Breaking Ground: How to Build a Thriving Practice Without Feeling “Salesy”

Breaking Ground: How to Build a Thriving Practice Without Feeling “Salesy” written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Deborah Farone, founder of Farone Advisors and author of Breaking Ground: How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices.

The conversation explores why traditional approaches to business development often fail—especially in professional services—and how authenticity, relationships, and strategic positioning can lead to sustainable success.

Deborah Farone shares insights from her work with top-performing professionals and highlights how business development is less about selling and more about building trust, creating meaningful connections, and developing a niche. While her research focuses on women in law, the lessons apply broadly to consultants, agency owners, and service-based professionals.

Guest Bio

Deborah Farone is the founder of Farone Advisors and a leading expert in legal business development and marketing. She has held senior business development roles at major law firms and has spent her career helping professionals grow their practices through strategic relationship-building.

Her book, Breaking Ground, draws on interviews with successful women lawyers around the world to uncover practical strategies for building a thriving, authentic practice.

Key Takeaways

1. Business Development Isn’t About “Selling”

Most professionals resist sales because it feels inauthentic. The most successful practitioners focus on helping, supporting, and providing value rather than asking for business directly.

2. Relationships Are the Foundation of Growth

Strong networks—not just direct prospects—drive opportunities. Often, the people who refer or connect you matter more than immediate buyers.

3. Authenticity Outperforms Scripts

There is no one-size-fits-all approach. The best strategy is one aligned with your personality and interests, making it sustainable and repeatable.

4. Trust Is Built on Three Core Elements

• Expertise
• Authenticity
• Empathy

These elements consistently show up in successful business development strategies.

5. You Don’t Have to Be Outgoing to Succeed

Introverts can excel by choosing methods that feel natural—like small meetings, coffee chats, or shared-interest activities.

6. Start Small and Build Confidence

Business development is a skill that improves over time. Begin with low-pressure conversations and gradually expand your comfort zone.

7. Your Network Is Bigger Than You Think

Connections from school, early jobs, and indirect relationships often become valuable sources of opportunity later in your career.

8. Develop a Clear Niche

Success comes from identifying the intersection of:

• What you enjoy
• What you’re good at
• What the market values

Then going deep to become known for that expertise.

9. Strategy Before Tactics

Many professionals jump into tactics (events, speaking, outreach) before defining their positioning. Clear strategy must come first.

10. Firms Must Train Early

Waiting until professionals reach senior levels to develop business skills is too late. Early training builds habits and networks that compound over time.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

00:02 – The Real Barrier to Growth
Why outdated rules—not lack of talent—hold professionals back.

01:08 – Why Deborah Farone Wrote This Book
The gap in role models and business development training.

02:15 – Why Professionals Resist Sales
Reframing sales as helping rather than pitching.

03:36 – The Power of Relationships and Networks
Why your broader network is more valuable than you think.

05:28 – Authenticity as a Competitive Advantage
Why personalized approaches outperform standardized methods.

06:02 – Creative Ways to Build Client Relationships
Examples of professionals using personal interests to connect with clients.

08:13 – How Introverts Can Succeed in Business Development
Practical ways to start small and build confidence.

10:00 – The Leadership Gap in Law Firms
Why lack of representation impacts growth and mentorship.

11:53 – The Three Elements of Trust
Expertise, authenticity, and empathy as core drivers.

13:15 – Why Niche Matters
The importance of strategic positioning before tactics.

13:56 – Where Firms Get It Wrong
The cost of delaying business development training.

17:04 – Internal Networking Matters First
Building relationships inside your organization as a foundation.

Memorable Quotes

“The most successful professionals don’t ask for business—they show how they can help.”

“There is no one-size-fits-all approach to business development. You have to find what works for you.”

Resources & Links

• Deborah Farone website: DeborahFarone.com
• Book: Breaking Ground: How Successful Women Lawyers Build Thriving Practices
• LinkedIn: Deborah Breitman-Farone

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:02.104)

What if the real barrier to building a thriving practice is not just talent or expertise, but the outdated rules we've accepted about how business development is supposed to work. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Deborah Farone. She's a founder of Farone Advisors and a longtime leader in legal business development and marketing. She previously held senior business development roles at major law firms and her new book.

Deborah Farone (00:13.368)

Thank you.

Deborah Farone (00:30.586)

you

John Jantsch (00:30.84)

breaking ground how successful women lawyers build thriving practices. That's what we're going to talk about today. Welcome, Debra.

Deborah Farone (00:36.858)

Thank you for having me, John.

John Jantsch (00:40.398)

So for listeners, we're not going to talk about legal stuff. We're not going to necessarily. I think a lot of the things that I was going to share today will apply to anybody, particularly in professional services, because really the business development is very, very similar. So you've spent many years, I suspect, helping firms think about business development. This book focuses specifically on women. Is there a gap that you saw that you think made this book necessary?

Deborah Farone (00:44.852)

Thank

Deborah Farone (01:08.794)

There was, you know, I think that most lawyers and most professionals develop business in very similar ways, but I felt that there were some women out there who either didn't have the role models because there are fewer women at the top of the organizations and law firms, or they didn't know how to have the skills to develop business. So that's why I really wanted to help them. But in doing the book, I realized that so much of what I was learning was applicable.

John Jantsch (01:15.746)

Right.

Deborah Farone (01:37.7)

to anyone who wanted to develop business. It's just my sample set happened to be women.

John Jantsch (01:43.214)

Yeah. So I think many people suffer from this, regardless of the industry, but certainly in professional services, I think it is more so. that people, don't even like the term sales, right? I mean, it feels salesy. It's all the bad things they associate with what they see it. But you certainly talk about, and I know that this is a thread running through the book, that it doesn't have to feel salesy. Why do you think so many...

Business professionals, sales professionals really resist this.

Deborah Farone (02:15.674)

think most of them went to school to learn a profession, whether it was to learn to be an accountant or a consultant. No one ever said you were going to have to go into sales. So it sounds like all of a sudden they have to have this new way of thinking. I really don't think that's the case. In fact, most of the successful people that I've worked with, whether they're consultants or lawyers, don't find themselves asking for the business. They never really say, can I have that business from you? They very often

John Jantsch (02:19.608)

Yeah, you're right.

Deborah Farone (02:44.492)

let people know what they've done. They offer to help. They use words like, I support you? But they're not in sales mode. I think they really do want to help these potential clients. And so that comes through. And I believe you need to be more authentic than you do a salesperson when you're trying to build a practice.

John Jantsch (03:08.238)

Well, think there's a lot of things that certainly I've learned in selling professional services. That idea of give value, provide value, provide support, and eventually that business will come around. But when you tell that person that is just getting started out there and they're like, that's great. I'm all for the long game and for investing, but I need to eat. So how do you kind of thread that?

Deborah Farone (03:36.206)

think it's important to have relationships and I really try to get young professionals to concentrate on that. And even if they don't have a big budget in a firm, get your senior people to come and train the younger ones. Give them the war stories of how you've won clients or how you've met people that have developed business. think that that's very important. And I think even for people that are still in school to start thinking about your network and your network isn't just

John Jantsch (03:50.21)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (04:05.486)

the people that you go to class with. It's who you met at your summer jobs, right? It's the people in your first job who work in ancillary positions. They might not be a consultant if you're a consultant or an accountant if you're an accountant, but they're the people that you've met. And those folks become part of your network. And I think we're seeing with sales what we often see with job hunting that those contacts that end up hiring us are not necessarily that

first degree circle of people we know, but very often it's the people that they know. So it's important to have a large diverse network of contacts out there.

John Jantsch (04:46.424)

Yeah, I tell, I wrote a book on referrals actually. And I always tell people, you know, not everybody's your prospect, but everybody knows your prospect. You know, at least one of them, right? Yeah. So you did a lot of conversations, had a lot of interviews, focused on a lot of successful women rainmakers. Did you see that there are patterns that show up that are maybe different in how men and women build trust, visibility, and opportunity?

