AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing

AI, Analytics & Content Strategy: Andy Crestodina on the Future of Digital Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes Andy Crestodina, co-founder and CMO of Orbit Media Studios, to explore the rapidly changing world of digital marketing. Andy shares practical insights on using AI for content strategy, analytics, and website optimization—while emphasizing the enduring importance of quality, relationships, and human creativity. The discussion covers everything from AI-powered audience simulations to the evolving role of SEO, and how marketers can cut through the noise to focus on what really matters.

About the Guest

Andy Crestodina is the co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios, a top-rated digital agency in Chicago. A recognized authority on content strategy, SEO, and web analytics, Andy is celebrated for his ability to make complex marketing topics accessible and actionable. He’s the author of “Content Chemistry,” a sought-after speaker, and a regular contributor to leading marketing publications. Andy’s hands-on approach and innovative thinking have made him a trusted guide for marketers navigating digital transformation.

• Website: orbitmedia.com
• LinkedIn: Andy Crestodina

Actionable Insights

• The future of marketing will involve testing content and strategies with AI-generated audience personas before launching to the real market.
• AI’s biggest long-term value is improving quality and performance, not just efficiency or cost-savings.
• Human relationships, creativity, and high-touch service will always set great brands apart from “good enough” automation.
• Content that stands out will be driven by strong points of view, original research, collaboration, and highly visual formats.
• The SEO landscape is shifting: informational content will see less traffic from search, while commercial intent and “visit website” keywords remain essential.
• LinkedIn newsletters and platform-native content are quickly outpacing traditional SEO for B2B visibility.
• Marketers should use analytics for actionable insights—such as CTA performance, video engagement, and conversion rates—rather than generic dashboards or reporting.
• AI can help uncover hidden data trends and quickly transform insights into new campaign ideas, but quality still requires human oversight and creativity.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:10 – AI Personas and the Future of Marketing
  Andy predicts marketers will soon use AI-generated “synthetic audiences” to test ideas before launch.
• 03:30 – Focus on Quality, Not Just Efficiency
  Why the real opportunity is in improving performance, not just saving time.
• 05:48 – The Limits of AI in Design
  Where automation can help creative teams—and where pixel-perfect service still matters.
• 09:39 – Content Creation: AI vs. Originality
  The danger of “good enough” content and why strong opinions and research win.
• 11:21 – SEO’s Shifting Role
  How commercial-intent keywords and platform-native content are now the best route to visibility.
• 15:40 – Analytics That Matter
  Andy’s favorite ways to use GA4 and AI for real business insights, not just reports.
• 21:06 – The Coming Age of Automated Client Interactions
  Imagining a near future where AI agents help qualify leads, prep sales teams, and remove friction where clients want it.

Pulled Quotes

“AI’s real value isn’t just efficiency. It’s about pushing performance and improving quality.”
— Andy Crestodina

“Content strategy is about to have a great moment—as the tide goes out, strong opinions, research, and collaboration will stand out even more.”
— Andy Crestodina

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.346)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Andy Crestodina. He's a recognized authority in digital marketing, co-founder and chief marketing officer of Orbit Media Studios and an influential voice on content strategy, SEO and website optimization. With two decades of hands-on experience, Andy is known for breaking down complex marketing tactics into practical, actionable steps, my kind of guy.

He's a sought after speaker and the author of content chemistry and a regular contributor to leading industry publications. So Andy, welcome to the show.

Andy Crestodina (00:38.136)

Thanks for having me, John. Glad to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.438)

We have known each other about each other, whatever the definition is for many years. and I just discovered this the first time you've been on my show. So why don't you come back like weekly now.

Andy Crestodina (00:45.259)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (00:51.896)

I would never say no. I'd hang out with you all day, John, if I could.

John Jantsch (00:56.469)

So let's, let's jump into AI. mean, what the heck? What are we 41 seconds in? Where do you see it making the biggest real world impact for marketers today? I know that's a pretty big question.

Andy Crestodina (01:02.583)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (01:10.924)

No, I think about it a lot. I think that probably the future of marketing is lowering risk and cost by building synthetic members of a target audience and then testing content, pages, calls to action strategies with that AI persona. So, Sims, like running little, making a thing and getting feedback on it before you put it in the market, because I think it's likely, it seems to me that we'll look back at this era and say,

Wow, super primitive. You used to just make a thing and make it live and hope for the best and check it later. Probably not in the future. We'll do it in a bit more sophisticated way.

John Jantsch (01:50.894)

That's really interesting. You know, I hadn't really thought about that, that idea, because I think so many people are focused on automations and efficiencies and getting rid of people, you know, even. But, I mean, you're obviously, I mean, I, I'm really of the camp that it's going to change some things around in terms of people, but I think it also is, you know, they're already seeing it creating some demand in some areas for people.

Andy Crestodina (02:03.186)

No. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:18.946)

that didn't exist before. is the concern that, was it Sam Altman that said like 95 % of marketing or white collar jobs will be gone in five years?

Andy Crestodina (02:25.953)

Yeah.

You

Andy Crestodina (02:33.066)

Yeah, I think there's, I'm going to stay out of the prediction game and wondering, but, I'll tell you what I'm here for and have been from the beginning and you too, it's, don't, I don't wake up in the morning hoping to save 10 minutes or half an hour. I want to do great work. I want to see the performance of that work. I want to know that I'm, that I'm doing quality work. I want to see the, the feedback and the performance of everything in the data.

So really everything I've ever done with AI, and this is hundreds of experiments, half by day on Saturday was building a custom GPT and testing it. But everything that I've done is really just been about trying to improve quality. And if it turns out to be faster, that's lovely. But what we're all trying to do is to drive an outcome. So I think a lot of marketers are overemphasizing efficiency and speed.

John Jantsch (03:09.026)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (03:30.641)

and missing big opportunities to use it to push performance.

John Jantsch (03:36.002)

Yeah. one of the, ironically, one of the, think one of the enemies of quality is that we got so much on our plate, right? And I think that even quality relationships, I mean, I'm finding that if there's a lot of stuff that had to be done, but let's face it, it was grunt work, you know, that had to be done. And I do think that some people are feeling like, Hey, if I get that off my plate, it kind of frees my head up. And, know, even like I say, for, for more relationship building and

I think that's where quality is gonna come from, isn't it?

Andy Crestodina (04:06.762)

Absolutely. So it will give you a free hand to work harder on those, you know, the conversations you're having, prioritizing offline experiences, being part of communities, you know, just taking care of the people around you. But the one thing that I've been doing with a lot, and this was my very last call, talking to a client.

looking for opportunities to make these pages better, stronger, faster, more detailed and comprehensive. It's for a higher ed program. And we just gave Chad to PT the persona and gave it the page and said, we're looking to make this a more comprehensive page. Give us ideas. The very first idea was fantastic. It's like, which program is right for you. What? Wait, how? And the meeting sort of paused. Like everyone kind of held their breath for a second and asked, like, did we not?

do that? Wait, we didn't do that. Why didn't we do that? And there were several others, like three or four things. Yeah, so AI-powered gap analysis is one of my favorite things, but they're always best discovered through relationships and real-world human conversation.

John Jantsch (05:10.221)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:17.304)

So a lot of orbit media's work is or has been designed or at least design was an element of it. How do you feel about the design creative process right now? I think there's a lot of people trying to create tools that can automate a lot of things in that space. Where do you, do you, do you feel like, mean, there's, there's some really awful stuff coming out through that. mean, how do you feel about that space right now, where it is today and where you see it going?

Andy Crestodina (05:23.522)

Mm-hmm.

Andy Crestodina (05:40.792)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (05:48.226)

Well, design for interactive is a kind of a turning point happening now because these tools like Figma, where you're designing it somehow in a context where it's already responsive and the front end programming for things that web teams are building is sort of half done. Now, kind of like writing or image generation, the code generated by AI still requires a lot of review. No one's just grabbing it and assuming it's all

perfect, it's not. So there's a big gain there in the handoff between designers and programmers, but not, you know, there's still plenty of work to do. The other one I think is in design. What do you hire? What do you get when you hire a web company? Partly you want service, you want someone to listen to you, you want accountability, you want a thought partner and you want pixel perfection. I don't think AI is there. don't think that if you, brands big and small.

want to work with designers to get the thing to look just like they want it to look. The state of AI for UX, it all feels like these long shot prompts. It's just like, hope something good comes back and you can't really ask it to fine tune. It's just creating another one each time. don't know. So design for simple things, design direction, great, but not for pixel perfection.

