What Most Businesses Get Wrong About Marketing

What Most Businesses Get Wrong About Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this solo episode, John Jantsch revisits a core principle he has championed for years:
strategy must come before tactics. Despite the explosion of marketing channels, tools,
and now AI, most businesses are not lacking activity. They are lacking clarity.

John breaks down why inconsistent messaging, misaligned teams, and scattered priorities
are symptoms of a missing strategic foundation. He shares insights from working with
hundreds of businesses that achieved significant growth only after narrowing their focus,
defining their ideal customer, and building a systemized marketing approach.

He also introduces a new evolution of his “Strategy First” methodology, a compressed,
high-impact one-day strategic experience designed to align teams, clarify positioning,
and create a practical 90-day roadmap for growth.

Guest Bio

John Jantsch is a marketing strategist, speaker, and bestselling author
of multiple books including Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine,
and Marketing Rebellion. He is the founder of the Duct Tape Marketing system,
which has been licensed by over 400 agencies worldwide. Jantsch is widely recognized for
his practical, systems-based approach to small business marketing and his emphasis on
strategy before tactics.

Key Takeaways

1. Activity Is Not the Problem, Clarity Is

Most businesses are overwhelmed with marketing options but lack a clear strategy.
More effort without direction leads to wasted time and inconsistent results.

2. Strategy Enables You to Do Less, Better

A strong strategic foundation helps eliminate unnecessary tactics and focus only on
what drives meaningful growth.

3. Ideal Customer Definition Is Critical

Growth accelerates when businesses clearly define who they serve and, just as importantly,
who they do not serve.

4. Lack of Strategy Leads to Misalignment

Teams, vendors, and departments often operate in silos, creating inefficiencies and
diluted messaging.

5. Differentiation Comes From Strategic Clarity

Without a clear strategy, businesses struggle to communicate what makes them unique
and why customers should choose them.

6. AI Has Increased Complexity, Not Reduced It

While AI promises efficiency, many businesses are working harder trying to manage
new tools without a guiding strategy.

7. Strategy Creates Internal Alignment and Reduces Stress

Clarity around direction and priorities brings relief to business owners and helps
teams operate more cohesively.

8. A Compressed Strategy Process Can Be More Effective

Condensing strategy into a focused, one-day experience eliminates delays, overthinking,
and miscommunication.

9. Shared Experience Drives Better Execution

Bringing the entire team into the strategy process ensures alignment, shared language,
and stronger buy-in.

10. A 90-Day Roadmap Turns Strategy Into Action

Effective strategy is not theoretical. It results in a clear, actionable plan for the
immediate future.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

• 00:01 – Introduction to a Solo Strategy Discussion
• 01:00 – The Core Problem: Too Much Activity, Not Enough Clarity
• 02:20 – The Hidden Cost of Misalignment
• 03:00 – Real Results From Strategy-First Businesses
• 03:40 – The Myth of “Everyone Is My Customer”
• 04:40 – The Traditional Strategy Process (30-45 Days)
• 06:00 – Introducing Strategy First in One Day
• 07:05 – The Power of Team Alignment in One Room
• 08:00 – What the One-Day Strategy Experience Includes
• 09:00 – Immediate Benefits: Clarity, Alignment, and Focus
• 10:00 – Who This Is For (and Who It’s Not)
• 10:45 – The Real Growth Problem: Lack of Shared Strategy
• 11:00 – Call to Action: Explore Strategy First

Memorable Quotes

“Nobody’s short on marketing activity. The real challenge is they’re short on clarity.”

“If your growth feels messy, the problem usually isn’t effort. It’s the absence of a shared strategy.”

 

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.582)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and another solo show. I'm just going to ramble at you for a bit. Again, I'd love to hear your feedback. I get feedback from lot of folks that they enjoy these shows where I just kind of share some things that I have in mind. I'm just going to start off with no shocker here. I'm going to talk about strategy.

Talk about strategy before tactics. I'm going to talk about marketing as a system. These are things that if you've been listening for, I don't know, even a couple of weeks, but let alone a couple of years, you have heard me say repeatedly something I've written about in pretty much every one of my books. And it's a challenge or a problem that I haven't cracked yet. I haven't gotten the entire world, even the marketing world, to really come fully on board. But I will tell you this.

I've worked with hundreds now of business owners and I have seen the impact when they will step back and look at their business from a strategic point of view and certainly their marketing from a strategic point of view and really proceed to develop the tactics that they are going to develop around that strategy first. Nobody's short on marketing activity. I mean, there's more to do from a marketing standpoint. There seems to be.

more every day, that we can get into more channels, more platforms, more tactics that we can get into every day. So that's not really the challenge. The real challenge is that they're short on the clarity that actually might let them do less. Right. I mean, they're doing a lot of things. Maybe you're doing a lot of things that feel like marketing or under the heading of marketing. but those things don't always connect. so.

My experience is there's a great deal of inconsistent messaging, shifting priorities, right? It's like, well, let's try this this month. Teams, vendors, not allowed, not aligned, I'm sorry. I've come into a lot of organizations. have five, six people, there are five, six companies even doing stuff, but they're not actually even coordinating with each other, which I certainly find rather difficult to imagine. Money gets wasted, time gets wasted. You burn your people out.

John Jantsch (02:20.718)

Let's face it, the promise of AI is it was supposed to automate all this stuff. And I keep talking to people to say they're working harder because they're now trying to figure out all this new stuff. so growth gets really harder to do when we're really just, it's like we're running on the hamster wheel. I've said I've worked with hundreds of businesses over the years and I have many, many examples of case studies where we have doubled, tripled quad.

quadrupled. We'd work with them for years and we've double tripled, quadrupled their business. But it really started with a pretty significant change. We did strategy first. We helped them identify who was an ideal client, who is an ideal client for the business. And maybe more importantly, who's not. Because most businesses are content to say, hey, I do X service, X product, and anybody who has money is my ideal client. And not only is that

inaccurate, it's really costing a lot of growth because we are accepting or chasing the wrong clients. We're not actually being very narrow in our messaging to say, here's who we can help and here's the value we deliver to help those folks. So it really creates a lot of lost opportunity, even if you feel like, well, you we got a client out of it. It wasn't the right client or it was a not a profitable engagement. Certainly that happens all the time.

