Stop Solving the Wrong Problems in Your Business

Stop Solving the Wrong Problems in Your Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch sits down with entrepreneur, author, and business coach Kevin St.Clergy to unpack the concept of “blind blaming”—a hidden pattern that causes leaders to misdiagnose problems and stall growth.

Kevin shares a powerful personal story that led to the discovery of blind blaming and explains how this phenomenon shows up in business, particularly when leaders default to blaming marketing, teams, or external factors instead of identifying root causes. The conversation dives into cognitive biases, the importance of reflection, and why many entrepreneurs stay stuck despite working harder than ever.

Listeners will learn Kevin’s RCD Method (Reflect, Connect, Decide), how to uncover hidden bottlenecks, and why transformation—not tactics—is the future of business growth. This episode is especially valuable for entrepreneurs, agency owners, and leaders who feel stuck despite putting in significant effort.

Guest Bio: Kevin St.Clergy

Kevin D. St.Clergy is an entrepreneur, speaker, mentor, and author of Beyond Blind Blaming: Stop Solving the Wrong Problems and Instantly Unlock Results. After successfully building and exiting his own marketing agency, Kevin now helps business owners and leaders identify hidden assumptions, mindset blocks, and misdiagnosed problems that limit growth. His work focuses on transforming leaders by addressing root causes rather than surface-level symptoms.

Key Takeaways

1. Most Leaders Are Solving the Wrong Problems

Blind blaming occurs when individuals assign fault to the most obvious or convenient cause—often without verifying if it’s accurate. This leads to repeated failure despite increased effort.

2. Cognitive Biases Drive Misdiagnosis

• Availability Bias: The first explanation that comes to mind becomes the assumed truth.
• Confirmation Bias: Leaders then seek evidence to prove that assumption correct.
• Result: Time and energy are wasted on the wrong solutions.

3. The RCD Method for Breakthroughs

• Reflect: Ask, “Is there something I’m not seeing?”
• Connect: Seek outside perspectives (coaches, mentors, masterminds).
• Decide: Take decisive action once clarity is reached.

4. More Leads Isn’t Always the Problem

Many businesses blame marketing when the real issue lies in:

• Poor sales processes
• Missed calls
• Weak customer experience

5. Transformation Beats Transaction

Modern clients don’t want more services—they want outcomes. Businesses that shift from transactional services to transformational partnerships see higher retention and growth.

6. Mindset Shapes Business Outcomes

Limiting beliefs (e.g., “I’ll never be that successful”) directly impact business performance. Growth often starts with expanding what leaders believe is possible.

7. Slowing Down Is a Growth Strategy

High-performing entrepreneurs often avoid reflection. Scheduling dedicated thinking time is essential for identifying root problems and making better decisions.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

00:01 – Introduction to “blind blaming” and why leaders get stuck
01:08 – Kevin’s baseball story that inspired the concept
02:44 – Real-world example: businesses blaming marketing incorrectly
03:36 – Introduction to the RCD Method
05:12 – Why outside perspectives are critical for growth
06:18 – The power of making decisive choices (MFD concept)
06:55 – Why slowing down leads to better results
09:25 – Recognizing blind blaming through language and mindset
11:39 – The three fatal flaws: availability, confirmation, and misdirected focus
13:47 – Transitioning from marketing agency to business growth partner
15:01 – Strategy-first approach and becoming a trusted advisor
17:18 – Diagnosing real business problems beyond surface assumptions
18:58 – Why clients crave transformation, not services
20:16 – Hidden personal factors (like health) impacting business performance

Notable Quotes

“Blind blaming is when we blame something completely out of our control—or something that isn’t even the real problem.”

“If you keep solving the same problem over and over again and getting the same results, you’re probably solving the wrong problem.”

“People don’t want more marketing—they want more money, more growth, and more impact.”

“Build the business owner that builds the business.”

“Transformation beats transaction every time.”

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:01.668)

So what if the reason so many leaders stay stuck is not that they're not working hard enough, but that they keep getting very good at solving the wrong problems. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Kevin D. St. Clergy. He's an entrepreneur, speaker, mentor, and author of Beyond Blind Blaming. Stop solving the wrong problems and instantly unlock results. After building and exiting his own company,

Kevin's focus is work on helping entrepreneurs and leaders uncover the hidden assumptions, mindset blocks, and false diagnoses that keep them stuck. So, Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (00:42.382)

Thanks, John. Appreciate you having me.

John Jantsch (00:44.122)

So the term, I want to start with, as I often do, words out of the title, the term blind blaming is, doing a lot of work here. How would you define it? You know, I'm imagining one of my business owners listening to this, sitting at a stoplight right now, wondering why their numbers are flat. So for them, how would you define the term blind blaming?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (01:08.834)

Now I'll start with the story. It's the origin story that everybody likes. I'll be quick. But when I was 10 years old, I was a phenomenal baseball player at a batting average of five 50. And for those of you listening, five 50 is epic. It's great. and people noticed I was going to bat every other time I went to bat Babe Ruth and his hayday three 94, just to give you an example.

so my dad and I went to work. worked with me on my mindset. I mean, I was young, but I love baseball and, we had a buddy who was actually used to coach for the Dodgers who was helping me with my swing in the off season. We practiced every day. And the next season I stood up and I was ready, but something was different because I started swinging and missing. In fact, I missed every time I went to bat for the entire next season. I literally went from here to zero and you probably guess what I heard from the stands. Come on, kid, keep your head in the game, play to win this time. And then can probably really imagine what my dad would give me lectures on on the way home.

John Jantsch (01:50.298)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (01:56.552)

about how bad my attitude was and that's the biggest problem who by the way still thinks that's what it was back then even though he's read the book. But what we found was two weeks after I quit because I'd had enough of the abuse and eventually started blaming myself thinking I'm just not right for this game I quit baseball and I went to a fluke eye exam we figure out what the real problem was I just couldn't see the ball.

Doctor said, sorry, kids practically blind without glasses. And here's the real problem, the adults in my life for that two year stint never stopped blaming me for something that was completely out of my control. And that's what we call blind blaming. And I see it in business, I see it in relationships, I see it everywhere. We all go through it. So for people that are down on their business, they immediately start thinking of things like, well, it must be my marketing, which I know you've taught for years. And a lot of times it's not their marketing, they're just not answering the damn phone when people call.

John Jantsch (02:44.058)

Yeah. It's interesting how many times I've run into that, you know, that exact scenario. It's like, you know, we're just not getting enough leads and, we do call tracking and things like that. And we were like, yeah, you are. We've listened to the phone calls. You know, that's not really the issue, so how does, let's start there. Well, there's, mean, I can go a lot of directions, but since we went there, how like,

Kevin D. St.Clergy (02:56.929)

Yep.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:11.938)

If you're working with a client, you're working with a business and you can clearly see that they're blaming the wrong things for the results that you're bringing. mean, how do you circumvent that? How do you change direction with that? How do you help them recognize that they're looking at the wrong? And it's rampant. mean, perfectionism is an example of blind blaming, I think, a lot of times.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:31.766)

It's rampant. yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:36.812)

Yeah. Well, the book's broken into three sections on purpose. It's awareness. So I'm finding that once people start reading about blind blaming, and they're more aware of it, then it starts to make sense.

John Jantsch (03:42.883)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:46.383)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (03:48.342)

Then we teach them the RCD method, which is how they get past blind blaming. It's very simple, but remember simple doesn't always mean easy, but it's simply reflect. RCD stands for reflect. Is there something else going on that I can't see? You've got to learn to ask yourself that question because if you keep solving the same problem over and over again and you're not getting any different results, that's where we lead to insanity. But that's what we go through as small business owners. And even when you get really big like we did with our agency, we had 450 clients with 900 locations, Sean. So I have plenty of scars of people like

I don't think your service is working. I'm really I'm showing 22 leads last month from your call tracking number Yeah, but we only scheduled two. I was like, well, that's not my fault That's blind blaming so But here's where I think people fall down because they'll get their team together and say what do you guys think it is? And they're all in that sphere of influence and everybody else says what must be marketing. It's certainly not us as salespeople It's got to be the marketing. I just don't have enough leads and the leads are generating their crap

So connect is the C stage. You have to connect with an outside source, a mentor, a coach. I like paid coaches. I've had one for 20 years. Just got a new one that's kind of up in the next level because I want to get the nine figures here pretty quick. So I've just needed a coach that's already there. And then I also have mastermind groups. Those are some of my favorite ways to learn. I know you've been part of them. I think you've led them in the past. And I think when you do that, these people can see what you can't see because they're outside of that sphere of influence. You're not tied down with your successes and your failures.