John Jantsch (07:19.054)

I'm going to question how much of the market actually wants or understands pixel perfection. mean, aren't there isn't there a significant amount of the market that's like, that's good enough.

Andy Crestodina (07:29.836)

I'm sure there is. It's not mostly our audience. I had a 40 minute call with a client about how this circle, the brand is everything. And the edge of the circle needs to be a little bit closer to the edge of the box on both mobile and desktop. There are still lots of people who want their fingerprints on their design. I understand that. I don't think that.

John Jantsch (07:30.894)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (07:56.094)

Visitors care that much about the number of pixels between the circle and the edge of the box but so yeah, if you're looking for good enough or a great start or here's the You know a giant step in the in a good direction. It's awesome but but people really do like service and there's a Special thing that happens like you said about relationships, you know when creative teams work together to solve problems with clients and and leaders

John Jantsch (08:26.348)

Yeah, I I personally, again, I wouldn't put myself out there as being on the front line of image creation or whatnot with some of the tools, but some of the stuff I've done with it, I mean, every now and then it's like, yeah, that's okay. And then every now and then it's just like, that's like, that person has no face. How can I use that?

Andy Crestodina (08:43.96)

It's changing fast. It's changing fast. Image generation. I sort of wish I could go back and I would have put in the same prompt every month just to sort of see the evolution of it because it's improving quickly. But yeah, don't look too closely at hands. Text is still a problem. It's getting much, much better. But halfway through here at 2025, there are long shot prompts, let's be honest.

John Jantsch (09:00.696)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:11.618)

Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of maybe that's good enough, let's talk about content creation. I think a lot of people, that was probably the first use case for many people is, look, this can write this blog post for me. I think a lot of people are starting to find out that that's just not going to cut it. In fact, there, you know, I won't go as far as saying the old Google penalty thing, but I think that they're being penalized in the eyes of everything that's reading the content today.

Andy Crestodina (09:39.762)

Yeah, I don't see a reason to write an article, to publish an article if AI can create it because your target audience can write that same prompt and get that same article. That's in fact the last thing you should publish. So for the duct tape marketing audience and fans of yours and people who read my stuff, I think it should be obvious that the difference between AI generated, just garbage and

John Jantsch (09:45.356)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (10:05.72)

quickly made stuff in medium quality or the boring taste like water articles. And strong points of view, original research, deep content, like taking a stand, collaborative formats like we're doing now. This stuff is going to be even more different in the future. I think that content strategy is going to have a great moment here as the tide goes out and all these marketers just look like it becomes really clear.

No one's ever going to read that again. Whoever's byline that was just lost reputation. So yeah, strong opinion, original research, collaborative formats, highly visual content. These will feel more different than ever. So it's like influencers and video. These things will be, I think, more effective in the future than even they are today.

John Jantsch (11:00.76)

So as I listen to describe that, you know, the old game used to be, I mean, content and SEO or search visibility, certainly we're very married together. And as I listen to you describe that, mean, it really, I mean, is keyword ranking just not really a thing anymore? It's not important anymore?

Andy Crestodina (11:21.353)

Thank you for asking that. I'm seeing so much about this and I'm really excited to give this answer. Everyone needs to separate in their minds these two types of key phrases. People looking for answers are looking for articles. AI overviews will kind of give that person the answer. Click through rates to content marketing for search optimized articles will decline forever. It has been for five years anyway. commercial intent key phrases, what the buyer searches for.

Visit website intent key phrases. There's still tons of them. Separate in your analytics blog posts from your sales pages and then check the changes to traffic and then check the changes to rankings and click through rates and engagement because people who are making big decisions want to look at a website. They're going to click through it no matter what Google puts in their way.

John Jantsch (12:10.06)

Yeah, I think one of the pieces of that puzzle is that they're still getting, in many cases, even this long drawn out, you know, long tail phrase is still being provided in increasingly AI overviews. And so the game then becomes like, okay, I've already filtered. I'm not going to go look 10 places. I'm going to maybe pick one or two of these. So, so the game then becomes showing up in those AI overviews or whatever that looks like. is there a different approach to that?

Andy Crestodina (12:29.464)

For sure. Again, perfect question, John. I love this conversation. There's more to content than search. I see these posts. I don't have time to respond to them all. I'm not in it to like start a food fight, but content marketing is dead.

Because of SEO, that was your only channel. Is that all you ever thought it was about? So this is my number one B2B marketing strategy for content today is of course the LinkedIn newsletter. It was, okay, I've been doing it like now for like five years, but the visibility of my content is literally 10 times what it ever was before. How's that possible? Because I decided it was, you know, a sensible time to build on rented land, you know, because I, I saw this, the, the change is coming and adapted my strategy.

Because I'm now partnering with Big Tech, Google is not in business to help SEOs. But LinkedIn is in business to help content creators and publishers grow an audience on their platform. So no, our typical articles now get literally 10 times the visibility that they ever got before, even though click-through rates from search are down and declining. it doesn't bother me a bit.

John Jantsch (13:49.346)

Yeah, of course, anyone who's not familiar with your work, will say that part of, I think part of the reason, of course, consistency that you've provided, but also, mean, your articles go in, I mean, they're basically master classes. And so, you know, I think that that certainly has something to do with the reason that you're getting so much exposure is it's just terribly valuable.

Andy Crestodina (14:12.588)

That means so much to me coming from you. Thank you, John. But hopefully then that reinforces the point about writing things by hand. I I include contributor quotes in every article. There's almost no scroll depth at any article in which you can't see something like a visual or screenshot or video. I do lots of original research. They're carefully constructed, like very, very structured pieces with bullet lists and subheads and internal linking and...

And I've learned from people like you, like going way back to like, just be super direct and concise and get right to the point and eliminate, you know, omit needless words. You get it.

John Jantsch (14:52.62)

Well, I haven't mastered that one yet, but ask, ask anyone who's edited my, well, I had an editor one time that, on one of my books that said, you know, chapter is great, but it starts with a whole lot of throat clearing. I always remembered that one of my favorite quotes. So you do have been doing a lot. And I think that you just, you enjoy this, the getting into the data. You've been doing a lot with analytics.

Andy Crestodina (15:07.448)

I've been there. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:21.886)

and you know, maybe even suggesting that new ways to look at data, new, key indicators that maybe we haven't been taught to look at what's, what are some of your favorite kind of new ways that you think we ought to be looking at the data? Should we be able to unearth it?

Andy Crestodina (15:40.578)

Well, some of the most important insights waiting for you, literally sitting there just a few clicks away in GA4 are not the most visible. Like you got to go kind of build the thing. Yeah, it takes a minute. Some examples of useful metrics. What is it, or questions to ask and find the answer, then form hypotheses and take action. What is the click through rate on the call to action?

John Jantsch (15:50.166)

Right. Nothing's very visible in JFR.

John Jantsch (16:04.888)

Right.

Andy Crestodina (16:10.624)

on your most on your key pages. You gotta make a path exploration, takes a few minutes. You gotta learn how to do that. That's fine. How does embedding video change the engagement rate on articles? Are there URLs on your website that load with page not found as the title tag? What is the difference in conversion rates for visitors on mobile versus desktop?

John Jantsch (16:29.902)

Thank

Andy Crestodina (16:38.934)

Which of your articles is inspiring visitors to subscribe to your newsletter? Which URLs on your site have declining search traffic? We said a second ago. Are they sales pages? Are they everything? Or is it mostly just your content and articles and guides? These are all extremely useful things to know that can guide strategy and budgets. What's the output from those calories burned? It'll tell you.

But you got to know where to look. I don't do almost any reporting in Google Analytics. I don't build dashboards. I don't just go look at it for its own sake, but I do analysis every day.

John Jantsch (17:19.734)

How much are you taking what might be raw data or at least what you can get out of GA4 and just taking it to AI and say, ask me questions?

Andy Crestodina (17:30.986)

there's one or two use cases that you almost can't do without AI. For example, if you make a report that shows traffic to your thank you pages and then add a secondary dimension for date plus time, export that and AI will make a chart for you showing which day of week people become leads. There is no Tuesday in GA4, but if you give that report to AI, it'll show you. You can have it make a heat map matrix that show what time of day and day of week.

In a colorful little chart, people become leads, people subscribe to your newsletter, people watch videos, anything, any action, any event. So date plus time was useless to me before AI.

