AI Works Best as a Teammate, Not a Tool

AI Works Best as a Teammate, Not a Tool written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch speaks with Lauren Esposito, Chief Marketing Officer at Asymbl. They explore how the meaning of “hybrid workforce” has changed in the age of AI, why digital labor should be treated like human teammates, and what organizational shifts are necessary to succeed in the future of work.

Guest Bio – Lauren Esposito

Lauren Esposito is the Chief Marketing Officer at Asymbl, a workforce orchestration company helping businesses scale hybrid teams made of human and digital labor. Previously, she led global brand and media strategy at Salesforce and holds an MBA from Butler University.

Key Takeaways

• Hybrid Workforce Redefined: AI-powered digital workers are now part of the team—not just tools.
• Digital Labor as Teammates: To get ROI, organizations must manage and coach digital workers like employees.
• Organizational Shift: Success requires business and IT collaboration; leaders must take ownership of AI implementation.
• Start Small: Begin where you already use tech, then scale use cases as trust and understanding grow.
• Customer Trust Matters: Automations must reduce friction and preserve human connection options.

Great Moments (Time-Stamped)

• 00:43 – Asymbl’s mission: hybrid workforces with human + digital talent
• 01:35 – Rethinking what “hybrid” means in the age of AI
• 03:32 – The balance between fear and opportunity with AI
• 05:41 – Why business leaders must own AI success
• 10:27 – How to start implementing digital workers without disruption
• 13:41 – Marketing digital labor to stakeholders and customers
• 16:47 – Siloed data and the road to autonomous agents
• 19:51 – Predicting the future of hiring and hybrid teams

Quotes

“When treated like part of your team, digital labor delivers more ROI than just using AI tools.”

“Start small. You don’t have to redesign everything—just get one job off your plate and build from there.”

Connect with Lauren Esposito and Assemble

Website: Asymbl LinkedIn: Lauren Esposito

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.421)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Lauren Esposito. She's a chief marketing officer at Asymbl, a leading global marketing strategies to drive brand growth. Before Assemble, she spent over a decade at Salesforce in senior leadership roles, including vice president of global brands and media and shaping brand strategy and audience engagement. Lauren holds an MBA from Butler University and combines strategic leadership with creative execution.

Elevator symbols market position. So, Lauren, welcome to the show.

Lauren Esposito (00:36.462)

Thank you, John. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:38.367)

So I guess we ought to say you don't have to give the full pitch, but let's set the table. What's a simple

Lauren Esposito (00:43.682)

Yeah, absolutely. So Assemble is a workforce orchestration company. And we bring together recruiting technology so you can hire your human workers, a digital labor advisory practice so you can onboard digital workers alongside them, and then really strong platform and technology expertise that brings it all together. And so essentially, we're here to help businesses design, manage, and scale a hybrid workforce of both human and digital workers to drive more meaningful business impact.

John Jantsch (01:11.639)

You've practiced that. That was brilliant. So let's, I'm glad you mentioned hybrid workforce, because that was going to be my first question. Pre-pandemic, maybe even somewhat before that, a hybrid workforce was some that worked from home and some that worked in the office. So how has that completely changed in the age of AI? The term hybrid workforce means something different now, doesn't

Lauren Esposito (01:35.434)

Yes, definitely it does. mean, technology has been around for quite some time now, as well as our globalization and ability to work from anywhere. In this new frame, we kind of realized this term had new meaning in going through the AI explosion ourselves, right? As a small business with high growth, we were trying to implement a lot of these tools and technologies and agentic solutions.

And like many of us, we're struggling with that. And we had a big aha moment when we realized it's not just a tool or a piece of technology. If we think about this as a worker, like another part of our team, just like we would a new hire or an employee, we got so much more value and ROI out of it. So for us, that's how we're thinking about hybrid workforces too now. And so your digital labor.

John Jantsch (02:13.283)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren Esposito (02:25.868)

as a part of your workforce. It's yes, the tools and technology, but it's the way you implement and orchestrate that knowledge, that intelligence, that memory to get work done in the places you are.

John Jantsch (02:37.461)

Yeah, I see so many people that originally kind of latched onto AI tools as like, here's just, here's another tool to do things faster. And all they really were doing was moving one set of tactics to another bucket, so to speak. And in some cases working harder than ever, you know, rather than getting the efficiencies. So, you know, a lot of the talk around AI, you're calling them digital workers, but you know, lot of people are still very much about, AI is going to replace people. And there's a real risk and there's a real fear. In fact, I

I read an article recently that said something like 93 % of workers use AI today and only about 27 % of them are admitting it. You know, because I think there's this real fear that that's going to wipe out the company. So you as somebody that's trying to help people balance both of those, I mean, you're bringing digital workers to places where humans work today. So how do you kind of balance that with, hey, this is going to be OK?

Lauren Esposito (03:32.407)

No, it's a great question. I mean, full transparency had some of the similar feelings and thoughts myself. What I have experienced firsthand, though, I think is there are so many different AI solutions and tools offering features and functionality out there. And in these siloed ways, they're far, far from replacing us, in my opinion, because

you know, humans are still very relational and the way that we transact still requires, right? Like strategic thinking, creative innovation, relationships, right? We've been promising in marketing for how long, you know, right message at the right time and the right channel. And we're still hardly, you know what I mean? Delivering on that in a one-to-one way. And while I do think AI again, takes us a step closer to that, you know, it doesn't speak with

emotion and empathy and compassion. doesn't meet us, you know, from a design perspective there. So we really see it as a tool that's elevating, you know, humans and employees into doing things that it feels more meaningful. I don't have to be bogged down, you know, in data and in deep analysis or, you know, my research process can be elevated or some automations can be more trusted.

But there's still a requirement for me to participate. And in this hybrid ecosystem, it really puts accountability on you as an individual to say, I'm going to build a digital worker to be a part of this team, just like I would an employee, I'm going to review, meet, coach, manage that individual, that worker. And so there's really an intricate relationship in what we've seen that companies are getting success out of it. It can't be a set it and forget it.

And AI can just do it on its own and it's going to take over and replace us. Now, who's to say where the technology goes and what that unlocks and the impact? Of course, there's impact with any evolution, right, that we go through. But I'm choosing to remain an optimist in this one.

John Jantsch (05:41.781)

So if we're gonna move from robots to teammates, which is what you're suggesting, do there have to be some pretty big organizational shifts to make that real? I culturally, operationally, you're gonna have a 30 minute one-on-one with your digital coworker. mean, how do organizations have to change to actually get a new mindset?