John Jantsch (05:11.29)

Yes, yes.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (05:12.181)

And finally, once you know what it is, this is where D comes in. You got to decide to do something different. In fact, it was pretty cool because.

I was a little worried about this in the chapter because it does use the F word and even Jack Canfield, he's only the second guy I read the book. He's like, man, I even love your effing part. And I'm like, my God, I just got Jack Canfield to say the F word on video, but it's MFD make an effing decision. Because once you know what it is, I see a lot of people are like, no, maybe not. Let's go back and review this again. Do something. And that's a great story. Cause when we came up with this, it was actually one of my clients. She was debating on whether to go with one or two loans to double her business. And she's like, Kevin, what do you think I should do? And I just told her straight up.

up, Kayla, I think you need to make an effing decision. But I didn't say effing. I've known her well enough. I helped her start a business seven years ago. And she's like, okay, okay, she comes back a month later. And I always like to start coaching calls off these days with what's going well. And she's like, Kevin, I'm MFDing all over the place. You changed my life. Even my husband's noticed and we're doing things. We got the loan. We bought the business. We've doubled the size. We're doing great. I'm like, MFD, what are you talking about? She's like, make an effing decision. What you told me to do on the last call. I'm doing it. And I was like, Kayla, do you mind if I use that in my book? Because I love that.

John Jantsch (06:16.378)

Hmm.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (06:18.018)

And that has turned out to be the biggest thing I was worried about has turned out to be the thing that people mentioned or remember the most. Cause they'll come up to my booth after a talk and say, man, I love the MFD part. You're right. I've got to make some decisions and make some mistakes.

John Jantsch (06:30.276)

So how you think about the entrepreneur, mean, there's more to get done in a day, every day, seemingly than they possibly can. So, you know, they get really wired for go, go, go, go. In some ways you're saying, wait a minute, slowing down is actually a more aggressive approach than, just constantly going at full tilt. How do you get people who recognize that, you know, that our part? Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (06:55.968)

I do a schedule audit and I see do they like for me 5 to 5 30 a.m. I get up early I didn't used to because I worked in a bar all through grad school but now I get up and from 5 to 5 30 is my quiet time I grab a cup of coffee I do not look at a screen and I just journal and try to come up with ideas and I can see it on their calendar when they're working six days a week and trying to see customers or patients whoever you're working with because they keep losing people and they don't give them some they don't give themselves time to think

John Jantsch (07:16.312)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:24.78)

Right. How do you get them to do that? How do you get them to do that? That's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (07:25.87)

And so I make them, well, I make them schedule the time. Just like yesterday, we had a client, I'm like, where's your admin time? He's like, well, I've got administrative assistant. I didn't mean for her, when are you working on your marketing? She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, wrong answer.

John Jantsch (07:39.226)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (07:41.934)

So at the end of the call, we had her physically book these two Fridays in a row that she was gonna take four hours to work on this. And she's so excited, because then she's like, well, what do I do? So we had to actually lay out what she needs to do. So first you gotta schedule the time. What gets scheduled gets done. Then you need a personal assistant to protect you from yourself, John. This is like Christina Cann, who I think you interacted with, she booked this.

John Jantsch (07:57.988)

day.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:04.909)

Christina's constantly protective for myself because I say hey booker there. No, that's your time to work on marketing for us to keep the company going I'll find another space for that person So a lot of times I'll find entrepreneurs who are just GSD getting us done and they're not focusing on time for themselves nor do they have a personal assistant and that's usually one of the first hires that I have people do when they're a solopreneur

John Jantsch (08:27.268)

Yeah. And, know, for years I've, I actually just blocked that time out every week, that I'm going to do, you know, cause there's a lot of things that you actually, you can't get done between, you know, podcast calls, right? I mean, there's, need that three hour ramp, if you're going to do it. And so I've, I've just had that on my calendar and, know, the nice thing is you can't schedule over it. You know, other people can't schedule over it.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:29.357)

.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:41.355)

Right. Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (08:51.757)

No, and I like, yeah, I agree. And I like having breaks. mean, Christina is really good about a 10 a.m. break from 10 to 10 30. That's my walk and my snack from 12 to one. I do take a lunch. I didn't used to take lunches. I worked through it. Just power through as a mistake. 30 minutes at three o'clock to three 30. And I usually wrap up my day between two and two and three o'clock these days because I start pretty early.

John Jantsch (09:06.967)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:13.427)

Yeah, same here. So when you're working with a client, have you started to recognize specific patterns of language particularly that kind of tip you off that like, this one's in blind blaming mode?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:16.077)

.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:25.613)

Yeah, it's the stories they're telling themselves. And I'll give you a great example of somebody recently. She's like, I can't wait to work with you. She was really excited. It our first call. We had a great interview. And she's like, was like, what do you think your biggest challenge is? When we got to that point, she says, well, I'll never be as big as you, but my biggest problem is marketing. And I said, wait a minute, let's stop. Let's go back. It's not your marketing.

John Jantsch (09:27.45)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:43.988)

Hehehehehe

Kevin D. St.Clergy (09:50.036)

Why did you say you'll never be as big as me? She goes, because I just know it. I know I'm not going to be as big as you, you know, I'm like, okay, well, let's work on that. So we spent the first call working on mindset because our coaching program we called M3 mastery. It's mindset, margins, momentum. I just find if we build the business owner that builds the business, we've had a lot of success with that over the years. And a lot of times just giving them a way.

to dream bigger and think big makes a huge difference. We were at dinner a couple nights ago. I was on a big podcast, live podcast here in Austin with a bunch of people and one of the people was one of my customers and she had been invited too. And she's like, you know, before I met you, I just thought I'd be happy with just a million dollar a year business working, know, Monday through Friday, eight to five. And I never thought that I'd have a $3 million a year business working Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and taking Thursdays and Fridays completely off.

It wasn't until you taught me how to think bigger that made the big difference for me. So build the business owner that builds the business and start thinking big. I mean, that's why we're, you know, we had an eight figure exit. I want a hundred million dollar exit next. That's my next thing. So the bigger you think, the bigger you'll get.

John Jantsch (10:51.417)

if

John Jantsch (10:59.354)

So, let's go back to that marketing example. I totally agree with you. Walking that back to mindset certainly was the place to go. But we work with a lot of agencies and I mean, so I hear this story all the time. You deliver, results are still flat, everyone blames the agency. So you've probably heard that exact situation. How do you get people to walk that back? Because they're basically making that

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:01.933)

you

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:22.285)

.

John Jantsch (11:28.686)

decision, if you will, that blame based on what data they can see or what data they think they have and that data is we're not growing.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:32.066)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:39.342)

Yeah, so they, I mean, we call it the three fatal falls of blind blaming. So the first one, we have these cognitive biases, John, that you're well aware of, because I've been following you for years, and you've helped me a lot over my career, so I could say thank you in person, by the way. But.

John Jantsch (11:51.799)

You

Kevin D. St.Clergy (11:53.838)

I think the first fatal flaw is there's this thing called availability bias. And these cognitive biases are there to help us make decisions quicker and do things better and faster, but they can be getting away and hinder our success as well. And the first one is called availability bias, which means the first thing that pops into an entrepreneur's head about what's wrong with their marketing, that's it. It's got to be their agency and the people that have agencies that are working with customers. Cause I had a marketing agency for 17 years. I know the scars. I've got the deep wounds. For those of you who do choose to read the book, you'll see those wounds in the, in the book with some of my

examples. But once they do that then the next fatal flaw comes into play where it's confirmation bias. They become a treasure hunter to prove themselves right and they start looking for data to back that up. Well I'm definitely slow. It was my slowest month ever and I wasn't slow before I hired you guys so it's your fault.

And so then finally, you're too busy looking at the wrong problem, you can't focus on the right solutions. So that's the third fatal flaw. So what we do though is, especially for like agencies, when working with agencies, I just share with them what we did when we changed our whole model from just providing digital marketing services to a business growth company and started including coaching, because I was getting so frustrated and so angry of generating leads and then them not converting those leads to appointments. And so we created Front Desk Academy.

Then I was getting really frustrated because we were putting the leads in front of them and then they weren't closing them. And of course it's still our fault. Couldn't be them, it's not their sales process, not another sales training. I had a recent customer and she said this online out loud to everyone that when I mentioned that we really need to work on your sales process, she started crying. So it was, I was like, I didn't want to make you cry. I said, no, it's not you, you're right, I need to fix this. So.