Probably the biggest thing that I find from no strategy is there's no real point of differentiation. There's no message that clearly communicates to somebody. Here's what we do and we do it better than anyone else. In fact, we've got proof that we do that thing better than anyone else that ever thought about. And when you get that, when you clarify that message, says, here's who we're for. And your ideal client reads that message and says,

Finally, you're talking about me, aren't you? As I said, this is something that we have done for many, many years. It's not new. I mean, it's continued to evolve, but it's continued to be something that we've licensed now to well over 400 agencies and consultancies who also get the power of this systemized approach that we've been able to create to develop strategy. But today I want to tell you about a new way that we are going to deliver it. And this may have some

John Jantsch (04:40.174)

some appeal. the past, ideally it took 30 to 45 days, quite frankly, to do this because we do a lot of in-depth research. We actually interview your clients as part of it and really then develop the messaging, develop the ICP, develop the customer journey, develop the priorities that are going to be really the next 90 days worth of work to kind of restructure the foundation and really get the business

pointed in the right direction. while businesses that understand the idea of investing in strategy sometimes would grumble about 30 to 45 days, it's like, why can't we do it now? But once they were through the process, there's no question the value that they received and they gush about the value they received. They gush about, it's not just, I mean, in 30 to 45 days of doing strategy first, all of sudden the phone's not ringing.

off the hook now with new business, but all of a the team has some clarity. Certainly the founder and the owner has some clarity about, here's why things haven't been working. Here's why we're spinning our wheels. Here's how we have to actually get very clear about who we serve and who we don't serve. that frankly, just having that has a tremendous amount of value.

frankly relieves a ton of stress for the business owner. But what we decided is, or asked ourself or challenged ourselves is, how can we do that faster? How could we actually deliver strategy first in a day? That is something that I'm introducing today. That is something we're going to lean in very heavily because I believe there are some distinct advantages to actually compressing

that time. have the ability, let's face it, we have the ability with a lot of the AI tools that we've mastered to actually do the research, to actually do the analysis in a way that allows us to do this in a much faster timeframe. But here's probably the biggest, I think, advantage to doing this. Quite often we would do this over a series of meetings that were required. Two weeks maybe would go between those meetings and quite often

John Jantsch (07:05.646)

It would really just be the founder. But imagine if we could come into your business, especially if you have a team, and we could bring everybody that you thought needed to be in that room, in that room for an entire focused day. Now we will certainly do a lot of work on the front end. We're not just going to show up and say, tell me about your business. We are going to do a lot of

work on the front end, the research that we can do on your industry and on your specific business and what we see out there that you've been doing in marketing already. But then we are going to spend a very focused day with you and your team creating what I would say is as much an experience as it is a strategic.

exercise or strategic engagement. This is not a workshop, this is not consulting. This is actually with your team building the components that we know will really kind of launch your business or launch your marketing in a much more effective way. So as I said, we do tons of prep ahead of time to get the context. And then we need all of your key decision makers or frankly, people that are doing stuff on behalf of your business in the name of marketing.

to be in the room, people that you wanna level up, people that you wanna actually experience as a group, what it's like or what it means to develop marketing strategy and to have the discussion around that. frankly, it's going to be as much a learning experience for them as it will be a deliverable for the business itself. So we're gonna identify where there's friction, we're gonna identify

the business objectives that you need to go, we're going to define that ideal customer and customer journey. We're going to tighten your positioning. We're going to actually create and sharpen messaging and really set the priorities for the next quarter or next two quarters as a big part of this. thing, some of the other advantages of have the output in this fashion in one focused day is that yes, you're going to get a clear strategic foundation. You're going to actually understand your business

John Jantsch (09:19.384)

probably better than you ever have. You're going to have a shared language. Some of the tools that we're going to give you and in part during this are going to be tools that you'll now be able to continue to work with with your team. And it won't just be, you went off to another thing and read a book and brought it back to the business. Everybody's going to be on the same page. And you're going to have a roadmap, a very practical roadmap in the short term for the next 90 days. And I think that this focus

The lack of delay, the lack of overthinking, mean, getting people aligned, I think it's going to have tremendous value. Now, this won't be for everybody. Ideally, is strategy in this fashion actually works better for a business in a one to $25 million range, for example. I mean, you've got traction, but you've also got growing complexity. And so it's time to professionalize your marketing in a way.

You know, the ad hoc marketing is just not going to really cut it anymore. Maybe you've already started to feel that. And you've got teams or people or even outside vendors that really need more alignment instead of more activity necessarily.

If your growth feels messy, the problem may not be effort. Usually isn't actually effort. In fact, you're probably working harder than ever. It's the absence of a shared strategy inside the business. And that's really what Strategy First was completely designed to solve. And Strategy First today, I believe solves that in a very unique kind of shared experience way. So.

If you want to learn more about this, if this kind of lights you up a little bit, we have a page. You can go read all about the very specifics. It's just dtm.world slash one day, all one word, one day. DTM is like duct tape marketing. So it's dtm.world slash one day. Love to come to your business, learn about how we can build this for you and really kind of have your marketing take off, not.

John Jantsch (11:29.986)

just this quarter, but really in a one day experience. So take care. Thanks for tuning in and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

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Why Growth Stalls After Early Success

Why Growth Stalls After Early Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

In this solo episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch explores why capable, experienced founders repeatedly hit the same growth ceiling. He unpacks the hidden leadership patterns, behaviors, and internal bottlenecks that stall progress even when strong strategies are in place.

