sometimes call myself a general contractor and therefore I'll bring in outside people to execute or work with the internal teams. But I do cross the fence, but a lot of times they're like, I'm not going to pay you to frankly write a blog. It's too expensive.

John Jantsch (04:44): Yeah. So do you find internal teams, I hear this a lot. Do you find that sometimes there's some turf? Like, wait a minute, I thought that's what we did. Why are we bringing in this outside person doesn't know our business? Is there ever some turf wars sometimes, even though you're brought in maybe to help them orchestrate better?

Angelo Ponzi (05:03): I can honestly say, actually, I can honestly say it's only happened maybe once or twice where I'll spend, I'm thinking of a technology company. A couple of years ago they brought me in, the marketing person was out of college for a couple of years. He had his own vision. They brought me in, I revamped everything, redid all their messaging, their plans, and then here's the plan to implement. And within three months, he was back doing what he wanted to do because they didn't know how to really manage him. But I would say in most situations, I'm very collaborative, so it's not my way or the highway. So I find that even after I leave, they're implementing. I have a company in the streaming space that I helped them when they launched. That was five years ago. When I see him constantly, he'll be the first to say, I'm still working on the strategies you gave us five years ago. And so that's really rewarding. But yeah, that is always a challenge, right? Because not invented here, somebody wants to put their own mark on it.

John Jantsch (06:08): Yeah. I'm sure there are some cases, I'm going to assume there's some cases you've run into where they're considering hiring you versus considering hiring a full-time strategic hire. If you were trying to help somebody work through the pros and cons, besides the cost component, which is obviously a huge selling point on the fractional approach, what are some other things that you might suggest that why the fractional CMO model is a good idea for them?

Angelo Ponzi (06:39): Well, partially too. It's really what does that strategic leader need to do and what is the long-term play with that leader? Are you going to have somebody who's who can totally stay engaged throughout the time and do all the things that you need 'em to do, otherwise they start to gravitate into the tactical and then you don't really need that. I have a current client where we're looking, I'm filling the strategic leader role, and at the end of the day, they don't need a full-time me, but they need more worker bees, if you will. And so my recommendation is keep me engaged. Of course, that's what I would like, but instead of hiring someone like me full-time, take that money and then let's invest in more people at the real marketing level that the tactical level that needed to get things done. I was brought in last year with a consumer products company that had a CMO.

(07:35): They let him go, and he called me and said, Hey, I'm thinking about hiring. I think I need a fractional. And then about three weeks later, he called me and said, no, you know what? I decided to go. And then three months later, he called me and said, I haven't found anybody. I think my original idea was great, come in for 90 days, help me. And I was there for eight months before we brought in. I helped bring in my own replacement at that point in time. They really needed somebody there. And there was a situation where I was there three days a week, so I literally was in the office and spending the majority of my time working for that organization.

John Jantsch (08:12): Do you find that to me, one of the benefits I think too, is a lot of times you bring in that CMO, well, they're going to say, we need to build a team internally. And so they start kind of down the traditional path of hiring, whereas I'm assuming that in many cases you kind of look at this and say, no, we just need this expertise to do this one thing, and then we can rent this to do this one thing. And I mean, you're really able to put together a much more affordable approach for exactly what they need, aren't you?

Angelo Ponzi (08:41): Yeah, no, absolutely. It's current client, they had a digital firm primarily writing blogs, and I analyzed it, and every blog had to be rewritten. And after eight, nine months, you would've thought that they understood the business. So I tried to engage with them, and ultimately we ended up parting ways. But instead of hiring another firm just like them, I went out and found a content writer that for a fraction of the cost, I could have twice as many blogs for literally a third of the money that I was paying them already. And so that is one of the things I look at. To me, I always look at any client I work with is my business. I was fortunate to, over the years, I grew a couple of businesses, I was fortunate to sell them, and I understand that a dollar is a dollar, and if I have to watch it for me, I have to watch it for you. So it's really about maximizing the talent and the dollars that we have.

John Jantsch (09:42): I have been doing this approach probably for 15 years, but didn't use the term fractional CMO because it didn't mean anything to a small mid-size business at the time. Are you finding there's a much more recognition of the concept and the term when you go out and talk to particularly mid-size business owners?