I think what agencies need to do is they need to pivot a little bit and they need to start looking at the results that they get and what it really does. Because people, don't think people want to sign up for more marketing. They don't want to spend money on marketing. What they want is to make more money, grow their business and have more of an impact.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (13:47.534)

And that's the change we made in 2018. When we became a business development company that provided digital marketing services, and no matter what they did with us, we would help them grow. Because let's face it, you've done this, John, some marketing works, some doesn't. Some digital marketing takes months to get going. But what we did is we developed a business assessment to help them identify holes in their bucket, and then we helped them fill it. So weekly, we were coaching them for the first eight to 10 weeks they were on board with us, where a lot of people got a return on their investment before we even started their marketing, before it got going.

John Jantsch (14:17.412)

Yes.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (14:17.665)

That's when we quadrupled the size of our company. We did really well. We weren't even looking to sell. Our broker came to us and said, look, I think your business is worth this. And we started laughing. And then he got that. So it was kind of a blessed day. Anyway, I hope that answers your question in a good way.

John Jantsch (14:21.924)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:29.242)

Yeah, no, absolutely. That's really where we've been for years. mean, the only thing when people engage us, it's not to do their marketing, it's to do what we call strategy first, which is a very set engagement that has set deliverables that we work on their business objectives first. We work on the founder and finding where they're getting in the way. and I tell you from a marketing standpoint, it changes the whole relationship too.

in day one not seen as a vendor. We're seen as a trusted advisor and all the other stuff we want to recommend, they're like bring it on because you've changed the relationship.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:01.046)

Yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:09.279)

Yeah, and I love it. Yeah, because you've become a partner and when somebody comes in with a lower price, they're like, yeah, but I lose John and his team. That's what we learned. We just did it. The story is in my book as well. But yeah, I agree. And I love that you're doing that.

John Jantsch (15:13.433)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:16.761)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:23.62)

So symptom fixing versus root cause thinking. How do you get people, most people are in symptom, you know, this hurts, you know, how do I fix it? How do you get people to start thinking way beyond the symptom to, you know, wellness, if you will, if we're going to use the analogy.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (15:41.174)

Yeah, so back to that. We teach them the process. We teach them how to move beyond blind blaming with making them aware that blind blaming exists and they're suffering from it. Then we take them through the RCD method, but a lot of times they don't really know how to dig a little deeper. So we've been really big on if we're working with coaches or agencies, helping them develop an assessment that does go deeper.

And then that's how we identify things. We have them take a small assessment that helps them step out of the box and take a look at the way they're doing things. For some reason, I mean, when I used to do it in person, it worked okay, but when they have them do the assessment and they see the results with the AI stuff we have today, it's made a huge difference. And they're like, man, I knew exactly when I went through this assessment what's really going on.

And now it just helps my coaching go a lot faster. Don't know why I'm not, I don't, it was just something that I learned to do at a conference and we started using it and then we started teaching our clients to do the same and they're seeing the same thing. So having an assessment that helps them step out of the box and look at the way they're doing things to identify some other things it can be is one of the first things. But a lot of times just if you're working with a good coach like yourself, who's got a lot of experience and you've seen the same mistakes that entrepreneurs make every other day when it comes to their marketing, we know.

Cause I love it when people tell me like, well, I definitely need to rebuild my website. And I always ask why. Look, I had a digital marketing. My company's job was to produce some doubt so that you would switch to us. But I always instructed our practice advisors as we called them, cause we were in the medical field to ask them how many leads a month before you switch and come to us, how many leads a month are you going? And you can probably guess what we got, John. What do you mean?

John Jantsch (17:16.922)

One, two, yeah. Yeah, well, that's true.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (17:18.253)

I have no idea. No, most of time it was like, I don't know. I just know I need to switch because my business is down. And then sometimes we wouldn't let people come on board. like, listen, no offense. I'd love to earn your business, but you're getting like 30 leads a month from your current marketing company. I don't think you have a problem with this. And we used to secret shop their clinics before we'd get on the phone with them. I like, listen, your problem is your front desk. In fact, you know, when we said how much are your hearing aids, she said they can be as much as $7,000, but you probably won't need those. Great script.

No, they would hang up and go away. And I said, guess who scored worse on these secret shopper calls? Do you think it was the front desk or the owner? The owner. They're the worst. So anyway, that's, that's some of the things that we do is help them step out of the box and take a look at other things.

John Jantsch (17:52.922)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:00.1)

So, I mean, you're in the personal coaching mindset space. So you probably quite naturally get, mean, some of your engagements probably get personal pretty fast. and I think, what I think is interesting about that and where there's, see a lot of resistance, particularly from service providers. It's like, I'm just here to do this, you know? but what I've seen is that I think what people are craving now, just what you said, they don't want.

more marketing stuff. They don't, you know, they don't want to basically go, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've talked to somebody and they've had like five agencies and they've all done the same thing. You know, it's like you're hiring them to do the same thing. You know, what did you, what did you expect? And, and what I think people are craving today more than ever is transformation. Um, and I think that we have a real opportunity as service providers or whatever we want to call it to actually go so much deeper and help them evolve.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (18:39.021)

yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (18:42.519)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:58.552)

not just as a business, but as a person. And that's a space that I think is wide open, quite frankly, in the marketing world.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:05.229)

Yeah, I agree because we, as I said, we found that we in our big masterminds where we charge 25 and 50 grand a year. It's very interesting to me to go from a digital marketing company charge of $900 a month.

John Jantsch (19:15.63)

Yeah, right.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:17.549)

and having this, have you done for me today to 25 and 50 and then soon to be $100,000 level and have people go, I can't believe this, you changed my life. I can't wait for next year. Let's, they're re-upping. We have a 90 % up rate, re-up rate at the end of the year. It's fascinating to me because we changed the way we focus. We talked about that transformation and what's happened with other clients. So yeah, totally with you. And it's, it's just amazing to me. If we can get more agencies to focus on that transformation, John, uh, cause that's what we just trademarked heck out of this, but we call our program M3 Mastery from Trans

John Jantsch (19:34.852)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:39.46)

Peace.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (19:47.456)

transactional to transformational and that was my big lesson when we really focused on Getting some transformation in their business not just what we did or the service provide That would that made a huge difference and sometimes as you said We'd find that the owner has a health problem that when I am diagnosed for years Like just recently we had somebody who has a very large eight figure a year of business, but she was miserable I was like, long has it she been to the doctor? She's about 43. So she's getting up to you know in that age She's like, you know, I read your book and I've got an appointment

John Jantsch (19:49.38)

Nice.

John Jantsch (20:13.742)

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (20:16.981)

And so she came back and she's like, my God, my testosterone is low and I had no idea. It's been that way for years. My doctor never run the test. And once we got that fixed, she exploded. Her team culture completely changed. Everything came into place where the coaching finally started working. Cause she was getting frustrated with me and I'm like, look, I think there's something else going on that you're missing. Let's go back to that assessment. Cause we look at five different areas. We look at their health, we look at their purpose. We look at their relationships, not necessarily their personal relationships with the people, how they react with people.

John Jantsch (20:22.468)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (20:32.985)

Hmph.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (20:46.895)

people at work and a few other things like a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and then we make sure they have the right resources and usually in those five areas it's not about finding one thing in each area John it's about finding that one thing and for her it was low testosterone which is something that I went through a couple years ago so I put in the book.

John Jantsch (20:46.906)

Sure.

John Jantsch (21:00.396)

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Well, Kevin, I appreciate you taking a moment, a few moments to share with our audience. Is there someplace you'd invite people to find out more about your work and certainly get a copy of the book?

Kevin D. St.Clergy (21:12.011)

Yeah, you bet. Yes, sir. I always recommend people go to the website blindblaming.com.

We have for 15 bucks, have all four copies of the book that you can get plus a bunch of bonuses. It's just a great way to get in our funnel and you'll get invites to some of the challenges and things like that that we do as well. So blindblaming.com is the best place to go and just from the feedback I've got the last couple of years on the book, the book. You can listen to it whether it's audio, PDF, or if you're a book book person like I am because I'm older, you can get all four copies and I think it'll change your life.

John Jantsch (21:42.854)

I appreciate it. And again, hopefully we'll run into one of these days when we're out there on the road. In fact, I'm going to be in Austin.

Kevin D. St.Clergy (21:51.38)

great, I'd love to see you. Yeah, come up to the compound. We'd love to have you. So we got indoor golf, we got a garage, Mahal, we got a casino, we got a wine cellar. So we got some fun up here. Come see me.

John Jantsch (21:51.537)

maybe I'll stop by.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/YjLugwn
via IFTTT

Niching Down Transforms Your Marketing Agency

Niching Down Transforms Your Marketing Agency written by Jordan E read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Duct Tape Marketing CEO Sara Nay, sits down with Stephanie McGirr, founder of EGS Marketing Solutions and Amplify DPC. Stephanie shares how niching into the direct primary care (DPC) space transformed her agency, allowing her to streamline processes, build scalable systems, and deliver more impactful results.