Deborah Farone (04:49.338)

Thanks.

Deborah Farone (04:55.29)

It's true.

John Jantsch (05:16.684)

A follow-up question you can answer, is one better at it? Are those different approaches serve one? So let's go back to the first question, since I butchered that. What patterns did you see showing up in particularly how women build trust, visibility, and opportunity?

Deborah Farone (05:24.346)

You

Deborah Farone (05:28.058)

Thank you.

Well, I wasn't so much studying men versus women as I was just looking at this group of women, but I do find that they like relationship building, that that's something that comes naturally to them. And what I did find that is maybe true with men as well is that you need to be authentic in your marketing approach and how you develop business, that there is not a one size fits all. Not everyone fits into one of four categories.

John Jantsch (05:36.238)

Right, right.

Deborah Farone (06:02.52)

I think we all find our own way of doing it based on our personality, what works for us. And so people like Susan, I and D Baker McKenzie, who I spoke to for the book, loves exercise. She loves being outdoors. And so she invites her clients and her colleagues and contacts whenever they're in town to go with her on a hike. That's not going to work for everyone. But she doesn't like this idea of having the formal cocktail party and inviting people she knows. So.

John Jantsch (06:17.998)

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farone (06:31.393)

I think it's a matter of finding what works for you because that's going to be what you want to repeat. And also that's what your clients are going to see that you enjoy. And clients can tell if you're taking them golfing, but you really don't like golf.

John Jantsch (06:45.506)

Yeah. So I think that you just hit on really the secret is finding what works for you and being yourself rather than looking at like, this is how everybody in our industry does it, or this is how everybody in our firm does it. You really will be more successful doing something that works for you, which is probably going to be something that you also enjoy. Would that be, yeah.

Deborah Farone (07:06.903)

Yes, and I try with the people that I know and I'm sure you do too. You know, want to really get to know them and figure out what are their proclivities? You what are they like? I worked with someone who was a classical musician and she loves the opera. And so she lives in Milan and what she does is she takes her clients and their spouses and families to see a short opera and then for a wonderful dinner.

because she enjoys it and they can tell they know that when she's taking them that they're having a good time and so is she. And so I think that that's really important is figuring out what it is that you enjoy. What's the best way for you to develop business and it might not be the same way as the person next door.

John Jantsch (07:35.927)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (07:53.358)

So what do you say to that client maybe that you're working with that, you know, I think a lot of people think in terms of to be successful business development, you have to be that outgoing, charismatic, you know, networking, you know, kind of person. What do you tell that person who's like, that's just not me? You know, I don't feel comfortable doing that. You know, how am I going to succeed?

Deborah Farone (08:09.688)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (08:13.923)

Right, think, know, well, first of all, I tell people don't take giant leaps, take baby steps. And that's the best thing to do so that if you're not used to talking about yourself and your practice, do it with a family member, you know, then do it with a colleague, then do it with an associate at your firm, and then eventually you can do it with the client. So I think, you know, Jeff Klein, who's a well-known lawyer in New York said marketing is muscle. And I think it's true, you get better and better at it.

John Jantsch (08:19.362)

Nice.

John Jantsch (08:25.368)

me.

John Jantsch (08:40.952)

Yes.

Deborah Farone (08:42.393)

But I also don't think that you need to be out having lunch every day with people if that's not your thing. You know, I love coffee. I mean, I love any kind of coffee, right? So I love meeting people for coffee. It's perfect. I don't have to think about what I'm eating. I don't have to think about any variables. I'm happy at a Starbucks or a fancy hotel for coffee. And that's what I love. You know, so I do coffee meetings.

John Jantsch (08:53.016)

Thank

Deborah Farone (09:09.677)

But other people find their ways. And I think you have to do what feels authentic to you.

John Jantsch (09:16.91)

So what, and maybe you don't keep track of this kind of thing, circling back a little bit to the gender aspect of your work, what's the percentage of women in leadership in the legal industry, you think?

Deborah Farone (09:31.129)

It's very low. mean, we have less than I think 30 % or maybe around 30 % that are actually partners. And if you look at the American Lawyer 100, the top firms, fewer than 25 % are being led by women. And so you have a real issue with diversity on all levels, and even fewer are women or people of color. And so it's a real issue when you talk about looking for role models.

John Jantsch (09:32.547)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:00.588)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (10:00.91)

I think professionals, particularly lawyers, like to look at role models because they're interested in precedent. They want to know what has the other person done that's been successful. And if they don't see people who look like them in those roles, it's a lot harder to figure out how they're going to get there.

John Jantsch (10:09.614)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:18.734)

Do you feel like that system, if you will, still quietly works against women then? When it comes to business development, mean, particularly.

Deborah Farone (10:26.033)

I do. Yeah, I think women and minorities have a tougher time because there are not those role models. I think there are other issues at play like unconscious bias. But, you know, my focus really is on business development. And I feel that, you know, if we can teach people how to develop business, whether they're in the professions or even if they're in something like advertising.

If you have the ability to sell yourself and to develop business, it gives you so much more ability to write your own script and to do what you want because you're going to have more advantages as far as rising within an organization if you're a business developer that we've seen. And you can also kind of develop the clients that you want to develop and develop the practice that appeals to you. And that's great. That gives you a sense of independence that you wouldn't have otherwise.

John Jantsch (11:08.491)

Yes, yes.

Deborah Farone (11:21.483)

So that's really what I want to encourage people to do.

John Jantsch (11:24.846)

You can probably take that on the road to another firm as well as within your own firm.

Deborah Farone (11:27.449)

You can. Absolutely. It allows you freedom. It's a type of currency, isn't it? You know, that you have that capability.

John Jantsch (11:34.892)

Yeah. Yeah.

So we've been talking about applying this to law, but for consultants, agency owners, other experts, what do you think your book could teach them about building practice around relationships rather than self-promotion?

Deborah Farone (11:53.405)

well, I think the authenticity issue is very big. Also trust, I cover how you build trust. And it seems to be three elements. It's expertise, it's the authenticity piece, and it's empathy. And I go into a lot of detail about that because I think being yourself amongst your clients is not something we're trained to do necessarily. But I try to show people examples of folks who have done that.

and why they've been successful. And clients want to work with people who are believable, who come across as humans. I told you when we got on the call that I might have a coughing attack. I don't pretend to be perfect. And I think people like people more when they are themselves and they admit that they're fallible. And so there are lots of different things for other professionals, I think, to learn from these lessons.

And the other really is to develop a niche. think developing a niche is so vital regardless of what you're doing in the world because figuring out what you really enjoy and then figuring out if you think of it as a Venn diagram, what makes economic sense or sense for the firm that you're with. Finding where those overlap is just a vital part of being able to market yourself.

John Jantsch (12:54.679)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (13:15.662)

And then going very good and deep and becoming an expert at that thing, right?

Deborah Farone (13:20.632)

Right, absolutely. But I think we all have a tendency to jump into the tactics before we do the strategy. And I really would recommend that people think about the strategy and how they want to be known and what they want to do before they take an immediate jump into giving lots of speaking engagements or marketing themselves.

John Jantsch (13:27.779)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:40.15)

Yeah. So most professional service firms expect partners to grow the practice. So where do you see the firms themselves getting it wrong in terms of not really equipping those, you know, just saying, go out there and do it.

Deborah Farone (13:56.131)

Yeah, I think they need to train people. I think training has to start when someone is very young in business. I think you can train an older person. You can teach them new tricks. But what happens is, and we see this in so many professions, if you're not training them when they're associates or when they just start, not only are they losing whatever seven or eight years of building good habits about business development and marketing and relationship building,

But they're losing those contacts that they could have made. So they've not been trained, they don't have the contacts. All of sudden you make them partner and you say, okay, it's time, go develop business. And it's much harder at that point.

John Jantsch (14:37.998)

All right.