John Jantsch (18:12.13)

Yeah, that's interesting. The, the, one of the things that I think AI is quite good at, you know, it's basically a mathematician, right? So I think it's quite good at, at analytics and finding stuff that you're, I mean, it also sometimes makes huge mistakes. But I think that stuff you couldn't even see with your own eyes, I think it really can, can surface pretty quickly, can it?

Andy Crestodina (18:34.828)

Yeah. And then John, the next step. you know, find for me the campaigns that had the highest engagement rates. Okay. It looks at 200 campaigns and finds these ones had highest engagement rates. Now craft 10 new campaigns based on those. The next step after the analysis, that's why AI is really special. It's because, you you could just immediately go from insight to action, or at least brainstorming.

John Jantsch (18:55.052)

Mm. Right.

John Jantsch (19:03.414)

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So where's the noise that you think people ought to be tuning out? The buzzwords, the whatever agentic of the day is.

Andy Crestodina (19:14.968)

So in analytics, I'm exhausted by reporting and love analysis. In SEO, I'm exhausted by the SEO is dead or content is dead, but I love being discovered for commercial intent key phrases. In AI,

John Jantsch (19:25.421)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (19:41.826)

Boy, that's a really just, you're asking a really fun question. I believe that the responses are not nearly as good unless you have really like a conversation with it, that you're chatting with it, that you give it lots more inputs, including personas, and that you are not just having it make stuff for you. I'm exhausted by the write this thing for me. I'm really excited by and motivated by the, what are the gaps in this?

What else could this do? Give me 10 ideas. How could this be better? So I think there's shifts in every category and that there's, you know, do this stuff long enough and you realize like, actually the fun stuff's right over there.

John Jantsch (20:25.39)

So I know you don't want, or you mentioned that you didn't really want to be seen as like the crystal ball, but on, some of this stuff, but how far away are we from the idea where a client or a prospect is going to take an action on our website. And that's going to trigger for agents to do certain things on our behalf and, know, maybe even have a conversation with that person and, and really

You know, there's an element of removing humans from the entire interaction. I how far away are we from that? Or do you think that buyer behavior will dictate that we never go there?

Andy Crestodina (20:57.462)

Hmm.

Andy Crestodina (21:06.84)

I can easily imagine a CRM set up where when there's a new lead that it goes and researches this person and brand and then takes the first step toward potentially disqualifying them and then handling some kind of automated conversation saying like, thanks for reaching out. We probably don't fit, know, but maybe check out these other things instead. Here's some alternatives. Here's some, you know, possible providers.

But if the, but the sort of lead scoring thing, if it works, then it builds a whole guide. It does a bunch of research for you. looks at Dun & Bradstreet or checks out their LinkedIn profile. And then the rep gets this sort of like little coaching session with AI on how to talk to this prospect. And so again, that's exactly what you said a few minutes ago, where is it going to make us more efficient in it by setting aside like these low quality leads and help us prioritize relationships?

John Jantsch (21:49.294)

Yeah.

Andy Crestodina (22:05.324)

by helping us really prep for this really high stakes conversation. there's a bunch of little uses for AI in there, but yeah, probably every lead should have an appended little sales guide that goes with it with the six questions you should likely ask based on what's happened with them in the news and who you're talking to and what likely challenges are.

John Jantsch (22:24.876)

Yeah. And I think that that's really going to be the key is we'll remove friction where clients want friction removed, right? They want to do their own research. Maybe they want to get their own pricing, you know, things like that. We'll remove that friction, but then we'll get really smart at where do they, where do they actually crave human interaction? You know, not necessarily need it, but, want it. and I think it's that sort of beautiful combination that is going to always be the tight wires.

Andy Crestodina (22:42.328)

and move around.

Andy Crestodina (22:51.944)

I think so. think that's making people feel special, listening, showing them you care. I said it about design a bit ago, certainly in service. I'm not, I'm never going to stop caring and talking to people in my days like today. Eight meetings back to back. Love it. I'll take it. I don't mind a bit. I'm energized by these and conversations just like this one, John.

John Jantsch (23:02.616)

Yeah, awesome.

John Jantsch (23:17.506)

Well, awesome. Well, let's not make it 20 years to the next time. Let's have you back much sooner than that. Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by. Is there anywhere you want to invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work?

Andy Crestodina (23:30.516)

LinkedIn, the blue button says follow, but if you find the menu and go to connect with me and just say, Hey, heard you on duct tape. I'd be more than happy to connect. And then we can, have an interaction and we can prioritize relationships and take care of each other. And that's what this is about.

John Jantsch (23:48.462)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you soon out there on the road.

Andy Crestodina (23:54.21)

Thanks, John.

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Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately

Bold Moves for Future-Ready Marketing: What to Stop Doing Immediately written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

TL;DR

The future of marketing belongs to those who have the courage to stop outdated practices. Cut excessive and generic content, ignore vanity metrics, prioritize authenticity, build trust, let go of comfort zones, use technology wisely, adapt for AI, and focus on community over funnels. Letting go of what’s holding you back creates space for smarter, more impactful marketing.

Table of Contents

• 1. Stop Blasting Audiences with Excess Content and Ads
• 2. Stop Obsessing Over Vanity Metrics and Empty Reach
• 3. Stop Being Generic—Prioritize Authenticity
• 4. Stop Neglecting Consumer Trust and Privacy
• 5. Stop Clinging to Comfort Zones and Old Formulas
• 6. Stop Treating Technology as a Magic Bullet
• 7. Stop Underestimating the AI Revolution—Adapt Instead of Ignore
• 8. Stop Prioritizing Funnels Over Fans
• Conclusion: Make Room for the Bold by Quitting the Old

1. Stop Blasting Audiences with Excess Content and Ads

Why It Matters

The “more is better” approach to content and ads has reached its limit. Consumers are tired of being overwhelmed and are unsubscribing or switching brands to escape the noise. Smart audiences now ignore generic blasts, and most actually want fewer, more relevant communications.

What to Do Instead

• Review your content calendar and remove low-engagement posts or emails.
• Focus on quality over quantity by sending fewer, more meaningful messages.
• Invest more time in understanding what your audience truly values.
• Use AI for insights, but always add a personal, human perspective.
• Run a test by reducing frequency for a month and monitoring engagement rates.

Takeaway: The goal is not constant presence, but memorable impact. Strategize your outreach so every message matters.

2. Stop Obsessing Over Vanity Metrics and Empty Reach

Why It Matters

Chasing numbers like followers, likes, and impressions can feel good but these metrics rarely translate into real business growth. Most digital ads are quickly scrolled past, and fair-weather followers almost never become loyal customers.

What to Do Instead

• Identify metrics that drive real results such as repeat visits, shares, purchases, or referrals.
• Adjust your reporting and team incentives to focus on engagement, not just exposure.
• Use analytics to track meaningful actions, like comments or direct replies.
• Encourage content that sparks genuine conversation or feedback.

Takeaway: Switch your focus from empty reach to true connection. Measure what matters to your business, not your ego.

3. Stop Being Generic—Prioritize Authenticity

Why It Matters

Modern consumers quickly spot canned visuals, recycled taglines, and generic brand messaging. In a world where AI can generate anything, authenticity is your sharpest edge.

What to Do Instead

• Replace clichés and stock images with real stories, faces, and voices from your brand.
• Share behind-the-scenes moments or honest lessons learned.
• Don’t be afraid to use humor, opinion, or a unique point of view.
• Let AI support your research, but ensure every message feels uniquely yours.

Takeaway: The boldest brands are the most authentic. Make sure your marketing sounds and feels like you—not anyone else.

4. Stop Neglecting Consumer Trust and Privacy

Why It Matters

Trust is more valuable than ever. Poor data practices, endless retargeting, and impersonal messaging push people away. When trust is lost, it is rarely regained.

What to Do Instead

• Be clear and transparent about what data you collect and why.
• Give customers control over their information and respect their preferences.
• Review your data collection for compliance and necessity.
• Respond to feedback and reviews, including the negative ones.

Takeaway: Treat every customer like a person, not a datapoint. Make privacy and transparency a core part of your brand promise.

5. Stop Clinging to Comfort Zones and Old Formulas

Why It Matters

If your marketing feels too comfortable, it’s probably not working as well as it could. Sticking with what used to work can leave you behind as the landscape changes.