The conversation dives into the importance of strategy before tools, how automation can empower small healthcare practices, and why marketing leadership—especially through fractional CMO services—is becoming essential. Stephanie also offers a grounded perspective on AI in marketing, emphasizing its role as a tool rather than a replacement for human insight.

This episode is a must-listen for agency owners, healthcare marketers, and small business leaders looking to scale with clarity and efficiency.

Guest Bio

Stephanie McGirr is the founder of EGS Marketing Solutions and Amplify DPC. With over 20 years of experience in marketing, she specializes in helping direct primary care practices grow through streamlined systems, automation, and strategic marketing leadership. Combining healthcare insight with agency expertise, Stephanie supports both startup and established practices in building sustainable, scalable businesses.

Key Takeaways

1. Niching Down Drives Growth and Efficiency

Focusing on a specific industry allowed Stephanie to refine her processes, improve client results, and generate consistent referrals. Specialization led to deeper expertise and more scalable systems.

2. Systems and Automation Are Essential for Small Practices

Many direct primary care practices operate with minimal staff. By simplifying workflows and automating administrative tasks, providers can focus more on patient care and less on operations.

3. Strategy Must Come Before Tools

Jumping into platforms without a clear strategy leads to wasted effort. Successful marketing starts with understanding goals, challenges, and existing processes before implementing tools or campaigns.

4. Fractional CMO Services Fill a Critical Gap

Small business owners often lack marketing leadership. Fractional CMO support provides strategic direction, helping businesses move beyond task execution to intentional growth.

5. AI Is a Tool—Not a Replacement

AI is transforming marketing, but human oversight remains essential. The most effective approach blends AI efficiency with human creativity and strategic thinking.

6. Education Is Key in Emerging Markets

In industries like direct primary care, marketing must focus heavily on educating prospects. Longer sales cycles require clear communication of value and consistent engagement.

7. Business Ownership Challenges Are Universal

Many struggles faced by healthcare providers are not industry-specific—they are common to all entrepreneurs. Recognizing this helps reduce overwhelm and focus on solutions.

Great Moments

• 00:57 – Stephanie shares how becoming a patient led her to niche into direct primary care
• 02:16 – The impact of niching on processes, referrals, and business growth
• 06:03 – How to simplify and automate operations for small practices
• 07:57 – Why strategy must come before tools in marketing
• 10:21 – The role of fractional CMO services in small businesses
• 14:13 – The growing influence of AI in marketing
• 16:40 – The “dating relationship” analogy for customer journeys
• 18:30 – Why education is critical in direct primary care marketing
• 20:35 – Advice for marketers navigating AI and industry changes

 Quotes

“If I can do nothing but help them grow, then I’d feel really good about what we do—and I went all in.”

“This is not a DPC problem. This is a business ownership problem.”

“AI is a tool, not the end game. Human oversight will never go away.”

“Don’t let fear drive your efforts—use it, learn with it, and grow with it.”

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Sara Nay (00:00.996)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Sara Nay stepping in for John Jantsch and today my guest is Stephani McGirr. Stephani is the founder of EGS Marketing Solutions and Amplify DTPC where she helps direct primary care practices grow through smarter marketing systems and strategy. With more than 20 years of experience, she brings a unique mix of healthcare insight, agency leadership and practical.

marketing expertise. Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Stephani McGirr (00:31.817)

Hi, thank you for having me.

Sara Nay (00:33.912)

glad you're here. So I know we've spoken previously because I've gotten to know you in different business settings. And one of the things that you shared with me early on is that you decided at some point to focus on a very specific niche for your agency. And it's been a really positive decision for your business. So I would love to hear what drove you to focus on a niche specifically and how that's been beneficial to you.

Stephani McGirr (00:57.516)

Yeah, actually I started working with this industry just because I love it. And I am a patient of a direct primary care clinic. It's how I got started. My own provider was asking me, hey, can you help me with some things? I know you do marketing. And the conversation started and we just went deep and I've helped her grow from one to three practices. It's been a fun journey to be given that opportunity. And then referrals in the industry started coming naturally before I was helping

just any local based small business owner, right? The small local service area, different services. So not e-commerce or physical stores, really focus on the service industry. And by being able to niche down into this one area, it really helped us focus our efforts and become really streamlined not only with our processes and what we do for campaigns and strategy development, but also being able to stream

all of the processes on the client side and help them get really good at what they're doing. So referrals started coming in for this one industry and I thought, you know, I really believe in what this industry is doing and if I can do nothing but help them grow, then I'd feel really good about what we do and I went all in.

Sara Nay (02:16.964)

Yeah, I love that. I've been in the game for about 16 years myself and whenever we're working with businesses that are doing good and making an impact in the world, it just gives you so much more drive in the work that you're doing. So I love that. Thank you for sharing. One of the things that you noted is niching down has helped you develop your processes, but also your clients processes. And so in the small business space, what I see often is people are kind of just making it up as they go when it comes to marketing and there's not a lot of systems and processes behind what they do.

And so can you talk to me more about how you come in to a client of yours and help them build out their systems and processes a bit more?

Stephani McGirr (02:54.349)

Yeah, so it kind of starts to giving a deep dive into what tech pieces are you using? Where are you? How big are you? How involved is tech in the management of the practice? Some people are doing everything manually. Some people have literal multiple systems connected together or spreadsheets and the tech stack that can be. And so we first analyze what's going on and then what is essential to move over,

they have to keep, we started using Go High Level as an agency, which is our Amplify DPC platform. We started using it for service-based clients at first. I had no intention of selling it as a separate software on a different name. It helped us streamline everything we were doing. So instead of logging into a different system for every client with a different process, we were able to streamline our inside.

SOPs. And then for the clients who didn't have a tool, they were given a tool to be able to manage their practice. Just as we put more and more clients in the same industry on the system, we realized that we were custom creating sales funnels and workflows with every single person. And a lot of these things were something that every practice could implement, like a patient onboarding workflow. So what's unique about the DPC industry is that they don't take insurance in their membership model of health care. So you pay one

flat rate and you have unlimited access to your provider with no co-pays per visit. Some people refer to it as like the streaming for your healthcare like you do for online movies and TV shows. But so with that analogy, the onboarding process and the retention and the referral process in that industry is really big. And so we just had all of these workflows that were working across the board and

realizing that as this industry is also very new, it's been around a long time, but it's still new enough that direct primary care is not mainstream, right? People aren't looking for direct primary care. They're still looking for just a doctor or a healthcare provider. So the education piece of that is also really big. And when I'm gonna stop, I'm rambling and I lost track of where I was going.

Sara Nay (05:15.295)

Okay, no worries.

Stephani McGirr (05:18.497)

You were asking me, I wanna get back to the point, and I just realized I went off in a different tangent.

Sara Nay (05:23.172)

That's okay, that's okay. We can always edit it as we need. So I was asking you really about bringing systems and processes to your client was the focus of the conversation. Yeah, of course.

Stephani McGirr (05:31.265)

Yes, thank you. And I went completely the other way. OK, so I'm just going to start stop back and I can just start that question that answer over again. I remember where I was. I am so sorry. All right, thank you for editing this. OK, so how have we created systems and processes for clients or why? OK. Yeah, OK.

Sara Nay (05:39.194)

Of course, yeah.

It's okay, no worries.

Sara Nay (05:51.578)

Yep, essentially, Yep, because I was talking about how a lot of people, like lot of small businesses in general, kind of playing a guessing game with their marketing without putting a lot of systems and processes in place. And so how do you bring that structure to your clients?

Stephani McGirr (06:03.105)

Yes. Yes. OK. Well, all our clients are kind of all over the place because we work with smaller direct primary care startups and larger practices that have multiple providers, multiple locations. So being able to figure out what tool they need and how to simplify and automate their practice, those are the two goals. Simplify their their business.

and practice procedures and then automate as much because a lot of these practices are small and they don't have a large office staff. They work outside the traditional insurance world so they don't need a large staff to be able to handle the billing and insurance processing and a lot of them are just the provider and maybe a supplemental staff member. So by being able to give them a tool to handle the administration side of things and automate the business processes in that way, it's been

really helpful that they can grow their practice, focus on patient care, and not have to spend extra time on admin. That's where we focused on the tool implementation.

Sara Nay (07:12.056)

Yeah, that's great. And so I went through things a bit backwards based on that first conversation asking about tools and processes where typically when we're coming in and working with clients, we think about the strategy and then we think about the processes and tools. And that's where I actually see a lot of small businesses get stuck when it comes to marketing as they bring in a platform, they bring in a process, they start executing marketing without taking the step back and saying,

as a practice, what are we trying to accomplish strategically and what workflows do we need in place and all of that good stuff. So I believe you are a believer in strategy as well. And so when you're working with a client, how do you get started with them to understand what they actually need to do before you even start talking about specific tools?