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. So is there anything in the interviews that you did, particularly with the women, that kind of challenged some of your own assumptions about business development, even about leadership?

Deborah Farone (14:57.728)

think finding that there were cultural differences, there were more cultural differences than I thought there would be around the world. So I spoke with women in Botswana. I spoke with women in Milan and Paris and Asia. And there are differences that I think I just see generally as a difference with culture, whether it's men or women. But in parts of Asia, you would never be direct and say, I want to do

Business with you I want to work with you unless if you really do know someone very well and the same is true with even portions of Italy and Europe. You know London is more like America as far as you can be a little bit more direct. But Latin America is also different and that they want to take time and get to know you and so I think the cultural differences were were really interesting I was aware that there might be some but.

John Jantsch (15:49.006)

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farone (15:55.657)

the ones that I heard about just reinforced how important it is, especially if you're going to another country, that there are to be cultural differences. And even if you're going to another firm, another company that you're trying to sell, you have to just be very empathetic and really understand the culture of that company. So that was reinforced.

John Jantsch (16:19.864)

So if, and I'm sure you've been brought in from time to time to work with somebody who's really good at what they do, sort of hesitant to put themselves out there. Do you always, I mean, is there a first step that you say, well, just do this, it won't kill you, this'll get you started?

Deborah Farone (16:35.352)

I think so much of it is getting to know someone because everyone's going to have their quirks. And so while I do work for large companies and large firms, I will take on about eight coaching clients a year. And I really need to start with getting to know what they do, what they love, what they hate about work, all of those things. And then we can figure out where they want to go. But I really do believe that that's strategic.

John Jantsch (16:39.726)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (17:04.344)

part has to come before they start selling themselves. And very often the selling themselves part starts with how they sell themselves internally at their company. Are they making the right contacts? And are they helping other people? And are they creating a good reputation for themselves? Those things matter so much and they're so easy to overlook.

John Jantsch (17:15.278)

That's a point,

John Jantsch (17:30.722)

Yeah, that's interesting point. I'm sure that when people, especially young associates inside of professional service firm, especially a larger firm, part of the job is start your networking here, right? mean, go meet these partners or go ask somebody how they got to where they got and find a mentor maybe even. that's all part of that's business development, frankly, isn't it?

Deborah Farone (17:54.648)

It is and you know I spoke I guess maybe two or three weeks ago at Columbia Law School and I said to the law students it's really important that you know everyone in this room because one of you is going to be the next Sam Altman or one of you might be the head of an architecture firm or a law firm you just don't know and so it really needs to start at that level it needs to kind of

John Jantsch (18:00.92)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (18:07.276)

Yeah.

Deborah Farone (18:21.451)

reach people who are still trying to figure out what they want to do. Develop a network, think about who is in your network, and make sure that you're empathetic to what they're going through.

John Jantsch (18:28.781)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:33.294)

It's funny, when I started my business some 30 years ago, all my first clients were people I went to high school and college with. So, all right, you wrote Breaking Ground. What do you hope firms and individuals, professionals will do differently as a result of reading?

Deborah Farone (18:40.573)

I'm not surprised. That's great.

Deborah Farone (18:51.029)

I think one, start training people early. Don't wait until they become a partner at their firm. And also realize that everyone develops business in a different way and can develop business in a different way. So have room for people to do it authentically. Give them a budget, give them some guardrails of what they can and can't do if you need to, but allow them to find a way to develop business that's right for them.

So I think those are two things that I would start with.

John Jantsch (19:24.014)

Well, Deborah, I appreciate you saying that by the DuckTait marketing podcast. Is there somewhere you'd invite people to find out more about breaking ground and certainly to connect with you?

Deborah Farone (19:25.833)

It's particularly.

Deborah Farone (19:32.865)

Absolutely. Well, breaking ground, they can easily order through Amazon or through my website. There's some links for discount codes and things like that. And my website is deborahferrone.com. And most of the time I live on LinkedIn. I guess if you can say, where do you live as far as social media, I'm on LinkedIn at Deborah Breitman-Ferrone.

John Jantsch (19:50.19)

Great.

John Jantsch (19:55.694)

Again, I appreciate you stop by and maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Deborah Farone (20:01.053)

John, thank you so much. It was fun speaking with you.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/1U2KAdQ
via IFTTT

The Money Habit: Why Financial Stress Isn’t About Math

The Money Habit: Why Financial Stress Isn’t About Math written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch sits down with bestselling author Mike Michalowicz to discuss his latest book, The Money Habit: The Worry-Free Way to Financial Independence.

While Mike’s previous work (Profit First) revolutionized how entrepreneurs manage business finances, this conversation shifts focus to personal money management—and why so many people still feel anxious about money despite earning more.

Mike reveals that financial stress isn’t primarily about income or math—it’s about behavior, habits, and lack of control. He introduces a system rooted in behavioral psychology that helps individuals take authority over their money without relying on strict discipline or deprivation.

The discussion explores the connection between business and personal finances, the flaws of traditional budgeting, and how simple structural changes—like separating money by purpose—can create clarity, reduce anxiety, and build long-term financial independence.

Guest Bio

Mike Michalowicz is a bestselling author, entrepreneur, and financial systems expert dedicated to helping business owners and individuals gain control over their finances.

He is the author of multiple influential books including Profit First, Clockwork, Fix This Next, and All In. His work has been adopted by over a million businesses worldwide.

Through his latest book, The Money Habit, Mike expands his methodology into personal finance, focusing on behavioral systems that reduce financial stress and create sustainable wealth habits.

Key Takeaways

1. Financial Stress Is Behavioral, Not Mathematical

Most people assume more income will solve financial problems. Mike argues the opposite—financial stability comes from gaining control over money first, then increasing income.

2. More Money Doesn’t Fix Poor Money Habits

Without systems in place, both businesses and households can “leech” from each other, leading to financial instability even when income is high.

3. Discipline Often Backfires

Strict budgeting and deprivation can lead to two outcomes:

• Rebellion (overspending)
• Scarcity mindset (hoarding money without enjoying it)

4. Systems Beat Willpower

Instead of changing behavior, Mike advocates for “behavioral intercepts”—systems that guide natural behavior toward better outcomes.

5. Your Bank Account Is Your Most-Used Financial Tool

Rather than relying on apps or spreadsheets, Mike suggests structuring multiple bank accounts to reflect spending categories, making financial awareness automatic.

6. Real-Time Budgeting Creates Immediate Awareness

When money is separated into purpose-driven accounts, every purchase reflects instantly, helping people make better decisions in real time.

7. Start Small to Build Confidence

Begin with one account tied to your biggest financial worry (e.g., rent, groceries, retirement), then expand gradually.

8. Clarity Reduces Financial Anxiety

Financial stress often comes from uncertainty. Clear allocation of money creates confidence and reduces emotional strain.

9. Entrepreneurs Must Manage Both Business and Personal Finances

Success in business doesn’t guarantee personal financial health—and neglecting one can undermine the other.

10. “If in Doubt, Add an Account”

Creating a dedicated account for a specific concern (like emergency funds or runway) can immediately reduce stress and improve decision-making.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

00:01 – The Real Cause of Financial Anxiety
Mike challenges the idea that money stress is about math, pointing instead to habits and behavior.

01:24 – When Business Success Hurts Personal Finances
How profitable businesses can still fail due to poor personal money management.

02:45 – Generational Money Trauma
Why many people develop unhealthy relationships with money early in life.

03:54 – Financial Worry as a “Part-Time Job”
The hidden cost of constantly thinking about money.

04:29 – Why This Book Is Different from Profit First
Key differences between managing business vs. personal finances.

06:46 – Why Discipline and Budgeting Fail
The psychological pitfalls of deprivation-based financial systems.

08:54 – The Power of Habit-Based Systems
How structured systems outperform willpower.

10:32 – Why Traditional Budgeting Doesn’t Work
Introducing the concept of real-time budgeting through bank accounts.