What to Do Instead

• Review your marketing channels and tactics to see which ones are actually delivering results.
• Retire campaigns that feel safe but stale.
• Encourage your team to brainstorm and pilot new ideas.
• Make it a habit to learn from both successes and failures.

Takeaway: Letting go of the old is the first step towards finding new, more effective approaches.

6. Stop Treating Technology as a Magic Bullet

Why It Matters

No tool or AI feature can make up for a weak strategy. Chasing every new tech trend won’t deliver lasting results.

What to Do Instead

• Focus first on understanding your customer and crafting a meaningful offer.
• Use technology to enhance your strengths, not to mask your weaknesses.
• Regularly assess which tools deliver real value and which are just distractions.
• Remember, sometimes a personal touch outperforms any automation.

Takeaway: Technology should serve your strategy, not the other way around.

7. Stop Underestimating the AI Revolution—Adapt Instead of Ignore

Why It Matters

AI is changing everything from search to customer engagement. Ignoring these changes, or automating without oversight, can put you at a disadvantage.

What to Do Instead

• Identify repetitive tasks that AI can handle and redirect your energy to creativity and relationships.
• Train your team in AI basics and encourage experimentation.
• Always keep a human eye on automated outputs for quality and tone.
• Stay curious and proactive about how AI is changing your customer’s world.

Takeaway: Embrace AI as a partner, not a threat. Balance efficiency with a human touch.

8. Stop Prioritizing Funnels Over Fans

Why It Matters

Focusing only on lead funnels can limit your growth. Building a community of fans leads to deeper loyalty and more powerful word-of-mouth.

What to Do Instead

• Create spaces for your customers to connect with you and each other.
• Highlight your customers’ stories and successes.
• Offer value beyond the sale, like education or support.
• Track and celebrate the growth of your engaged community.

Takeaway: A passionate community is your strongest asset. Focus on making advocates, not just sales.

Conclusion: Make Room for the Bold by Quitting the Old

The future belongs to marketers who know what to stop. Cutting out outdated habits clears the way for smarter, more human, and more impactful marketing. Audit your approach, let go of what’s holding you back, and give yourself space to try what’s truly bold. Progress starts with what you quit.

If you want more actionable checklists or specific examples for your business, just ask.

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The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise

The Four Conversations: Blair Enns on Leading, Pricing, and Selling Expertise written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode: 

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Blair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and a leading authority on selling creative and consulting expertise. Blair shares insights from his new book, The Four Conversations, which distills decades of agency wisdom into a clear roadmap for moving from pitching and price-haggling to confidently leading client relationships. Listeners will discover how to shift from vendor to trusted advisor, raise closing rates, price based on value, and master the four pivotal conversations that define every successful client engagement.

About the Guest

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching and the author of several acclaimed books on agency sales, pricing, and positioning. Over the past two decades, Blair has helped thousands of agencies and consultancies around the world move away from free pitching and price wars toward leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. His latest book, The Four Conversations, offers a practical framework for mastering the most crucial moments in every client relationship.

Actionable Insights

• Most agencies close far fewer deals than they think—often just 25%. Doubling your close rate and raising prices by 20% can dramatically improve profitability.
• The “four conversations” framework: Probative (demonstrate expertise), Qualifying (vet fit for both parties), Value (define value to be created and price accordingly), Closing (help the client select and commit to a path forward).
• Selling expertise is not about convincing or manipulating—it’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.
• True leadership in sales means moving from statements about yourself to questions about the client, and from eagerness for the work to discernment and selectivity.
• Pricing should begin with a value conversation—anchoring fees to outcomes, not just deliverables or time spent.
• Productizing your service delivery is compatible with pricing each client based on value, not a fixed menu.
• To move from vendor to trusted advisor, adopt the “expert’s mantra”: I am the expert, I am the prize, I’m on a mission to help, and I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:16 – The True Cost of Letting Clients Lead
  Blair breaks down the impact of poor sales practices on close rates and pricing power.
• 04:45 – The Four Conversations Model
  An overview of the probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations that shape every client relationship.
• 06:23 – Selling as Guiding, Not Convincing
  Why selling expertise is about facilitating clients’ choices, not talking them into a decision.
• 07:47 – From Proving Brilliance to Asking Questions
  The shift from statements to questions is at the heart of expert selling.
• 13:37 – Value-Based Pricing in Action
  Blair walks through starting the pricing conversation with outcomes, not just deliverables.
• 20:47 – The Expert’s Mantra
  A mindset framework for making the leap from vendor to trusted advisor.

Pulled Quotes

“Selling is not talking people into things. It’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.”
— Blair Enns

“I am the expert, I am the prize. I’m on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.”
— Blair Enns

Resources

• Website: winwithoutpitching.com

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.802)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Blair Enns. He's a leading voice in the creative and consulting agency world, best known as the founder of Win Without Pitching. Over two decades, he's helped thousands of agencies move from pitching and price haggling to confidently leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. We're going to talk about his latest book, The Four Conversations, a new model for selling expertise.

Book distills decades of hard won wisdom into a practical roadmap for navigating the most crucial moments in every client relationship. So Blair, welcome to the show.

Blair Enns (00:40.337)

Thank you, John.

John Jantsch (00:42.85)

So let's get some leverage. How much in your estimation do you think, what do you think the real cost day to day when agencies let clients run the show instead of leading the conversation?

Blair Enns (00:55.611)

What's the real cost of letting clients run the conversation?

John Jantsch (00:58.734)

Yeah, I mean, instead of us, you know, a lot about the four conversations is really providing leadership in the conversation. So I see a lot of agencies that show up and say, what do need? Sure, we do that. And I think that's what really leads to this price haggling, doesn't it?

Blair Enns (01:16.091)

Yeah. So if I start to, I've never contemplated the total cost here, but we could do some math on the fly. The typical agency has a closing ratio of about 25%. I can actually be more specific than that. It's oddly specific at 26%, which seems to be a universal number across all B2B sales. Now that's when we measure it. It's 26%. Self-declared, it's closer to 33%. So an agency will tell you we close one in three proposals.

when we crack open the CRM and look at it, they close one in four. I think the threshold of respectability in a closing ratio is 40%. You should strive to be over 50%. So if you're closing less than 50%, A, you're probably writing too many proposals, B, you're probably doing something wrong in the proposals. So let's say you're closing half as many proposals as you should. So there's a starting point. And then there's pricing. Are you getting, are you commanding,

your fair share of the value that you're helping to create in the typical agency is not. I can't give you a percentage on that, but I would guess it's another 20 % across the board. The typical agency could probably increase their prices by 20%. Now with existing clients, not necessarily. They can raise prices with existing clients on average. It's difficult with larger agencies. We're dealing with procurement.

But if you draw a line in time, this is after today, after you've absorbed this information, you start to sell this way, your average proposal value should climb by 20 % easily. take the size of your firm, add 20 % to the top line, double your closing ratio. That's the cost of poor selling.

John Jantsch (03:05.014)

So how much of that, I might leave myself right into a trap here, but how much of that is marketing and how much of that is sales? So in other words, you and I have written books that comes with, in some cases, perceived trust and perceived authority, expect to pay a premium in a lot of cases. So how much of that is done on the front end and how much of that is done in the sales conversation?

Blair Enns (03:09.383)

Ha ha ha.

Blair Enns (03:28.829)

Well, most of what I just talked about is what happens in the sales conversation, which to me is after the initial interaction. So if we're talking about marketing is to generate leads, that's a whole other ball of wax. Now, depending on who you are in the organization, how it thinks about sales and marketing, in some organizations, some agencies, lead generation can be seen as a sales function.

And in others, it's seen as a marketing function. Typically, it's seen as a bit of both or a specific combination of both in the average firm. The better your marketing goes the saying, the less selling you have to do. But that's an interpretation of that statement. It's really about seeing that statement views selling as lead generation. But there's all this stuff that I just referenced, which is what happens after you begin the conversation with the lead. So there's a whole other

area of improvement to be had under the banner of marketing.

John Jantsch (04:28.942)

Yeah, and it's probably the combination just amplifies everything, right? The combination of both of those being effective amplifies everything. So let's just go right to the title of the book. What are the four conversations and why do they keep happening no matter how seasoned somebody is?

Blair Enns (04:45.349)

Yeah, so the four conversations, this is a model. A model is a view of the world, a way of organizing complexity. All models are wrong. Some are useful. The book opens with that quote. So I'm not saying the sale always happens in a series of four linear and discrete conversations, but it is helpful to think of it that way. So the four conversations and their objective are the probative conversation, where your goal is to prove your expertise to the client and move in their mind from a position of a vendor to the expert.