Stephani McGirr (07:57.25)

Well, we use a tool for our clients. So when you become a client of our agency, we give you our Amplify DPC tool. That is a benefit of working with us. It is part of what we do for you, because when we run our services, we're running it through the system. And then you just get to use all of the features of it. Amplify DPC is a go high level.

as a white label. it is the tool that's built for marketing automation, the one tool that has all of the pieces for you. So it simplifies subscriptions and it reduces the cost in all of these other ways, as well as simplifies their processes and the number of systems they're having to log into. So it helps us and it helps them. And the reason why we sell it separately outside of services, because this was not our first intention, right? We were just implementing it for actually

our services and for the clients that we are supporting. But then we realized there are so many startup practices in the industry that need the help, need the tools, need the guidance, but they don't have the budget to pay an agency. And so by being able to provide them the tool, then we're just helping another level of providers in a larger group until they are large enough with a budget to be able to support somebody to help them along the way.

Sara Nay (09:17.368)

Yeah, okay. And so they might come in and start with a tool, but let's say they're ready for more strategic guidance and leadership. What does that look like in terms of your services for clients?

Stephani McGirr (09:27.405)

We would, everything starts with a conversation, right? We have a consultation, we talk about what are your goals, what are the struggles that you're currently having, what are the processes you're currently implementing, and then we look at, you know, what's working, what's not. I love to do that strategy first piece where we're really digging in deep before we commit to a specific plan.

of action. So that way we know everything that we're going to implement is for what they need in their unique practice level.

Sara Nay (09:58.902)

Great. One of the elements that we're thinking about and talking about a lot when it comes to marketing right now is the need for marketing leadership. And so not just necessarily always more people doing marketing, like yes, the doing needs to get done. But where a lot of businesses are seem to be struggling right now is having someone actually leading their marketing. And so is that an avenue that you've stepped into for your clients as well?

Stephani McGirr (10:21.237)

Yes, I also offer the fractional CMO services. And so in this aspect, it's really helpful because it's a personal struggle of mine being an agency owner as well. We offer a set plan for somebody who doesn't have the additional funds to be able to have a fractional CMO or that strategic oversight, but they need the tasks to be done, right? They have to get the work completed. So we do offer that.

But what I don't like about that is the inability to customize it according to what they need. And when you're a practice owner, you are the service provider, right? You are the healthcare provider. So you're not the person with a marketing degree, business degree, all of that. And that's what's interesting with this industry is they're leaving one system and they're joining a new or creating a new way to run their practice. It's a different model.

outside of the standard industry norms. And it's like they're escaping their frustrations with the system that they've been in. They've started their independent practice and then they discover that they're in a new world of frustration. It's a business owner frustration. It's the entrepreneurship, right? Wearing all the hats, exactly.

Sara Nay (11:30.232)

Yeah. Yeah. It's all the hats that they're wearing now.

Stephani McGirr (11:37.166)

And the last time I was at a conference and this conversation actually came up, they're like, the struggle for DPC, right? You have to do this, this, that, and the other. And I just, I stepped up to say I want to...

kind of give you some reassurance, this is not a DPC problem. This is a business ownership problem. When you are the business owner, the CEO, if you don't have the support staff or the means to operate your business more streamlined, then you are going to be overwhelmed, busy doing all of those things. So it was...

I felt like it was really encouraging for them to realize they're not alone in their industry. It's just, it's that business owner problem and being able to take that understanding and say, okay, this is normal. It kind of gives a little bit of relief. And then they can focus on what the next step is to overcome the overwhelm, how to streamline, how to automate. And so we do focus on both sides. And then from that fractional CMO side,

coming in, being able to support them in that more in-depth way, and then helping them work through what's right for their practice and their situation.

Sara Nay (12:50.712)

Yeah, that's great. We often say, you know, helping the business owners stay in their zone of genius versus doing all of the things. And so as entrepreneurs, you know, oftentimes you get into a business because you're passionate about something and then all of sudden you have to become somewhat passionate about finance and marketing and sales and managing team and hiring and onboarding, all the things that go along with it. And so it's, it's overwhelming. And I would agree like they're not alone. That's just a common.

Stephani McGirr (13:18.412)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (13:18.572)

struggle in the small business space. That's great. Thanks for sharing your perspective on that. Next question is because you've been in marketing for 20-ish years, I believe at this point.

Stephani McGirr (13:29.805)

Yeah, experiencing marketing, learning marketing. I did run a different business earlier on and I was learning marketing by running my own business because I was the business owner doing all the things. I was collecting more certifications along the way because I was learning by doing. Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:33.274)

Great.

Sara Nay (13:38.872)

because you needed to.

Sara Nay (13:45.624)

Yeah, that's great. I've worked with lot of marketers over the years where they were in a business, they ended up having to learn marketing, they kind of enjoyed it, got the hang of it and then transitioned to helping others. So think it's fairly common path. Okay, so being in marketing over the years though, regardless if it was in your business or working with others, how do you feel like the landscape is changing right now versus in previous years?

Stephani McGirr (14:13.237)

Of course, it's all around AI, right? This new tool, new technology, people don't all accept it yet, but some love it and are willing to dive in. So I think it's almost like DPC itself. DPC is not mainstream. People don't get it. People don't understand it, but it's growing, right? So right now, what's changing the landscape most is AI. And people don't understand it yet. And trying to figure out ways to...

Sara Nay (14:33.412)

Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (14:42.375)

still keep marketing human, the message human, the connection human, but being able to use the tool to be able to be more efficient at what you're doing. That's, think the biggest piece of it.

Sara Nay (14:51.982)

Yeah. And so for you and your agency and your fractional CMO services, are you using AI as part of your team or are you empowering your clients to use AI? How are you approaching it specifically?

Stephani McGirr (15:06.797)

Yeah, a little bit of both. So we have some clients that don't want AI anything and we make sure that we write the content and we're really in on that. But for the most part, our clients are even giving us feedback. Hey, I went to chat GPT and gave me this. Can we do something like this? They'll bring their ideas, run it through AI and then give us the idea. And that's how we kind of start the...

Sara Nay (15:25.454)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (15:33.856)

ideation of a new concept that they want to implement. So it's really hit or miss depending on what the client wants, but we are incorporating it in our processes. I think it's smart, you know, just being efficient. I don't believe we're at a place yet where AI can do what it needs to do without human oversight. So I say it's a tool, not the end game of using it and relying on it. Yeah.

Sara Nay (15:59.982)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a great tool, I would say, but it can be misused and overhyped in many ways. And so I think a lot of people got into AI of like with the original thinking of like, we don't have to hire anyone and we can have super lean teams and we're going to like have all these agents and automation set up. And maybe that's where marketing is going.

Maybe, but right now I still believe as you said, human on the front end, human on the back end, approaching things strategically, editing, feeding AI all of your story, like all of that stuff still needs to happen from humans at this point too. Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (16:40.023)

Right, right. And I always use the analogy of the dating relationship for marketing and the customer journey, right? So having that relationship is important, especially in the industry I work with. It's a very close relationship model of healthcare where the providers really get to know their patients on a deeper level because they spend time with them. They're not rushed in and out. They take longer time and...

Sara Nay (17:03.108)

Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (17:06.921)

that model just allows a deeper connection to grow. And so I bring that into the marketing concept of it. Well, that should start with leads and the lead to conversion into membership cycle. It shouldn't start once they become a patient. And the right tools and automations can help you streamline your work, but stay personal and stay relational.

Sara Nay (17:26.938)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And imagine for the practice that you serve, you know, it's a lot of awareness and education on the front end when it comes to marketing, but then a lot of retention and probably some referrals on the back end when it comes to marketing where, know, lot of doctors offices out here, I'm in Idaho, like it's hard to get into doctors offices, like to get an appointment anytime soon. And so they're not really having to do a lot in terms of retention. Then people call them when they're sick and they come in.

with this model where it's more membership based, I imagine you're doing more of like ongoing education events retention type of marketing. Is that a correct assumption?

Stephani McGirr (18:04.117)

Yeah, absolutely. You these practices are not getting patients just because they're on an insurance plan. So they have to actually be visible and they have to let the public around them know that their practice exists. And then once they do become aware of the practice, the education part is huge and the lead to conversion time is typically longer just because it's so different. The questions are, why don't you take my insurance?

