The Business Case for Play at Work

The Business Case for Play at Work written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Overview

What if play isn’t a distraction from meaningful work, but the very thing that makes it better? In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with entrepreneur and Refinery29 co-founder Piera Gelardi to explore how a playful mindset can unlock creativity, strengthen relationships, and drive innovation in business and life.

Drawing from her new book The Playful Way, Gelardi explains why play is not something we earn after work, but a powerful tool that enhances how we work. From neuroscience insights to real-world business applications, this conversation reframes play as a strategic advantage rather than a frivolous activity.

Guest Bio

Piera Gelardi is an entrepreneur, speaker, and co-founder of Refinery29, a global media company focused on modern women’s lives across fashion, wellness, and culture. She helped grow the company from a small startup into a global brand with over $100M in revenue and 500+ employees. Gelardi is also the author of The Playful Way, where she explores how play can transform creativity, leadership, and resilience.

Key Takeaways

1. Play is a Performance Enhancer, Not a Reward
   Play isn’t something you earn after work. It is a mindset that improves creativity, problem solving, and relationships while you work.
2. Play Deprivation Has Real Consequences
   A lack of play leads to reduced resilience, limited perspective, and decreased intrinsic motivation, making work feel rigid and uninspiring.
3. Play Unlocks Innovation Through Divergent Thinking
   A playful mindset allows people to explore multiple possibilities instead of defaulting to safe, repetitive solutions.
4. There Are Multiple “Play Personalities”
   Play is not just humor or goofiness. It includes curiosity, imagination, movement, and visionary thinking, each valuable in different contexts.
5. The Playful Way vs. The Pressured Way
   Pressured means rigid, outcome focused, and driven by fear of failure.
   Playful means open, experimental, resilient, and idea generating.
6. Small Moments of Play Beat Forced Fun
   Integrating play into everyday work, not one off activities, builds authentic culture and engagement.
7. Experimentation is Play in Action
   Reframing initiatives as experiments lowers risk perception and encourages innovation, which is key to marketing and growth.
8. Leadership Sets the Tone for Play
   Leaders must model vulnerability and playfulness to create psychological safety for teams.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

• 00:01 – The Big Idea
  Why play might be the missing ingredient in meaningful work and creativity.
• 01:30 – A Playful Upbringing
  How Gelardi’s early life shaped her belief that play and productivity can coexist.
• 02:54 – The Science of Play
  Research on play deprivation and how play rewires the brain for growth and resilience.
• 04:32 – The Misconception of Play at Work
  Why play gets dismissed and how different forms of play show up in business.
• 06:57 – Innovation Through Play
  How a playful mindset leads to breakthrough ideas instead of recycled thinking.
• 09:32 – Practical Play Exercises
  Simple tools like shake breaks and curiosity questions to unlock team creativity.
• 12:28 – The Refinery29 Story
  From startup blog to global media brand and how experimentation fueled growth.
• 14:14 – Avoiding Forced Fun Culture
  Why play must be integrated into daily work, not treated as a gimmick.
• 16:56 – Play in Marketing
  How experimentation and low risk testing led to the viral success of 29 Rooms.
• 19:50 – Reconnecting With Play as Adults
  Why we lose playfulness and how to rediscover it through small actions.

Memorable Quotes

“Play is not the opposite of seriousness. It is what makes seriousness bearable.”

“When we think of something as an experiment, it stops feeling so high stakes, and that is when creativity opens up.”

“Playfulness creates the most innovative ideas, the best relationships, and the resilience to work through problems.”

Where to Learn More

• Book: The Playful Way available at major booksellers
• Website: pieragelardi.com
• Instagram and Substack: @pieraluisa

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.184)

What if the very thing most adults dismiss as frivolous is actually the key to better ideas, deeper connection and more resilient work? Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Piera Ghilardi. You know, I'm going to do that over again because I practiced that and I got it wrong. So yeah, Ghilardi, like gelato or something.

Piera Gelardi (00:23.822)

It's like hair gel, it's gel already. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, like gelato, exactly.

John Jantsch (00:31.636)

Yeah. Okay. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz and my guest today is Piera Jalardi. She's an entrepreneur, speaker and co-founder of Refinery29, whose new book, The Playful Way, argues that play is not a distraction from meaningful work and life, but a practical mindset that can help us navigate creativity, change, relationships, and even adversity.

with more curiosity and possibilities. So, Piero, welcome to the show.

Piera Gelardi (01:03.886)

Thanks for having me. Let's play.

John Jantsch (01:05.546)

So I'm sure one of the first questions that you get asked all the time is, because so many of us, especially people of my generation, it's like, you didn't get to play it till you got your homework done. And so how, or when for you, I should actually ask it that way. Cause you argue that it's not something that we earn, that it's actually something that enhances how we work. When did that become true for you?

Piera Gelardi (01:30.776)

So I was fortunate to grow up in a really playful family and to have parents who were playful while they navigated growing businesses, having families, dealing with illness and loss. And so I got to see how playfulness could, and the curiosity and creativity that comes with playfulness could actually weave into every aspect of our life. So playfulness was something that was sort of baked into me. But then of course, like most adults, I rubbed up against

know, teachers that wanted me to do things a certain, you know, straight line way, wanted me to, to, you know, sit still and go from point A to point B. I went into workplaces that also expected a certain degree of seriousness and, you know, seriousness in terms of rigidity. And so I did definitely rubbed up against places that, you know, told me that play and playfulness was something frivolous with something that we do, you know, after our homework is done, after our hard work is done.

But what I found in my life and in my work was that integrating play created the best results. It created the most innovative ideas, the best relationships, and the most resilience for me to work through the problems that came up.

John Jantsch (02:44.028)

Is, I believe you a hundred percent and totally agree with it. Is there any research that you've done or that you've studied that kind of backs this up scientifically as well?

Piera Gelardi (02:54.466)

Yeah, there's a lot of research about the power of play. also there's research about play deprivation, which is something that I experienced in a period of work where I was trying to present in a serious way. So I packed up my playfulness and tried to kind of show up in a way that was zipped up in my serious suit, basically. And

Play deprivation leads to us being less resilient, having less of a solutions minded attitude, having less of a big perspective on what there is in life. And so we end up not having that intrinsic motivation that helps us to drive us forward, that helps us to feel, to find joy and excitement in our day to day, to find connection with each other. There's also a lot of science also around like the neuroscience of.

sort of that playful experimental mindset and how when we try something new, you know, these neural pathways are reshaping our brain. So when we're in that play state, we're in a much more open-minded experimental framework where we can actually learn and grow versus getting really stuck and being set back by failure, which is when we're in that perfectionistic, serious mindset, we're trying to control the outcome. We're trying to, you know,

get it exactly right, we tend to be less open-minded, we tend to not be able to deal with the change, the uncertainty, the setbacks in the same sort of pliable, resilient way that we can when we're in that playful mindset.

John Jantsch (04:32.893)

So, I think a lot of business owners, we've come a long way, I think a lot of business owners get the idea of doing creative exercises, kind of opens up dialogue and different things. But when you use the word play, do you sometimes get pushback because people have a bias about, that's goofing around, that's not serious, that's not who we are? mean, so does the word play itself actually cause some issues for you?

Piera Gelardi (04:57.676)

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of anti-play sentiment because we sort of associate play with one mode of play, but there's a lot of ways to be playful. So we sort of think of, and in the book I have these eight archetypes of play. So I think the one that people most associate with play is the joyful gesture, right? That's like the class clown. That's the one that, you know, making things light, that's bringing humor.

John Jantsch (05:00.661)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (05:22.594)

And that person actually can be so powerful in diffusing tension and helping to relieve stress and helping us to laugh so that we can actually get to a solution faster. But they're definitely the one that people feel is, I think it's the most controversial in the workplace. And though they really are powerful and there's also a lot of research about the power of humor in problem solving, in stress relief.

in relationship building. But there's so but there's that's only one way of being playful, right? That being humorous, being light, there's, you know, curiosity is a huge element of play. So there's the curious question that someone that asks a lot of questions that's intellectually going down these rabbit holes, and they're really powerful to have in the workplace, because they help you to think differently by introducing, you know, introducing questions and new ways of thinking.

There is the visionary dreamer. That's the person that is, you know, we might think of them as having their head in the clouds, right? They're often the negative side as they're seen as the dreamer, the unrealistic one, but they're also the one that's looking beyond what is immediately in front of us. They're not trying to just replicate the same thing over and over again. They're really opening up possibility in new ways. So there are lot of different ways to be playful. And so I think

One thing that I'm trying to do is educate people about these different modes of play so that we can understand how to value them and how to bring them into the workplace in different ways.