That's the conversation that happens without your president. Your marketing would be under the domain of the probative conversation. It's a conversation in construct only. It happens through your agents of thought leadership, referral, referrers, and your marketing. And then you have the three person to person conversation that happened after that, which you would think of as the sales conversations. There's the qualifying conversation, which is the vetting conversation. You're vetting the lead to see if this is something worth spending your time on.

There's the value conversation where you're uncovering the value to be created and the share of that value you might command in the form of fees. So you're starting to set not price, but pricing guidance, rough approximate pricing guidance based on the value to be created rather than the cost of your solutions. And then the final conversation is the closing conversation where you help the client commit and select, select and commit to a path forward.

John Jantsch (06:11.224)

You know what I love about as I listen to you talk about all four of those conversations, they're not about like manipulating or getting this thing that you want done. They're really about creating value for both parties, right?

Blair Enns (06:23.109)

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the idea that selling is not talking people into things. I think, you know, we make this distinction or we I make the distinction in the book, you know, between expert and vendor. And you think of your expert self, the way you operate as an expert, you're in your relationships with your clients. So after sale, the way you show up, you're kind of you're an advisor. You facilitate choice. You point out the pros and cons of decisions.

John Jantsch (06:28.59)

Right.

Blair Enns (06:52.061)

You give the client some decisions to make, you point out the pros and cons of those decisions, and I think that's how you should navigate the sale as well.

John Jantsch (06:59.63)

I talked to a lot of agencies that I'm sure you've heard this quite often as well. They feel like they're giving away their expertise, pitching for free, giving consultations to show that they know what they're talking about and really all along the way kind of giving it away. do you get people out of that place of being stuck?

Blair Enns (07:19.121)

Well, there's no short answer to the question of how you get people out of that. You write a book on a model, you get them to read the book and implement the guidance in the book is the short one. But as you point out, it's hard. I myself, I struggle with this a lot. I've for years, it's been the hardest thing for me to go from seeing myself as the person with the answers, the subject matter expert, to the person with the questions. So if you think of how a typical marketer shows up in the sale,

John Jantsch (07:45.294)

Mm.

Blair Enns (07:47.655)

They wanna prove their brilliance. And yeah, we do that in the probative conversation, but that's the conversation that happens without you present. Once you're in a conversation with an individual, instead of trying to prove your brilliance, you should arm yourself with a set of questions. And so in our model of the four conversations, each conversation has a framework or set of frameworks, has a specific objective, which I shared with you, and then a framework or set of frameworks.

for navigating to that objective. Now those frameworks are almost all questions. So the short answer to how is you go from statements about yourself to questions about the client.

John Jantsch (08:29.058)

Well, and those statements often are not just about yourself. They might actually be offering solutions, right? Yeah. Yeah. number two, qualifying. I know that this is not your take on this, but I know a lot of people hear that qualifying and they're thinking, it comes off more like I'm going to see if you qualify to work with me. you know, and it can actually be a little off putting if not done.

Blair Enns (08:35.377)

Free advice, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:56.91)

How do you approach making sure that the client doesn't feel like they're being evaluated?

Blair Enns (09:04.283)

Yeah, I think some people do overplay that idea. So you can take this idea of qualifying and you can put on a spectrum. At one end, there's the client qualifying you. At the other end, there's you qualifying the client. And most of these qualifying conversations, the typical listener wouldn't think of them as a qualifying conversation. They would think of them as a credentials conversation or a credentials meeting. So what does that mean if we put it back into this context of qualifying? It means you're trying to qualify for the client.

The assumption is this is a good fit for you. Now you're trying to prove to them that they're a good fit. And you have to do that and there's a way to do that, but the conversation is all about you first making sure that they are a good fit for you. That implies that you've actually thought about who is a good fit for you. What is your ideal client profile? Who do you want to do business with? Who will you not do business with? How much money do you need somebody to spend? And so,

John Jantsch (09:52.046)

Yeah, yeah.

Blair Enns (10:00.305)

You can have a very business-like conversation using a framework to organize questions around that without coming across like an ass. But in the wrong hands, somebody can overplay that idea and they can make the client feel uncomfortable.

John Jantsch (10:08.257)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:16.151)

You know, one of the things over the years that I've liked to use as a qualifier is there are certain behaviors that the client has or what they believe in terms of what value is and how a solution gets done. And in some cases, we get very good or most people get very good at understanding, this is a problem I can fix well. I know I could do this one. So where does that come into the qualifying, those types of considerations?

Blair Enns (10:43.239)

Well, you have to guard against that. so qualifying is the vetting conversation. There's a tone in the qualifying conversation. It's a tone of discernment. So you're professional, you're clinical, you're, if you're getting really enthusiastic about the opportunity, you're just suppressing that for the time being. And then once you ask your questions and you determine that there is, this is a good fit for you, then you move to the next conversation, the value conversation. You can, your tone of discernment can move to a tone of deep interest. You decide,

John Jantsch (10:51.106)

Yeah.

Blair Enns (11:13.245)

You ask your questions, you get your answers, and you decide, you know what, this is a good fit. And you would say to the client, on the surface, I think this is a really good fit. I can see my team getting very excited about this. I'm not saying I'm getting excited about it. I'm still trying to moderate my enthusiasm to make sure my enthusiasm for the project or the client does not exceed their enthusiasm for me.

John Jantsch (11:23.374)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:36.347)

Can we stick on that for a minute? Why is that an issue?

Blair Enns (11:40.113)

Well, I have in the book what I consider to be the first principle of selling expertise. It's a formula P equals DB over D. I printed on the back of coffee mugs. P stands for your power in the sale. Your power in the sale is a function of your desirability, DB, being greater than your own desire, D. Otherwise stated, whoever wants it the most has the least power in the buy-sell relationship.

You don't extrapolate that to the nth degree and say, therefore, I should seek to maximize my desirability. That's true. That part's true. But you could also infer that to mean I should seek to minimize my expression of desire for the client. that, yeah, no. Yeah, you show up as aloof, disinterested. You don't want that. I'm just saying pay attention to the power dynamics in the relationship and make sure, especially early on,

John Jantsch (12:24.29)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't really, I don't really need this sale. I take it or leave it. Right.

Blair Enns (12:38.713)

actually, throughout, there's no especially early on, but just make sure that your own expression, allow your enthusiasm for the opportunity to rise as high as the clients and try not to exceed it. Because when you exceed it, you clearly give all your power away, your power to do your best work, to command the most profit, to command high prices. Your cost of sale will go up too as your power goes away.

John Jantsch (13:06.604)

Interesting. So let's move to number three. guess it is. You use the phrase value to be created. Is that right? Value to be created. that. Yeah. But, but less about fees and more about the value to be created as part of the equation. So, so do I hear you saying, what we're going to fix for this client is worth a million dollars. That's the value it's going to create for them. So do we base our fee on that? Or do we base our fee on the fact that we know how to do this and we do it

Blair Enns (13:14.129)

the value conversation.

John Jantsch (13:36.28)

officially.

Blair Enns (13:37.277)

So you can base your fee, I'm getting softer on this as the years go by. My previous book, which came out in 2018, is on pricing. It's called Pricing Creativity. And I was probably a bit more of a hard, was pushing harder for value-based pricing. Today, I don't really care how you price. I care if you have a value conversation. A value conversation begins the pricing discussion based on the value to be created. So you come to me or your...

John Jantsch (13:55.694)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (14:03.601)

prospective client and I'm walking you through the simple four-step framework. What do you want John? You tell me what your vision of your desired future state is, what success looks like in the future. And I say this is a great vision. So now I'm leaning in, I'm enthusiastic. Okay, what are the metrics that will measure to prove that you've achieved what you want? And we talk about some KPIs, you give them to me or I pull them out of you. And I say to you, okay, I know what you want, I know what the KPIs are that we'll measure.

John Jantsch (14:17.304)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (14:32.741)

If we hit these metrics, what's the value of that? So if we just keep it to economic value, you give me some numbers, we top line or revenue gains or cost reductions, we translate that into profit. And I say, all right, so if your vision comes true, you hit these metrics, we're gonna create a million dollars a year and net new profit, is that right? And you say, yeah, that sounds about right if everything goes well. Now the fourth and final step is setting pricing guidance. At this point, I haven't thought.

about what I'm actually gonna do. I haven't talked to you about specific solutions. Even if you may have come to me with a specific solution in mind, I put it aside and I've put you into your desired future state. And I've asked you to describe success. And obviously there's a framework around this. And I say to you, if I could help you create this million dollars a year and that new recurring profit, would you pay me X? And in that moment, I'm gonna pull a number out of my nether regions. And I want the number to be so high that you won't pay it, that you walk it down.