13:27 – Start with One Account
A simple entry point to building the money habit.

16:20 – Systems Make You “Good with Money”
Why success isn’t about skill—it’s about structure.

18:54 – “If in Doubt, Add an Account”
A practical mantra for reducing financial uncertainty.

Memorable Quotes

“The solution to financial struggle is not more money—it’s authority and control over money.”

“I’ve never been good with money. I’ve found systems that are good with money.”

Resources & Links

• Mike Michalowicz website: MikeMotorbike.com
• Money Habit banking resources: MoneyHabitBank.com
• Money Habit mentors: MoneyHabitMentors.com

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:01.39)

So what if the reason smart entrepreneurs still feel anxious about money has less to do with math and more to do with the habits quietly running their lives? Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mike Michalowicz. He's a bestselling author, entrepreneur, and long time champion for helping business owners take back control of their time, money, and energy. He's the author of many books, Profit First, Clockwork,

fix this next all in, but today we're gonna talk about his latest, the money habit, the worry-free way to financial independence. So Mike, welcome back to the show.

Mike Michalowicz (00:41.31)

John is amazing. You know, we've known each other, I think, 17 years. We're almost approaching 20 years of knowing each other. Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

John Jantsch (00:47.586)

Wow, dang. I got sneakers older than that though. That's nothing.

Mike Michalowicz (00:53.29)

Those Chuck E. T's that you wear. I love those things.

John Jantsch (00:55.854)

So, all right, you're back with another book about money. The Profit First book is pretty much legendary. mean, you've sold six gazillion and have lots of people practicing that. And you brought that to a lot of entrepreneurs. But why are you going back to the well on a more personal book now to help individuals? And I'm assuming there's a lot of cross-ups.

Mike Michalowicz (01:24.618)

There's a lot crossover and it originally started off with helping the entrepreneur, but there's another larger community that it's now serving and I'm focusing on or paying more attention to. But the entrepreneur, I found John is some folks deployed profit first or in some other ways move their business forward so that the business was highly profitable. But their lifestyle started gobbling away at the business and they weren't managing the numbers at home. And therefore, the home leached off the business.

And I also saw the reverse. I've seen some people prepare for retirement, future, and then they start an entrepreneurial endeavor and it doesn't do well. It struggles and leeches off the home and both collapse. So I had the awareness like, if you're not nailing numbers at both sides, the business and the home front, you're screwed. And then I realized this was the biggest aha. I got a call from a business owner that was doing profit first.

And he said his employees are coming to him asking for raises, seeing if they can get in advance. And he goes, I want to accommodate that. By a certain point, the business will no longer be sustainable. They need help managing their money because most people believe that the solution to financial struggle is more money. And the reality is the solution of financial struggle is authority and control over money. And then more money helps, but you need to assert that control first. And that's why I the book.

John Jantsch (02:45.794)

Yeah, and it's interesting, but I mean, you even in the subtitle, have worry free. mean, so there's stress and behavior issues. people grow up with real, you know, I grew up not wealthy at all, lower middle class. I have nine siblings and so money was always an issue. so I kept, you know, my parents really struggled to spend any money because it was like, we got to buy milk or we're going to do this.

And so I think a lot of people like that kind of grow up almost with a unhealthy relationship with money. I mean, it's like the last thing they want to even talk about.

Mike Michalowicz (03:25.706)

There's no question there's generational financial trauma and we are programmed. There was an article that broke from USA Today. I think it was in August of 2025 that really shocked me awake and it said financial worry has become a part time job. And it went on to explain that for the typical American that we are worrying about some kind of financial consequence for hours a day on average.

John Jantsch (03:29.475)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (03:54.618)

And that's devastating because it eats away at us, not just emotionally, but physically. mostly, yeah, you're distracted at work. So your productivity declines. It becomes to some degree a vicious cycle. So what we have to do is we have to learn to make not make do with what we got. We have to assert control over what we've currently got first. And then we start building from there.

John Jantsch (04:01.09)

Yeah, you don't sleep. mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:21.654)

Would it be safe to just call the money habit basically profit first for personal finances or am I missing something?

Mike Michalowicz (04:29.49)

I was missing something actually, because originally that's what I wanted to call it. was profit first personal. And then I realized this is a radically different book. So when I started interviewing people, the biggest difference is that the majority of income earners or not entrepreneurs have a predictable income or no income. So you're humming along and maybe get a little raises over time incrementally. And then someone else can turn off the switch and all of a it stops and you start up again.

John Jantsch (04:32.577)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (04:55.698)

an entrepreneur's trajectory is much more volatile up and down. You have a banner year and you're walking on water and then you have a devastating period after that. Prop first was designed to work for volatility. The money habit is designed to work with potential predict more predictability, but also understanding that the climb won't be as fast and hopefully the decline won't be as fast either as entrepreneurs expect. So I had to integrate that.

and how to work with different income levels. The average American earns $50,000 a year. So this book is designed to work on the average or serve the average income earner and people can earn more and people can earn less. And why designed is as your income changes, we need to change ratios for what we're addressing. If you own less than the average earner in the US,

You're going to focus more on the essentials of living food shelter. If you are earning more than the average, you may be able to orient more toward future dreams, some aspirational things you have.

But the other thing is a lot of people come in with different mindsets. Some people are recovering from debt. Other people are preparing for future events. Classically was retirement, but now it could be just activating funds like taking the family on a two year sabbatical. That that is like a mini retirement before you officially retire. And there's other goals. So I call these seasons. And so the book speaks to.

John Jantsch (06:14.147)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:19.084)

Hmm.

Mike Michalowicz (06:20.744)

tiered income levels, more predictable income levels, but what to do when you lose your income. And it speaks to the season that you are in currently. And that's not in profit first.

John Jantsch (06:32.78)

So there are other mentors books out there, Dave Ramsey comes to mind and it's like, pay off your debt. Don't get a latte, just have discipline. mean, are you essentially saying that but just in a nicer way?

Mike Michalowicz (06:40.958)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (06:46.57)

No, I first let me start by saying Dave Ramsey's work has been personally transformative for me. I love it. Yet this is not a translation of that or an expansion of it. It's a different perspective. For most people, discipline becomes a form of one of two things will trigger retaliation. So depravation discipline becomes deprivation. Deprivation becomes retaliation.

It's classic in diets, like don't eat anything with sugar and we don't until it's all you think about, right? And you retaliate. The other scenario, which is far less frequent is the Scrooge mentality. When you go into deprivation, there's a certain point that says that your identity shifts enough you say, I will never spend money. Then why are you earning money? And so there's people who have accumulated a lot of money and it's all about the fear of losing that money. So they live like paupers. So I found deprivation works for very few.

John Jantsch (07:14.584)

Yeah, that's all you can think about.

John Jantsch (07:36.046)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (07:40.712)

So this system is nothing like, in this case, Dave Ramsey system. What it does is it's based upon what I call behavioral intercepts. Commitment devices is the technical term in behavioral psychology. Understand your current natural path of behavior instead of trying to change how you behave, deprivation, these external spreadsheets or apps or whatever. Instead, look at what you're naturally doing and put commitment devices in that pathway that assure that you will get what you want. And the beautiful part is

You don't need to change yourself. Just keep doing what you're doing with a system that directs the outcome that you desire.

John Jantsch (08:16.974)

So in Profit First, to be one of the things that you introduced that, you know, I hate to like go, well, duh. But for a lot of people, you know, everybody goes like, pay yourself first, have, you know, put away for taxes. I mean, everybody gets that, but you created the bucket or envelope system for that, which was basically just what they should be doing, but you kind of enabled it and put it in front of them. And all of a it was like, no, it became a habit. Is that...

Mike Michalowicz (08:28.018)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (08:39.39)

Correct.