Lauren Esposito (05:44.674)

Hmm

Lauren Esposito (06:05.398)

I think it's the best question you could have asked. Right now, a lot of organizations are seeing like, okay, it's another tool of technology. My IT team is going to decide what right tools and technology are potentially the best for me, approve it, implement it, and set it up for me. The reality though is those configurations, implementations of those tools don't often result in like really meaningful impact.

I'm sure you can get an outline or research, right? But they're not really taking over jobs to be done and full outputs because it doesn't have the memory and the context. So the biggest change is business leaders and right coming to the table to be a partner with IT and take accountability for the success of the AI. And what that means is, my IT department, you know, we just launched an SDR agent, you know, a couple months ago to help us right with our sales capacity. Our IT team.

didn't have the experience to understand what a human SDR goes through, right, to drive high quality engagement and get results back. They needed us to come to the table and psychologically kind of map that out so that we could then say, well, what needs to be documented? What information? Where do we want to engage with that? You know, it's not just in our CRM system, which is Salesforce. We also wanted to be notified in Slack when our SDR was closing the lead, right? Just like the rest of our sales team engages. So it's thinking, you know, what,

What knowledge and information do they need? Where in the flow of work, right? Are they going to operate? And then yeah, you do need ongoing coaching. So that's why we keep talking about as a part of your workforce strategy, because you're, know, human employees don't perform on day one. So you probably can't expect your right digital workers to do that either. And it takes time to understand what you've provided to them. What are they capable of doing and not doing what

John Jantsch (07:45.591)

Yeah.

Lauren Esposito (07:55.734)

additional coaching and feedback might they need? What other information sources might they need to be connected to and so on? So we do have one-to-ones with our digital workers every week reviewing that output and optimization that we can feedback. But the cultural change for me was really when business leaders came to the table and realized like they're fully responsible for this and IT is their partner and not the other way around.

John Jantsch (08:20.929)

Yeah, yeah, I've seen many people advise to don't stick AI adoption in IT, you know, and forget it and say they're gonna, you because it just won't, it won't work. On that same similar point, at least, I think a lot of people think, okay, I have a function to be done, I'm going to hire somebody for that, here's going to be their job description. You know, okay, great, it's gonna be a digital person, but you know, here's the job description. So

Do they have to actually, do you believe that there needs to be different conversations about how work actually gets done? Who's doing what? How roles are divided? This may be totally different than what we've done before because we're dealing with a whole different flow and process.

Lauren Esposito (09:06.253)

Yeah, I mean, we're so new to it that I think absolutely as we continue to iterate and learn and every business is different, right? We could all be using the same tools, but we still maintain competitive advantages because of the way we get work done, right? And the way that we think about our processes or the information and the individuality and uniqueness, right? That those employees bring. So similarly, you know, we did have to take a step back because

Conversationally, humans can exchange information, retain it, right? And act accordingly. And that's not how digital workers do. You really have to document that. And that's a new muscle, right? To really think about, well, how would I take that action? And what did I need to take that action? I needed access. I needed information. I needed maybe an approval, right? What have you. So it really is a reflection, you know, as much of like,

knowledge and information as process and, and efficiency that you want the beauty of it though. Because it does sound like a lot of work and it in upfront, I think it is right, start small, you don't have to, to resolve your entire workforce and change your entire ways of doing things by any means, right? It's just saying, hey, if I could get this one job to be done off my plate, it would free me up right to maybe take on some other so start there.

John Jantsch (10:13.027)

Yeah.

Lauren Esposito (10:27.631)

Start with where your technology investments already exist. Almost everyone has an AI application or solution for you. Build around what you know and play with it so you can learn. It's there that then the aha moments happen and you can start to contextualize how vast this could go and prioritize your biggest use cases to drive value back for the business.

John Jantsch (10:51.619)

And how, I mean, what role does specialization play? Because again, you know, we've all worked in organizations where this is your job, but we also need you to take sales calls. And we also need you to design, you know, brochures. we, so now we can actually have five digital workers, right, that are very specialized in doing those tasks. So we have to think about the org chart differently, don't we?

Lauren Esposito (11:03.918)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. There are so many shared, yeah, like actions, you know, across different functions, especially in small business, we all wear many hats.

And we're kind of working on this idea and philosophy of digital twinning. So we've got an entire group of really seasoned and highly experts in our engineering department delivering value for our customers and solving some of their biggest business needs. Well, each of those engineers has different speciality and are called in for different things. So while the foundation of their digital twin

is similar in terms of what access it might have and what task it can perform and what information it has access to. The way they coach and manage it, right, varies. And so it also doesn't have to be one-to-one. can now, I can partner, right, with my chief revenue officer, for example, on our SDR, you know, digital worker. And we both can kind of feed in.

and then they can expand much more easily and are much more adaptable than our human workforce. Right. So the benefit being, you know, capacity constraints are, you know, not fully removed, but, somewhat. and so you can think about that. Now the limitations I think of AI too, or just as if you've ever gone super deep, you know, in one of your chats, the more focused your engagement with a specific tool on a task, right. The more quality comes out of that. And that's kind of the idea of like.

Lauren Esposito (12:40.735)

you might have to orchestrate multiple tools for different tasks, right, to accumulate what a worker is able to accomplish to drive an outcome. And that's the, I think that's a bigger shift than getting too lost in, who manages it and who's this worker for? It's really about just the collaboration to say, you know, here's the outcomes we want to deliver and what, how do we best orchestrate the technology to help us do that?

John Jantsch (13:05.391)

your building's

Lauren Esposito (13:07.388)

It's not, you hear that? I'm here in Brooklyn and I live next to the fire department, so.

John Jantsch (13:08.879)

Hahaha

So you hear that multiple times a day, don't you? So how are companies positioning this idea of hybrid workers as a way that kind of resonates with all the stakeholders that they might have to keep happy? Because again, we're still seeing people have moved, but we're still seeing fear, head in the sand, total adoption. mean, people are all over the place. So how are from a marketing perspective?

Lauren Esposito (13:14.892)

I do.

John Jantsch (13:41.155)

Because also, know, one of the stakeholders, big stakeholders, the customer. What does the customer think about the fact that a digital SDR is talking

Lauren Esposito (13:50.117)

No, a couple things inside of that. It's so new that I don't know that we're seeing organizations adopt this yet. I am actually in the lab. We really came to market 90 days ago with this point of view, even a little bit more to start hitting it hard. And we were for sure ahead of the curve, but I'm seeing trends catch up to that. You're seeing Salesforce talk about digital labor now. You're seeing some of these big, you know, Accenture is starting to lean into this. I think.