And there's some psychology, it's called the anchoring effect and why I do this. But at some point, so if I say, would you pay me a half a million dollars? And you respond with, well, that depends, what would you do for a half a million dollars? I might say, I don't know, I haven't thought about solutions yet. But if I could help you create this million dollars in net new recurring profit, would you pay half a million in one time fees? And that's.

Whether you say yes or no, we're in a conversation on pricing and that conversation has started high. The price is tied to the value to be created is not tied to my solutions. From there, the price can go down. At the end of the day, when I come back with a proposal in the closing conversation, I can price however I want. The important thing is we have started the pricing discussion based on the value to be created, not based on the cost of my solutions.

John Jantsch (16:26.158)

Yeah, and I think that's certainly the path towards getting a prospect or a client to think, I'm investing this money as opposed to I'm spending this money, isn't

Blair Enns (16:36.551)

Correct.

John Jantsch (16:38.668)

So let's talk about the money conversation. I would say that, I mean, you talked to millions of salespeople probably over the years. Isn't that the place that they have the most issue with?

Blair Enns (16:51.325)

I think the value conversation is a pivotal conversation because we are starting to, the client, we uncover a budget if there is one in the qualifying conversation, then we transcend that budget while still acknowledging as part of the framework that the client has a budget and agreeing that we'll come back with a range of solutions and a range of price points. We basically agree on a trade.

I'll show you what I can do for your budget. You allow me to think creatively and expansively about what's the most we can do to help you create this value. And it's going to be a big price. So that's, I love this framework for talking about money. It doesn't make it easy, but when you understand that it's okay for the first number to be so high that the client chokes on it or pushes back and you do this a few times, you realize everybody will survive.

This is not an existential threat. This is just part of the conversation. By the time the conversation ends, you're in agreement that the client will consider options in a certain range. Even if the client says, listen, I don't have the authority to spend, let's say I anchored at 500 and we ended up at 250 and then you said, well, my budget's 50. So I've got a range of 50 to 250. Even if you don't have the authority to spend 250 in that moment.

I'll extract from you an understanding that, okay, I'm gonna put some options in front of you that are gonna be beyond your budget. And if you're really excited about them, it's your prerogative. But then I would invite you to invite the other people to the table who would be required to fund this. you are always in, you the buyer, you're always in control. You've stated to me that you have a budget. I've shown what I'm going to do for that budget. In exchange, you're letting me push you to think bigger, to think about investing more.

And that's a pretty fair trade. You practice this a few times, it becomes fairly intuitive to you.

John Jantsch (18:47.628)

You know, it's been come, see very commonplace. seems like the last few years for agencies to kind of offer package services. So this much deliverable for this price. it sounds to me, when I hear you say that conversation, you're really getting completely out of that, mold and really the idea of, of, I'm going to actually bring you something really innovative that you hadn't even thought about when you developed your budget. Automatically you're providing leadership instead of just.

execution, right?

Blair Enns (19:18.845)

That's true, but it's not antithetical to productizing your services either. So in my last two books, I've talked about productization and in pricing creativity, I was pretty strongly anti-productizing for agencies. When I wrote the four conversations, which I finished last year,

John Jantsch (19:38.828)

Mm-hmm.

Blair Enns (19:46.969)

I was pretty neutral on it. And I have a pretty good framework in the book for deciding, you standardize or customize your delivery model, package your services or customize and your pricing? What I mean by that is if you have packages, do you price the packages or do you price the client? And as time goes on, I'm actually increasingly in favor of product standardizing your delivery. So you have packages, but reserving the right to price the client, which is the first rule.

of in my book, Pricing Creativity, price the client, not the product, not the service.

John Jantsch (20:23.448)

So I know from many conversations I've had this, know, anytime I say the same thing of you want to move from vendor to trusted advisor, you know, a lot of lights go on, right? It's like, yes, that's exactly what I want to do. So for the listeners who are stuck in that mindset right now, is there, is there a shift or a daily habit that you would recommend that might make, help people make that leap or at least make it stick?

Blair Enns (20:47.285)

it's a great question. there is in the book, there's I guess it's a principle, but it's really a framework for getting into the experts mindset. It's called the experts mantra. And it's a four line statement that you repeat to yourself before you log into the conversation, before you show up for the whether it's done remotely or in person before you enter the conversation. Just four statements that you repeat yourself.

They can benefit from a little customization, but I'll give them to you here. I am the expert, I am the prize. I'm on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow and that's okay. And we can unpack each of those four sentences and they're all rooted in something, but it's like, I am the expert, I'm the prize to be won here. I'm on a mission to lead. If you don't let me lead in the sale, you will not let me lead in the engagement. So this is a test of whether or not we can work together.

Yeah, and then the last one of all will not follow is just letting go of the outcomes and focusing on the process.

John Jantsch (21:48.781)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:52.27)

Yeah,

Yeah, I love that. love that. Well, Blair, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place for you to invite people to find out more about your work and obviously your books or connect with you?

Blair Enns (22:07.089)

Yeah, thanks John, I've enjoyed it. They can reach me in all of my work at winwithoutpitching.com.

John Jantsch (22:13.611)

Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Blair Enns (22:18.685)

Thank you.

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How AI Is Revolutionizing PR and SEO: Real-World Strategies with Jon Mest of JustReachOut.io

How AI Is Revolutionizing PR and SEO: Real-World Strategies with Jon Mest of JustReachOut.io written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes Jon Mest, founder of JustReachOut.io and ChatRank.ai, to break down the evolving relationship between AI, public relations, and SEO. Jon shares how AI is shifting the landscape for marketers, agencies, and entrepreneurs, moving effective outreach away from mass automation and toward authentic, human-driven storytelling. The conversation covers why PR is making a comeback, how AI-powered answer engines like ChatGPT and Google Overviews are changing what it means to “rank,” and what practical steps brands should take to get found—and trusted—in a noisy digital world.

Guest Bio

Jon Mest is the founder of JustReachOut.io, a platform empowering entrepreneurs, agencies, and consultants to land media coverage by pitching journalists directly, and ChatRank.ai, a solution for AI-driven SEO visibility. With over a decade of hands-on experience in PR and search, Jon has helped thousands of marketers simplify their outreach and keep SEO rooted in what actually works—enabling brands to tell authentic stories that resonate, earn trust, and drive results.

Key Takeaways

• AI is a powerful tool to guide, not replace, human-driven PR and SEO. The best results come when AI augments authentic outreach, not automates it at scale.
• Traditional PR—authentic storytelling, earned media, micro-influencer outreach—is regaining importance as search engines and answer engines prioritize authority, expertise, and credible citations.
• AI-powered answer engines (like ChatGPT and Google’s AI Overviews) are changing the rules for SEO. Brands now need to be hyper-specific and authoritative on their niche to get surfaced in high-intent results.
• Showing up in AI overviews is the new “number one spot”—but it requires a combination of strong, relevant content and third-party validation through PR and backlinks.
• Personalization and relevance are non-negotiable in modern outreach. Mass, generic pitches are filtered out, while targeted, story-driven pitches cut through the noise.
• The “hook” in your pitch or subject line is crucial. Journalists and influencers need a compelling, unique reason to pay attention—and proprietary data or exclusive stories make you stand out.
• Social proof is still powerful: smaller wins with niche or local publications can build a track record that leads to coverage in larger, national outlets.
• Brands should amplify and repurpose earned media where their audience is—whether it’s podcasts, trade journals, or niche blogs—rather than chasing only big-name coverage.