John Jantsch (08:45.134)

The same thing that you're talking about in a lot of ways that that that it's habits It's not like I'm never gonna spend this it's I'm gonna have a set of habits that are gonna serve my objective

Mike Michalowicz (08:54.984)

Yeah, so I've deployed established systems. In fact, the envelope system goes back to biblical times. It's in actually all the religious, significant religious books and manuals. Tithing is a concept or prepaying and allocating for an intention before you quote benefit from it. And other systems like pay yourself first. That's the same idea is reserving money for an intention first. The envelope system is carving money up.

What I did was I modernized it by realizing the path that most people follow. So it's funny. I just did a presentation to a large group and I surveyed the audience. said, what's the most common money app today? And I heard rocket money because it's advertised so aggressively. heard, it's spreadsheet. I heard why NAB you need a budget, which is a great system.

John Jantsch (09:40.302)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (09:45.226)

I okay, I said, what do you log into most to manage your money? And the response was my bank. said, your bank then is your app. The most used app in the world is our bank account. And for many people in that room, they were logging in daily or multiple times a day to see how much money you have.

John Jantsch (09:55.266)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (10:04.456)

So what I did was I said, okay, there's established systems out there that work, but why aren't we all using them? Because we know they work because they don't, we don't stumble over them. They're not forced down our gullet. So that's I realized this needs to be done at the bank level. And that's why it's there.

John Jantsch (10:19.662)

So you mentioned the word budget in talking about one of the apps, but you, you, you kind of take it to task a little bit, right? I mean, that as, as far as why budgeting failed for the traditional person.

Mike Michalowicz (10:32.947)

Yeah, yeah.

This is the money habit is a real time budget. So when you spend a dollar from an account, so let me just kind of set the stage. We understand we have multiple accounts at our bank and ultimately you can get very specific, but you could have more generic ones like my essentials needs my my lattes out or whatever people like to talk about. And that's the wants. These are the mean luxuries and so forth. But you can be very specific. My wife and I have a mortgage account, for example, and we allocate money to that account every day.

John Jantsch (11:00.578)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (11:04.584)

Well, what happens is it's a real time budget. So when I log into my bank account, if the money is there, I know exactly how much is there. Once the money gets transferred over to pay my mortgage or I go out and have that latte or whatever it is, I only use debit cards. I will see that money instantly withdrawn and next time I log in, I know what's truly available. So it's living with you at a real time. I do want to add one little asterisk. I say I only use debit cards. I only use debit cards linked to those accounts.

I do still use credit cards. think credit cards can be a valuable tool when managed right. So I'm not rejecting.

John Jantsch (11:32.44)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:39.086)

Yeah, those airline points. mean, I love them. All right. So, talk a little bit about that idea. You hinted at it, but first people don't know the idea of separating money by purpose. know, instead of, so you are literally talking about, instead of like, here's my checking account, it's here's my aid accounts that are separated by purpose and I'm making allocations, which probably freaks some banks out. I mean, it's hard to open an account in some banks.

Mike Michalowicz (11:41.438)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:08.302)

So I know you've also developed some banking relationships too.

Mike Michalowicz (12:12.828)

I do. And we have a website called money habit bank calm. So you can find a

banks that support this. There's one bank in particular that's really aggressive. It's called Dream First. And when I say aggressive, they're actively supporting this and love it. And they focus on personal finances. But if you go to moneyhabitbank.com, that's the site. Yeah, some banks will resist it. Here's the irony is when people use Profit First, and this is a derivative of Profit First, it's not total.

Totally new. Prefers, we have over 1.1 million deployments of it. So we have a lot of case studies under our belt. Money habit is now starting to get some serious momentum. have, we think about 10,000 books in circulation. It's kind of hard to measure, but so the deployments are coming in, actually the emails are coming in actively of what we ask people, when did you set it up? us, tell me. And what we're finding is,

Some banks say, why are you saying all these accounts when you do in person, but when you're online, that friction's gone away. You just click and you click and you click and click. And it's surprising how many banks, particularly regional small banks, will do no fee, no balance necessary accounts. So do it online. You won't experience that.

John Jantsch (13:14.51)

That's true.

Mike Michalowicz (13:27.114)

But I also suggest you start off slow. think setting up eight accounts or five or ten, whatever you want, is a little overwhelming. You can actually start the money habit with just one account. And I call it the worry or wonder account. And it's real simple. Whatever is the most frequent financial concern that you have for some people, it's like

Can I cover the rent or the mortgage for other people's like, Hey, can I pay groceries today? Can I afford that? And for some people, and it seems pretty common is retirement. Like do I have enough money to retire? Whatever is the thing that comes to you most frequently or the first thing that pops your mind, set that account. And let's just for easy sake, say it's mortgage. And let's just say is $4,000 a month, which ironically is pretty close to my darn mortgage, but it's 4,000 bucks and say I get paid once a week.

John Jantsch (13:50.007)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (14:06.862)

You

Mike Michalowicz (14:10.758)

Every week I'm going to allocate $1,000 to the mortgage account to assure I cover the nut. Now what's interesting is that starts alleviating some of worry because I'm always worried if I can pay the mortgage. Now I know with confidence, but the magic isn't there. The magic's in the remainder because what you start seeing is, I only have XYZ available for the rest of my lifestyle. It starts bringing subconscious kind of

John Jantsch (14:29.827)

Yeah, right.

Mike Michalowicz (14:34.94)

reaction to conscious consideration. And that's the goal of the money habit. And that's where financial independence happens. When you assert authority and control over money as opposed to it having control over you.

John Jantsch (14:45.912)

So we've kind of touched on this, but how do you begin repairing people's, you know, that have kind of this guilt and this fear and avoidance over money? Do you feel like just equipping them with this tools enough or is that going to take some deeper work?

Mike Michalowicz (15:03.742)

Yeah, for me, my wife and I took some deeper work, we came from very different perspectives. She grew up in absolute abject poverty. I grew up in middle middle middle class to upper middle class. So the whole perception was radically different. And it would cause

frustration and arguments between us. What happened was I asserted the control over money and my wife would then ask me, hey, Mike, can I go out with my friends or do I this available? And I either say yes or no, almost like a parent child relationship. The beauty of the system is it's just numbers, man, they're in front of you, you face it and you have to consider it. So when you do this by yourself, or you do it with a partner, which many people do, it gives you absolute clarity and you start teeming against it or with it.

The other thing is to start slow because if you come from a money trauma situation, it's quite appropriate to be very skeptical if this is going to work. So just start with that one account. See how it serves you. See the emotions it brings about with the awareness it brings about. Then try another account and then another account. But it's so interesting with this absolute clarity. I often find out that people are very capable because of the system. The last thing I want to share on the subject is I was at this event

And someone's like, yeah, it was like 700 people in the room. There's one guy, he grabs a microphone and goes, yeah. He goes, really interesting system. He goes like, you're already good with money because I suck with money. I'm not good with money. This isn't going to work for me. I said, hold on. In that question, you said something that's not true. I'm not good with money. I've never been good with money. I found systems that are really good with money. And so I'm perceived to be good with money, but it's because of the system. So it's very capable of working with people that aren't good with money. That's not the goal.

John Jantsch (16:29.613)

Ha!

John Jantsch (16:48.91)

I'm going to allow you to be very self-serving with this question. If somebody's got profit first, heck, maybe they're even a quasi-practitioner, do they need this book too to apply to their personal situation?

Mike Michalowicz (16:55.422)

Can you borrow a few bucks you won't borrow $1,000.

Mike Michalowicz (17:11.338)

The big question is maybe, or the answer is maybe I should say, I'm surprised how many people struggle to translate profit first to another application because a lot of us just want to follow the script. And if you're the type of person, and most of us are, I'm that type of person, I want to the prescription, then the money habit will help you because it addresses the nuances of lifestyle and income in a home, which is different than a business.

At the same time is some people have translated this on their own. That's actually how this kind of came about. I got a call from an entrepreneur who said, hey, I'm doing this in my house and it's working for me, but my employees are struggling. Can you help my employees? And that's when I realized I needed to adjust the book a little bit. for in John, in your case to support me, get the book. Just get the book.