John Jantsch (13:57.591)

Yeah.

Lauren Esposito (14:18.628)

The idea that we have to pivot who's responsible for that investment and ongoing success is really big. the benefit too being once you kind of have that institutional knowledge.

it doesn't go away, right? When your employees walk out the door, that can leave a gap in information on how things get done and set you back until you rehire. Here, you're building that kind of brain, if you will, and that gets to stay with the business long term. So you're retaining that, and that makes onboarding and future iterations there more successful. I do think we haven't figured out where our consumer preference is yet.

you know, on how much we want to engage with it, right? I mean, I still call customer service and hit pound and zero over and over again, right? Until I can get a human on the line. And I imagine for many of us that might not change unless the experience really is so smooth, you know what I mean? That I'm getting exactly what I look for. you know, that'll be an ebb and a flow, but I do believe that as humans, we're always going to want an alternate path.

John Jantsch (15:07.747)

Yeah.

Lauren Esposito (15:30.448)

you know, into that human connection and relationship. And how do we as brands make sure that, you know, we think about that and give people choices and not just stick them, you know what I mean, in a workflow that they can't get out of and being mindful of that consumer choice and empowerment, I think can build trust not only with your AI, right, or digital worker that they're interfacing long term with you as the brand as well.

John Jantsch (15:41.251)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:54.115)

Yeah, think the way I look at it is automations have to be a convenience for the user and not add friction. A lot of early on people have said, oh, we don't have to talk to people if we put this up here. And so I think that that's how people experience it. But I think companies are looking, because there are definitely times when that's more convenient. Scheduling an appointment, doing things I don't need to get on the phone for that, that's more convenient. That's a great use of it. One of the things that

Early on, think a lot of people adopted AI and it was very much, hey, this is an assistant. And we're moving now towards, at least the talk is, we're moving now towards autonomous agents who will actually be able to not only take action but make decisions. How big is the problem of siloed data making that a reality?

Lauren Esposito (16:47.414)

I mean, incredibly, right? Large. The reality is you still have to educate and train any of these tools and digital workers. So you have to have the right data. I think that it's a big mix between cleaning it and kind of pile it and starting fresh of what you have and figuring out how to add things into it. But

Eventually what I think is kind of interesting and an example here to put it in practicality, right? We have some digital workers who are like assistants, right? Instead of having like an executive assistant right now. And so every meeting that I record, right? That assistant has access to and it summarizes those insights and then it can propose recommendations, right? hey, you got to take these actions today, Lauren. You said these were your priorities or what have you for the week.

And every time I keep loading in more conversations, let's say I've changed a decision in a meeting and we decided to pivot on a project or do this, that digital worker is retaining that knowledge as well. And so I do think that bringing our current data in is much more difficult than the data that maybe you can start fresh with and like I said, just start feeding at my meetings.

But once it's structured in a way that can be read and found and orchestrated into that brain successfully, I do think that the action and the autonomous part of it is quite intriguing in certain capacities to help propose and potentially resolve blockers and things like that and code.

John Jantsch (18:28.045)

Well, I think it's more fundamental than that. totally agree with you. here's what my experience is, even with very large companies. CRM's here, sales pipeline's here, who we have to follow up in customer service tickets is here, and none of these talk to each other, which is really going to make the dream of the autonomous agent pretty tough.

Lauren Esposito (18:42.853)

Yep. Yep.

Lauren Esposito (18:50.371)

Yeah, well, I don't know if it's like, I mean, fully autonomous, sure, but we have our digital workers who are working across all of those systems. And I completely am trustworthy of its accuracy and what it's sharing with me. So I do think we've made a huge leap forward. know, it's the how much of that

do you really want it running your business too? How much creativity, innovate? You don't want to set it and forget it. So I think that there's this, yeah, there's the evolution aspect of just the natural way that we do business and we grow and we change and we pivot and we stay fresh. How do we empower ourselves to keep that up while agents are taking on the right work at the right time?

John Jantsch (19:42.723)

Well, and I think what's going to be the real hurdle is trust. You know, how much are we going to trust that agent to make purchases for us, you know, and for businesses, you know, to like, oh, inventory is at this level, go buy, you know. And I mean, when are we going to fully trust that, you know, that level? Last question for you. Looking out five years, you could say five months if you want, because who knows? But what's the workplace going to look like? How's it going to be fundamentally different from today?

Lauren Esposito (19:46.063)

Mm.

Lauren Esposito (19:51.557)

Yep.

Lauren Esposito (20:13.263)

Yeah, we hired a chief digital labor officer. I think, you know, not that everyone is going to go out and hire one of those, but I do think that we're going to see new ways of thinking about how to get work done for sure, which will require an evolution in the way that we hire, we train, we onboard and we skill our workforce.

John Jantsch (20:18.433)

Okay.

Lauren Esposito (20:40.843)

at the end of the day, talent and individuals, you can run from technology, but the more that you adapt, right, you're going to be better fit for where I think the market is headed. And then at a high level, it'll, I personally think you're going to be thinking about digital workers for jobs before you think about the way that you hire human workers. And then the roles that you hire those humans in are going to look different because they're going to be overseeing digital teammates.

you know, not just, you know, individual contributors or people leaders of people. So I really think it's going to be a hybrid.

John Jantsch (21:16.003)

Well, as I hear you talk about a chief digital worker officer, think that's what you said, labor officer, where does that lead to HR? And where are people ops? Yeah.

Lauren Esposito (21:22.609)

labor officer, yeah.

Yeah, and a core partner, right? Because the people ops side of it is very relational. And for us, have digital recruiters and digital people, digital workers that are helping, but they come together to think about, okay, great, where are we going to be making our workforce investments? What does that look like? There's still a cost to these digital workers, right? And consumption and access and licensing, just like you would. it becomes a...

you know, a conversation, you know, in talent and the right jobs to be done being done by the right individuals, but it's very much a partnership. I've heard a couple of people talk, well, this chief people officer are going to go away. And now that they're the chief AI officer. I mean, that would be a very disruptive and scary future. I think if we start abandoning, you know what I mean? Our people tend to be our highest commodity of differentiation and value to our customers.

John Jantsch (22:25.891)

Well, Lauren, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there anywhere you'd invite people to connect with you and learn more about Assemble?

Lauren Esposito (22:34.393)

Of course, thanks for having me, John. Folks can find Assemble at assemble.com. That's A-S-Y-M-B-L.com or Lauren Esposito and you can find me on LinkedIn.