John Jantsch (06:57.184)

So I imagine a lot of people, one of the use cases a lot of people probably can relate to is the idea of team building. You there's nothing sort of, you let your guard down, you're vulnerable, you do something that's not you necessarily, you don't think it's you and team building. But talk to me a little bit about innovation because I'm guessing that that's a place where this really shines as well because, know, innovation takes meaning.

You can't fail. can't make a mistake. And you know, I think that that's probably inherent in some play, isn't it?

Piera Gelardi (07:32.172)

Yeah. So I think of it sort of, there's the pressured way and there's the playful way. And the pressured way is when we're trying to control the outcome. We are rigid. We might feel like tight in our body. and that is often like when we're really zipped up tight in our serious suit and we're very, very afraid of failure. the playful way is when we have that curiosity to us, when we're looking at a problem from multiple different angles.

John Jantsch (07:36.746)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (08:01.218)

we're floating unexpected ideas. And it allows us to really find these innovative ways to move forward. And so, yeah, play is the, mean, the most effective brands and companies integrate some sort of play into what they do. The companies that are the most innovative know that that's how you create experiences that people feel. That's how you go outside of the cookie cutter idea.

Often when we go in that pressured way, we're just replicating past, you know, past success or replic or copying other people's formats. We're not creating something new. And when you think about a kid, right, like they're looking at a cardboard box and they're seeing that it can be a pirate ship. can be, you know, it can be a spaceship. It's a closet. It's all these different things. And that's divergent thinking. And of course that's, you know, we might not think that's a very practical example in the workplace, but

If you're looking at a problem, you want someone that can think about all the different ways you could go about it. And so what play does is it opens up our minds to that divergent thinking. And that's where the big solutions, the big unlocks come from.

John Jantsch (09:12.118)

So I imagine, I'm just guessing, that you have a series of exercises that you could bring to people and say, OK, for the next 10 minutes, we're going to do X, Y, and Z. Can you showcase a couple of things that you find to be really effective at getting people to do whatever behavior it is the company's trying to support?

Piera Gelardi (09:32.662)

Yeah. So a couple of really simple ones, you know, that I, I did a lot at Refinery29 were, one is actually a physical shake break. which, you know, can be controversial in the workplace because people feel really self-conscious and, know, it can be hard to get people to move, but honestly, I found it to be so effective because so often you're going into a meeting, right? And you're holding onto whatever frustrating conversation you had, or you're still thinking about.

you know, how you're going to deal with the thing on your to-do list. Also, there can be a power dynamic, like often when people were coming into my office, have a meeting with me, you know, I'm the boss, they're feeling, you know, nervous about like, are they going to say the right thing? And so as the leader, I think it's really important to be the one that's making a fool of yourself to a certain extent, you know, doesn't have to be huge, but you, yeah, you need to be vulnerable. You need to be the one that shows that it's okay to play.

John Jantsch (10:25.398)

Lead by example.

Piera Gelardi (10:33.541)

because that's the only way to get people to do it. I would, when people would come into my office, I would say, okay, we're gonna do a 30 second shake break. I would do this improv exercise called crazy eights where you shake, you count down from eight, like shaking your one arm, the other arm, one arm, one leg, the other leg. And what would happen is, know, it was like I'm...

I'm being silly, so then everyone else is following suit. And at the end, no one's cool. No one is serious. And we all kind of have let our guard down. It evens the playing field. It opens us up. It allows us to create a certain space where ideas can flow a little bit more easily. I'm also a big fan of just simple curiosity questions. So these can be, you know, these can be.

really silly and just unexpected or they can you know, they can be on topic but introducing questions that force people to You know think in a new way I think is a really simple and sort of low stakes way to bring play in Another one is imagination. So a question I loved to float to my team was what would what would need to be true for this to happen?

Because so often we're sort of stuck on a problem. We're stuck on the old ways of doing things. We're stuck on the obstacles. So sometimes, yeah, why it won't work. So sometimes asking a question like that, like what would need to be true in order for us to do this is a great way to open up that possibility, that possibility thinking.

John Jantsch (11:58.186)

Yeah, right. Why it won't work.

John Jantsch (12:17.12)

Talk to me a little bit about Refinery29. I know the book is kind of drawn from some of your experiences there, but talk a little bit about what Refinery29 does.

Piera Gelardi (12:28.194)

Yeah, so Refinery29 is a global media company focused on 360 degrees of a woman's life. So everything from health and wellness to beauty, fashion. we started as a, we basically essentially started as a blog and we grew into a company that was doing experience, these huge experiential events across the US and internationally doing video film.

John Jantsch (12:39.99)

Mmm.

Piera Gelardi (12:56.942)

all kinds of different media outlets. So yeah, it started, you know, it started, I started it when I was 24 and it was this small niche thing and it grew into a company that had a hundred million dollars in revenue and 500 employees globally.

John Jantsch (13:00.67)

And so.

John Jantsch (13:15.274)

So did some of the work that shows up in the book, did it come from those experiences and from how you kept those playful and energetic?

Piera Gelardi (13:25.612)

Yeah, so the book is full of stories from a lot of different moments in my life. But some of the ones are from my time at Refinery29, the problems that we solved and the innovation that we unlocked through bringing play into the workplace.

John Jantsch (13:44.032)

So I'm sure there's a fine line. mean, people may listen to this, read the book and go, you're right, we need to bring more play in. How do you make it part of the culture and not a gimmick? We've all seen that. The CEO goes off to a conference and listens to a workshop and the next thing you know, for five minutes we're doing this now. So how do you bring it in as something?

that has value, that's not forced, that's not gimmicky, not performative.

Piera Gelardi (14:14.99)

Yeah, that's so critical. think so often companies when they want to integrate play, they sort of do that forced fun. The moment that employees feel is forced fun, right? And it's a one-off thing. In the book, I really talk about how play is something, you we think of play as sort of this time out or this thing that we do as a reward for hard work, but play is the most effective when it is integrated into the day-to-day in small moments. So I think...

One is understanding the different modes of play and starting to understand within your team what the different archetypes of play that people are so that you can really leverage those and you can understand, you know, what is going to light those, light those people up. you know, a curious questor who's, who's following those intellectual threads and curiosity is going to be, you know, going to light up from something really different from a mover and shaker that's more someone who finds

who finds play in their physical body through movement. So there's very different modes of play. So I think the first thing is understanding within the team, what are the different play strengths that people have? What are the powers of play that you have that you're working with? The next is to, I do this thing called plork, which is how do we fuse play and work in small moments? So that can be really small. can be, you know,

John Jantsch (15:15.595)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:35.722)

Mm.

Piera Gelardi (15:41.55)

introducing a curiosity question at the beginning of a meeting. can be renaming meeting invites with something that's a little bit more whimsical. So it doesn't feel like an anxiety attack when you see your calendar. It's these little moments that you commit to and you brainstorm as a team. So you think about, okay, once you understand these powers of play that the team has, how can you integrate those day to day in small ways?

John Jantsch (15:52.352)

Right.

Thank

Piera Gelardi (16:11.554)

what are those play plus work moments that become part of the culture so that you are really integrating it and finding those moments of connection, creativity, curiosity in the day to day versus just putting a play bandaid on like at that one offset.

John Jantsch (16:29.352)

Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't really thought of people having play personalities, but it sounds like that's a bit what you're describing. So we've talked mostly about internal team and culture. How could people use this in a marketing sense? So in other words, be more playful in their public, you know, what they're putting out there to be perceived as, you know, a fun and playful company.

Piera Gelardi (16:34.861)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (16:56.002)

Yeah, I think in terms of bringing it into a marketing context, it's really about how can we do something different? How can we bring an experimental mindset to how we market? I tend to find that when we think of things as an experiment, and again, there's this neuroscience around this, but when we think of something as an experiment, we open up a lot more possibility and we stop.