John Jantsch (18:00.11)

That's really all I wanted you to say, So, all right, for the business owner listening right now, feels very profitable on paper, but maybe anxious in real life because that's a little bit of what you're describing. And maybe that's just the common state for entrepreneurs, right? You're always like, when's the shoe going to drop? You know, no matter how good it's going, right? Or how well it's going. So, where should they start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:03.37)

You

Mike Michalowicz (18:22.376)

Yeah, my god. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:29.031)

Because probably the first step is like, how do we relieve some of that anxiety? So where should they start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:36.535)

with their business? Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:38.092)

Yeah, or really with this concept and you know, this week, like, you know, I've got this like anxiety in my business. Or, I mean, I feel pretty good about my business. It's going pretty well, but I've got this anxiety on the other side of my life. Where should I start?

Mike Michalowicz (18:41.086)

This concept, yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (18:49.257)

Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz (18:54.844)

One of my colleagues, name's Erin Moser, said something great. We had an event and we're on stage and someone asked a similar question and she said, she looked around, she goes, if in doubt, add an account. And that's become like a mantra. And when there's concern about something, create an account that addresses that concern. For many business owners that don't have profit first in their business or they're not using the money habit at their home,

John Jantsch (19:06.986)

funny.

Mike Michalowicz (19:19.812)

it's runway is the biggest concern. Like I don't know if the other shoe is going to drop and what to do. So in that case, we often set up a profit account to ensure they're profitable. We also set up an account we call it the vault and the vault is a reserve to cover expenses for your business. Should the other shoe drop for an extended period of time months. So in our case, it's a year. That's how vaulty I am. We've ensured that our salary for every employee is covered for one year in a specific account. and the other shoe has dropped.

So, it was so interesting is when the shoe drops for us, there was a lawsuit that was ridiculous and cause off guard. there was a slowdown in business. You know, there's all these things that happen when those things happen, without having some kind of cushion or runway, we become highly reactive. That's where people do desperate things. But since we had that, we were able to move through those steps very methodically and recover to an amplitude.

John Jantsch (20:10.734)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:18.207)

I'm curious, in some of your other work you have created a licensing or a network of folks that are practitioners of what the book preaches. Is that in the works for this on a personal level?

Mike Michalowicz (20:29.898)

It is it is money habit mentors and we have 40 certified mentors already. so money habit mentors dot coms, the website is actually part of our profit first professionals because these these programs, the money habit and profit first run so in parallel. That's the umbrella organization managing it.

John Jantsch (20:42.563)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:48.118)

Nice. Awesome. Well, Mike, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Is there any place in particular you invite people to learn more about the money habit and connect with you?

Mike Michalowicz (20:56.168)

Yeah, if you if you want to learn about the book and learn about me, it's Mike motorbike dot com. No one gets public. How low it's got to be clear motorbike like the motorcycle. Some people confuse it with some other stuff. But Mike motorbike dot com. All the resources, the books, even pictures of me and you together at events are on that site.

John Jantsch (21:12.972)

No way. Awesome. Mike again, it's always great to catch up with you and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Mike Michalowicz (21:19.839)

That would be good. Thanks, John.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/UmzCKla
via IFTTT

The Business Case for Play at Work

The Business Case for Play at Work written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Overview

What if play isn’t a distraction from meaningful work, but the very thing that makes it better? In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with entrepreneur and Refinery29 co-founder Piera Gelardi to explore how a playful mindset can unlock creativity, strengthen relationships, and drive innovation in business and life.

Drawing from her new book The Playful Way, Gelardi explains why play is not something we earn after work, but a powerful tool that enhances how we work. From neuroscience insights to real-world business applications, this conversation reframes play as a strategic advantage rather than a frivolous activity.

Guest Bio

Piera Gelardi is an entrepreneur, speaker, and co-founder of Refinery29, a global media company focused on modern women’s lives across fashion, wellness, and culture. She helped grow the company from a small startup into a global brand with over $100M in revenue and 500+ employees. Gelardi is also the author of The Playful Way, where she explores how play can transform creativity, leadership, and resilience.

Key Takeaways

1. Play is a Performance Enhancer, Not a Reward
   Play isn’t something you earn after work. It is a mindset that improves creativity, problem solving, and relationships while you work.
2. Play Deprivation Has Real Consequences
   A lack of play leads to reduced resilience, limited perspective, and decreased intrinsic motivation, making work feel rigid and uninspiring.
3. Play Unlocks Innovation Through Divergent Thinking
   A playful mindset allows people to explore multiple possibilities instead of defaulting to safe, repetitive solutions.
4. There Are Multiple “Play Personalities”
   Play is not just humor or goofiness. It includes curiosity, imagination, movement, and visionary thinking, each valuable in different contexts.
5. The Playful Way vs. The Pressured Way
   Pressured means rigid, outcome focused, and driven by fear of failure.
   Playful means open, experimental, resilient, and idea generating.
6. Small Moments of Play Beat Forced Fun
   Integrating play into everyday work, not one off activities, builds authentic culture and engagement.
7. Experimentation is Play in Action
   Reframing initiatives as experiments lowers risk perception and encourages innovation, which is key to marketing and growth.
8. Leadership Sets the Tone for Play
   Leaders must model vulnerability and playfulness to create psychological safety for teams.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

• 00:01 – The Big Idea
  Why play might be the missing ingredient in meaningful work and creativity.
• 01:30 – A Playful Upbringing
  How Gelardi’s early life shaped her belief that play and productivity can coexist.
• 02:54 – The Science of Play
  Research on play deprivation and how play rewires the brain for growth and resilience.
• 04:32 – The Misconception of Play at Work
  Why play gets dismissed and how different forms of play show up in business.
• 06:57 – Innovation Through Play
  How a playful mindset leads to breakthrough ideas instead of recycled thinking.
• 09:32 – Practical Play Exercises
  Simple tools like shake breaks and curiosity questions to unlock team creativity.
• 12:28 – The Refinery29 Story
  From startup blog to global media brand and how experimentation fueled growth.
• 14:14 – Avoiding Forced Fun Culture
  Why play must be integrated into daily work, not treated as a gimmick.
• 16:56 – Play in Marketing
  How experimentation and low risk testing led to the viral success of 29 Rooms.
• 19:50 – Reconnecting With Play as Adults
  Why we lose playfulness and how to rediscover it through small actions.

Memorable Quotes

“Play is not the opposite of seriousness. It is what makes seriousness bearable.”

“When we think of something as an experiment, it stops feeling so high stakes, and that is when creativity opens up.”

“Playfulness creates the most innovative ideas, the best relationships, and the resilience to work through problems.”

Where to Learn More

• Book: The Playful Way available at major booksellers
• Website: pieragelardi.com
• Instagram and Substack: @pieraluisa

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:01.184)

What if the very thing most adults dismiss as frivolous is actually the key to better ideas, deeper connection and more resilient work? Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Piera Ghilardi. You know, I'm going to do that over again because I practiced that and I got it wrong. So yeah, Ghilardi, like gelato or something.

Piera Gelardi (00:23.822)

It's like hair gel, it's gel already. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, like gelato, exactly.

John Jantsch (00:31.636)

Yeah. Okay. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantz and my guest today is Piera Jalardi. She's an entrepreneur, speaker and co-founder of Refinery29, whose new book, The Playful Way, argues that play is not a distraction from meaningful work and life, but a practical mindset that can help us navigate creativity, change, relationships, and even adversity.

with more curiosity and possibilities. So, Piero, welcome to the show.

Piera Gelardi (01:03.886)

Thanks for having me. Let's play.

John Jantsch (01:05.546)

So I'm sure one of the first questions that you get asked all the time is, because so many of us, especially people of my generation, it's like, you didn't get to play it till you got your homework done. And so how, or when for you, I should actually ask it that way. Cause you argue that it's not something that we earn, that it's actually something that enhances how we work. When did that become true for you?