John Jantsch (22:45.603)

Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Lauren Esposito (22:50.266)

Appreciate it, John. Thank you.

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Why the Traditional Agency Model Is Broken and What Comes Next

Why the Traditional Agency Model Is Broken and What Comes Next written by Sara Nay read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The traditional agency model is no longer built for today’s small businesses. In this article, Sara Nay explains the anti-agency model and how strategy-first marketing, fractional leadership, and AI can help businesses own their marketing instead of outsourcing it blindly.

---

Table of Contents

1

Living the Agency Reality From Every Side

2

What I Mean by the Anti-Agency Model

3

AI Changed the Rules Whether We Like It or Not

4

Timeless Marketing Principles Still Matter

5

The Real Danger of AI-First Thinking

6

Why Fractional Marketing Leadership Matters More Than Ever

7

What This Means for Agencies

8

Two Steps You Can Take This Week to Start Owning Your Marketing

9

AI Is Not About Replacing People. It Is About Elevating Them.

10

Final Thought

---

For the last 15 years, I have lived inside the agency world.

I have been an intern, a community manager, an account manager, a fractional CMO, and now the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing. I have seen this industry from nearly every angle. Inside the work, inside the relationships, and inside the pressure that agencies and clients both feel.

Here is the truth I could not ignore anymore.

The traditional agency model is broken.

Not because agencies are bad.
Not because marketers do not care.
But because the model itself no longer serves small businesses or the agencies trying to support them.

That realization is what led me to write Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models and to articulate what I call the anti-agency model.

Let me explain what I mean and why this moment matters more than ever.

Living the Agency Reality From Every Side

Over the years, I experienced the same challenges many agency owners quietly struggle with.

• Constant scope creep
• Difficulty scaling profitably
• Burnout among team members
• High client expectations with limited clarity
• Pressure to do more faster and cheaper

At the same time, I have spent years on the sales side of our business talking with hundreds of small business owners. I heard the same frustrations over and over again.

“Marketing does not work.”
“I am paying an agency, but I do not know what I am getting.”
“I feel disconnected from my own marketing.”

Both sides were frustrated, and neither side was wrong.

The system simply was not designed for the reality we are in now.

What I Mean by the Anti-Agency Model

Let me be clear. This is not anti-agency.

We are an agency. We have been one for over 30 years. I love agencies and believe they play a critical role.

What I am against is a model where agencies:

• Hoard execution
• Operate as black boxes
• Replace ownership with dependency
• Compete on volume instead of leadership

The anti-agency model is anti that approach.

It is a strategy-first, AI-enabled approach that helps small businesses stop renting their marketing and start owning it, while agencies evolve into leadership partners instead of outsourced task machines.

AI Changed the Rules Whether We Like It or Not

Before AI, it made sense for agencies to own execution.

• Content
• Social
• SEO
• Ads
• Email

Small businesses simply did not have the resources or tools to handle that work internally.

That is no longer true.

AI has fundamentally changed what is possible for small teams. Today, small businesses can:

• Keep execution closer to home
• Operate with leaner internal teams
• Use AI systems to handle heavy lifting
• Focus human effort on thinking, judgment, and leadership

Here is the key.

AI does not replace strategy. It makes strategy more important.

Timeless Marketing Principles Still Matter

One thing has not changed, despite all the technology.

Marketing fundamentals still matter.

In Unchained, I spend a lot of time reinforcing timeless principles, including:

1. Deep Ideal Client Understanding

AI without clarity just creates noise.

If you do not deeply understand your client’s fears, motivations, and what keeps them up at night, AI will happily produce generic content that sounds like everyone else.

Strategy comes first. Then you train your tools.

2. Core Messaging and Differentiation

Your messaging, what makes you you, must be defined before automation enters the picture.

Otherwise, AI accelerates inconsistency instead of clarity.

The foundations have not changed.
The way we use them has.

The Real Danger of AI-First Thinking

The biggest mistake I see right now is businesses jumping straight into tools.

AI amplifies whatever already exists.
If you have chaos, it amplifies chaos.
If you lack clarity, it multiplies confusion.

That is why we now say:

Strategy before tactics.
Strategy before technology.

Ask these questions first.

• What is the business trying to accomplish?
• What role should marketing play?
• How should the team be structured?
• Where does AI actually help us move faster without losing direction?

Only then do tools make sense.

Why Fractional Marketing Leadership Matters More Than Ever

Most small businesses were never able to afford a traditional marketing org chart.

• A CMO
• Plus channel specialists
• Plus support staff

AI changes that equation.

Today, the most effective structure looks like this.

• Fractional marketing leadership responsible for strategy, budget, direction, and metrics
• A lean internal team
• AI systems supporting execution underneath

This allows founders to stay in their zone of genius. Selling, leading, and growing. Not becoming accidental CMOs.

And no, the title does not matter.
Call it a fractional CMO, marketing leader, strategist, or advisor.

What matters is that someone is leading marketing strategically, not just taking orders or doing tasks.

What This Means for Agencies

If you are an agency reading this, here is the hard truth.

Execution-only services are becoming a race to the bottom.

AI will continue to get better.
Small businesses will continue to bring more execution in-house.
Margins will continue to compress.

The opportunity is not to compete against AI.

The opportunity is to lead strategy, elevate humans, design systems, guide internal teams, and work with AI instead of against it.

Agencies that evolve into leadership partners will thrive.
Those that do not will struggle to stay relevant.

Two Steps You Can Take This Week to Start Owning Your Marketing

If you are a business owner and this feels overwhelming, start here.

1. Revisit the Marketing Strategy Pyramid

Clarify your business goals, your marketing strategy, and your team structure.

Do this before tools. Do this before tactics.

2. Audit Your Current Relationships

Ask yourself:

• Do we have visibility into what is happening?
• Do we understand why we are doing what we are doing?
• Are we in control, or are we in the dark?

Ownership starts with clarity.

AI Is Not About Replacing People. It Is About Elevating Them.

One of the most powerful exercises we have done internally is asking our team to identify:

• Human-led skills
• AI-assisted skills
• Tasks that could be fully automated

Not to squeeze more output, but to help people focus on work that matters more.

That is how businesses, and careers, get future-proofed.

Final Thought

This moment is not about choosing between humans and AI.

It is about choosing between ownership and dependency.

The businesses that win will not be the ones chasing every tool.
They will be the ones leading with strategy, clarity, and intention.

That is what Unchained is really about.

If you want to learn more, visit unchainedmodel.com or connect with me on LinkedIn.