John Jantsch (17:09.206)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (17:24.13)

having it stops feeling so high stakes that we can't fail that we can't try new things. So I think one thing is, you know, thinking about what are the experiments that we want to run here? What's something that would be interesting to try? You know, can we try it in a can we try it in a small way? And then build off of that. That was something we did a lot of refinery. We were constantly experimenting. So we'd say

You know, for example, we did this huge experiential event called 29 rooms that went to seven cities, hundreds of thousands of people came through. but it started from just one event where we said, you know, we're noticing this behavior of how people are using Instagram. And so why don't we do, why don't we do something in our photo studio at the office where we invite photographers to come in, we give them all kinds of props, access to models and access to clothes and let them, you know,

express their creativity and tag us. And so that was the experiment, was just doing that. So it was a very low stakes, low cost experiment. And we saw this huge Instagram sharing that came from this one office event. And so then we said, okay, do we do that again and make it a little bit bigger? So then we did it in partnership with.

museum in New York, we brought in a fashion brand to provide the looks and we tried it again and we again saw this huge like exponential return from it. And then, you know, then it was like the next piece, okay, like let's pop up an event. It was a smaller scale event. Again, saw huge success. And so that was when we decided to take the gamble and put on this huge, this huge event where we brought in brands, celebrities, you know, it was like, and that that became something that was

huge, we were hugely known for and that became really copied. was on every, you know, every brand was referencing it and trying to replicate the 29 rooms, you know, effect. So, but it came from that experimental mindset of saying, okay, what if we tried this and what's the smallest, what's the smallest way we can try it within our resources to see if this has legs.

John Jantsch (19:18.901)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:31.638)

All right, now that you've written the book and it's, upon when people are listening to this, it's going to be out there for public consumption. Is there anything that you hope, especially adults, relearn about themselves by considering this topic?

Piera Gelardi (19:50.306)

Yeah, I think in adulthood, through the course of having the strict teacher that tells you to sit still, having the boss that shuts down your humorous aside, there's through feeling the weight of responsibility and thinking that play is antithetical to being the responsible adult. There's all these moments where we start to shut down our playfulness. And as a result, we lose that curiosity.

we lose that resilience and we lose the flexibility that play brings into our lives. And that makes us lose touch with ourselves really. It makes us like lose touch with our true essence. when we think about our relationships too, right? Like what are the things that you remember the most about your friends, your family? It's often these inside jokes, these silly moments, these playful pieces.

And so when we start to become that very serious adult, we start to shut down what really makes us authentic, what makes us connect authentically and what makes us come alive. So, you know, in adulthood, starting to reconnect with that playful spirit, you know, even just in small ways, I tell people, go back to the lost and found. Like think about your childhood and what made you lose track of the hours, what completely immersed you.

and see if there's something in there that you want to re-explore. So, you know, maybe it was dancing when you were a kid and you want to like think about going to a dance class again, or maybe it was beach combing and you were just like, loved looking at, you know, looking for sea glass on the beach. You know, is there, do you want to go for a walk in your neighborhood and see if you can, you know, turn it into a wonder wander and find, you know, these moments of delight. So re-engaging, like starting in small ways, but just.

being open to the fact that playfulness is going to unlock a lot of richness and joy and aliveness in your life. So it's really worthwhile to pursue it. Play is not the opposite of seriousness. It's what makes seriousness bearable. It's what makes you find joy in the day to day and the mundane.

John Jantsch (22:09.178)

Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work? Find out where they can pick up a copy of the book.

Piera Gelardi (22:19.522)

Yeah, so they can pick up the book, The Playful Way. It's at all major booksellers starting April 7th. And you can find me on Instagram and Stub Stack at Pierrealuisa and my website, pieragillardi.com.

John Jantsch (22:33.878)

Awesome. Well, again, Pierre, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we're running into you one of these days out there on the road.

Piera Gelardi (22:38.646)

Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for playing.

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What Most Businesses Get Wrong About Marketing

What Most Businesses Get Wrong About Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this solo episode, John Jantsch revisits a core principle he has championed for years:
strategy must come before tactics. Despite the explosion of marketing channels, tools,
and now AI, most businesses are not lacking activity. They are lacking clarity.

John breaks down why inconsistent messaging, misaligned teams, and scattered priorities
are symptoms of a missing strategic foundation. He shares insights from working with
hundreds of businesses that achieved significant growth only after narrowing their focus,
defining their ideal customer, and building a systemized marketing approach.

He also introduces a new evolution of his “Strategy First” methodology, a compressed,
high-impact one-day strategic experience designed to align teams, clarify positioning,
and create a practical 90-day roadmap for growth.

Guest Bio

John Jantsch is a marketing strategist, speaker, and bestselling author
of multiple books including Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine,
and Marketing Rebellion. He is the founder of the Duct Tape Marketing system,
which has been licensed by over 400 agencies worldwide. Jantsch is widely recognized for
his practical, systems-based approach to small business marketing and his emphasis on
strategy before tactics.

Key Takeaways

1. Activity Is Not the Problem, Clarity Is

Most businesses are overwhelmed with marketing options but lack a clear strategy.
More effort without direction leads to wasted time and inconsistent results.

2. Strategy Enables You to Do Less, Better

A strong strategic foundation helps eliminate unnecessary tactics and focus only on
what drives meaningful growth.

3. Ideal Customer Definition Is Critical

Growth accelerates when businesses clearly define who they serve and, just as importantly,
who they do not serve.

4. Lack of Strategy Leads to Misalignment

Teams, vendors, and departments often operate in silos, creating inefficiencies and
diluted messaging.

5. Differentiation Comes From Strategic Clarity

Without a clear strategy, businesses struggle to communicate what makes them unique
and why customers should choose them.

6. AI Has Increased Complexity, Not Reduced It

While AI promises efficiency, many businesses are working harder trying to manage
new tools without a guiding strategy.

7. Strategy Creates Internal Alignment and Reduces Stress

Clarity around direction and priorities brings relief to business owners and helps
teams operate more cohesively.

8. A Compressed Strategy Process Can Be More Effective

Condensing strategy into a focused, one-day experience eliminates delays, overthinking,
and miscommunication.

9. Shared Experience Drives Better Execution

Bringing the entire team into the strategy process ensures alignment, shared language,
and stronger buy-in.

10. A 90-Day Roadmap Turns Strategy Into Action

Effective strategy is not theoretical. It results in a clear, actionable plan for the
immediate future.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

• 00:01 – Introduction to a Solo Strategy Discussion
• 01:00 – The Core Problem: Too Much Activity, Not Enough Clarity
• 02:20 – The Hidden Cost of Misalignment
• 03:00 – Real Results From Strategy-First Businesses
• 03:40 – The Myth of “Everyone Is My Customer”
• 04:40 – The Traditional Strategy Process (30-45 Days)
• 06:00 – Introducing Strategy First in One Day
• 07:05 – The Power of Team Alignment in One Room
• 08:00 – What the One-Day Strategy Experience Includes
• 09:00 – Immediate Benefits: Clarity, Alignment, and Focus
• 10:00 – Who This Is For (and Who It’s Not)
• 10:45 – The Real Growth Problem: Lack of Shared Strategy
• 11:00 – Call to Action: Explore Strategy First

Memorable Quotes

“Nobody’s short on marketing activity. The real challenge is they’re short on clarity.”

“If your growth feels messy, the problem usually isn’t effort. It’s the absence of a shared strategy.”

 

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.582)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and another solo show. I'm just going to ramble at you for a bit. Again, I'd love to hear your feedback. I get feedback from lot of folks that they enjoy these shows where I just kind of share some things that I have in mind. I'm just going to start off with no shocker here. I'm going to talk about strategy.

Talk about strategy before tactics. I'm going to talk about marketing as a system. These are things that if you've been listening for, I don't know, even a couple of weeks, but let alone a couple of years, you have heard me say repeatedly something I've written about in pretty much every one of my books. And it's a challenge or a problem that I haven't cracked yet. I haven't gotten the entire world, even the marketing world, to really come fully on board. But I will tell you this.

I've worked with hundreds now of business owners and I have seen the impact when they will step back and look at their business from a strategic point of view and certainly their marketing from a strategic point of view and really proceed to develop the tactics that they are going to develop around that strategy first. Nobody's short on marketing activity. I mean, there's more to do from a marketing standpoint. There seems to be.

more every day, that we can get into more channels, more platforms, more tactics that we can get into every day. So that's not really the challenge. The real challenge is that they're short on the clarity that actually might let them do less. Right. I mean, they're doing a lot of things. Maybe you're doing a lot of things that feel like marketing or under the heading of marketing. but those things don't always connect. so.

My experience is there's a great deal of inconsistent messaging, shifting priorities, right? It's like, well, let's try this this month. Teams, vendors, not allowed, not aligned, I'm sorry. I've come into a lot of organizations. have five, six people, there are five, six companies even doing stuff, but they're not actually even coordinating with each other, which I certainly find rather difficult to imagine. Money gets wasted, time gets wasted. You burn your people out.