Angelo Ponzi (10:00): Yeah, absolutely. And I'll go back. I mean, I'm heading into my 10th year, and in those first three or four years, it was like, I don't understand what a fractional is. Are you contract? Are you outsourced? What are you, right? So there was different terms floating around. I haven't had anybody really recently say they don't understand it. I just say, you're renting my time basically during the course of the week. So I think it's better understood. I'd even think some of the value of having someone like myself that clients find now versus because it's a tough decision, do you spend that kind of money? I had a client the other day that, again, looking at bringing in more workers than strategic leaders, and he said to me, well, what if we could hire you? And I suppose my answer was, you can't. It's not what I want to do because I knew I would eventually, I would just be pulling my hair out because they don't need someone full-time like me.

John Jantsch (11:00): So as you've grown this and scaled it yourself, are there some hard lessons learned that you might share to say these are some of the landmines that you might look for?

Angelo Ponzi (11:14): Well, I think first of all, for me, and unfortunately it was a very hard lesson. I had an opportunity back in maybe 17, I think it was, to go in as a fractional, but it was like an eight month contract. And I was like, this is great. The money was great. I was excited, and when the contract was over, I was sitting there. I have no business. I wasn't doing any marketing, I wasn't keeping the pipeline. So anybody out there listening, if you're doing what I do or something even similar, having your own agency, I mean, it is a constant balance of doing new business while you're servicing the clients. I personally now, I would say in the course of the week, I spend a full day throughout the week, but networking, doing my own marketing, doing stuff like this and just making sure that I'm staying ever present, because you just never know.

(12:09): I mean, I have one prospect that I pitched in February. He literally said, you're hired, but there's no contract yet. Now it's August. I still think you'll come around, but I'm on his time. He's not on my time. So that's probably the biggest lesson that I've learned and making sure that you have a point of view and you put yourself out there. I mean, I have a blogging program, a newsletter program. I do emails, I do LinkedIn, I do public speaking. I just want to be able to have content. It's all content to me to refer

John Jantsch (12:44): People too. Absolutely. Yeah. We actually teach people how to start this model, and I tell them, especially when they're just getting started, I said, the thing nobody tells you is about 50% of this job is selling, but that's true of really any business. When you start it, that kind of leads to one of the challenges I see a lot of people, how do you scale this model? I mean, in the traditional sense, somebody's A CMO, they jump out on their own. They go, I'm going to be a fractional CMO, and they end up selling a fourth of their time and basically saying, I'm fully employed. I'm getting paid well for my time, but I can't really scale a business. Have you run into that? Have you addressed that?

Angelo Ponzi (13:25): Yeah, it's a really interesting challenge. So before I formed my agency, for example, this was many years ago, I actually, they didn't call it fractional, but I broke off as a consultant. And so I left an agency, decided to be a strategic planner for agencies, and then eventually I came to the conclusion after about three years, why am I doing this for you? Why don't I do it for myself? And so I kind of scaled that. So in this particular model for me, I have identified other CMOs, fractional CMOs or VP leaders, if you will, that are out on their own that I can partner with. One of my biggest clients last year is actually a competitor, but I have a background in research. So they don't do research. They don't do really branding and messaging and positioning. They're more kind of internal management. And so we compliment each other.

(14:28): So one of the things that I did to scale is I identified in my trading area who my competitors are. I've literally met with every one of 'em trying to figure out are we really competitors or can we work together? And I would say the majority of 'em I can work with. And so I've also identified in some of the other key areas. So I have a business analyst that works with me that I pretty much dominate. I have a data scientist that works with me. I have a brand strategist that actually I worked with for years, even in my own agency that happened to, I lost their job during covid and now works for me as kind of a behind the scenes. So I've been scaling by putting other people in place, frankly, to do some of the work that allows me to continue to devote some of my time to networking and building the business, but also when I have to be in front of a client,

John Jantsch (15:23): The mistake I see some people make is just like, you get 25% of my time, what do you want? And it's like they're dictating. There's no scope in agencies. We'd scope things out. And I see a lot of people when they do these consulting things, they don't do that. And so they're sort of at the whim of a client who doesn't really know what they need. And I think that's a key change that I think can allow people to scale this.