Episode Overview

John Jantsch takes a deeper look at one of the biggest reasons businesses stop growing: the founder becomes the bottleneck. While many organizations invest in strategy, tactics, and better marketing systems, real transformation often fails to stick because the founder’s mindset and leadership habits have not evolved.

In response, John introduces a new facilitated experience called Founder’s Day, designed to help business owners identify the assumptions, fears, and recurring behaviors that are limiting growth. This episode is a call for honest reflection and leadership change as the true starting point for organizational transformation.

About John Jantsch

John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker, and bestselling author of Duct Tape Marketing, The Referral Engine, Duct Tape Selling, and Marketing Rebellion. He is the founder of Duct Tape Marketing and creator of the Marketing Operating System, helping small businesses and agencies build practical, effective strategies for long-term growth.

Key Takeaways

1. Strategy alone is not enough.Even the best marketing strategy can stall if the founder’s leadership style and decision-making patterns remain unchanged.
2. Founders are often the bottleneck.Overinvolvement, inconsistent delegation, and unclear accountability can keep teams from taking ownership.
3. Growth ceilings are often self-created.Businesses frequently plateau because founders repeat the same patterns that helped them succeed early on.
4. What got you here will not get you there.Reaching the next level of growth requires a different mindset, different leadership behaviors, and new systems.
5. Founder’s Day is built for transformation.This new facilitated workshop helps founders surface the internal constraints holding back the business.
6. Business goals must come first.Before building a strategy, companies need clarity on what the organization actually wants to achieve.
7. The future of agencies is transformation.Agencies and consultants that move beyond selling tactics and start delivering transformation will stay more relevant.
8. AI cannot replace a real system.AI can support execution, but it cannot replace a strategic framework like a marketing operating system.

Great Moments

• 00:01 – John introduces the episode and asks why smart businesses keep hitting the same ceiling
• 01:00 – Why better strategy alone does not always create better results
• 02:11 – The signs that a founder may be the bottleneck
• 03:00 – The cost of poor alignment and stalled execution
• 04:00 – Introduction to Founder’s Day
• 05:00 – Why business goals must guide marketing strategy
• 06:00 – The role of self-awareness, reflection, and vulnerability
• 07:00 – Why what got you here will not get you there
• 08:10 – Building a personal change plan for leadership growth
• 09:00 – Announcement of the Future Proofing Your Marketing Agency event
• 10:00 – Selling transformation instead of tactics
• 10:30 – Why AI will not replace strategic systems
• 11:00 – How to register for the free event

 Quotes

The strategy, no matter how good it is, gets undermined if the founder doesn’t change.

In many cases, we have to move the founder out of the way of growth.

What got you here won’t get you there.

If all you’re doing is delivering value using AI tools, you’re going to be replaced by that very tool.

Real transformation starts with the founder, not the tactics.

Save your Free Seat

Register for the free three-day experience, Future Proofing Your Marketing Agency, running from March 31 through April 2.

Visit: dtm.world/future

• Day 1: Founder’s Day experience
• Day 2: Selling transformation
• Day 3: Marketing Operating System introduction

 

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.058)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and I'm going to do a solo show today. That's right, just me, no guess. I want to talk about some things that...

You know, I can say that it's been brewing recently, but you know, in hindsight, when I look back, it's probably something that I've recognized over 20 years or so. And here's the question I'm going to start with. Why do smart businesses, smart business owners keep hitting the same ceiling? That's what I want to talk about today. I feel very qualified to talk about this because I'm a founder. I've experienced some of the same things I'm going to talk about today. And I think that that

Quite frankly, it's helped me recognize why this is happening. So we work with a lot of founder led businesses and what we've typically found is they don't have a very well developed strategy. I mean, we've built almost our entire practice on the idea of strategy before tactics and many of the clients come to us for a strategy first type of engagement. And while in every case,

They are helped. have better thoughts. They have better priorities. They have better tactics. One of the things that I've found is that even as the business grows, many times they come up against the same hurdle time and time again. A lot of it's because the founders patterns have stayed the same. How they view the business, how they view delegating, how they view growth.

their fears. These are some of the things that I think really end up holding a business back so that it ultimately can't necessarily change, even though we've installed a better marketing approach in many cases. what I've seen, here's some of the things I've seen. Tell me if any of these apply to you. The founder is still very involved in every, or at least many decisions. The team,

John Jantsch (02:11.946)

if they've assembled one, kind of waits around for like, what do we do next rather than owning things? Delegation, while it's a good idea, every quarter I'm going to really commit to it, never really sticks. There's not a lot of accountability or it's fuzzy as far as who's going to do what. And so it's like the business keeps circling around the same issues time and time again. So

I'm wondering, are you feeling that bottleneck? Do any of these symptoms or ideas sound familiar to you? And what's it costing? I guess that's the next question too. I know that when we have worked with a client, in some cases, when we can't get past this issue, the strategy, no matter how good it is, it really stalls or gets undermined at least. Alignment that.

that hopefully sometimes comes out of this strategy engagement falls. People get hesitant. Growth certainly slows as well. what's the solution? Well, one of the things that we have added, and we're going to do it as a standalone, frankly, but certainly as part of or the front end of any strategy engagement that we do, is to add an element that we're calling the Founder's Day.

The idea behind this is to have a very intense guided, facilitated workshop, if you will, with the founder of the business before we ever start talking about their ideal client and their core message. Because I think real change, of course, has to start with that founder. And really before the business can transform, mean, a lot of times we have to teach them what it is that we're going to install, but then also how we're going to reinforce it.

Here's what it is. It's a structured, facilitated experience focused on the founder's change. It's not therapy, although maybe sometimes. It's not really coaching or certainly not coaching theater that you sometimes see out there. It's not a strategy session. It's a process designed to really surface the patterns, the assumptions, the behaviors really that are actually limiting and holding back growth. the goal

John Jantsch (04:39.15)

to that day or to that session or that element, it's not really just insight. mean, it's to create a shift that can support the real organizational change that is going to come from us installing strategy first, installing a marketing operating system. So.