John Jantsch (02:20.718)

Let's face it, the promise of AI is it was supposed to automate all this stuff. And I keep talking to people to say they're working harder because they're now trying to figure out all this new stuff. so growth gets really harder to do when we're really just, it's like we're running on the hamster wheel. I've said I've worked with hundreds of businesses over the years and I have many, many examples of case studies where we have doubled, tripled quad.

quadrupled. We'd work with them for years and we've double tripled, quadrupled their business. But it really started with a pretty significant change. We did strategy first. We helped them identify who was an ideal client, who is an ideal client for the business. And maybe more importantly, who's not. Because most businesses are content to say, hey, I do X service, X product, and anybody who has money is my ideal client. And not only is that

inaccurate, it's really costing a lot of growth because we are accepting or chasing the wrong clients. We're not actually being very narrow in our messaging to say, here's who we can help and here's the value we deliver to help those folks. So it really creates a lot of lost opportunity, even if you feel like, well, you we got a client out of it. It wasn't the right client or it was a not a profitable engagement. Certainly that happens all the time.

Probably the biggest thing that I find from no strategy is there's no real point of differentiation. There's no message that clearly communicates to somebody. Here's what we do and we do it better than anyone else. In fact, we've got proof that we do that thing better than anyone else that ever thought about. And when you get that, when you clarify that message, says, here's who we're for. And your ideal client reads that message and says,

Finally, you're talking about me, aren't you? As I said, this is something that we have done for many, many years. It's not new. I mean, it's continued to evolve, but it's continued to be something that we've licensed now to well over 400 agencies and consultancies who also get the power of this systemized approach that we've been able to create to develop strategy. But today I want to tell you about a new way that we are going to deliver it. And this may have some

John Jantsch (04:40.174)

some appeal. the past, ideally it took 30 to 45 days, quite frankly, to do this because we do a lot of in-depth research. We actually interview your clients as part of it and really then develop the messaging, develop the ICP, develop the customer journey, develop the priorities that are going to be really the next 90 days worth of work to kind of restructure the foundation and really get the business

pointed in the right direction. while businesses that understand the idea of investing in strategy sometimes would grumble about 30 to 45 days, it's like, why can't we do it now? But once they were through the process, there's no question the value that they received and they gush about the value they received. They gush about, it's not just, I mean, in 30 to 45 days of doing strategy first, all of sudden the phone's not ringing.

off the hook now with new business, but all of a the team has some clarity. Certainly the founder and the owner has some clarity about, here's why things haven't been working. Here's why we're spinning our wheels. Here's how we have to actually get very clear about who we serve and who we don't serve. that frankly, just having that has a tremendous amount of value.

frankly relieves a ton of stress for the business owner. But what we decided is, or asked ourself or challenged ourselves is, how can we do that faster? How could we actually deliver strategy first in a day? That is something that I'm introducing today. That is something we're going to lean in very heavily because I believe there are some distinct advantages to actually compressing

that time. have the ability, let's face it, we have the ability with a lot of the AI tools that we've mastered to actually do the research, to actually do the analysis in a way that allows us to do this in a much faster timeframe. But here's probably the biggest, I think, advantage to doing this. Quite often we would do this over a series of meetings that were required. Two weeks maybe would go between those meetings and quite often

John Jantsch (07:05.646)

It would really just be the founder. But imagine if we could come into your business, especially if you have a team, and we could bring everybody that you thought needed to be in that room, in that room for an entire focused day. Now we will certainly do a lot of work on the front end. We're not just going to show up and say, tell me about your business. We are going to do a lot of

work on the front end, the research that we can do on your industry and on your specific business and what we see out there that you've been doing in marketing already. But then we are going to spend a very focused day with you and your team creating what I would say is as much an experience as it is a strategic.

exercise or strategic engagement. This is not a workshop, this is not consulting. This is actually with your team building the components that we know will really kind of launch your business or launch your marketing in a much more effective way. So as I said, we do tons of prep ahead of time to get the context. And then we need all of your key decision makers or frankly, people that are doing stuff on behalf of your business in the name of marketing.

to be in the room, people that you wanna level up, people that you wanna actually experience as a group, what it's like or what it means to develop marketing strategy and to have the discussion around that. frankly, it's going to be as much a learning experience for them as it will be a deliverable for the business itself. So we're gonna identify where there's friction, we're gonna identify

the business objectives that you need to go, we're going to define that ideal customer and customer journey. We're going to tighten your positioning. We're going to actually create and sharpen messaging and really set the priorities for the next quarter or next two quarters as a big part of this. thing, some of the other advantages of have the output in this fashion in one focused day is that yes, you're going to get a clear strategic foundation. You're going to actually understand your business

John Jantsch (09:19.384)

probably better than you ever have. You're going to have a shared language. Some of the tools that we're going to give you and in part during this are going to be tools that you'll now be able to continue to work with with your team. And it won't just be, you went off to another thing and read a book and brought it back to the business. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And you're going to have a roadmap, a very practical roadmap in the short term for the next 90 days. And I think that this focus

The lack of delay, the lack of overthinking, mean, getting people aligned, I think it's going to have tremendous value. Now, this won't be for everybody. Ideally, is strategy in this fashion actually works better for a business in a one to $25 million range, for example. I mean, you've got traction, but you've also got growing complexity. And so it's time to professionalize your marketing in a way.

You know, the ad hoc marketing is just not going to really cut it anymore. Maybe you've already started to feel that. And you've got teams or people or even outside vendors that really need more alignment instead of more activity necessarily.

If your growth feels messy, the problem may not be effort. Usually isn't actually effort. In fact, you're probably working harder than ever. It's the absence of a shared strategy inside the business. And that's really what Strategy First was completely designed to solve. And Strategy First today, I believe solves that in a very unique kind of shared experience way. So.

If you want to learn more about this, if this kind of lights you up a little bit, we have a page. You can go read all about the very specifics. It's just dtm.world slash one day, all one word, one day. DTM is like duct tape marketing. So it's dtm.world slash one day. Love to come to your business, learn about how we can build this for you and really kind of have your marketing take off, not.

John Jantsch (11:29.986)

just this quarter, but really in a one day experience. So take care. Thanks for tuning in and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

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Why Growth Stalls After Early Success

Why Growth Stalls After Early Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

In this solo episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch explores why capable, experienced founders repeatedly hit the same growth ceiling. He unpacks the hidden leadership patterns, behaviors, and internal bottlenecks that stall progress even when strong strategies are in place.

Episode Overview

John Jantsch takes a deeper look at one of the biggest reasons businesses stop growing: the founder becomes the bottleneck. While many organizations invest in strategy, tactics, and better marketing systems, real transformation often fails to stick because the founder’s mindset and leadership habits have not evolved.

In response, John introduces a new facilitated experience called Founder’s Day, designed to help business owners identify the assumptions, fears, and recurring behaviors that are limiting growth. This episode is a call for honest reflection and leadership change as the true starting point for organizational transformation.

About John Jantsch

John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker, and bestselling author of Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, Duct Tape Selling, and Marketing Rebellion. He is the founder of Duct Tape Marketing and creator of the Marketing Operating System, helping small businesses and agencies build practical, effective strategies for long-term growth.

Key Takeaways

1. Strategy alone is not enough.Even the best marketing strategy can stall if the founder’s leadership style and decision-making patterns remain unchanged.
2. Founders are often the bottleneck.Overinvolvement, inconsistent delegation, and unclear accountability can keep teams from taking ownership.
3. Growth ceilings are often self-created.Businesses frequently plateau because founders repeat the same patterns that helped them succeed early on.
4. What got you here will not get you there.Reaching the next level of growth requires a different mindset, different leadership behaviors, and new systems.
5. Founder’s Day is built for transformation.This new facilitated workshop helps founders surface the internal constraints holding back the business.
6. Business goals must come first.Before building a strategy, companies need clarity on what the organization actually wants to achieve.
7. The future of agencies is transformation.Agencies and consultants that move beyond selling tactics and start delivering transformation will stay more relevant.
8. AI cannot replace a real system.AI can support execution, but it cannot replace a strategic framework like a marketing operating system.

Great Moments

• 00:01 – John introduces the episode and asks why smart businesses keep hitting the same ceiling
• 01:00 – Why better strategy alone does not always create better results
• 02:11 – The signs that a founder may be the bottleneck
• 03:00 – The cost of poor alignment and stalled execution
• 04:00 – Introduction to Founder’s Day
• 05:00 – Why business goals must guide marketing strategy
• 06:00 – The role of self-awareness, reflection, and vulnerability
• 07:00 – Why what got you here will not get you there
• 08:10 – Building a personal change plan for leadership growth
• 09:00 – Announcement of the Future Proofing Your Marketing Agency event
• 10:00 – Selling transformation instead of tactics
• 10:30 – Why AI will not replace strategic systems
• 11:00 – How to register for the free event

 Quotes

The strategy, no matter how good it is, gets undermined if the founder doesn’t change.