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and the author of Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. With more than 15 years of experience in the agency world, she has worked in nearly every role, from intern to fractional CMO, giving her a rare, full-spectrum view of what works and what no longer does in modern marketing. Sara is a leading voice in strategy-first marketing and the evolution of the agency model, helping small businesses and agencies stop renting their marketing and start owning it through clear strategy, strong leadership, and practical use of AI.

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Are Algorithms Making Us Stupid?

Are Algorithms Making Us Stupid? written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Spotify Wrapped is a brilliant marketing play. Every year, millions of people gleefully share their top songs, favorite artists, and most-listened-to genres, essentially turning their personal data into free advertising for the streaming giant. But while it’s fun and feels personalized, it also sheds light on something deeper—and a little unsettling—about the world we live in today.

This year, my #1 song was “Boulder to Birmingham” by Emmylou Harris. It’s a beautiful, haunting tribute to Gram Parsons, her mentor, who died of a drug overdose. My wife and I sing along every time it plays. The thing is, I never asked Spotify to play that song. Not once. And yet, it kept showing up in my mix, again and again. Along with it were several John Prine tracks I didn’t seek out either. In fact, I didn’t actively choose any of the top songs Spotify says I loved this year.

This might sound like a minor quirk in an otherwise delightful digital experience, but it’s actually symbolic of a much larger issue. Increasingly, the world around us is being curated not by us, but for us, by algorithms that interpret our past behavior and then decide what we should see, hear, and engage with next.

Sure, this applies to music. But it also affects our news feeds, our product recommendations, our search results, our social media content, the ads we’re exposed to, and even the lies we’re told. The more we click, the more the algorithm “learns” about us. And the more it learns, the narrower our world becomes.

This is the filter bubble in action. Over time, our exposure to new ideas, unfamiliar perspectives, or even just different kinds of content diminishes. We’re not discovering anymore; we’re being fed what the machine thinks we already like, or worse, what will keep us clicking.

On the surface, this kind of personalization feels convenient. But in practice, it can be dangerously limiting. It traps us in echo chambers, reinforces existing biases, and makes it harder to challenge our assumptions or grow intellectually and emotionally. When the only ideas we hear are the ones we already agree with, how do we grow?

This isn’t just a tech problem. It’s a human one. And it has consequences that reach far beyond our Spotify playlists. It’s affecting how we think, how we relate to others, and how we understand the world. It’s part of what’s driving polarization, misinformation, and a culture of outrage. We’re not just being shaped by what we consume; we’re being shaped by what we’re allowed to consume.

It doesn’t have to be this way.

The good news is that we still have agency. We can choose to seek out opposing views. We can read books from outside our usual genres. (I’m not an architect, but Christopher Alexander is one of my favorite authors). We can listen to podcasts that challenge our thinking. We can actively resist the passivity that algorithms encourage. But we must do it intentionally.

Because left to their own devices, the algorithms will not feed us what we need—they will feed us what keeps us comfortable, entertained, and clicking.

I didn’t always see it this way. For a long time, I appreciated the convenience of curated content. But now I’m convinced: algorithms, as they are currently used, are making us intellectually lazy. They’re dulling our curiosity. They’re making us stupid—not in terms of raw intelligence, but in terms of awareness, perspective, and growth.

So here’s my challenge to myself—and maybe to you too: go out and discover something. Don’t wait for it to be served up by a machine. Curate your own experience. Choose what you want to see, hear, and learn next.

Because if you don’t, someone, or something else, will do it for you. And you might just find yourself singing along to a song you never chose in the first place.

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The More Mindset: Rewiring Your Thinking for Purpose, Confidence, and Results

The More Mindset: Rewiring Your Thinking for Purpose, Confidence, and Results written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:    

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Diana Pagano—mindset coach, speaker, and author of The More Mindset. Drawing on neuroscience, quantum physics, and her own journey from struggle to success, Diana shares how to break mental barriers and rewire your mindset for greater fulfillment, confidence, and performance. Whether you’re stuck in fear or chasing success without satisfaction, Diana offers actionable ways to shift your thinking and step into your potential.

Guest Bio – Diana Pagano

Diana Pagano is an entrepreneur, mindset coach, international speaker, and the author of The More Mindset: Break Mental Limits and Step Into Extraordinary Results. With a background rooted in personal and professional transformation, she helps high achievers overcome fear, burnout, and self-doubt using neuroscience-backed strategies. Diana’s mission is to guide others to become who they were meant to be—not by doing more, but by becoming more.

Key Takeaways

• What “More” Really Means: “More” isn’t about doing more—it’s about becoming more aligned with your purpose and potential. (00:34–00:58)
• Rewiring Your Brain with Neuroscience: Interrupting negative thought patterns and telling a new story can reshape your beliefs and outcomes. (01:35–03:53)
• From Reality to Possibility: Your circumstances may be real—but how you respond to them shapes your future. Mindset drives frequency, energy, and opportunity. (04:18–07:21)
• Fear as a Signal, Not a Stop Sign: Fear is often false evidence appearing real. Recognize it as a compass pointing to growth. (07:29–10:11)
• Habits Without Mindset Don’t Work: Habits are important, but mindset is the foundation. Without the right beliefs, habits lack power. (11:42–12:39)
• Rethinking Success and Identity: Achievements can become traps when tied to identity. True fulfillment requires balance, not burnout. (12:45–15:05)
• Real Client Breakthroughs: Diana shares transformation stories from her coaching practice, where clarity and belief unlocked extraordinary growth. (15:11–19:48)
• The First Step for Anyone Feeling Stuck: Change the channel. Interrupt negative thought loops and reframe your mental state to shift into possibility. (20:08–21:49)

Great Moments (Time-Stamped)

• 00:34 – The true meaning of “more” in mindset
• 01:52 – How neuroscience and the RAS system shape your actions
• 04:18 – Diana’s story of growing up in poverty and reframing struggle
• 07:57 – Understanding fear and false assumptions
• 11:42 – Why habits alone won’t create real change
• 13:11 – Chasing success vs. finding personal fulfillment
• 15:19 – Coaching breakthroughs: Clarity, excitement, and results
• 20:35 – Rescue inhaler mindset: change your mental channel

Quotes

“It’s not about doing more—it’s about becoming more of who you were meant to be.”

“Fear is often just false evidence appearing real. When you change the story, you change your outcome.”

“If you’re not excited about where you’re headed, what are the chances you’ll get there?”