It's going to begin with business goals. Again, that's another thing I think is I've learned the hard way, but I think it's sort of odd that a lot of marketing folks get hired to do marketing plans, to do marketing strategy, to do marketing tactics. And there really hasn't been much discussion, if at all, about what the goals of the organization are, what the goals of the business are. And we really need to tie those two things together. So we're going to start there, really get very clear on what the company wants.

before we start talking about how the founder is going to change in order to get there. And then of course how marketing is going to eventually support that. So.

John Jantsch (05:45.516)

we're going to move, I think we're going to ask you to make some honest reflection to help move you out of the way of growth. I know that sounds really harsh and I can say it again. I think I could say it because frankly, I've lived it myself. In many cases, we have to really change the behaviors that have been in the way and have been quite frankly become part of the culture. And the only way you can change them is to recognize that they exist. So we're gonna walk you through

facilitate a day, frankly, of helping you understand what those, not only what the goals for the business are, we're going to start there, but then we're going to actually talk about what are the constraints, what's holding you back, what has held you back. And it's going to, in many cases, going to take some vulnerabilities, some brutal honesty. I know that, you know, when I'm sort of challenged on being the issue, being the problem, you know, it's really

human nature to actually respond in a way that is defensive. And I think that we all know if you've been doing this at any time at all, I mean, that obviously is not helpful for the business itself. So, and what's so amazing is what got you here is that you have the desire, you have the smarts, you have the really the drive to build that business.

But what we've discovered, especially when a business has grown to a certain level, one to $20 million, I mean, clearly something is going right. But what we have found is that that's where they kind of bump up against the ceiling of sorts. And it's that kind of old cliche of what got you here won't get you there, won't get you to the next level. So understanding what the next level is, and then also understanding, or at least having a guided

facilitation around, you know, why some of these patterns keep happening, what's going to change, how are going to commit to change too? It's not really supposed to be just a nice day, you know, where everybody sits around and talks about their feelings. It is going to be a day where you tie what you want to do to how you're going to lead and to really come up with a personal change plan for how you're going to lead.

John Jantsch (08:10.988)

that we believe is the thing that's going to kind of unleash you going to the next level. Now there are many elements, obviously, in the execution, in strategy first, in installing the marketing operating system. But what we've discovered is this is the key to really unlocking a true transformation in the business and making it stick. Many of us have experienced temporary experiences, temporary transformations.

The key to this is really, this is what's going to make it stick. So this is something that we have just introduced and we're gonna start offering as a standalone product, if you will, or experience. However, I've got an opportunity for you to experience it free of charge. March 31st through April 2nd, we are going to hold an event that we are calling Future Proofing, your how to future proof your marketing agency. It is targeting.

agencies and consultants in this particular case, because that's a market that we serve. And so we are going to offer three days. The first day is going to be this founder day. I'm going to walk people through it. You're going to go away with a workbook. You're going to go away with lots of questions. It's going to be a group setting. So it's certainly not going to be the intimate one-on-one session that that might and probably needs to happen. But we want people to experience this is part of duct tape marketing.

This is part of our marketing system now. The second day, and what we're going to do is one hour a day. We're going to give you homework. We're going to give you workbooks. You're going to really, we're calling it a working experience. It's not a workshop. It's not a webinar. So day two is going to be thinking in terms of how do we move from selling tactics to selling transformation, to delivering transformation for our clients? Because I think that is

the future. That is how we're going to future proof our business. And then day three, we are actually going to introduce attendees to something we call the marketing operating system. It is in my estimation, it is the way that you can make yourself really impervious to what's going on with AI. It is something that AI can't replicate and you are going to be in the driver's seat with it. I'm not suggesting we're not going to use AI.

John Jantsch (10:32.878)

going to use AI in all the ways that it is meant to be used and all the ways that are practical and all the ways that deliver value. But if all you're doing is delivering value using AI tools, well, you're going to be replaced by that very tool. But if you actually have a framework and a system that we call the marketing operating system, AI can't produce that. Now it can help you deliver it, but you are going to make future proof your practice. So three days.

I will, we will certainly be promoting this in other ways. But if you're interested, want to go sign up for free? It is dtm.world slash future. That's dtm like duct tape marketing dot world slash future. And I believe it could be one of the most eyeopening experiences that you can have, particularly if you're one of those people out there thinking, am I going to get replaced by AI?

Is the agency world changing? Do I need a new model? I think we're going to introduce you to some ideas that might answer some of those questions for you. So last time, March 31st through April 2nd, three days in a row, hour a day, plus you're going to get homework and workbooks, dtm.world slash future. And if nothing else, I think the experience of going through the founder day of asking some deeper questions than maybe what do need to do today?

might be well worth the time invested. So that's it for today. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days soon out there on the road.

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The Hidden Tax Savings in Your Business

The Hidden Tax Savings in Your Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews
Peter Holtz, founder of Peter Holtz CPA and a former Big Four accountant and
multi-company CFO. Peter explains why most business owners are unknowingly overpaying taxes
and how proactive tax planning can legally reduce tax liability—sometimes by tens or even
hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Peter breaks down the difference between traditional tax compliance and strategic tax
planning, sharing why the majority of tax preparers simply fill out forms rather than
actively looking for opportunities to save their clients money. He discusses common tax
strategies that many businesses miss, including the Augusta Rule, employing children in the
business, maximizing depreciation, and properly structuring entities.

The conversation also explores the mindset many entrepreneurs have around profit, the
importance of building tax strategy into business planning, and how a CFO-level financial
perspective can help business owners make smarter long-term decisions.

If you’re a business owner who only talks to your CPA at tax time, this episode reveals why
that approach could be costing you significantly—and how to fix it.