Great Moments & Timestamps

• 00:00 – John introduces Jon Mest, JustReachOut.io, and ChatRank.ai
• 00:52 – Jon explains how AI can empower, not replace, authentic PR and SEO
• 02:28 – Why PR is making a comeback in an AI-driven SEO world
• 05:20 – The story behind ChatRank.ai and adapting to Google’s AI Overviews
• 07:54 – What it takes for brands to get featured in answer engines and AI overviews
• 10:01 – Why specific, authoritative content wins in both search and answer engines
• 12:02 – The biggest mistakes (and best practices) in pitching journalists today
• 13:46 – Why personalization is crucial—and mass pitching doesn’t work
• 14:56 – The power of a strong “hook” and building ongoing media relationships
• 16:25 – How social proof and stepping-stone coverage help brands earn bigger features
• 18:51 – Why amplifying coverage where your audience lives matters more than chasing broad reach
• 20:17 – Where to find Jon Mest, JustReachOut.io, and ChatRank.ai

Pulled Quotes

“AI is an amazing tool to help guide the human-driven marketing approach. But you, the human, have to go in there and tell your story the right way.”

“Personalization and authenticity win—mass, generic pitches just get filtered out.”

“Showing up in AI overviews is the new number one spot…but you have to be hyper-specific, authoritative, and tell a story your audience cares about.”

Resources & Links

• JustReachOut.io – AI-powered PR and outreach platform
• ChatRank.ai – AI-driven SEO visibility platform

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How to Stay Visible in the AI Search Era

How to Stay Visible in the AI Search Era written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed myself—John Jantsch—on a topic that’s reshaping the foundation of online marketing: search visibility in an era dominated by AI search, zero click searches, and evolving Google search behaviors.

Search engine optimization (SEO) is no longer about simply ranking for keywords. As I explain in this solo episode, we’re witnessing a major shift from traditional SEO to what I now call search visibility—your brand’s presence across the entire digital ecosystem, from featured snippets and branded SERPs, to Google Business profiles and authoritative content that aligns with E-E-A-T principles. In a world where AI overviews often replace the need to click through to your website, your strategy must evolve beyond keywords and clicks.

Key Takeaways

• SEO is now about search visibility, not just rankings—brands must appear in multiple places where answers are delivered.

• AI search and zero click searches mean that most Google users get what they need without clicking; visibility across multiple platforms is critical.

• Google is now an answer engine, not just a search engine—your content should be structured to serve direct answers.

• The rise of E-E-A-T (Experience, Expertise, Authoritativeness, Trustworthiness) is a signal that content trust signals matter more than ever.

• Create structured content like FAQ sections, TLDR summaries, and hub pages to increase your chances of being featured in AI answers and featured snippets.

• Local SEO still matters—optimize your Google Business profile regularly as a publishing platform for increased exposure.

• Refreshing old content boosts content freshness signals that can improve your visibility in the knowledge graph and elsewhere.

• Focus on content strategy that prioritizes quality, experience-driven stories, and unique insights—not generic blog posts generated by AI.

• Don’t chase head terms. Focus instead on long-tail queries and content formats that meet user intent more directly.

Chapters:

• 00:09 Opening
• 00:58 Evolution of Search Engine Optimization
• 03:01 The Current State of Search
• 03:41 Focus on Search Visibility Instead of Rank
• 06:13 How to Demonstrate EEAT
• 09:04 Audit Your Content Gaps
• 10:07 Help Pages
• 11:46 FAQ Pages and Trust Elements
• 13:03 Refreshing Your Content
• 13:41 Utilize Your Google Business Page
• 14:35 Find Out How AI Is Sourcing Information
• 15:42 Common Mistakes

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.506)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and I'm doing a solo show. I'm going to talk about search engine optimization or as I've started to call it search visibility because the game has changed. Now, the first question you might be asking yourself is why is John wearing a cowboy hat? Those of you that are on the video version, I'm wearing a Stetson open road. this is the straw version in the cognac.

color is my favorite summer hat. just decided it's Friday when I'm recording this. just decided to put it on and wear it for the show. My grandfather and father had this style hat and a number of US presidents over the years chose this as their primary hat as well. So Stetson Open Road, there you have the story. All right. As I said, I'm going to talk about search engine optimization, what we've always long called, not always.

Believe it or not, a 20 year history with something called search engine optimization, which is really moving completely. There's been lots of changes over the years, different algorithms, different things, different search engines come along. But this is a fundamental shift in how that tactic or approach really is going to be applied going forward. And what what it actually is even going to mean to business and website owners going forward as well.

So I thought I would start with, before I jump into like eat and generative AI and AI overviews and things, just do like a 30 second kind of timeline on search. Well, I started actually playing around with search in 1998. And really, again, was my first website and it was, do we rank?

and get on page one, you know, what are the things we need to do? I won't go into all what all those things were, but most of them are not relevant today. At least, you know, that was in the early days of search engines. They were little infants and they were, you know, the game was to trick them into putting your stuff on page one. That lasted till about 2010. And then, you know, the search engines just got more and more complex and more and more, you know,

John Jantsch (02:21.142)

ability to understand what a page really was about rather than what we wanted them to think it was about. And so now you start having mobile be part of the deal. You've got the local search packs. You've got answer boxes starting to show up about, you know, from 2010 to 2016, roll up to about 2017. And now all of sudden voice search is a factor featured snippets become a factor.

near me becomes a factor also searched for. So a lot of things just keep getting injected. And of course, all the while the ad units and how they display all over the page, you know, are changing as well. Kind of really shifting what even ranking, you know, on page one even meant anymore. So I guess fast forward to today, 2024 or so it happened, you know, AI overviews.

Um, SGE from Google, 60 % of, of, of us Google searches ending with no click at all, according to search engine land, uh, the, uh, the infamous zero click searches, uh, instead of, you know, a list of 10 links on a page. Um, you know, we're now to the point where maybe you get featured as a source in an AI answer and hope that that generates a click, but,

six to seven times out of 10 today. That search is just gonna end in somebody getting the answer or getting the information that they wanted.

What I'm talking about now is this idea of a complete mindset shift away from search and optimization, away from trying to rank for keywords and more about this idea of search visibility. It's kind of your brand's share of the answers, the mentions, the knowledge panel, real estate, local pack slots.

John Jantsch (04:19.086)

really clicks for everywhere that, um, that, that a prospect looks, I think that's what we have to do today. So, you know, chasing one phrase or two phrases or something. mean, it's really going to have very, very little value. Um, unless it's just a very high intent phrase that, uh, if somebody searches that they're not looking for an answer, they're looking to purchase. Um, those are really going to be the, um, you know, the, the, the highly sought after, guess, um, types of searches.

So I think instead of, of thinking now in terms of like position ranking or impressions, it's really going to be this, this whole collection. And this is going to be hard for people to measure, but this whole collection of like branded SERP coverage, is really going to be the, you know, the, example. I use a case, a local dentist publishes like does whitening hurt. they have an FAQ short vid, TikTok video, Google business posts, a patient story.

you know, now that now they have the chance to actually own the FAQ snippet for that, maybe the local, local rank, map pack for that, maybe a YouTube carousel. mean, so that's how I think we have to start thinking about these is, know, there's no more. There's no more, you know, I want to show up on for this, you know, key search is it's how do I put myself into this idea of answers? And in fact, you know, a lot of people are actually calling,

you know, not even calling them search engines anymore. They're really answer engines. And the consumer behavior, you know, has changed so dramatically. Search behavior has changed so dramatically. You know, we were all very conditioned to type in six, eight words for what we were looking for and then hoping or maybe refining that search if we didn't find what we were hoping for. But now we can actually, instead of typing in, you know, plumbing contractor in my town, you know, now it's

plumbing contractor with 24 hour service, more than 4.7 star reviews within two miles from me, whatever. mean, you can type that long search in now and you're going to get that very specific, in most cases, you're gonna get that very specific result returned to you that you were able to kind of custom tailor to what you wanted rather than saying, okay, Google, give me what you think I want.

John Jantsch (06:49.39)

One of the things that, and I have to set this up a little bit, that we have to start thinking about when it comes to our content, you know, writing the 101, the how to blog content. And many people are finding that they're losing all the search traffic that used to come for that because why would they send them to your page? They can answer that very easily because it was just basic information to begin with.

you're wasting your time. If you continue down that path of just creating the 700 words on blah, blah, blah. very generic. And the bad thing is of course AI makes that really easy to do. You can, you can spin out 10 of those a day now, without really much sweat, it's, it's practically useless unless you are in just such a niche category that nobody else is trying to create content around it. It's practically worthless. So Google has this new

No, fairly new couple of years, acronym called EAT. And there's two E's in there. So E-E-A-T. And forgive me if you know all about this, but I'll explain it in very basic terms for those who may not understand it. But the idea behind it is that they want to see not just expertise. That's one of the E's, but they want to see experience. Have you actually done what you're talking about?