In many cases, we have to move the founder out of the way of growth.

What got you here won’t get you there.

If all you’re doing is delivering value using AI tools, you’re going to be replaced by that very tool.

Real transformation starts with the founder, not the tactics.

Save your Free Seat

Register for the free three-day experience, Future Proofing Your Marketing Agency, running from March 31 through April 2.

Visit: dtm.world/future

• Day 1: Founder’s Day experience
• Day 2: Selling transformation
• Day 3: Marketing Operating System introduction

 

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.058)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and I'm going to do a solo show today. That's right, just me, no guess. I want to talk about some things that...

You know, I can say that it's been brewing recently, but you know, in hindsight, when I look back, it's probably something that I've recognized over 20 years or so. And here's the question I'm going to start with. Why do smart businesses, smart business owners keep hitting the same ceiling? That's what I want to talk about today. I feel very qualified to talk about this because I'm a founder. I've experienced some of the same things I'm going to talk about today. And I think that that

Quite frankly, it's helped me recognize why this is happening. So we work with a lot of founder led businesses and what we've typically found is they don't have a very well developed strategy. I mean, we've built almost our entire practice on the idea of strategy before tactics and many of the clients come to us for a strategy first type of engagement. And while in every case,

They are helped. have better thoughts. They have better priorities. They have better tactics. One of the things that I've found is that even as the business grows, many times they come up against the same hurdle time and time again. A lot of it's because the founders patterns have stayed the same. How they view the business, how they view delegating, how they view growth.

their fears. These are some of the things that I think really end up holding a business back so that it ultimately can't necessarily change, even though we've installed a better marketing approach in many cases. what I've seen, here's some of the things I've seen. Tell me if any of these apply to you. The founder is still very involved in every, or at least many decisions. The team,

John Jantsch (02:11.946)

if they've assembled one, kind of waits around for like, what do we do next rather than owning things? Delegation, while it's a good idea, every quarter I'm going to really commit to it, never really sticks. There's not a lot of accountability or it's fuzzy as far as who's going to do what. And so it's like the business keeps circling around the same issues time and time again. So

I'm wondering, are you feeling that bottleneck? Do any of these symptoms or ideas sound familiar to you? And what's it costing? I guess that's the next question too. I know that when we have worked with a client, in some cases, when we can't get past this issue, the strategy, no matter how good it is, it really stalls or gets undermined at least. Alignment that.

that hopefully sometimes comes out of this strategy engagement falls. People get hesitant. Growth certainly slows as well. what's the solution? Well, one of the things that we have added, and we're going to do it as a standalone, frankly, but certainly as part of or the front end of any strategy engagement that we do, is to add an element that we're calling the Founder's Day.

The idea behind this is to have a very intense guided, facilitated workshop, if you will, with the founder of the business before we ever start talking about their ideal client and their core message. Because I think real change, of course, has to start with that founder. And really before the business can transform, mean, a lot of times we have to teach them what it is that we're going to install, but then also how we're going to reinforce it.

Here's what it is. It's a structured, facilitated experience focused on the founder's change. It's not therapy, although maybe sometimes. It's not really coaching or certainly not coaching theater that you sometimes see out there. It's not a strategy session. It's a process designed to really surface the patterns, the assumptions, the behaviors really that are actually limiting and holding back growth. the goal

John Jantsch (04:39.15)

to that day or to that session or that element, it's not really just insight. mean, it's to create a shift that can support the real organizational change that is going to come from us installing strategy first, installing a marketing operating system. So.

It's going to begin with business goals. Again, that's another thing I think is I've learned the hard way, but I think it's sort of odd that a lot of marketing folks get hired to do marketing plans, to do marketing strategy, to do marketing tactics. And there really hasn't been much discussion, if at all, about what the goals of the organization are, what the goals of the business are. And we really need to tie those two things together. So we're going to start there, really get very clear on what the company wants.

before we start talking about how the founder is going to change in order to get there. And then of course how marketing is going to eventually support that. So.

John Jantsch (05:45.516)

we're going to move, I think we're going to ask you to make some honest reflection to help move you out of the way of growth. I know that sounds really harsh and I can say it again. I think I could say it because frankly, I've lived it myself. In many cases, we have to really change the behaviors that have been in the way and have been quite frankly become part of the culture. And the only way you can change them is to recognize that they exist. So we're gonna walk you through

facilitate a day, frankly, of helping you understand what those, not only what the goals for the business are, we're going to start there, but then we're going to actually talk about what are the constraints, what's holding you back, what has held you back. And it's going to, in many cases, going to take some vulnerabilities, some brutal honesty. I know that, you know, when I'm sort of challenged on being the issue, being the problem, you know, it's really

human nature to actually respond in a way that is defensive. And I think that we all know if you've been doing this at any time at all, I mean, that obviously is not helpful for the business itself. So, and what's so amazing is what got you here is that you have the desire, you have the smarts, you have the really the drive to build that business.

But what we've discovered, especially when a business has grown to a certain level, one to $20 million, I mean, clearly something is going right. But what we have found is that that's where they kind of bump up against the ceiling of sorts. And it's that kind of old cliche of what got you here won't get you there, won't get you to the next level. So understanding what the next level is, and then also understanding, or at least having a guided

facilitation around, you know, why some of these patterns keep happening, what's going to change, how are going to commit to change too? It's not really supposed to be just a nice day, you know, where everybody sits around and talks about their feelings. It is going to be a day where you tie what you want to do to how you're going to lead and to really come up with a personal change plan for how you're going to lead.

John Jantsch (08:10.988)

that we believe is the thing that's going to kind of unleash you going to the next level. Now there are many elements, obviously, in the execution, in strategy first, in installing the marketing operating system. But what we've discovered is this is the key to really unlocking a true transformation in the business and making it stick. Many of us have experienced temporary experiences, temporary transformations.

The key to this is really, this is what's going to make it stick. So this is something that we have just introduced and we're gonna start offering as a standalone product, if you will, or experience. However, I've got an opportunity for you to experience it free of charge. March 31st through April 2nd, we are going to hold an event that we are calling Future Proofing, your how to future proof your marketing agency. It is targeting.

agencies and consultants in this particular case, because that's a market that we serve. And so we are going to offer three days. The first day is going to be this founder day. I'm going to walk people through it. You're going to go away with a workbook. You're going to go away with lots of questions. It's going to be a group setting. So it's certainly not going to be the intimate one-on-one session that that might and probably needs to happen. But we want people to experience this is part of duct tape marketing.

This is part of our marketing system now. The second day, and what we're going to do is one hour a day. We're going to give you homework. We're going to give you workbooks. You're going to really, we're calling it a working experience. It's not a workshop. It's not a webinar. So day two is going to be thinking in terms of how do we move from selling tactics to selling transformation, to delivering transformation for our clients? Because I think that is

the future. That is how we're going to future proof our business. And then day three, we are actually going to introduce attendees to something we call the marketing operating system. It is in my estimation, it is the way that you can make yourself really impervious to what's going on with AI. It is something that AI can't replicate and you are going to be in the driver's seat with it. I'm not suggesting we're not going to use AI.

John Jantsch (10:32.878)

going to use AI in all the ways that it is meant to be used and all the ways that are practical and all the ways that deliver value. But if all you're doing is delivering value using AI tools, well, you're going to be replaced by that very tool. But if you actually have a framework and a system that we call the marketing operating system, AI can't produce that. Now it can help you deliver it, but you are going to make future proof your practice. So three days.

I will, we will certainly be promoting this in other ways. But if you're interested, want to go sign up for free? It is dtm.world slash future. That's dtm like duct tape marketing dot world slash future. And I believe it could be one of the most eyeopening experiences that you can have, particularly if you're one of those people out there thinking, am I going to get replaced by AI?

Is the agency world changing? Do I need a new model? I think we're going to introduce you to some ideas that might answer some of those questions for you. So last time, March 31st through April 2nd, three days in a row, hour a day, plus you're going to get homework and workbooks, dtm.world slash future. And if nothing else, I think the experience of going through the founder day of asking some deeper questions than maybe what do need to do today?

might be well worth the time invested. So that's it for today. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days soon out there on the road.