Guest Bio

Peter Holtz is a CPA and former CFO who helps business owners keep more of
what they earn through proactive tax strategy. He has built and advised multi-8-figure
companies, leads an Inc. 5000 and IPA Top 500 accounting
firm, and is known for reframing taxes as a long-term wealth decision rather than a
once-a-year task.

With decades of experience in tax accounting and CFO advisory, Peter specializes in helping
entrepreneurs legally reduce their tax burden through year-round tax planning and strategic
financial guidance.

Key Takeaways

1. Most CPAs Focus Only on Compliance

While over 1.2 million professionals are licensed to prepare taxes in the U.S.,
only about 1,100 are certified tax planners. Most accountants simply enter
numbers into forms rather than actively looking for tax-saving opportunities.

2. Waiting Until Tax Season Costs Businesses Money

Tax strategy should happen throughout the year. Many tax-saving moves—such as purchases,
depreciation strategies, or entity structuring—must be implemented before December 31
to affect that year’s taxes.

3. Business Owners Miss Common Tax Strategies

Peter frequently sees entrepreneurs miss legal deductions and strategies like:

• Home office reimbursements
• The Augusta Rule (renting your home to your business)
• Employing children in the business
• Proper asset depreciation
• Correct entity structuring

These missed opportunities can add up to significant tax overpayments.

4. Shifting Expenses from After-Tax to Pre-Tax Is Powerful

One of the most effective strategies is converting personal expenses into legitimate business
expenses when appropriate. The more expenses you can move from after-tax dollars to
pre-tax dollars, the more you reduce taxable income.

5. Profit Must Be Treated as a Priority

Many entrepreneurs only aim to “pay the bills,” rather than intentionally building profit
into their business model. Peter emphasizes the importance of planning for profit, retirement,
healthcare, and future financial goals as part of the business structure.

6. Financial Strategy Requires Asking Better Questions

A great tax advisor doesn’t just prepare returns—they ask deeper questions about your
business, goals, assets, and family situation to uncover opportunities most accountants miss.

Great Moments From the Episode

• 00:02 — Introduction to Peter Holtz
  John introduces Peter Holtz and his background as a Big Four accountant and founder of a rapidly growing CPA firm.
• 01:05 — The Cost of Waiting Until Tax Season
  Peter explains how delaying tax planning until March can cost businesses tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 02:05 — Why Most CPAs Don’t Do Tax Strategy
  Peter breaks down the difference between compliance accountants and certified tax planners.
• 03:26 — How the Tax Code Incentivizes Economic Activity
  Discussion on how government tax policies encourage investments like real estate and infrastructure.
• 06:51 — The Most Common Tax Savings Business Owners Miss
  Peter highlights overlooked strategies including the Augusta Rule, home office reimbursements, and paying children through the business.
• 11:09 — Diagnosing Tax Problems vs Cash Flow Problems
  Peter explains how reviewing tax returns and balance sheets quickly reveals missed opportunities.
• 12:27 — When Businesses Need CFO-Level Thinking
  The conversation shifts to financial strategy and how CFO insights help business owners make smarter growth decisions.
• 14:55 — The Misunderstood Relationship With Profit
  John and Peter discuss why many entrepreneurs treat profit incorrectly and how that mindset hurts long-term success.
• 20:12 — How Far Should Businesses Push Tax Strategy?
  Peter shares a real example of pushing tax law boundaries legally and successfully defending it with documentation.
• 24:14 — Where to Learn More
  Peter shares resources and a free tax strategy session available for business owners.

Memorable Quotes

“If you’re not planning your taxes year-round, you’re almost certainly paying more than you need to.”

“The more you can shift expenses from after-tax dollars to pre-tax dollars, the more money you keep.”

“Most accountants focus on putting numbers into boxes. Strategic tax planning starts with asking the right questions.”

Resources & Links

Website:
peterholtzcpa.com

Exclusive Resource for Duct Tape Marketing Listeners:
Tax Strategy Playbook & Tax Audit – A self-assessment and strategy review designed to help business owners identify gaps in their current tax approach and determine whether their structure is aligned with how their business is growing.

Get the exclusive resource here

Connect with Peter Holtz

• Instagram: @peterholtzcpa
• Facebook: Peter Holtz CPA
• X (Twitter): @peterholtzcpa
• LinkedIn: Peter Holtz CPA

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:02.075)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Peter Holtz. He's a former Big Four accountant and multi-company CFO turned founder of Peter Holtz CPA, a fast growing firm recognized on the 2025 Inc and 5,000 at number 3075 and named to...

The top 25 IPA, top 500 with decades of experience in tax accounting and CFO advisory. He helps business owners legally reduce their tax burden through proactive year round planning. So Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Holtz (00:38.318)

Thank you very much. You got it exactly right.

John Jantsch (00:40.635)

Yeah. So we are recording this. People may be listening to this at other times of the year, but we're recording this right around the March 15th deadline for a lot of businesses to file taxes. So it kind of leads me to teeing up this question is, what's the real cost in waiting till now to think about or have this tax conversation?

Peter Holtz (01:05.29)

It could be like tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. if you, you know, the problem is you got to structure yourself and make sure you take, all your write-offs in place before year end, most of the time, right? So that December 31st timeframe is very, very important. And what's critical about what we do and what business owners should be doing is they should be like planning their taxes year round. They should be having quarterly meetings with their tax preparers, tax advisors, whatever.

and really tax strategists. we recommend is a solid tax strategy to make sure that of where they are, where they're going, how much money they're going to make, what they need to set aside, and everything else that they need to.

John Jantsch (01:46.747)

So, particularly folks that they have an accountant or a CPA that really kind of just does their compliance with tax reporting, where do you see companies like that leaking the most money? And I guess the follow-up question is, why isn't there a CPA telling them?