Sara Nay (18:08.995)

Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (18:30.219)

the monthly membership, why do I have to pay, what if I don't come in every month, little pieces like that. And so it's the education of the value of the membership, what you get above and beyond a single visit. And then once somebody realizes that they have that level of healthcare, they're more likely to go in to see their provider because it's not gonna nickel and dime them for every visit and they get better healthcare and results because of it.

Once the model is more well understood, think that lead to conversion time will definitely lessen and go much higher, but there's a lot of education involved. Yeah.

Sara Nay (19:03.066)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (19:06.862)

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Where do you see marketing going in the next year or two? Any major shifts or changes that you're thinking about or considering either for your business or for your clients?

Stephani McGirr (19:19.893)

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. You know, at this point, honestly, I'm kind of along for the ride and I feel like the sky right now with the way and the speed that technology is advancing and changing. I can't honestly say if I could pinpoint one idea or another, but it's it's I feel like if we don't embrace the AI technology, we will get left behind. And it's it's smart. It's speed.

for implementation and research. So I think those pieces of the tool are important to use and know and be aware of, and then being able to take advantage of how to use it.

Sara Nay (20:01.774)

Yeah, I think it is hard to predict the future right now when it comes to marketing because stuff changes so quickly. I was on a podcast recently and someone asked me where I see marketing being in 10 years and I'm like, your guess is as good as mine in 10 years. Who the heck knows? So I can relate. Well, if anyone's listening today and you want them to take away one tip or piece of insight from our conversation or maybe it's something that I didn't ask you that you think would be helpful.

Stephani McGirr (20:16.461)

I know what I feel like.

Sara Nay (20:31.7)

anything comes to mind that you want to double tap on.

Stephani McGirr (20:35.437)

I think the only thing I can think of right now is, if you're talking from an agency perspective, don't be fearful of AI. Don't be fearful of being squeezed out of a job market. I think if you're embracing it in the right way, if you use it the right way, that strategic human oversight will never go away. So being able to stay relevant in the market is more important.

Sara Nay (20:49.156)

Yeah.

Stephani McGirr (21:03.499)

Yeah, just don't let fear drive your efforts, but use it and learn with it and grow with it.

Sara Nay (21:12.11)

Yeah, I often, you know, in the personal growth journey that I've been on is, if something scares you a little bit, it's usually worth looking into or at least exploring a bit more versus completely shutting it out altogether. Well, I you also recently went through our fractional CMO certification. And so anything you're willing to share in terms of a takeaway or anything that was beneficial from that program as we wrap up.

Stephani McGirr (21:36.628)

Yeah, it was really interesting for me because I've been working as a fractional CMO for much longer than before this certification program, but I still decided to take it because I liked the interesting aspect that you guys brought to it and the way it helps guide the services after.

not just big campaign concepts. So I've been coming from the bigger campaign concepts, these bigger pieces, and then rolling into regular retainers. And so this is really helping us customize and really get very specific to those business individual.

use cases. So that's what I really love about it. And also you bring a lot of AI implementation knowledge into it. And that's helpful because I love learning from different people, different tools and ways to implement AI. So it was all very beneficial.

Sara Nay (22:35.706)

Great. Thank you so much for sharing and for being on the show. If people want to connect with you online, where can they find you?

Stephani McGirr (22:42.125)

Sure, you can find me under EGS Marketing Solutions as the marketing agency or Amplify DPC as the software. And I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Sara Nay (22:52.308)

and we'll put those in the show notes as we publish this recording. So thank you so much Stephanie for being here and thank you everyone for listening to the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. We'll see you next time.

Stephani McGirr (23:02.008)

Thank you.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/2tP1xb9
via IFTTT

Turn Client Relationships Into Revenue Growth

Turn Client Relationships Into Revenue Growth written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch sits down with Taylor McMaster, founder of Dot & Company, to unpack a commonly overlooked growth constraint in agencies: client account management. While most agencies obsess over lead generation and fulfillment, Taylor makes the case that long-term growth is driven by what happens after the sale.

The conversation explores how proactive communication, structured onboarding, and a culture of ownership can dramatically improve retention, increase client lifetime value, and unlock scalable growth. Taylor also shares insights on fractional account management, building acquisition-ready businesses, and how agencies can stay relevant in an AI-driven landscape.

Guest Bio

Taylor McMaster is the founder of Dot & Company, a specialized firm focused on helping digital marketing agencies improve client retention through better account management. Her company provides fractional account managers and builds systems for onboarding, communication, and client experience. Taylor also hosts the Happy Clients Podcast and has built Dot & Company into an acquisition-ready business, offering a unique perspective on specialization and scalable agency models.

Key Takeaways

1. Retention Is the Real Growth Lever

Most agencies focus heavily on acquiring clients but neglect the systems required to keep them. Strong account management directly impacts profitability and long-term growth.

2. Account Managers Are Growth Drivers, Not Just Support

The role goes beyond project coordination. Great account managers identify upsell opportunities, align services with evolving client goals, and actively contribute to revenue growth.

3. Proactive Communication Builds Trust

Silence creates doubt. Consistent, proactive communication ensures clients feel progress is being made and reinforces trust throughout the engagement.

4. Onboarding Sets the Tone for the Entire Relationship

A structured onboarding process is a key differentiator. How a client starts with you often determines retention, satisfaction, and perceived value.

5. Sales and Account Management Must Be Aligned

Misaligned expectations during the sales process create downstream issues. Involving account managers early ensures continuity and better client outcomes.

6. Delegation Requires Systems and Trust

Agency owners struggle to let go because processes live in their heads. Documented systems and gradual trust-building are essential for scaling beyond the founder.

7. Fractional Doesn’t Mean Disconnected

Fractional account managers can feel like full-time team members when integrated properly into culture, communication, and workflows.

8. Specialization Creates Competitive Advantage

Dot & Company’s success stems from focusing narrowly on account management, allowing them to build deep expertise and stand out in a crowded market.

9. Human Experience Is the Differentiator in the AI Era

As AI tools become more prevalent, clients will increasingly value human connection, strategic thinking, and consultative relationships.

10. Build a Business That Can Run Without You

A key factor in Dot & Company’s acquisition was Taylor removing herself from day-to-day operations, reducing risk and increasing business value.

Great Moments

00:01 – The Hidden Growth Constraint
John introduces the idea that account management—not lead generation—may be the real bottleneck in agency growth.

01:14 – The “Butt in the Seat” Mistake
Taylor explains why hiring an account manager without a strategy often fails.

02:44 – Account Managers as Revenue Drivers
Discussion on how account managers should actively identify upsell opportunities.

05:04 – The Power of Overcommunication
Taylor shares her philosophy on proactive communication and its impact on client perception.

07:18 – Why Onboarding Matters More Than You Think
John explains how structured onboarding drives long-term retention.

08:02 – Bringing Account Managers Into Sales
Avoiding the “handoff” problem by integrating delivery teams early.

10:27 – Letting Go as a Founder
How to build trust and transition client relationships away from the owner.

14:42 – AI vs Human Experience
Taylor explains why human connection will matter more—not less—in an AI-driven world.

16:22 – The Power of Specialization
Why Taylor chose a narrow focus and how it fueled growth.

21:06 – Building an Acquisition-Ready Business
Key factors that made Dot & Company attractive to buyers.

Memorable Quotes

“Account management really is part of the whole picture. It’s retaining your clients, keeping them around, and that directly affects your bottom line.”

“Every day that goes by without communication, clients think you’re doing nothing.”

“We don’t want clients to outgrow us—we want to grow with them.”

“People are going to crave the human experience more and more, but expect better results and efficiency.”

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:01.46)

What if the real growth constraint inside an agency is not lead generation or fulfillment, but the way client relationships are managed after the sale? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. My guest is Taylor McMaster, founder of Dot & Company, a business built around helping digital marketing agencies improve client retention through better client account management.

Rather than focusing on campaigns or delivery, Taylor specializes in the client facing side of agency growth, onboarding, communication, meetings, project flow, and account management systems. She also hosts the happy clients podcast and her experience building dot and company is a specialized acquisition ready business gives her a unique perspective on retention, specialization, and creating an agency model that can grow beyond the founder. So welcome Taylor. So, you know, as I read that,

Taylor (00:51.554)

Thanks for having me, John.

John Jantsch (00:54.784)

We are talking about agencies here, but quite frankly, account management, there's lot of types of businesses that have that function or should have that function. Is there something that you saw really convinced you that that was really a core growth issue and not what most people focus on getting more clients?