Connect with Diana Pagano

Website: dianapagano.com Book: themoremindset.com Instagram: @iamdianapagano

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.304)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Diana Pagano. She is a mindset coach, entrepreneur, international speaker and author of a book we're going to talk about today, The More Mindset, Break Mental Limits and Step Into Extraordinary Results. Drawing on neuroscience and personal experience, helps high achievers break through fear, self doubt and burnout, unlock greater purpose, confidence and fulfillment.

Diana, welcome to the show.

Diana Pagano (00:31.606)

Thank you so much, John. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

John Jantsch (00:34.678)

So a lot of times I like to break down titles because know titles people stress over every word of a title. Publishers certainly do, authors certainly do. And so the word more shows up in this and I want to hear what you have to say about you know is this doing more or being more, thinking more? How does more work in terms of mindset?

Diana Pagano (00:41.452)

Get it perfect.

Diana Pagano (00:58.956)

I love that. Great question, John. I get asked that a lot, So it is not definitely, let me tell you what it's not. It's not about you doing more. It's about becoming more of who you were meant to become, which a lot of times people think that, you know, they don't have it all figured out. They don't. They're not ready to do that thing. And so it's coming really breaking down those mental barriers that we place on ourselves. Hard for people to swallow sometimes because oftentimes this is my reality. But what can you do instead? And so it's more about being more aligned and.

and really going from a limiting belief to an empowering, having a real empowering mindset to be able to do all the things that your heart desires.

John Jantsch (01:35.896)

So you talk about rewiring your mind with terms like neuroscience and neuroplasticity, which are actually even hard to say, let alone to comprehend. So how does that science work into this idea of rewiring?

Diana Pagano (01:52.652)

Absolutely, it's all interrupting the pattern. So in science, the more, if you believe, and it's more than just positive thinking, John, right? People say, oh, is this a positive thinking scenario? No, it's deeper than that. So the way that we think as humans, first of all, it's always based on a fundamental belief. Where did that belief start? It could have been in college, it could have been as a child, a 10-year-old. We cultivate these beliefs along the way in our lives. And so if you believe that you're a person that

can never get to that level of success, for example. If you're a person that says, I've always been a smoker, I can't quit now, right? That's going to determine what comes next. And the only way to change that pattern is for you to interrupt the pattern. And the way you interrupt the pattern from a neuroscience perspective is to tell yourself a new story. It sounds really simple and cliche, like is that it? I just have to tell myself something different? The reason why, because there was a part of our brain, our AES system in the back of our mind, our brain, this is how

We were created by God, whoever your God is, a higher self. We're all governed in the same way. We have the same ingredients as Bill Gates, as Oprah, as the pope, you name it. They're all the same. And here's the thing. Here's the kicker. The language that I say is going to either, A, move me forward in a direction, or keep me the same. Sometimes sabotage and hold you back. the feeling that comes with that,

is attached to either a belief that, it empowers me, I feel confident, or it's self-sabotage, I'm questioning myself, or imposter syndrome, like I'm not a person that can do that thing, even though deep down in your heart, there's that pulling that you want to do that thing, but there's something holding you back. And so the way that we feel based on the thoughts that we have, based on the language, that we keep that narrative, that story alive, is then going to dictate, John, the action or inaction that we take, right? And so that comes with a vibrational energy.

And this is quantum physics. This is not some v-woo woo thing. It's not something that I invented. It's something that I learned and I'm so obsessed with, which is why I wrote the book.

John Jantsch (03:53.902)

Now I agree with you 100%, but when I hear you say, we're made of the same stuff, I mean, I'm a white male who grew up pretty privileged. I actually believed I was gonna get a pony for my birthday every year, right? There are a lot of people that certainly, just telling them to change their mindset when their reality of where they are today is pretty tough. So how do you kind of, how do you work with that?

Diana Pagano (04:18.27)

I love that because, you know, oftentimes I've been told like I'm a realist. This is a reality. I am privileged, for example, right? Like I'm a first generation Mexican-American, grew up in San Diego from immigrant parents and a family of six in a two-bedroom apartment. I'm sure there's worse stories than mine, but I came from nothing. And let me tell you that it doesn't matter if I came from nothing or the next person that

had everything that money was no issue. But yet one person that came from nothing was successful and another person that maybe didn't have such a bad life isn't taking advantage of the tools and all the things, right?

John Jantsch (04:52.696)

probably just as bad or worse maybe.

Diana Pagano (04:56.36)

or worse sometimes. And you know, the biggest obsession, John, that I had in my life as my young adult life as an entrepreneur, really repeating the same cycles as my parents did as they were struggling entrepreneurs, is that one question changed my life. And that was, why are some people so successful and others struggle? It doesn't matter if you're white, if you're Spanish, if you're Mexican, Chinese, black, doesn't discriminate your mind and the way that you were built foundationally.

right, foundationally is the same. So yes, some people have higher education, come from bigger society, the social circles are big, they never had to work hard to be in those rooms, right? And that's great. A lot of times I feel privileged, and even though I didn't come from anything either, right? But the kicker, John, is when you see something as real, and you see that, my gosh, my bank account is in the negative zone, or I'm going to lose my apartment, or I can't pay my mortgage.

And Diana, you're telling me to start thinking differently? Well, this is my reality, right? And I'm like, 100%, 100%, the fire might be in front of you, ready to take your house or take you. And I'm not saying that's not a real thing, especially in California. A lot of people have lost their homes, right? There's real tragedies that happen, right? If you lose something and you feel your life is over and you're doomed, you're vibrating in a different frequency than the other person that lost everything just like you did.

but now they're vibrating at a different frequency of what else is possible. And here's the kicker. Here is the kicker why most people either stay stuck or are too much of a realist and look at their situation and don't do anything about it because they don't have any faith, they don't have a belief that if they do something, if they just ask the right questions, if they just look for more, whether it's more clarity, more energy, more whatever it is that more is for the person, if they need more.

balance in their life, if they need more fulfillment and meaning in their life. It's that, right? It's almost like when you seek, you shall find, not to get biblical or religious, because I don't do that. I definitely have some faith based in different chapters. But when you seek, you're going to find. You're going to find something, right? But when you don't seek and you accept the circumstance as it is and do nothing, then you're going to sink. But if you look at the circumstance, you're like, hey, I don't like it. It sucks. Heck, it burns sometimes.

Diana Pagano (07:21.728)

but I know that there's something else and what else can I do with what I have? know, it's all the perspective in your shifts that happen in your mind.

John Jantsch (07:29.614)

So there's a lot of writing in this category about the idea that fear is there to teach you something and that self-doubt should be seen almost, I think you would call it a signal even rather than a flaw. What are some practical steps to start, if life has always told you to be afraid of this or that you've had instances where you caused you to doubt yourself, how can you start listening to those symbols and kind of almost use them as a compass?