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The Hidden Tax Savings in Your Business

The Hidden Tax Savings in Your Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews
Peter Holtz, founder of Peter Holtz CPA and a former Big Four accountant and
multi-company CFO. Peter explains why most business owners are unknowingly overpaying taxes
and how proactive tax planning can legally reduce tax liability—sometimes by tens or even
hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Peter breaks down the difference between traditional tax compliance and strategic tax
planning, sharing why the majority of tax preparers simply fill out forms rather than
actively looking for opportunities to save their clients money. He discusses common tax
strategies that many businesses miss, including the Augusta Rule, employing children in the
business, maximizing depreciation, and properly structuring entities.

The conversation also explores the mindset many entrepreneurs have around profit, the
importance of building tax strategy into business planning, and how a CFO-level financial
perspective can help business owners make smarter long-term decisions.

If you’re a business owner who only talks to your CPA at tax time, this episode reveals why
that approach could be costing you significantly—and how to fix it.

Guest Bio

Peter Holtz is a CPA and former CFO who helps business owners keep more of
what they earn through proactive tax strategy. He has built and advised multi-8-figure
companies, leads an Inc. 5000 and IPA Top 500 accounting
firm, and is known for reframing taxes as a long-term wealth decision rather than a
once-a-year task.

With decades of experience in tax accounting and CFO advisory, Peter specializes in helping
entrepreneurs legally reduce their tax burden through year-round tax planning and strategic
financial guidance.

Key Takeaways

1. Most CPAs Focus Only on Compliance

While over 1.2 million professionals are licensed to prepare taxes in the U.S.,
only about 1,100 are certified tax planners. Most accountants simply enter
numbers into forms rather than actively looking for tax-saving opportunities.

2. Waiting Until Tax Season Costs Businesses Money

Tax strategy should happen throughout the year. Many tax-saving moves—such as purchases,
depreciation strategies, or entity structuring—must be implemented before December 31
to affect that year’s taxes.

3. Business Owners Miss Common Tax Strategies

Peter frequently sees entrepreneurs miss legal deductions and strategies like:

• Home office reimbursements
• The Augusta Rule (renting your home to your business)
• Employing children in the business
• Proper asset depreciation
• Correct entity structuring

These missed opportunities can add up to significant tax overpayments.

4. Shifting Expenses from After-Tax to Pre-Tax Is Powerful

One of the most effective strategies is converting personal expenses into legitimate business
expenses when appropriate. The more expenses you can move from after-tax dollars to
pre-tax dollars, the more you reduce taxable income.

5. Profit Must Be Treated as a Priority

Many entrepreneurs only aim to “pay the bills,” rather than intentionally building profit
into their business model. Peter emphasizes the importance of planning for profit, retirement,
healthcare, and future financial goals as part of the business structure.

6. Financial Strategy Requires Asking Better Questions

A great tax advisor doesn’t just prepare returns—they ask deeper questions about your
business, goals, assets, and family situation to uncover opportunities most accountants miss.

Great Moments From the Episode

• 00:02 — Introduction to Peter Holtz
  John introduces Peter Holtz and his background as a Big Four accountant and founder of a rapidly growing CPA firm.
• 01:05 — The Cost of Waiting Until Tax Season
  Peter explains how delaying tax planning until March can cost businesses tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 02:05 — Why Most CPAs Don’t Do Tax Strategy
  Peter breaks down the difference between compliance accountants and certified tax planners.
• 03:26 — How the Tax Code Incentivizes Economic Activity
  Discussion on how government tax policies encourage investments like real estate and infrastructure.
• 06:51 — The Most Common Tax Savings Business Owners Miss
  Peter highlights overlooked strategies including the Augusta Rule, home office reimbursements, and paying children through the business.
• 11:09 — Diagnosing Tax Problems vs Cash Flow Problems
  Peter explains how reviewing tax returns and balance sheets quickly reveals missed opportunities.
• 12:27 — When Businesses Need CFO-Level Thinking
  The conversation shifts to financial strategy and how CFO insights help business owners make smarter growth decisions.
• 14:55 — The Misunderstood Relationship With Profit
  John and Peter discuss why many entrepreneurs treat profit incorrectly and how that mindset hurts long-term success.
• 20:12 — How Far Should Businesses Push Tax Strategy?
  Peter shares a real example of pushing tax law boundaries legally and successfully defending it with documentation.
• 24:14 — Where to Learn More
  Peter shares resources and a free tax strategy session available for business owners.

Memorable Quotes

“If you’re not planning your taxes year-round, you’re almost certainly paying more than you need to.”

“The more you can shift expenses from after-tax dollars to pre-tax dollars, the more money you keep.”

“Most accountants focus on putting numbers into boxes. Strategic tax planning starts with asking the right questions.”

Resources & Links

Website:
peterholtzcpa.com

Exclusive Resource for Duct Tape Marketing Listeners:
Tax Strategy Playbook & Tax Audit – A self-assessment and strategy review designed to help business owners identify gaps in their current tax approach and determine whether their structure is aligned with how their business is growing.

Get the exclusive resource here

Connect with Peter Holtz

• Instagram: @peterholtzcpa
• Facebook: Peter Holtz CPA
• X (Twitter): @peterholtzcpa
• LinkedIn: Peter Holtz CPA

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:02.075)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Peter Holtz. He's a former Big Four accountant and multi-company CFO turned founder of Peter Holtz CPA, a fast growing firm recognized on the 2025 Inc and 5,000 at number 3075 and named to...

The top 25 IPA, top 500 with decades of experience in tax accounting and CFO advisory. He helps business owners legally reduce their tax burden through proactive year round planning. So Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Holtz (00:38.318)

Thank you very much. You got it exactly right.

John Jantsch (00:40.635)

Yeah. So we are recording this. People may be listening to this at other times of the year, but we're recording this right around the March 15th deadline for a lot of businesses to file taxes. So it kind of leads me to teeing up this question is, what's the real cost in waiting till now to think about or have this tax conversation?

Peter Holtz (01:05.29)

It could be like tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. if you, you know, the problem is you got to structure yourself and make sure you take, all your write-offs in place before year end, most of the time, right? So that December 31st timeframe is very, very important. And what's critical about what we do and what business owners should be doing is they should be like planning their taxes year round. They should be having quarterly meetings with their tax preparers, tax advisors, whatever.

and really tax strategists. we recommend is a solid tax strategy to make sure that of where they are, where they're going, how much money they're going to make, what they need to set aside, and everything else that they need to.

John Jantsch (01:46.747)

So, particularly folks that they have an accountant or a CPA that really kind of just does their compliance with tax reporting, where do you see companies like that leaking the most money? And I guess the follow-up question is, why isn't there a CPA telling them?

Peter Holtz (02:05.294)

Well, that's one of the biggest problems in the industry, right? And there are 1.2 million people in the United States license, prepare taxes with the IRS. And only about 1100 of us are certified tax planners. it's an additional education you can get if you're really interested in helping your business clients. It's not that difficult to do, but it teaches you some of the more...

basic and more advanced tax planning techniques to really reduce taxes. And when you think about it, it's basically 99.993 % of that 1.2 million are basically compliance guys. They put the numbers in boxes. Sometimes they don't even think about the numbers they put in the boxes. Like I've seen businesses with no assets. Like I've seen a gas station tax return filed with no assets. And I'm like, how do you not have any assets?

John Jantsch (03:01.115)

You

Peter Holtz (03:01.58)

Like you take everything out with your hands and pour the gas and the, mean, it's just impossible. So, and that's really a shame. think it, I think the industry to a certain extent has been more compliance oriented in terms of putting the numbers in the boxes and do it. That's it. And they've not thought about really what can I do to save the client's money? And there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff that the tax code lets them do in terms of depreciation, bonus depreciation.

John Jantsch (03:03.919)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (03:26.53)

You know, the Augusta rule, paying your kids, how to structure things, should you be a C-Corp, S-Corp, LLC, those are all really important questions.

John Jantsch (03:34.223)

Well, and I want to come back to the, I do want you to address where you commonly see companies leaking, you know, places, but I want to follow up on what you said about the CPAs. Is there also an element of the industry that is sort of risk averse? And even if something's in the tax code, it might get looked at harder than that. I mean, I've heard that from accountants. It's like, we probably don't want to do this, even though it's in the tax code and it's legal.

It's going to get your return looked at. mean, is there, is there sort of an overarching attitude that leans towards that?

Peter Holtz (04:09.134)

There is, there's a lot of real conservatism when it comes to that. you know, I don't know what to say about it, but it's wrong. mean, it really, if it's in, you know, Congress writes the tax code. And last year we had the big, beautiful bill, for example, that allows you, they do it so that people will do certain things so that the economy gets better. You know.