Taylor (01:14.616)

Yeah, I would say in the beginning of starting Dot and Company, it was mainly a pain point for the agency owners that I knew. They were all working so hard on building their marketing funnels and getting leads on their calendar and closing those leads, but they didn't have the time or energy to think about keeping those clients around. And they knew in their heart that they needed somebody to do this job.

but they almost approached it as more of a butt in the seat. They were like, I just need to hire an account manager and then my days will be free and I won't have to talk to clients ever again. But they didn't realize that account management really is part of the whole picture. It's retaining your clients, keeping them around and in turn, that really affects your bottom line. yeah.

John Jantsch (02:02.612)

Yeah. And you know, there's another element to that too. I think it's easy to focus on retention, but like we retain our clients forever. mean, my longest running client is 22 years. And so we've been through a lot together. But we keep our clients for years. But where we sometimes struggle is our model is pretty much retainer based. So it's like, what can you afford to pay me for the rest of your life?

Taylor (02:13.229)

Wow.

Taylor (02:16.526)

Mmm.

Taylor (02:29.87)

Yeah

John Jantsch (02:30.048)

But then we find out like three or four years later, we're like, well, we need to actually charge more. And so how can client management, account managers, you know, actually be put in sort of the role of selling?

Taylor (02:44.642)

Yeah, yeah. Upselling is a huge part of our role. And the way I always look at it is as an account manager, I am responsible for the whole client experience. And so that is not just onboarding a client and managing their project. It's making sure I'm doing the best that I can for that client, because at the end of the day, I'm responsible for that relationship and keeping them around. And keeping them around means giving them the best outcome.

and making sure that we're helping them hit their business goals. And oftentimes when we as agency owners are working with a client, those business needs evolve and there's always something that is changing or we need to layer on top of something. And my job as the account manager is to be looking for those things or finding these opportunities that I can continue to help my client evolve. And we want to be a part of that. We don't want this client to outgrow us. We want to grow with that client. So that's a huge part of our role and responsibility.

John Jantsch (03:41.44)

That's almost a culture point, isn't it? I mean, because I think a lot of people are like, well, that's not my job. My job is to make sure that this stuff goes out the door. so it really has to be that, that almost need, I mean, that not almost, that needs to be part of the job description, doesn't it?

Taylor (03:46.56)

Absolutely.

Taylor (03:56.717)

Yes, it does. And I think you see this all the time, John, I'm sure, is in our industry, I find people are so siloed in their roles and they put a box around themselves. like, well, that's not my job. I'm not doing that. But what I have always, how I've always worked is I'm just a person who wants to get my fingers into everything. And I want to help with sales and I want to help with operations and all this stuff. the way we've kind of packaged up our account manager,

expectations within the role is that you need to want to help the other teams and help the business grow or else that's why are you here, right?

John Jantsch (04:36.596)

You mentioned the word expectations and I was going to bring that up. feel like anytime we've lost a client over the years, it's really been a mismatch in expectations. Our clients, we've basically said, look, the next 90 days, we're going to be doing strategy or whatever it is. And the client's like two weeks in, they're like, how come the phone's not ringing? How do you actually work on managing communication, expectations, trust throughout the process?

Taylor (04:55.395)

Mm-hmm.

Taylor (05:04.502)

Yeah. You know, it's, I wish I had a SOP for this, but really it's, my methodology is over communication, proactive communication. And to me, proactive communication is not just, hey, we're doing strategy for the next 90 days and then hoping that the client understands that. It is every day over communicating and making sure that we are on the same page over and over and over and over again.

John Jantsch (05:14.058)

Right. Right.

Taylor (05:31.565)

because that client doesn't know anything generally about what in the world you're doing. And even though you have sold them on this story of the outcomes that you're going to get them, they don't understand how we go from here to actually hitting those goals for my business. So we need to consistently reset expectations every day, whether we feel like we need to or not. So my methodology has always been,

we need to be proactively communicating with our clients. the biggest thing I see, and I see this even when I'm working with other businesses, is every day that goes by that I'm not communicated with, I think they're doing absolutely nothing, right? Like we're human beings, that's just how we work. And so if you're not constantly proactively updating them, reiterating the next steps, reiterating the expectations, that client thinks,

John Jantsch (06:16.702)

Right. Yeah.

Taylor (06:29.08)

Well, I just wasted another 10 grand.

John Jantsch (06:31.328)

Yeah, absolutely. So I will tell you, we have a very formalized onboarding process. We have a very different process in that one of the first things, most of the people we work with are our owners, founders, and we dig into their business objectives before we ever start talking about marketing. And one of things we've discovered early on, I mean, to me, it just made sense. It was logical. But one of the things we discovered very early on is most people don't do that. And having a formalized, structured

onboarding process is even a unique experience for a lot of folks. And what I've discovered is that's one of the secrets to our long-term retention is how a client starts with you is certainly going to determine a ton about how long they stay with you, what the relationship looks like, whether you become an advisor or a vendor.

Taylor (07:18.99)

Yeah, and I think that starts in the sales process too. know, we sometimes, you know, we'll struggle when working with agencies when their sales team is not setting the right expectations and we're not getting the information that we need to kind of pull that over the line. So what I love to do as an account manager is working directly with the sales team so that I understand what this client needs and wants right from the beginning so that

John Jantsch (07:21.596)

It does, 100%.

Taylor (07:47.157)

When I then take them on under my wing and I'm managing this relationship, I know the backstory and I'm not trying to catch up or just take their word on it. I want to know everything. So getting an account manager involved in that sales process is super helpful.

John Jantsch (07:53.119)

Yes.

John Jantsch (08:02.57)

Well, I tell you one of the things we learned a lot of time too, because when I started my agency and I've written a couple of books that were very popular, some people would be attracted to us, but they were really attracted to me. And so naturally I would close them and go, by the way, have you met Taylor? And one of the things that we discovered early on is bringing those folks that are going to work with them in, like you said, in that sales process, they don't feel like they're handed off anymore. They were like,

Taylor (08:13.23)

Mm-hmm.

Taylor (08:30.324)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

John Jantsch (08:31.11)

mean I get the team, you know, as opposed to, now I get the B team. And boy, it made such a huge difference.

Taylor (08:35.65)

Yes.

So John, I'm curious, when your account managers came into the sales process, were they on every sales call or how did you structure that?

John Jantsch (08:46.976)

Fortunately, most of our leads are inbound just because we've been around so long and a lot of stuff's out there. So we close, especially for strategy, most of the time in one call. so consequently, try to get those folks involved. I mean, it may be a second call, like now we're going to have a call for discovery as when we'll bring that and we'll definitely make sure that everybody's going to be involved.

is there so that they see what they're getting. And then we will also, you know, our first step always starts with something we call strategy first. So it's a very scripted, structured process and deliverable. And we actually have everybody on the team deliver a part of that to the client. And so they get a kind of a full blown experience, you know, within the first 30 days of everybody they're going to work with.

Taylor (09:37.75)

Awesome. That's really cool.

John Jantsch (09:40.221)

So

On that same topic, we actually have a network of over a hundred agencies that we work with and train and have licensed our methodology. And one of the struggles they quite often have is as they start to grow, it's like, I want to add account manager. But then they really have trouble letting go. It's like, okay, I hired an account manager or maybe even a lead consultant.

let's call them that. And yet that they still micromanage every element. And it's really, really tough. I hate to answer for you, but I have a feeling I know what your answer is going to be. How do people get to the point where they can feel like, okay, the client's getting the experience I would give them?

Taylor (10:27.916)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's totally valid to feel that way as an entrepreneur, a business owner. get it. You know, we've all gone through that where we have to pass over relationships because it's the only way that we can grow and scale a business, right? It's to not be on every Slack message and every Zoom call. But I think the biggest thing is obviously hiring the right people. That's just a no brainer. You know, you have to have the right people, but trust comes over time.

John Jantsch (10:34.868)

Right.

Taylor (10:56.596)

And it's not something that you have to rush into. And it's not something that has a 30 day expiry. You have to be at a client calls within 30 days. You can build that trust over time. Maybe it's a six month runway and the account manager comes in and they shadow and then they take over a little bit and a little bit more until clients go to them first instead of you and clients realize that.

know, Betty's getting back to them way faster. And even though you're still there and still in the background or maybe still on the strategy, Betty can still be there and do a great job. And so once you start to build that trust, then you get to a point where you're like, I shouldn't be here. I should not be in the account manager seat because Betty's doing a way better job. And then you can then go focus on more important things. But until you get to that pivot point where you're...

John Jantsch (11:29.024)

Yeah.

Taylor (11:46.809)

you're feeling really good about that account manager, for a lot of agency owners, you don't have to run away yet. You don't have to close your eyes and hope for the best. It can be a gradual thing. And so I think when you're thinking about hiring for an account manager, stop thinking about it as just a butt in the seat and stop thinking about somebody just replacing you, because nobody's going to replace you, but somebody can come in and support you and support your clients to give them a really great experience.