Diana Pagano (07:57.58)

Absolutely, you know one of the things I talk about in my book and the more mindset John is fear is nothing short of F Which is false evidence appearing to be real in fact research shows right? There's been research that shows that most of our negative thoughts that every human has on this planet most of it over 80 to 90 percent of your negative thoughts are actually false assumptions that we

make and convince ourselves that this is what it is. How many times, anyone even listening now, how many times, if you can think of it for a moment, how many times have you worried so much thinking that if you worried hard enough, the problem is going to go away. And it was off for nothing. Now, the other coin, for those of you that those realists, like, wait a second, Diana, there's been real things. Family had cancer, families passed away. These are real tragedies, right?

That's real, right? That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to all of us. We've all had difficult times, but it's who decides to get back up. Who decides to lean in on faith? Who decides to be the person that is going to beat the odds, right? And it's not delusional thinking. People think, that's delusional. That's not the right way to think. But you know why, John? You know why when you think that way, when you say, maybe I can be the one that beats the odds. Maybe I can be the one to get out of my situation.

in a different circumstance than maybe my whole generation family have, right? When you just ask that, what happens is your reticular activating system, as I mentioned, it's like antennas, they go up. And I say this in a way that I want to really break it down. They go up in a way where now you're noticing opportunities, things, people, situations that you otherwise, your brain is all because you have. You're the one telling your brain, I'm a person that can never catch a break. I'm the person that

I can't reach a million dollars of business because I've never been able to exceed whatever amount that you're in, right? I'm just giving you variables. You give your mind constantly stories that then build your identity and you attach it to yourself. So there's no way your mom, your teacher, your mentor can tell you how amazing you are. You got this. Here's an amazing strategy to change your life around. But you have to do the work. You have to show up. And you have to also be the biggest person that is going to impregnate all these

John Jantsch (09:49.87)

Mm-hmm.

Diana Pagano (10:11.788)

beliefs in your own conscious and unconscious mind to then vibrate differently and be able to then, why is one person attracting so much opportunities and another person doesn't? It's because the person that attracts opportunities believes that they're a person, they're a person that attracts opportunities. And you might say, how do you attract opportunities? By telling yourself that you do. And I challenge anyone to try to fight this. I'm telling you, just tell yourself, I attract all the right opportunities and even when things don't go right.

There's always something of value. Even when things don't work out, they're working out. When you believe life like that, I talk about this funny thing on different content that I've done. And it's funny. I don't know if you've used Waze or Google Maps or something. I translate that here. And I'm going to tell you why. When you have whatever journey you're going on and situations that happen as they do to all of us, there's something that happens that you're like, oh my gosh, this isn't working out.

I see it as Google Maps, right? Or Waze, you're going down your journey. Maybe you're going from, for me, I'm in Connecticut to New York. Does Waze tell you that, oh my gosh, there's a snag in five miles and you know, you have to, it reroutes you back to your house. It doesn't do that. It just pivots and takes you a different route. When you walk through life that way, it doesn't make you delusional, but you're just like, hey, there might be some things along the way that aren't going to work out. But when you look at life that way that you're so focused on where you're headed.

That's when you start creating more possibilities for yourself.

John Jantsch (11:42.318)

What role does habits play in change? mean, a lot of times people end up where they end up because they are hanging out with the wrong people or doing the wrong things, you know, habitually. There's a lot of writing on atomic habits is of course one that comes to mind that really focuses on, just change this little thing and this little thing and this little thing. But you really focus on, got to change your mind first.

Diana Pagano (11:56.17)

Amazing.

Diana Pagano (12:05.196)

100 % because you can say, I'm going to do this thing. And here's the kicker. I could say, every day I'm going to spend an hour making calls to customers. There's a habit. Maybe you did two hours last week, but now you're committing to one hour every day times five. That's five hours a week. But your mind's not right. Then you're going to be playing the numbers game, like rolling the dice and hoping it lands on where you want it to land. Could you be successful playing the numbers game in sales? Sure. But why not?

do it on your terms. Why not live more intentional and on purpose and half the time? Life doesn't have to be hard, right? And so habits are great, but if you don't get your mind right, no habit in the world is gonna get you to that next level.

John Jantsch (12:39.181)

Yo!

John Jantsch (12:45.304)

Well, and I'm sure this plays into mindset. think how much does people's maybe flawed notion of success play a role in them setting unrealistic goals or in them just always feeling burned out because they've got to grow or reach a certain status? How much does mindset actually come into maybe reorienting somebody's view of what success actually means for them?

Diana Pagano (13:11.006)

Absolutely, you know, it's a great question because sometimes we become we identify so much in our achievements I was there once upon a time, you know dated back, you know in my late 20s as a single mom Breaking records for real estate agents. I worked for remax and Scott's style Arizona at the time And I just was achieving since I was a little kid, know I was I was I started really young to help you know even my parents with their bills and so all of a sudden it was just like this rat mouse chase of just

success, success. And for me, I was driven based on fear of what I knew, what I went through as a kid growing up and not having much stability. So I translate into what you're saying because oftentimes people don't know. They're like, who am I if I'm not achieving success? If I'm not getting these awards or whatever it is that you're doing, whether you're an actor, right, or you're just a top performer.

And you attach an identity. And that's why getting a million dollars, getting, I've even had the privilege of meeting a billionaire in San Diego who's worth $3.1 billion. And he wasn't fulfilled. Because it's more than just money in your bank account and success. When you're chasing success, is that what is it that you're really attaching to that? What is that going to do for you? There's a meaning. There's a feeling that you're going for. you've never, people, recognition maybe plays a role.

But there is a part where mindset is one thing, but there's also habits, as you mentioned. Habits alone aren't going to get you there. You've got to have the right mindset. But understanding what's important in your life, because we always make time for the things that we prioritize. For women, for example, you're never going to miss doing your nails or your hair. For men, sometimes there are certain things that they do that is absolutely heck or high water. I have to do this thing. So it's ensuring that what

lights your heart on fire personally and professionally that you make time for so that you're not just going big in your business but then your personal life suffers. know, it definitely is both.

John Jantsch (15:05.486)

So you coach people on some of the things that you teach.

Diana Pagano (15:09.6)

I do.

John Jantsch (15:11.054)

mindset shifts that you've seen in other people that really have changed everything for them, where you've really unlocked something and it's like that was the secret.