Peter Holtz (02:05.294)

Well, that's one of the biggest problems in the industry, right? And there are 1.2 million people in the United States license, prepare taxes with the IRS. And only about 1100 of us are certified tax planners. it's an additional education you can get if you're really interested in helping your business clients. It's not that difficult to do, but it teaches you some of the more...

basic and more advanced tax planning techniques to really reduce taxes. And when you think about it, it's basically 99.993 % of that 1.2 million are basically compliance guys. They put the numbers in boxes. Sometimes they don't even think about the numbers they put in the boxes. Like I've seen businesses with no assets. Like I've seen a gas station tax return filed with no assets. And I'm like, how do you not have any assets?

John Jantsch (03:01.115)

You

Peter Holtz (03:01.58)

Like you take everything out with your hands and pour the gas and the, mean, it's just impossible. So, and that's really a shame. think it, I think the industry to a certain extent has been more compliance oriented in terms of putting the numbers in the boxes and do it. That's it. And they've not thought about really what can I do to save the client's money? And there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff that the tax code lets them do in terms of depreciation, bonus depreciation.

John Jantsch (03:03.919)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (03:26.53)

You know, the Augusta rule, paying your kids, how to structure things, should you be a C-Corp, S-Corp, LLC, those are all really important questions.

John Jantsch (03:34.223)

Well, and I want to come back to the, I do want you to address where you commonly see companies leaking, you know, places, but I want to follow up on what you said about the CPAs. Is there also an element of the industry that is sort of risk averse? And even if something's in the tax code, it might get looked at harder than that. I mean, I've heard that from accountants. It's like, we probably don't want to do this, even though it's in the tax code and it's legal.

It's going to get your return looked at. mean, is there, is there sort of an overarching attitude that leans towards that?

Peter Holtz (04:09.134)

There is, there's a lot of real conservatism when it comes to that. you know, I don't know what to say about it, but it's wrong. mean, it really, if it's in, you know, Congress writes the tax code. And last year we had the big, beautiful bill, for example, that allows you, they do it so that people will do certain things so that the economy gets better. You know.

John Jantsch (04:19.375)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (04:36.398)

You know, you think about just think about depreciating, depreciating real estate, the long term real estate appreciates every year at 4%. Right over the long term 4%. But yet we can write it off. We can depreciate it. Right. It is the only appreciating asset we can depreciate. And the reason the government does that is because they want places for people to live because a civilian population that's living inside is much happier than when it's living outside and they want people to work.

They grow the economy by offering these tax rules to incentivize investment, and incentivize certain things. Low income housing credits, solar tax credits that we had and a lot of were eliminated. The electric vehicle tax credit that we put in place. All of these things were so important to the changes that the government wants to make in economy in leveraging really the entire economy.

to try to move in the direction that they wanna move. And a lot of it's built into the tax cut.

John Jantsch (05:37.527)

So the tax code is what? Upward 700, 800 pages? Nine to 10,000. Okay. So how does somebody like you keep up on the fact that it may change, I mean, change dramatically this year?

Peter Holtz (05:41.998)

No, like minor 10,000 pages. Minor 10,000 pages.

Peter Holtz (05:51.221)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we do is we it's continuing professional education. We make sure we understand and focus on on on the things we need to focus on for our business owners. We just continue to study, study, study. Right. And I think what's interesting is I think now we know with AI and so forth, it's going to allow us to leverage to study even more. Right. And to get into the nitty gritty and really expand our range of services and help people save even more money.

things like, you know, more exotic things like certain types of trust, property trust, revocable trust, irrevocable trust, all those other things, I think are gonna become more and more important as we continue to grow and increase complexity.

John Jantsch (06:35.557)

So, let me loop back to what are maybe less three or four of the most common things that you see all the time. You've mentioned assets a couple of times, so depreciation is probably one of them. But what are some of the things that you just see time and time again?

Peter Holtz (06:45.826)

Right. Yeah.

Peter Holtz (06:51.852)

I see people that don't reimburse themselves for home office. I see people that don't take the Augusta rule, which is ability to rent out your personal residence 14 days a year to your business and create tax-free income. I see people not paying their kids. I've heard other CPAs saying, that's a red flag. Well, nonsense, OK? The tax law was established that any child above age seven can work in your business. You can pay them a fair amount.

for the work that you're doing and you're gonna have to do payroll or create the time records and give them a job to actually do it. But to them, to a child, if you pay them $15,000 a year and they're monitoring your social media, maybe they're helping you with whatever, to them it's at their standard deduction. So it's essentially tax-free income. yeah, exactly. I see people. Yeah, I see people.

John Jantsch (07:43.919)

Yeah, and you were going to give it to them anyway. Because they needed the money, so they were going to get it one way or another,

Peter Holtz (07:51.694)

I see people spending money on their kids, sports, their music lessons, their schooling, whatever it is. And these people are using after-tax money instead of pre-tax money. The more you can shift from after-tax to pre-tax, the more money you save. And if you use all the rules properly, if you're a business owner, let's say you're making $150,000 a year in a business, which is okay, right? But you've worked your business, you've made yourself a decent profit.

John Jantsch (07:57.221)

Right.

Peter Holtz (08:20.633)

probably you can turn close to $100,000 of that $150,000 into tax-free money. If you use every, and you properly manage and control your business, you're gonna have your home office be, I mean, I see, every time I see a contractor, right? You know their primary storage facility for a contractor is a garage.

John Jantsch (08:42.299)

The garage.

Peter Holtz (08:43.183)

Right? Every single contractors garage is full of stuff. And it's funny when I talk to clients who are contractors and the husband and wife is there, it's like I always mention that. Oh, was like, oh yeah, for sure. Or I'll have guys that deliberately, maybe they have a bigger piece of property and build a barn on their backyard in the backyard to store their equipment, their trucks, their extra materials, whatever. And they never write it off because nobody asked. This is really where it gets in my profession. Really, really is a problem.