John Jantsch (12:04.777)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:09.13)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:15.616)

Well, and the other thing I would add to that certainly and why this is such a challenge for most of the agencies we work with is because they've actually never created a process. It's all here and it's all got and it's like, how can you get, expect somebody else to replicate that? You can't. And it's a ton of work to get from here to wherever you put it. But the payoff is huge. I don't do any sales calls. I don't do any client work.

Taylor (12:27.15)

Yeah.

Taylor (12:37.056)

Absolutely. Yep.

John Jantsch (12:44.956)

in our business. And I spend an inordinate amount of time innovating our processes is what I do. Part of these because I like it, but it is the most valuable work I can do. But it's tough to magically snap your fingers and get there. But that should be the goal, I think, for most of us.

Taylor (12:53.486)

Mmm.

Taylor (12:59.905)

Absolutely.

Taylor (13:08.044)

Yeah, and I think it depends on what your goals are, right? Whenever I'm chatting with agency owners, like, I need an account manager because I want to get out of the day at day to day, but really they don't. Like they actually don't want to, right? So, you know, a lot of the time it's understanding where you want your business to

John Jantsch (13:12.168)

Yeah, yes.

John Jantsch (13:20.126)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (13:27.252)

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I think that's, that's probably the challenge too. Cause you know, the founders are really bad at, you know, once they get to a point where like, I really kind of like to get in there and mess with WordPress and, you know, cause I really enjoy doing it, but it, mean, it's the lowest payoff work you could possibly do. Right. But, but it's so fun, you know? And so that's, that's a real challenge a lot of times.

Taylor (13:47.278)

But it's so fun.

John Jantsch (13:56.576)

How do you create, especially in today's world? I was meeting with a group of agencies in our network today and they were complaining a little bit about the fact that their work clients were actually taking their work and running it through chat GPT and saying, you know, is this good? Is this valid? You know, where are the mistakes in this? And I think that we're increasingly going to face that, right? Because everybody's advertising, you know, replace your agency for free.

you know, with all these AI tools. So how do we actually rise above that and, and not only create like this high touch experience, but really become this trusted advisor and, really not be seen as that vendor.

Taylor (14:42.156)

Yeah, I mean, it's we're we're in it right now, right? We're we're in the blender trying to figure out how things are going to shake out. I think the biggest thing that I see, especially coming from the account management side of things, people are going to crave this human experience more and more and more, but they're going to expect efficiency. They're going to expect more for their money. They're going to expect better results.

John Jantsch (14:45.738)

Yeah.

Taylor (15:10.326)

So I think even though we see all this noise about AI replacing my agency, I think that's not going to happen. I think it's just changing our expectations when we work with clients. And so I think the value is still there. I think we just need to shift to more really consultative, making sure that clients feel heard, they feel understood, and that we're a partner versus just somebody running their ads. And I think the...

the expectations of our clients are going to continue to evolve in the sense where they're going to demand us to take it all off their plate. Like what business owner wants to stay on ChatGBT all day, trying to figure out marketing, even if it's through ChatGBT. They don't have the time or energy or expertise to do that. So it's just really making sure that they understand the value of what you're doing.

John Jantsch (15:54.112)

They don't at all. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:05.024)

And trust me, we don't want a client that wants to be on chat GPT all day. So what led you to kind of choose, I mean, you're in the agency space, but in kind of a narrow lane in the agency space, what made you decide to go there instead of the broader kind of agency?

Taylor (16:08.499)

No, we do not. No, we do not.

Taylor (16:22.924)

Yeah, really kind of boring, but it was just what I loved. I loved account management and I didn't love what I thought running an agency previously because I started running my own small agency and then pivoted into just doing account management. I think as that started, I started to realize that there was this blue ocean. There was this huge need in our industry for great account managers and done differently because we are fractional account managers.

John Jantsch (16:43.178)

Hmm.

Taylor (16:52.674)

what everyone else is doing in the industry is hiring full-time people. And so we were just doing things differently. And so as the business started to grow, I realized there was this, yeah, this huge opportunity to specialize and to create something really awesome and to be known for that. Being a general agency, just couldn't, I couldn't get excited about it. So yeah, it just kind of took off. And once I saw some traction and we started to get the demand,

John Jantsch (16:55.988)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (17:14.992)

A.S.

Taylor (17:22.786)

We just really went all in on the processes. Like you said, John, it was like where I spent all my time was like operationalizing everything from hiring to training to onboarding, offboarding, sales, everything was systematized and it paid off. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:37.566)

Yeah. So, so talk to me a little bit about the fractional approach. We, we have gone both ways. mean, we, we actually provide fractional CMO services and we teach people how to do that. sometimes the disconnect is, you know, there, there's a lot of like, yeah, fractional, can save money. It'll be, you know, I don't need a full-time person, but you know, a lot of ways they still want a full-time person, right? They still want you in all their silly meetings, that, that, they have. So you do have to, obviously that's one of the

beauties of having a scope and a methodology. like, here's what I do. Here's what you get as opposed to what do need, right? But on the fractional account managers, do you find that there's a challenge in somebody being there fractionally or maybe doing a couple clients is really not going to be as motivated to be a team player, to want to do all the sort team building that really helps an agency. How do you kind of straddle that?

you know, that divide, especially since we're all distributed these days.

Taylor (18:37.836)

Yeah. Yeah. I would say the, when I started the business, was an, I was the account manager at DOT. So naturally I got to choose how I wanted it to look and feel. And for me, for me to be motivated working inside of these agencies, I needed to be a part of the team and a part of the culture. So early on I was going to the team events. I was flying in for the weekend. was doing the team calls and the cocktail hour and

John Jantsch (19:07.124)

Yes.

Taylor (19:07.502)

That really made me feel like a part of the team and it made me stick around for a really long time working in these agencies. And so as soon as we started to hire account managers and duplicate this model, we made sure that that was the expectation. We want these account managers to feel like a full-time team member. We want them in your Slack, in everything as if you hired them full-time. We want them to feel like that, not just for you, but for our account managers as well. want them to feel a part of the team.

we approached it very much so like, yes, we're fractional, but it feels full time because that's how I think it should be. Sure.

John Jantsch (19:45.504)

Okay, I'm going to throw you a softball. Are you a sports analogy person? Okay, but you get it, right? It's a bigger ball than a little ball. It's easier to hit, okay? So I can hire somebody for $20 an hour in the Philippines. Why don't I just do that?

Taylor (19:51.043)

I'm not, but I'll take it. Yeah.

Taylor (20:07.628)

Yeah, you definitely can. But the majority of the agencies we work with are looking for specialists. They're looking for people who they don't have to manage, they don't have to train, they don't have to worry if they know what they're doing. They want somebody ready to go. So essentially they need somebody to parachute in and save all their problems, fix the processes, keep their clients happy, and continue to grow and scale from there. So

John Jantsch (20:10.528)

You

Taylor (20:36.012)

We really approach ourselves as specialists. This is the last time you're ever gonna have to go and look for an account management solution because you're covered when you work with us.

John Jantsch (20:47.69)

So I'm curious, your business was acquired fairly recently. Looking back, is there a part of your company that you think made it more attractive? mean, revenue is always going to be a piece of it, but was there anything that you think made it more attractive to a buyer than the typical business?

Taylor (21:06.286)

A big piece was that I was removed from the day-to-day operations. Yeah, that was definitely attractive from a risk perspective too. You know, they didn't have to worry. Exactly, there you go. And then the second thing was specialized. So, you know, they were buying something that was very specific and had a very specific scope process, everything like

John Jantsch (21:09.908)

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:17.79)

Like any dummy can run this business now, right?

John Jantsch (21:33.633)

And you're still involved in the business, though. Yeah, that was just part of the deal.

Taylor (21:37.078)

I am, I'm not involved. Yeah, I didn't have to stay on to be honest. It wasn't a requirement. I'm not involved in any of the operations. So you won't see me on a team call unless it's like high level. I'm more so a consultant strategist, you know, and I really wanna stay around and see.

John Jantsch (21:43.32)

okay.

John Jantsch (21:49.61)

Awesome. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Taylor (22:02.388)

see the growth in DOT and also E2M, the company who bought us. I absolutely love them, what they're doing. So yeah, I'm excited to be a part of kind of this bigger picture now. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:11.186)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there anywhere you'd invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work?

Taylor (22:18.848)

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn all the time. So feel free to add me on LinkedIn and connect or check out our website dot and company dot co.

John Jantsch (22:27.88)

Awesome. again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we'll run into you soon out there on the road.

Taylor (22:34.093)

We will. Thanks, John.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/OY9g1Xs
via IFTTT