Piera Gelardi (01:30.776)

So I was fortunate to grow up in a really playful family and to have parents who were playful while they navigated growing businesses, having families, dealing with illness and loss. And so I got to see how playfulness could, and the curiosity and creativity that comes with playfulness could actually weave into every aspect of our life. So playfulness was something that was sort of baked into me. But then of course, like most adults, I rubbed up against

know, teachers that wanted me to do things a certain, you know, straight line way, wanted me to, to, you know, sit still and go from point A to point B. I went into workplaces that also expected a certain degree of seriousness and, you know, seriousness in terms of rigidity. And so I did definitely rubbed up against places that, you know, told me that play and playfulness was something frivolous with something that we do, you know, after our homework is done, after our hard work is done.

But what I found in my life and in my work was that integrating play created the best results. It created the most innovative ideas, the best relationships, and the most resilience for me to work through the problems that came up.

John Jantsch (02:44.028)

Is, I believe you a hundred percent and totally agree with it. Is there any research that you've done or that you've studied that kind of backs this up scientifically as well?

Piera Gelardi (02:54.466)

Yeah, there's a lot of research about the power of play. also there's research about play deprivation, which is something that I experienced in a period of work where I was trying to present in a serious way. So I packed up my playfulness and tried to kind of show up in a way that was zipped up in my serious suit, basically. And

Play deprivation leads to us being less resilient, having less of a solutions minded attitude, having less of a big perspective on what there is in life. And so we end up not having that intrinsic motivation that helps us to drive us forward, that helps us to feel, to find joy and excitement in our day to day, to find connection with each other. There's also a lot of science also around like the neuroscience of.

sort of that playful experimental mindset and how when we try something new, you know, these neural pathways are reshaping our brain. So when we're in that play state, we're in a much more open-minded experimental framework where we can actually learn and grow versus getting really stuck and being set back by failure, which is when we're in that perfectionistic, serious mindset, we're trying to control the outcome. We're trying to, you know,

get it exactly right, we tend to be less open-minded, we tend to not be able to deal with the change, the uncertainty, the setbacks in the same sort of pliable, resilient way that we can when we're in that playful mindset.

John Jantsch (04:32.893)

So, I think a lot of business owners, we've come a long way, I think a lot of business owners get the idea of doing creative exercises, kind of opens up dialogue and different things. But when you use the word play, do you sometimes get pushback because people have a bias about, that's goofing around, that's not serious, that's not who we are? mean, so does the word play itself actually cause some issues for you?

Piera Gelardi (04:57.676)

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of anti-play sentiment because we sort of associate play with one mode of play, but there's a lot of ways to be playful. So we sort of think of, and in the book I have these eight archetypes of play. So I think the one that people most associate with play is the joyful gesture, right? That's like the class clown. That's the one that, you know, making things light, that's bringing humor.

John Jantsch (05:00.661)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (05:22.594)

And that person actually can be so powerful in diffusing tension and helping to relieve stress and helping us to laugh so that we can actually get to a solution faster. But they're definitely the one that people feel is, I think it's the most controversial in the workplace. And though they really are powerful and there's also a lot of research about the power of humor in problem solving, in stress relief.

in relationship building. But there's so but there's that's only one way of being playful, right? That being humorous, being light, there's, you know, curiosity is a huge element of play. So there's the curious question that someone that asks a lot of questions that's intellectually going down these rabbit holes, and they're really powerful to have in the workplace, because they help you to think differently by introducing, you know, introducing questions and new ways of thinking.

There is the visionary dreamer. That's the person that is, you know, we might think of them as having their head in the clouds, right? They're often the negative side as they're seen as the dreamer, the unrealistic one, but they're also the one that's looking beyond what is immediately in front of us. They're not trying to just replicate the same thing over and over again. They're really opening up possibility in new ways. So there are lot of different ways to be playful. And so I think

One thing that I'm trying to do is educate people about these different modes of play so that we can understand how to value them and how to bring them into the workplace in different ways.

John Jantsch (06:57.184)

So I imagine a lot of people, one of the use cases a lot of people probably can relate to is the idea of team building. You there's nothing sort of, you let your guard down, you're vulnerable, you do something that's not you necessarily, you don't think it's you and team building. But talk to me a little bit about innovation because I'm guessing that that's a place where this really shines as well because, know, innovation takes meaning.

You can't fail. can't make a mistake. And you know, I think that that's probably inherent in some play, isn't it?

Piera Gelardi (07:32.172)

Yeah. So I think of it sort of, there's the pressured way and there's the playful way. And the pressured way is when we're trying to control the outcome. We are rigid. We might feel like tight in our body. and that is often like when we're really zipped up tight in our serious suit and we're very, very afraid of failure. the playful way is when we have that curiosity to us, when we're looking at a problem from multiple different angles.

John Jantsch (07:36.746)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (08:01.218)

we're floating unexpected ideas. And it allows us to really find these innovative ways to move forward. And so, yeah, play is the, mean, the most effective brands and companies integrate some sort of play into what they do. The companies that are the most innovative know that that's how you create experiences that people feel. That's how you go outside of the cookie cutter idea.

Often when we go in that pressured way, we're just replicating past, you know, past success or replic or copying other people's formats. We're not creating something new. And when you think about a kid, right, like they're looking at a cardboard box and they're seeing that it can be a pirate ship. can be, you know, it can be a spaceship. It's a closet. It's all these different things. And that's divergent thinking. And of course that's, you know, we might not think that's a very practical example in the workplace, but

If you're looking at a problem, you want someone that can think about all the different ways you could go about it. And so what play does is it opens up our minds to that divergent thinking. And that's where the big solutions, the big unlocks come from.

John Jantsch (09:12.118)

So I imagine, I'm just guessing, that you have a series of exercises that you could bring to people and say, OK, for the next 10 minutes, we're going to do X, Y, and Z. Can you showcase a couple of things that you find to be really effective at getting people to do whatever behavior it is the company's trying to support?

Piera Gelardi (09:32.662)

Yeah. So a couple of really simple ones, you know, that I, I did a lot at Refinery29 were, one is actually a physical shake break. which, you know, can be controversial in the workplace because people feel really self-conscious and, know, it can be hard to get people to move, but honestly, I found it to be so effective because so often you're going into a meeting, right? And you're holding onto whatever frustrating conversation you had, or you're still thinking about.

you know, how you're going to deal with the thing on your to-do list. Also, there can be a power dynamic, like often when people were coming into my office, have a meeting with me, you know, I'm the boss, they're feeling, you know, nervous about like, are they going to say the right thing? And so as the leader, I think it's really important to be the one that's making a fool of yourself to a certain extent, you know, doesn't have to be huge, but you, yeah, you need to be vulnerable. You need to be the one that shows that it's okay to play.

John Jantsch (10:25.398)

Lead by example.

Piera Gelardi (10:33.541)

because that's the only way to get people to do it. I would, when people would come into my office, I would say, okay, we're gonna do a 30 second shake break. I would do this improv exercise called crazy eights where you shake, you count down from eight, like shaking your one arm, the other arm, one arm, one leg, the other leg. And what would happen is, know, it was like I'm...

I'm being silly, so then everyone else is following suit. And at the end, no one's cool. No one is serious. And we all kind of have let our guard down. It evens the playing field. It opens us up. It allows us to create a certain space where ideas can flow a little bit more easily. I'm also a big fan of just simple curiosity questions. So these can be, you know, these can be.

really silly and just unexpected or they can you know, they can be on topic but introducing questions that force people to You know think in a new way I think is a really simple and sort of low stakes way to bring play in Another one is imagination. So a question I loved to float to my team was what would what would need to be true for this to happen?

Because so often we're sort of stuck on a problem. We're stuck on the old ways of doing things. We're stuck on the obstacles. So sometimes, yeah, why it won't work. So sometimes asking a question like that, like what would need to be true in order for us to do this is a great way to open up that possibility, that possibility thinking.