John Jantsch (08:47.227)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (09:12.705)

is people don't ask questions. Like every time I start talking to somebody I'm asking, know, what's your business like? What are you actually doing? How do you do it? Where do you work? Are you working out of your home? You know, are you paying your kids or whatever? How many of this? How many? And it's like you would be, I literally have people who are still, they have their parents living with them, supporting them, and the parents are helping in the business and they're giving their parents money and supporting them.

they're not taking it out, but even though the parents are doing stuff to help them. it is, know, trying to think of everything is about asking. It's not about the answers, it's about asking the right question.

John Jantsch (09:53.603)

Right, right, right. So I should hold, I actually have my office in my home. So you just gave me a hint. should hold a retreat once a year for 15 days and lease or rent the home to my business.

Peter Holtz (10:04.099)

Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Holtz (10:12.119)

Absolutely. Well, you know what? Quite honestly, I have I have an attorney in the Northeast that's a client of mine that does major events and the and like he's got a very large place, a very large house, and he does major catering events out of his house for clients that are business building. And if he would go to a Hilton or Four Seasons or a large hotel, you know, the Augusta rule still applies. It's what you

what you would pay for an equivalent space outside. sometimes we're taking very large, you know, imagine 12 events at $20,000 an event, a tax free income, because it's like, and a lot of, man, you know, there's a lot of people that can benefit by that.

John Jantsch (10:52.379)

Sure, Yeah. Yeah.

You

John Jantsch (11:01.563)

So when you first sit down with a business owner, are there some pretty telltale signs that they've probably got a tax problem versus a cashflow problem?

Peter Holtz (11:09.805)

Yes, absolutely. Well, what we do is we, when we sit down with the business owner, get your last two years tax returns, business and personal, we study them. We understand exactly what we see on the tax returns. Then we kind of go back and we ask them questions about what we see for the business and everything else like that. And there are some telltale signs. I made that point about the gas station with no assets, right? Or it's like, hey, you know, you're, and it's always the balance sheet that you can really find a lot of mistakes. Like they may, you know,

John Jantsch (11:31.055)

Yeah.

Peter Holtz (11:39.182)

We know they may use this type of business where they may use credit cards, but yet there's no credit card liability for what they've already spent money on. Lots and lots of stuff that we can see in the numbers that just look weird compared to other businesses, other people in the same industry. So those telltale signs are really, all in the numbers. And I'll have people come to me and start talking to me and say, and I'm like, I got to look at your numbers. And once you start,

John Jantsch (11:56.303)

Mmm.

Peter Holtz (12:08.655)

I mean, I've been doing this for near 40 years, right? So once you start looking at a business and you kind of know what to expect in terms of margins and everything else like that, and in terms of bottom line, and when it's not there, you're going to figure out why.

John Jantsch (12:23.867)

So you also offer CFO services on a virtual base. Is there a point at which a small business needs that level of thinking, or is it like day one?

Peter Holtz (12:27.011)

Okay.

Peter Holtz (12:38.093)

I mean, to a certain extent, you need some financial acumen, certainly from day one. Certain elements of the tax code from a business owner are really, really tricky. Probably the trickiest one is sales tax, right? And every state has auditors that go out there that try to find additional money. Everybody tries to find additional money for their people. And the sales tax can be really, really tough.

John Jantsch (12:59.547)

shoot every city.

Peter Holtz (13:08.119)

that's a regular tax start hard enough, but, you know, Yeah, but really as a business gets bigger and really they're thinking about growing really they're thinking about, you know, what they're going to do next. Should I buy this next vehicle? Should I buy my competitor? Should I get a building? Should I do, you know, what's going to be the long-term impact to me, not only from a tax receptor, but also financial perspective is really, really important.

Can I afford to do this? What does my business look like? How is my marketing paying off for me? You know what I mean? And just all the different questions that you want to ask as a business owner, having another person who knows numbers, right? Because here's the thing, most business owners understand what they do, right? They know how to fix a car. They know how to pump gas. They know how to do a restaurant. They know how to do catering. They know how to do construction, whatever it is that they know how to do it,

John Jantsch (13:55.407)

Yeah, right.

Peter Holtz (14:05.486)

But when it comes to the numbers and the compliance and the, you know, how are my numbers going to fall in the next couple of years? Studying that is really, really important. Having just another set of eyes to say, hey man, you know what? I think I want to buy my building. And I'm like, okay, well, what's the, what's the, what's, what's your current rent for your building? Right? Okay. Whatever. was 10, $4,000 a month. If you buy the building, how much is your loan payment going to be?

$3,000. Well, that's an easy one, right? Because you're buying a building, you're getting depreciation, you get the write-offs or whatever. Looking at those breakeven, even understanding breakeven and what you have to do and what your margins are can really, really, I mean, can be night and day for a business owner.

John Jantsch (14:36.392)

Right.

John Jantsch (14:45.189)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:55.973)

Talk to me a little bit about the mindset that you see. know I've worked with thousands. I've done this 30 years too. I've worked with thousands of businesses and profit seems to be a really misunderstood and often maligned word. The relationship that businesses have with profit really seems screwed up. How do you help fix that?

Peter Holtz (15:15.68)

I think you have a very, very good point. And I think it relates to, I think that mindset relates to the fact that when most people get, if they start their own business, most people get started in business and they come with the attitude of, know, I just need to make, I just need to pay my bills. I just need to pay my bills. So they're kind of going along, working their butts off, trying to get to this level. Then they start paying their bills and they level off, right? Then they don't say, wait a minute, I should make this building pay for my retirement.

John Jantsch (15:18.491)

Thank you.

Peter Holtz (15:45.585)

I should make this business pay for my retirement, make this business put money away for my healthcare, put money away from the college education. And what I'll see is that people go along and suddenly they got a kid that's got to go to college and they need find another 30 grand a year. They step it up. So why not step it up and push it all along the way and factor in your retirement, factor in your medical, factor in your kids' care.

factor in everything as part of your utilities for your business. And you rarely see people factoring in a savings plan into their business operations. And that is really the-

John Jantsch (16:18.607)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:27.387)

Sure. Well, we talked about it before we jumped on recorded here. You know, we're both fans of Mike McCallowitz's work, Profit First. And I think as simple as that idea was, it really did, you know, the idea of actually instead of paying all the bills and going, I hope there's some leftover, it was really more of just what you said. It's like, no, this is a bill, profit's a bill. You pay it first.