John Jantsch (04:19.375)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (04:36.398)

You know, you think about just think about depreciating, depreciating real estate, the long term real estate appreciates every year at 4%. Right over the long term 4%. But yet we can write it off. We can depreciate it. Right. It is the only appreciating asset we can depreciate. And the reason the government does that is because they want places for people to live because a civilian population that's living inside is much happier than when it's living outside and they want people to work.

They grow the economy by offering these tax rules to incentivize investment, and incentivize certain things. Low income housing credits, solar tax credits that we had and a lot of were eliminated. The electric vehicle tax credit that we put in place. All of these things were so important to the changes that the government wants to make in economy in leveraging really the entire economy.

to try to move in the direction that they wanna move. And a lot of it's built into the tax cut.

John Jantsch (05:37.527)

So the tax code is what? Upward 700, 800 pages? Nine to 10,000. Okay. So how does somebody like you keep up on the fact that it may change, I mean, change dramatically this year?

Peter Holtz (05:41.998)

No, like minor 10,000 pages. Minor 10,000 pages.

Peter Holtz (05:51.221)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we do is we it's continuing professional education. We make sure we understand and focus on on on the things we need to focus on for our business owners. We just continue to study, study, study. Right. And I think what's interesting is I think now we know with AI and so forth, it's going to allow us to leverage to study even more. Right. And to get into the nitty gritty and really expand our range of services and help people save even more money.

things like, you know, more exotic things like certain types of trust, property trust, revocable trust, irrevocable trust, all those other things, I think are gonna become more and more important as we continue to grow and increase complexity.

John Jantsch (06:35.557)

So, let me loop back to what are maybe less three or four of the most common things that you see all the time. You've mentioned assets a couple of times, so depreciation is probably one of them. But what are some of the things that you just see time and time again?

Peter Holtz (06:45.826)

Right. Yeah.

Peter Holtz (06:51.852)

I see people that don't reimburse themselves for home office. I see people that don't take the Augusta rule, which is ability to rent out your personal residence 14 days a year to your business and create tax-free income. I see people not paying their kids. I've heard other CPAs saying, that's a red flag. Well, nonsense, OK? The tax law was established that any child above age seven can work in your business. You can pay them a fair amount.

for the work that you're doing and you're gonna have to do payroll or create the time records and give them a job to actually do it. But to them, to a child, if you pay them $15,000 a year and they're monitoring your social media, maybe they're helping you with whatever, to them it's at their standard deduction. So it's essentially tax-free income. yeah, exactly. I see people. Yeah, I see people.

John Jantsch (07:43.919)

Yeah, and you were going to give it to them anyway. Because they needed the money, so they were going to get it one way or another,

Peter Holtz (07:51.694)

I see people spending money on their kids, sports, their music lessons, their schooling, whatever it is. And these people are using after-tax money instead of pre-tax money. The more you can shift from after-tax to pre-tax, the more money you save. And if you use all the rules properly, if you're a business owner, let's say you're making $150,000 a year in a business, which is okay, right? But you've worked your business, you've made yourself a decent profit.

John Jantsch (07:57.221)

Right.

Peter Holtz (08:20.633)

probably you can turn close to $100,000 of that $150,000 into tax-free money. If you use every, and you properly manage and control your business, you're gonna have your home office be, I mean, I see, every time I see a contractor, right? You know their primary storage facility for a contractor is a garage.

John Jantsch (08:42.299)

The garage.

Peter Holtz (08:43.183)

Right? Every single contractors garage is full of stuff. And it's funny when I talk to clients who are contractors and the husband and wife is there, it's like I always mention that. Oh, was like, oh yeah, for sure. Or I'll have guys that deliberately, maybe they have a bigger piece of property and build a barn on their backyard in the backyard to store their equipment, their trucks, their extra materials, whatever. And they never write it off because nobody asked. This is really where it gets in my profession. Really, really is a problem.

John Jantsch (08:47.227)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (09:12.705)

is people don't ask questions. Like every time I start talking to somebody I'm asking, know, what's your business like? What are you actually doing? How do you do it? Where do you work? Are you working out of your home? You know, are you paying your kids or whatever? How many of this? How many? And it's like you would be, I literally have people who are still, they have their parents living with them, supporting them, and the parents are helping in the business and they're giving their parents money and supporting them.

they're not taking it out, but even though the parents are doing stuff to help them. it is, know, trying to think of everything is about asking. It's not about the answers, it's about asking the right question.

John Jantsch (09:53.603)

Right, right, right. So I should hold, I actually have my office in my home. So you just gave me a hint. should hold a retreat once a year for 15 days and lease or rent the home to my business.

Peter Holtz (10:04.099)

Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Holtz (10:12.119)

Absolutely. Well, you know what? Quite honestly, I have I have an attorney in the Northeast that's a client of mine that does major events and the and like he's got a very large place, a very large house, and he does major catering events out of his house for clients that are business building. And if he would go to a Hilton or Four Seasons or a large hotel, you know, the Augusta rule still applies. It's what you

what you would pay for an equivalent space outside. sometimes we're taking very large, you know, imagine 12 events at $20,000 an event, a tax free income, because it's like, and a lot of, man, you know, there's a lot of people that can benefit by that.

John Jantsch (10:52.379)

Sure, Yeah. Yeah.

You

John Jantsch (11:01.563)

So when you first sit down with a business owner, are there some pretty telltale signs that they've probably got a tax problem versus a cashflow problem?

Peter Holtz (11:09.805)

Yes, absolutely. Well, what we do is we, when we sit down with the business owner, get your last two years tax returns, business and personal, we study them. We understand exactly what we see on the tax returns. Then we kind of go back and we ask them questions about what we see for the business and everything else like that. And there are some telltale signs. I made that point about the gas station with no assets, right? Or it's like, hey, you know, you're, and it's always the balance sheet that you can really find a lot of mistakes. Like they may, you know,

John Jantsch (11:31.055)

Yeah.

Peter Holtz (11:39.182)

We know they may use this type of business where they may use credit cards, but yet there's no credit card liability for what they've already spent money on. Lots and lots of stuff that we can see in the numbers that just look weird compared to other businesses, other people in the same industry. So those telltale signs are really, all in the numbers. And I'll have people come to me and start talking to me and say, and I'm like, I got to look at your numbers. And once you start,

John Jantsch (11:56.303)

Mmm.

Peter Holtz (12:08.655)

I mean, I've been doing this for near 40 years, right? So once you start looking at a business and you kind of know what to expect in terms of margins and everything else like that, and in terms of bottom line, and when it's not there, you're going to figure out why.

John Jantsch (12:23.867)

So you also offer CFO services on a virtual base. Is there a point at which a small business needs that level of thinking, or is it like day one?

Peter Holtz (12:27.011)

Okay.

Peter Holtz (12:38.093)

I mean, to a certain extent, you need some financial acumen, certainly from day one. Certain elements of the tax code from a business owner are really, really tricky. Probably the trickiest one is sales tax, right? And every state has auditors that go out there that try to find additional money. Everybody tries to find additional money for their people. And the sales tax can be really, really tough.

John Jantsch (12:59.547)

shoot every city.

Peter Holtz (13:08.119)

that's a regular tax start hard enough, but, you know, Yeah, but really as a business gets bigger and really they're thinking about growing really they're thinking about, you know, what they're going to do next. Should I buy this next vehicle? Should I buy my competitor? Should I get a building? Should I do, you know, what's going to be the long-term impact to me, not only from a tax receptor, but also financial perspective is really, really important.

Can I afford to do this? What does my business look like? How is my marketing paying off for me? You know what I mean? And just all the different questions that you want to ask as a business owner, having another person who knows numbers, right? Because here's the thing, most business owners understand what they do, right? They know how to fix a car. They know how to pump gas. They know how to do a restaurant. They know how to do catering. They know how to do construction, whatever it is that they know how to do it,

John Jantsch (13:55.407)

Yeah, right.

Peter Holtz (14:05.486)

But when it comes to the numbers and the compliance and the, you know, how are my numbers going to fall in the next couple of years? Studying that is really, really important. Having just another set of eyes to say, hey man, you know what? I think I want to buy my building. And I'm like, okay, well, what's the, what's the, what's, what's your current rent for your building? Right? Okay. Whatever. was 10, $4,000 a month. If you buy the building, how much is your loan payment going to be?

$3,000. Well, that's an easy one, right? Because you're buying a building, you're getting depreciation, you get the write-offs or whatever. Looking at those breakeven, even understanding breakeven and what you have to do and what your margins are can really, really, I mean, can be night and day for a business owner.