John Jantsch (11:58.186)

Yeah, right. Why it won't work.

John Jantsch (12:17.12)

Talk to me a little bit about Refinery29. I know the book is kind of drawn from some of your experiences there, but talk a little bit about what Refinery29 does.

Piera Gelardi (12:28.194)

Yeah, so Refinery29 is a global media company focused on 360 degrees of a woman's life. So everything from health and wellness to beauty, fashion. we started as a, we basically essentially started as a blog and we grew into a company that was doing experience, these huge experiential events across the US and internationally doing video film.

John Jantsch (12:39.99)

Mmm.

Piera Gelardi (12:56.942)

all kinds of different media outlets. So yeah, it started, you know, it started, I started it when I was 24 and it was this small niche thing and it grew into a company that had a hundred million dollars in revenue and 500 employees globally.

John Jantsch (13:00.67)

And so.

John Jantsch (13:15.274)

So did some of the work that shows up in the book, did it come from those experiences and from how you kept those playful and energetic?

Piera Gelardi (13:25.612)

Yeah, so the book is full of stories from a lot of different moments in my life. But some of the ones are from my time at Refinery29, the problems that we solved and the innovation that we unlocked through bringing play into the workplace.

John Jantsch (13:44.032)

So I'm sure there's a fine line. mean, people may listen to this, read the book and go, you're right, we need to bring more play in. How do you make it part of the culture and not a gimmick? We've all seen that. The CEO goes off to a conference and listens to a workshop and the next thing you know, for five minutes we're doing this now. So how do you bring it in as something?

that has value, that's not forced, that's not gimmicky, not performative.

Piera Gelardi (14:14.99)

Yeah, that's so critical. think so often companies when they want to integrate play, they sort of do that forced fun. The moment that employees feel is forced fun, right? And it's a one-off thing. In the book, I really talk about how play is something, you we think of play as sort of this time out or this thing that we do as a reward for hard work, but play is the most effective when it is integrated into the day-to-day in small moments. So I think...

One is understanding the different modes of play and starting to understand within your team what the different archetypes of play that people are so that you can really leverage those and you can understand, you know, what is going to light those, light those people up. you know, a curious questor who's, who's following those intellectual threads and curiosity is going to be, you know, going to light up from something really different from a mover and shaker that's more someone who finds

who finds play in their physical body through movement. So there's very different modes of play. So I think the first thing is understanding within the team, what are the different play strengths that people have? What are the powers of play that you have that you're working with? The next is to, I do this thing called plork, which is how do we fuse play and work in small moments? So that can be really small. can be, you know,

John Jantsch (15:15.595)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:35.722)

Mm.

Piera Gelardi (15:41.55)

introducing a curiosity question at the beginning of a meeting. can be renaming meeting invites with something that's a little bit more whimsical. So it doesn't feel like an anxiety attack when you see your calendar. It's these little moments that you commit to and you brainstorm as a team. So you think about, okay, once you understand these powers of play that the team has, how can you integrate those day to day in small ways?

John Jantsch (15:52.352)

Right.

Thank

Piera Gelardi (16:11.554)

what are those play plus work moments that become part of the culture so that you are really integrating it and finding those moments of connection, creativity, curiosity in the day to day versus just putting a play bandaid on like at that one offset.

John Jantsch (16:29.352)

Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't really thought of people having play personalities, but it sounds like that's a bit what you're describing. So we've talked mostly about internal team and culture. How could people use this in a marketing sense? So in other words, be more playful in their public, you know, what they're putting out there to be perceived as, you know, a fun and playful company.

Piera Gelardi (16:34.861)

Yeah.

Piera Gelardi (16:56.002)

Yeah, I think in terms of bringing it into a marketing context, it's really about how can we do something different? How can we bring an experimental mindset to how we market? I tend to find that when we think of things as an experiment, and again, there's this neuroscience around this, but when we think of something as an experiment, we open up a lot more possibility and we stop.

John Jantsch (17:09.206)

Mm-hmm.

Piera Gelardi (17:24.13)

having it stops feeling so high stakes that we can't fail that we can't try new things. So I think one thing is, you know, thinking about what are the experiments that we want to run here? What's something that would be interesting to try? You know, can we try it in a can we try it in a small way? And then build off of that. That was something we did a lot of refinery. We were constantly experimenting. So we'd say

You know, for example, we did this huge experiential event called 29 rooms that went to seven cities, hundreds of thousands of people came through. but it started from just one event where we said, you know, we're noticing this behavior of how people are using Instagram. And so why don't we do, why don't we do something in our photo studio at the office where we invite photographers to come in, we give them all kinds of props, access to models and access to clothes and let them, you know,

express their creativity and tag us. And so that was the experiment, was just doing that. So it was a very low stakes, low cost experiment. And we saw this huge Instagram sharing that came from this one office event. And so then we said, okay, do we do that again and make it a little bit bigger? So then we did it in partnership with.

museum in New York, we brought in a fashion brand to provide the looks and we tried it again and we again saw this huge like exponential return from it. And then, you know, then it was like the next piece, okay, like let's pop up an event. It was a smaller scale event. Again, saw huge success. And so that was when we decided to take the gamble and put on this huge, this huge event where we brought in brands, celebrities, you know, it was like, and that that became something that was

huge, we were hugely known for and that became really copied. was on every, you know, every brand was referencing it and trying to replicate the 29 rooms, you know, effect. So, but it came from that experimental mindset of saying, okay, what if we tried this and what's the smallest, what's the smallest way we can try it within our resources to see if this has legs.

John Jantsch (19:18.901)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:31.638)

All right, now that you've written the book and it's, upon when people are listening to this, it's going to be out there for public consumption. Is there anything that you hope, especially adults, relearn about themselves by considering this topic?

Piera Gelardi (19:50.306)

Yeah, I think in adulthood, through the course of having the strict teacher that tells you to sit still, having the boss that shuts down your humorous aside, there's through feeling the weight of responsibility and thinking that play is antithetical to being the responsible adult. There's all these moments where we start to shut down our playfulness. And as a result, we lose that curiosity.

we lose that resilience and we lose the flexibility that play brings into our lives. And that makes us lose touch with ourselves really. It makes us like lose touch with our true essence. when we think about our relationships too, right? Like what are the things that you remember the most about your friends, your family? It's often these inside jokes, these silly moments, these playful pieces.

And so when we start to become that very serious adult, we start to shut down what really makes us authentic, what makes us connect authentically and what makes us come alive. So, you know, in adulthood, starting to reconnect with that playful spirit, you know, even just in small ways, I tell people, go back to the lost and found. Like think about your childhood and what made you lose track of the hours, what completely immersed you.

and see if there's something in there that you want to re-explore. So, you know, maybe it was dancing when you were a kid and you want to like think about going to a dance class again, or maybe it was beach combing and you were just like, loved looking at, you know, looking for sea glass on the beach. You know, is there, do you want to go for a walk in your neighborhood and see if you can, you know, turn it into a wonder wander and find, you know, these moments of delight. So re-engaging, like starting in small ways, but just.

being open to the fact that playfulness is going to unlock a lot of richness and joy and aliveness in your life. So it's really worthwhile to pursue it. Play is not the opposite of seriousness. It's what makes seriousness bearable. It's what makes you find joy in the day to day and the mundane.

John Jantsch (22:09.178)

Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the podcast. Where would you invite people to find out more about your work? Find out where they can pick up a copy of the book.

Piera Gelardi (22:19.522)

Yeah, so they can pick up the book, The Playful Way. It's at all major booksellers starting April 7th. And you can find me on Instagram and Stub Stack at Pierrealuisa and my website, pieragillardi.com.

John Jantsch (22:33.878)

Awesome. Well, again, Pierre, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we're running into you one of these days out there on the road.

Piera Gelardi (22:38.646)

Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for playing.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email updates

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.

powered by

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ift.tt/j5ImubF
via IFTTT