Diana Pagano (15:19.794)

Absolutely. Honestly, it's such an honor. For me, John, I'm very results driven. So if I coach someone, I won't take on anyone that I feel I won't bring results. It's not even me. It's already in them. But as a coach, most coaches will understand this. It's not about us fixing the problem or whatever is happening. It's for us to allow our clients to see what it is that they're missing. Sometimes people think, I just need clarity. I'm stuck. And it's like, I'm sorry, I'm stuck. And I say, no, you actually don't have much clarity. So the biggest thing.

Most times when I coach clients is the way that they're seeing it, they're so zoomed in on the problem. They're so zoomed in on the lack that they're not having. And so, right, it's almost like take a back seat, take a breath and look back because they already have the answers. We're always so divinely guided. Whether you know it or not, you're always being divinely guided. You know, you know at your core what you need to do.

There's that little voice that nudges us, even when we're not doing the thing of, have gone to the gym, I missed it again. Or I told that customer I was going to call, or I didn't do You know what you're doing and what you're not doing, right? So then you got to dig deeper of saying, what is it that you want? Where is it that you want to be? What is going to this place look like? The end of the target, right? It's never ending, whatever your goal is. I mean, I had to sit someone down at the time. They were actually in real estate at the time. And I said to her,

It's a 90-day program, and 90 days, I need to know that you're going to achieve something greater than you ever thought possible. And that's where my program came in. It was a 90-day program at the time. I said to her, you're not taking this seriously. And she's like, what? And I sat her down after this course, and it was actually live in person. And I said, you're just not excited about it. And if you're not excited about where you're headed with absolute excitement, what's the likelihood you're going to get there?

And so she ended up breaking down, telling me she's a breadwinner in her family, her son's in travel baseball, and that this is how much she needs to cover bills and to cover the expenses of these traveling schedule. And I said, that's it. Is that what life is about, to just barely get by? Right? And so that was there once upon a time. I know exactly what that felt like. And so I broke her down, and she did have some crazy transformation by the questions I asked her to allow her to see. And I said, you need to go bigger. This isn't it.

Diana Pagano (17:37.938)

And who am I to tell you to go bigger in your business? But I knew at her core that she wanted more. But she was not able to see that she could. I said, so you have to do x amount of calls, x amount of appointments, x amount of listings, x amount of this, that, and the other. What's the reason that you couldn't do x, y, z? Or what's the reason that you couldn't get to? So I told her, I said, what's that going to be? She says, well, if I doubled my revenue, that would be a dream.

I said, OK, could that be possible? So by the questions, here's the thing about the brain, and this is what I talk about in the Moore mindset, is what you direct your brain to. It's like a car. You're driving, and you have a right lane, a left lane, and you're like, going turn right, I'm going to turn left. You go right, it's going to lead you somewhere. If you go left, it's going to lead you to a different place. And so the way you view the things and the way that our brains work, everything

Everything even the bad stuff that I've had to happen in my life at some point unconsciously we have to believe That it's possible at some point We had to see it as real and then we experience it and so she ended up true story three months later Not only doubling her revenue, but tripling it right and so these are stories that I love I may have a lot of stories even one coach that I was just talking to last week actually as recent as last week and she said I've never been able to get into these schools from that she's from a different country in Lebanon and she says to you know

talked to these parents about parenting coaching, and no one could ever get in there. So I've never been able to. And I said, how come? And she goes, I said, says who? Well, that's what they said. What did she just do? She accepted a belief from somebody else. But has she ever attempted to do the thing? And then she ended up reporting back to me later, actually, on LinkedIn. She sent me a message, she said, or it was a couple of weeks ago. And she said, I can't believe it. I'm already going into two different schools.

So what it is, it's awakening your mindset of how you view the things. If someone told you, I don't care if everybody told you, I don't care if it's the news, I don't care if it's the highest whatever person, it's what we accept as true because in that part, you're being a realist. But in reality, what's a realist? What you see is never what it is.

John Jantsch (19:48.526)

All right, so if somebody is listening and obviously they need to get.

John Jantsch (19:56.078)

or mindset shifts that if anybody came to you and said, you know, how can I get started? And you didn't know who they were, what their goals were, anything. What's like your go-to? Well, here's a couple of things you need to start thinking about.

Diana Pagano (20:08.14)

Honestly, god, that's a loaded question. I have so many things in the toolkit. But if I had to choose one, I would say, and this is something that, well, you know what's funny? Yes, of course, it depends if we're real. But you know what? It's universal, honestly. The more mindset is catering to entrepreneurs, business leaders, people that reach the plateau, maybe a stay-at-home mom that just feels like she's ready for more. It really doesn't matter. So this is universal, and it's evergreen. And this is what I'm going to tell you. And this is why I

John Jantsch (20:13.678)

You're supposed to say, you're supposed to say it depends. That's the consultant answer, right? Good.

Diana Pagano (20:35.072)

believe and I hope in my heart that it will absolutely resonate with anyone. When you have a bad thought, I don't care what it is, I wonder if my plane's gonna be late, I wonder if the kids are gonna do-do-do-do-do, like all these things that just take on its own thing. It's your job and your responsibility to interrupt the pattern and here's what you do. It's like a rescue inhaler. My son has asthma, right? It's a rescue inhaler for the moment and there's value in the rescue inhaler. Does it go to the root? No, but we can talk about that. The rescue inhaler is gonna allow you to get through.

And so I want you to imagine as if you have a remote control and you're just changing the channel. So when you're having all these what ifs, what ifs, what ifs, and it actually causes sometimes you feel anxious, right? It's like watching a show and it's like a horror movie. You're going to feel like, a little tense. And then you're watching a funny movie and you're laughing, you're more relaxed. And then you're watching something that's suspenseful. There's no different.

What channel are you tuned into is going to dictate how you feel. And guess what? It'll dictate the lack of action that you take or don't take, or that you do take or that you don't take. And that's why just that little thing that you think about, OK, I don't want to go to the gym. Well, don't wait to want to go. This is called discipline. It is a habit that you need. Change the channel. The feeling that you get when you know you did something that you didn't feel like doing. So you're changing the channel, and you're imagining something different.

John Jantsch (21:49.016)

Yeah.

Well, Diana, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you?

Diana Pagano (22:00.63)

Thank you so much. You can go to my website, dianapagano.com, and you can also go find my book. It's probably on my landing page as well, but themormindset.com. And then I'm on social media, at I am Diana Pagano on Instagram and all the other channels that are on my website.

John Jantsch (22:14.966)

Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Diana Pagano (22:18.752)

Thank you so much, John. It's been my pleasure.

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