They want to see authoritativeness. That's the, the other a, or I mean, that's the a. So they measure that by, know, are you getting links mentioned, you know, are you in local press? I mean, are you appearing in industry lists? So they're measuring like, are you an authority on this thing that you're talking about? So experience, expertise, authority, and then the last one is trustworthiness. are there signals, of trust, warranties, refund policies, secure checkout badges.

real contact info. mean, all those kinds of things go into the mix as well. So what we have to do, I think, is it's no longer enough to write this article about how to do something. You have to actually have a case study in there. You have to have examples of maybe you doing it in actual real time or behind the scenes.

John Jantsch (09:02.603)

So that it's very clear that that you're not just talking about this. This is something that you do. This is something you're an expert on. This is something somebody can trust for you to do for their business.

John Jantsch (09:16.844)

So in March, 2024, I'm reading a stat here. Knowledge graph update extended each signals by 38 % to really surface credible people and brands again, according to search engine land. that certainly signals that this is not going away. I mean, that this is going to be a significant piece as well. So how do you compete in an eat world, in an AI world?

In a world where really the need for producing content is still there. mean consumers still need the information So now it's a matter of you know, how do we how do we stay visible so that we can get them the opportunity even to get them that information? first thing is There's five step plan here, right? Okay. Number one audit your content gaps. So

Export all of your site URLs. List the top 25 customer questions and use Google Search Console. Again, what we're trying to do is find how can we become an answer engine? So take a lot of your content. And again, this is a place where some of the AI tools are really good at this. You've written good, useful content. How could it be better? How could it answer more questions? How could you add FAQs?

to the end of all of your service pages. How could you add a table of contents to your long form content? How could you add a description box? Some people call it too long, didn't read TLDR, you've probably seen that. How can you add that at the top of your content so that these...

They're not really search engine spiders, but so that the AI tools that are going out there and trying to surface good sources for content can have a very quick view of what it's about. It gets very user friendly. It's very structured in a way that shows kind of the hierarchical structure.

John Jantsch (11:24.718)

I have for years been talking about this thing called hub pages. Um, and the idea behind that is that if you write about, I use an example, if you're a kitchen remodeler and you've got a whole bunch of blog posts about various aspects of remodeling a kitchen. Um, what if you turn that instead of just having them randomly placed on a blog, uh, out there in the ether, what if you turn that into a kitchen, uh, the ultimate guide to remodeling a kitchen and you took all of your content that you've written over the years.

And you placed it on that page. don't mean physically all of it on that page, but at least structure it in such a way that somebody can jump around to how to pick countertops, how to pick cabinets, how to pick finishes, um, how to pick lighting. And then those all, uh, you know, kind of becomes a playlist for anybody who's thinking about, uh, designing, um, or remodeling a kitchen. So we've been talking about that for, I would say at least eight or 10 years.

and the good news is it was a very effective SEO tactic. mean, it, as soon as we would build those for people, it would immediately change, how, how Google viewed their website, but it's also very user friendly. Somebody comes to that hub page and they want, they are interested in information. It's like, here's the whole guide, you know, on what I'm trying to do rather than I just found one, you know, I went out and randomly searched and found one, one blog post on something. So the, the, you know, the,

Again, doubly good news is that those pages really are highly rewarded in an AI world as well. So think about your top three or four services, your top three or four products, your top three or four things that your company does. And think about ways that you could create a very useful guide or a hub page around those and collect it. It's really, in some ways, it's the same content. You've just structured it dramatically different. Boy.

FAQs, and again, in an answer engine world, having answers to the questions that people ask is a clearly makes a lot of sense. It's also been a very useful piece of content anyway, but now really being rewarded in this answer engine world. So every single one of your service pages, every single one of your product pages, even your About Us page now, I think should actually, whether it's structured as a Q &A, or just has an FAQ section,

John Jantsch (13:42.826)

at the bottom of it and you know, pay some attention to the questions you're being asked. Again, the AI tools are pretty good at that surfacing, you know, common questions around things, but you might think in terms of even some of the questions that you're not being asked necessarily, but you should be people should be paying attention to so you can use that as an opportunity to educate around like why you and what you know, what you do that's different than competitors, for example, that they might not actually be asking about.

You know, monthly case studies, you know, measurable results, quotes from customers, those kind of trust elements, even, you know, badges that, that symbolize that you're in professional organizations and things that you've achieved certain certifications. mean, those, you know, the more we can double down on, on just proving that we do what we say, really quite frankly, the better. and then the last piece of the puzzle is.

John Jantsch (14:43.128)

How can you keep this fresh? So, what I'm telling people, and I need to do this myself as well, is we've got reams and reams of content that we wrote years ago. it needs to be freshened up. In fact, about every quarter, you ought to make a goal of saying, Hey, I've got these five blog posts that, know, are decent blog posts. How could I freshen them up, add more links, add more experience, add more proof.

in these, maybe I can structure them, you know, with a table of contents in that TLDR, maybe I could add FAQs to them. You will be highly rewarded for for refreshing that content. And I would last thing I would say is. Start thinking, and this is particularly true for local businesses, not as much for somebody who's really more of a national scale, but that Google business page, think of it as another

publishing platform. Now you don't own that platform, of course, but you have a lot of leeway and how optimized it is all the photos, the videos that you can add there, all the service descriptions you can add there. And you can post there. I would be taking again, in some cases daily if you've got a lot of content, but certainly weekly, create a Google or post in your Google Business page that can come from

can be just a shortened version of something that you've written, and published, you know, years ago, but you're giving it a new place, a new home. And again, it's just going to add all up to the soup of, know, how you get noted or, or quoted as a valuable source. The other thing I would tell you to do is to do a bunch of searches, in some of the AI tools that there were searches you'd love to show up in, you'd love to win. Now, hopefully you show up in front of those. So.

I use my kitchen contractor, remodeling contractor. So best kitchen remodeling contractor in X city would be a link that or something that they'd want to really show up for. Right. And take note of who shows up. That's important. But also one of the things the AI tools do is they tell you the sources that they went to, to, to make that determination. And in some cases, these are directories in some cases, you know,

John Jantsch (17:03.63)

common in the remodeling industry is one called house, that, they actually got a lot of that information from. So if you're not participating in any of those sources or you don't even have a listing in a directory as obscure as it may sound, there's your checklist of some things that you probably need to add to, what you do to get in those directories or to start participating in, you know, a Quora or a Reddit or a house, dependent upon,

you know, the industry that you're in. So, all right, a couple of common mistakes. Stop obsessing over a handful of head keywords. It just doesn't matter anymore. Don't write for algorithms. I think this has always been true. Think in terms of the human question behind any query that somebody is asking. We use a tool called Answer the Public. I highly recommend that you go there and...

If you're, if you're at a loss for what questions people are asking in your industry, that can be a great resource for that. Frankly, the AI tools are pretty good at it. They can surface what questions people are asking in, certain industries. You can't set and forget your website. You know, if I go and I look and there's your last blog post was 2022. We probably got some work to do. This is something that.

You just need to make it a weekly, monthly, quarterly plan that you're going to do X, Y, and Z and just commit to doing it. don't obsess over all the tools. mean, don't go down the rabbit hole. mean, Structured schema is important. there are plugins that, that can actually do that. So that when you write FAQs, the, underlying code, tells Google or tells the.

Whoever's visiting your website, this is an FAQ section. So, you know, spend some time on that part. Don't over obsess about, you know, over engineering tools on this. So here's what I would say. If you've got some ideas today, pick one. If you don't have any FAQs, that's where I would start. If you don't have any case studies, I would certainly think in terms of that.

John Jantsch (19:23.666)

if you haven't visited your Google business profile, I would highly recommend that you think in terms of your strategy there. pick, pick one of the things that, that, I mentioned here today and just start working away at it. mean, don't, don't listen to all the gloom and doom and look at your Google analytics and say, my traffic search your traffic's down because

there's a good chance that a lot of that search traffic wasn't that meaningful. Anyway, it was somebody looking for that how to article. They were not actually looking for your product or service. So search visibility being seen where people go to get their information, being seen as an answer engine, as opposed to an information engine is how we have to change the mindset. So if you got value, hopefully you will subscribe either to the YouTube channel or to the podcast itself.

Love those reviews on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, share the interview, share this episode with, one business owner who needs a little marketing clarity, who would like a little, simple, effective and affordable, good old duct tape marketing practical advice. All right. That's it for today. Thanks for tuning in. Hopefully I'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

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