John Jantsch (14:36.392)

Right.

John Jantsch (14:45.189)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:55.973)

Talk to me a little bit about the mindset that you see. know I've worked with thousands. I've done this 30 years too. I've worked with thousands of businesses and profit seems to be a really misunderstood and often maligned word. The relationship that businesses have with profit really seems screwed up. How do you help fix that?

Peter Holtz (15:15.68)

I think you have a very, very good point. And I think it relates to, I think that mindset relates to the fact that when most people get, if they start their own business, most people get started in business and they come with the attitude of, know, I just need to make, I just need to pay my bills. I just need to pay my bills. So they're kind of going along, working their butts off, trying to get to this level. Then they start paying their bills and they level off, right? Then they don't say, wait a minute, I should make this building pay for my retirement.

John Jantsch (15:18.491)

Thank you.

Peter Holtz (15:45.585)

I should make this business pay for my retirement, make this business put money away for my healthcare, put money away from the college education. And what I'll see is that people go along and suddenly they got a kid that's got to go to college and they need find another 30 grand a year. They step it up. So why not step it up and push it all along the way and factor in your retirement, factor in your medical, factor in your kids' care.

factor in everything as part of your utilities for your business. And you rarely see people factoring in a savings plan into their business operations. And that is really the-

John Jantsch (16:18.607)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:27.387)

Sure. Well, we talked about it before we jumped on recorded here. You know, we're both fans of Mike McCallowitz's work, Profit First. And I think as simple as that idea was, it really did, you know, the idea of actually instead of paying all the bills and going, I hope there's some leftover, it was really more of just what you said. It's like, no, this is a bill, profit's a bill. You pay it first.

Peter Holtz (16:34.542)

Yep.

Peter Holtz (16:55.563)

Exactly.

John Jantsch (16:57.392)

There does tend to be a real kind of, we'll work to the level of what's left, right?

Peter Holtz (17:04.172)

Exactly. it's not, there's nothing bad about that. It's just people's understand, you know, they know what they know. You know what I mean? And that's one of the things I like about Profit First and what Mike has done is that he's educated people on, got to pay yourself first, man. That's what you're in business to do. Right? A lot of people love the freedom and being in their own business. They love not being their own boss. But it can, if they don't take care of themselves, it can be...

You know, a heavy, heavy load. remember once I met a pool contractor that was in his sixties and he spent his life, good 20, 30 years building pools for rich people in one of the wealthiest communities in the United States. And he ended up broke because he never watched his numbers and he never took care of it. And it was like, it was sad. You know what I mean? I would see pictures of the works of art that he built and, you know, it, I never want to see in my clients go down that

John Jantsch (17:44.539)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:04.709)

So if you were advising people, whether they call you or anybody they're working with currently, what are a handful of questions that they, regardless of the relationship they have with their tax advisor, they should be saying, hey, wait a minute, ask me about these four things to get better sort of strategic picture rather than just like add up the numbers and fill out the forms.

Peter Holtz (18:29.487)

Yeah, I think you want your tax person or your business advisor or accountant basically to ask you questions like, tell me about your business plan. What do you think you want to do? Are you going to grow? Are you going to stabilize? You're going to sell? What are you thinking about doing in the next three to five years? I think you want them to ask them about your...

family and your personal life and who you support and everything else like that so they can maximize their your deductions. I think they want to get in they want to get into your business and talk to you a little bit about how they're planning to grow their business. Okay. And I think they want to you want them to ask you questions about this is an interesting way. What have you paid for outside the business that you may be using in your business?

I will run into plenty of times where it's like, you know, I bought this pickup truck and I never really put it in the business, even though I use it for the business. It's finding those misplaced assets. You know what I mean? And it's really what you want is somebody that's going to ask a lot of questions. And really get it out of spending not only your business life and your personal life and where you spend your money.

John Jantsch (19:43.067)

All right.

John Jantsch (19:49.861)

So this is a tricky question, the only tricky question I'm gonna ask you. How far do you think people should push it? So there's some things that's like, that's kind of gray or I mean, it's in the code, but you really would have to document every second you did that or so. I mean, how far do you just kind of say, let's take advantage of what they're giving us without killing ourselves?

Peter Holtz (19:53.242)

Okay.

Peter Holtz (20:12.847)

Yeah. You know, I think,

You know, the line is tax law, right? I think you want to go up to that line. Okay. In all cases, right? I'll give you a good example. have an airline pilot that once wanted to claim to be a real estate professional, yet he was getting a very substantial W-2 from the airline business. Well, upon further research, airline pilots can only fly 20 hours a week. And when this guy was on layover or waiting to fly, he was doing his real estate portfolio.

He had multiple properties. He was managing contractors. He was collecting rents. was doing this. So we got him declared a real estate professional, even though under full-time W-2. And it worked. And now he can take all the depreciation from his real estate against his W-2. And it was pushing the limit because the IRS came back. And they said to us, this guy's got a six-figure W-2. What are you guys crazy? And it's like,

John Jantsch (20:46.715)

Yeah.

Peter Holtz (21:13.563)

Federal law says he can only fly 20 hours a week. It's a part-time job. And we were able to prove that he was working 25 hours a week on his real estate portfolio.

John Jantsch (21:23.109)

Yeah, well, that's a great one too, because you had the backing of that. You know, it wasn't him just saying, I only work 20 hours a week. was literally like, I can't.

Peter Holtz (21:31.396)

Yeah, exactly. you know, the other great news, he was an airline pilot and you know, airline pilots are fastidious about keeping records. So he was very, very, he had all the contemporaneous records that we could possibly need. And the IRS was like, well, we got nothing. Right. So sometimes it's worth the challenge when you think, and once you, once you get through that challenge in one year, he's, he's, he's been able to do this now for five, six, seven years.

John Jantsch (21:38.491)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (21:48.027)

Yeah

Peter Holtz (21:58.694)

which has been amazing. So I think you want to take it to the tax law. I don't think you want to break the tax law. I think everybody needs to understand where the Internal Revenue Service is right now too. They're in a mess. It is a, I would say, unqualified disaster, the Internal Revenue Service. Their staff has been cut 25%. They're on, and these are not my opinions, these are facts.

John Jantsch (22:10.074)

Yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (22:26.329)

when they, and you can chat GBT this stuff or whatever from their announcements, when the government is shut down, half their operation is shut down. They've actually told people, when you file, you need to have your refund direct deposited, otherwise you'll wait another six to eight weeks to get a paper check, because they're not processing paper. And they're letting their automated systems run, but they're not processing the paper that would feed into the automated system.

52 % of the letters that are being sent by the IRS are incorrect. It's probably much higher now because of the current situations. I mean, there's nothing the people in the IRS can really do about it because we've had conversations we've never had with the Internal Revenue Service before where it's like, hey, we need to talk to a revenue officer to help this client take care of a balanced past due and to work out a payment plan. And the IRS will tell us, well, there's nobody available.

John Jantsch (22:59.803)

You

Peter Holtz (23:23.665)

So it is, that's one of the things you want to factor in, in terms of what you decide what to do and understanding that the Internal Revenue Service is not the efficient organization. I won't, I'm not even gonna say it that way. It's not as good as used to be and it never was the efficient organization. I mean, COVID, during COVID there, so much stuff disappeared. So many things disappeared. Paper that was filed and it was just a nightmare.

John Jantsch (23:40.482)

Right?

John Jantsch (23:54.299)

Hmm.

Peter Holtz (23:54.405)

I mean, millions upon millions of documents at once.

John Jantsch (23:58.533)

Well, I'm fearful we're going to go down a rabbit hole here that we won't be able to recover from. So Peter, where would you invite people? I appreciate you stopping by. Where would you invite people to learn more about the work that you do and connect with you?

Peter Holtz (24:03.493)

We definitely could if we want to.

Peter Holtz (24:14.039)

at go.peterholtz.com.

John Jantsch (24:22.765)

Awesome. Backslash Ducktape, because he's going to have all kinds of freebies for you there if you go there, right?

Peter Holtz (24:27.791)

Yeah, we got some goodies in there. have self-assessment PDF we have in there. We also offer a free tax strategy meeting with our team. And it's not really anything to do with the IRS, but we can definitely take a look at that tax strategies you currently have in play and look at the last couple of years tax returns and see what we can do to help you out.

John Jantsch (24:46.127)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road, Peter. Thanks.

Peter Holtz (24:51.398)

Sounds good. Thanks, John. Great meeting you.

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