Angelo Ponzi (15:51): Yeah, well, one of the things I did to get around that is I created an assessment that I give at the beginning of every engagement just to really try to understand where they think they are, where they really are, where they think they are, but also among the team, I look for alignment, internal alignment. And so that has allowed me to actually through the analysis to say, okay, here's where we've got some real issues and some problems you want to be, I'm just going through this with a client now where when I joined them back in February, they had a $5 million goal for this year increase in revenue. Well, as I started to dig into the data, it's like, where'd that number come from? Your average growth is only 8% over the last three years. How do you go from 8% frankly to a 37% increase?

(16:39): I don't see how you're getting there. So some number was picked out of the air. So trying to bring, creating strategies, now that's giving me guidance as opposed to, what do you think? If I would've just said, okay, I'm going to support a 37% increase, which I did originally, and then eventually I've swung them back to say, okay, how are we going to get, maybe it's 15%, not the eight, but the 15. And I literally just said this to one of my marketing managers today. There's an endless amount of things to do in marketing. You've got a plan and you always go back to the plan and just if you got, you are unsure of your messaging or somebody in sales is pushing back on you, try to understand what's happening with them. Go talk to them, go listen to a call. So I find that sometimes in that marketing manager role, they tend to go, oh, well, that was my assignment. I did it and now what do I do?

John Jantsch (17:34): Yeah. It's interesting. I find that we spend as much time, especially early on telling people what not to do as opposed to what to do, because always this temptation to say, oh, there's a new thing out there. We have to do it. As opposed to doing any of them, right?

Angelo Ponzi (17:51): Yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch (17:52): And that's what I was going to ask you kind of halfway answered it anyway, but let's say we get through the assessment. Obviously the assessment's going to tell you maybe some direction, but do you typically focus on, do you find that you end up focusing on the same thing pretty frequently? What to fix first, so to speak?

Angelo Ponzi (18:10): Actually, no, because they have, it's like our sales aren't growing or we're not achieving, or we think we have an issue. And I have found that if I can execute my assessment in the process that I do, I can uncover things that they're not thinking about. Good case in point, this was last year working with a manufacturing rep organization, been around for 70 plus years. And so in talking to them and say, our clients love us, they're mechanical engineers, they know us. We've been, we're a focus. We're always included, but I got them to agree to let me talk to their customers. Originally it was like, wow, I don't waste your time. What we found is that they were right. Everybody knows them, everybody includes them. However, their primary customers were about ready to retire. The new generation of engineers had no idea who they were or knew them, but they were now thinking about environmental products and sustainability products, not the gas guzzlers, if you will, that are being put out. And so all of a sudden we identified a potential opportunity that they would've never seen until it happened. So now they were able to get ahead of it. So it's that kind of stuff that we get to uncover, but that wasn't one, that wasn't something they told me to go do. That was just something that came, cream of the cop came rising up and we able to tackle it.

John Jantsch (19:41): Yeah, I have had so many insights over the years by talking to people's customers. I mean, they know very little about why their customers buy from them sometimes. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? Or they make assumptions that are wrong

Angelo Ponzi (19:53): Or what the salespeople tell 'em. Right? Right. There's a question I always like to ask is I ask the clients, do you think your clients are buying, are aware of all the products and services you sell? And almost always they say no. And to me it's like, well then what are you doing to educate them? You could be leaving a lot of money on the table if they just knew more. And then we find out I asked those questions on the flip side, and almost across the board, the client will say, now I don't really understand all the stuff they sell. I only know this. So right there, there's a gap, right. So anyway,

John Jantsch (20:30): It's fine. Yeah, that's actually some easy money sometimes, isn't it? Well, Angela, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. You want to invite people to connect with you anywhere or find out more about your work.

Angelo Ponzi (20:39): Sure. That would be great. The best place, of course, is to go to LinkedIn. You can connect with me there. That's the easiest. Also, all my contact info is there. As far as my website, I actually encourage people to sign up. I do publish a newsletter through LinkedIn every couple of weeks, and so do that. And that's the best way to find out more about me.

John Jantsch (20:59): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments out of your day, and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Angelo Ponzi (21:05): Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

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