Peter Holtz (16:34.542)

Yep.

Peter Holtz (16:55.563)

Exactly.

John Jantsch (16:57.392)

There does tend to be a real kind of, we'll work to the level of what's left, right?

Peter Holtz (17:04.172)

Exactly. it's not, there's nothing bad about that. It's just people's understand, you know, they know what they know. You know what I mean? And that's one of the things I like about Profit First and what Mike has done is that he's educated people on, got to pay yourself first, man. That's what you're in business to do. Right? A lot of people love the freedom and being in their own business. They love not being their own boss. But it can, if they don't take care of themselves, it can be...

You know, a heavy, heavy load. remember once I met a pool contractor that was in his sixties and he spent his life, good 20, 30 years building pools for rich people in one of the wealthiest communities in the United States. And he ended up broke because he never watched his numbers and he never took care of it. And it was like, it was sad. You know what I mean? I would see pictures of the works of art that he built and, you know, it, I never want to see in my clients go down that

John Jantsch (17:44.539)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:04.709)

So if you were advising people, whether they call you or anybody they're working with currently, what are a handful of questions that they, regardless of the relationship they have with their tax advisor, they should be saying, hey, wait a minute, ask me about these four things to get better sort of strategic picture rather than just like add up the numbers and fill out the forms.

Peter Holtz (18:29.487)

Yeah, I think you want your tax person or your business advisor or accountant basically to ask you questions like, tell me about your business plan. What do you think you want to do? Are you going to grow? Are you going to stabilize? You're going to sell? What are you thinking about doing in the next three to five years? I think you want them to ask them about your...

family and your personal life and who you support and everything else like that so they can maximize their your deductions. I think they want to get in they want to get into your business and talk to you a little bit about how they're planning to grow their business. Okay. And I think they want to you want them to ask you questions about this is an interesting way. What have you paid for outside the business that you may be using in your business?

I will run into plenty of times where it's like, you know, I bought this pickup truck and I never really put it in the business, even though I use it for the business. It's finding those misplaced assets. You know what I mean? And it's really what you want is somebody that's going to ask a lot of questions. And really get it out of spending not only your business life and your personal life and where you spend your money.

John Jantsch (19:43.067)

All right.

John Jantsch (19:49.861)

So this is a tricky question, the only tricky question I'm gonna ask you. How far do you think people should push it? So there's some things that's like, that's kind of gray or I mean, it's in the code, but you really would have to document every second you did that or so. I mean, how far do you just kind of say, let's take advantage of what they're giving us without killing ourselves?

Peter Holtz (19:53.242)

Okay.

Peter Holtz (20:12.847)

Yeah. You know, I think,

You know, the line is tax law, right? I think you want to go up to that line. Okay. In all cases, right? I'll give you a good example. have an airline pilot that once wanted to claim to be a real estate professional, yet he was getting a very substantial W-2 from the airline business. Well, upon further research, airline pilots can only fly 20 hours a week. And when this guy was on layover or waiting to fly, he was doing his real estate portfolio.

He had multiple properties. He was managing contractors. He was collecting rents. was doing this. So we got him declared a real estate professional, even though under full-time W-2. And it worked. And now he can take all the depreciation from his real estate against his W-2. And it was pushing the limit because the IRS came back. And they said to us, this guy's got a six-figure W-2. What are you guys crazy? And it's like,

John Jantsch (20:46.715)

Yeah.

Peter Holtz (21:13.563)

Federal law says he can only fly 20 hours a week. It's a part-time job. And we were able to prove that he was working 25 hours a week on his real estate portfolio.

John Jantsch (21:23.109)

Yeah, well, that's a great one too, because you had the backing of that. You know, it wasn't him just saying, I only work 20 hours a week. was literally like, I can't.

Peter Holtz (21:31.396)

Yeah, exactly. you know, the other great news, he was an airline pilot and you know, airline pilots are fastidious about keeping records. So he was very, very, he had all the contemporaneous records that we could possibly need. And the IRS was like, well, we got nothing. Right. So sometimes it's worth the challenge when you think, and once you, once you get through that challenge in one year, he's, he's, he's been able to do this now for five, six, seven years.

John Jantsch (21:38.491)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (21:48.027)

Yeah

Peter Holtz (21:58.694)

which has been amazing. So I think you want to take it to the tax law. I don't think you want to break the tax law. I think everybody needs to understand where the Internal Revenue Service is right now too. They're in a mess. It is a, I would say, unqualified disaster, the Internal Revenue Service. Their staff has been cut 25%. They're on, and these are not my opinions, these are facts.

John Jantsch (22:10.074)

Yeah, yeah.

Peter Holtz (22:26.329)

when they, and you can chat GBT this stuff or whatever from their announcements, when the government is shut down, half their operation is shut down. They've actually told people, when you file, you need to have your refund direct deposited, otherwise you'll wait another six to eight weeks to get a paper check, because they're not processing paper. And they're letting their automated systems run, but they're not processing the paper that would feed into the automated system.

52 % of the letters that are being sent by the IRS are incorrect. It's probably much higher now because of the current situations. I mean, there's nothing the people in the IRS can really do about it because we've had conversations we've never had with the Internal Revenue Service before where it's like, hey, we need to talk to a revenue officer to help this client take care of a balanced past due and to work out a payment plan. And the IRS will tell us, well, there's nobody available.

John Jantsch (22:59.803)

You

Peter Holtz (23:23.665)

So it is, that's one of the things you want to factor in, in terms of what you decide what to do and understanding that the Internal Revenue Service is not the efficient organization. I won't, I'm not even gonna say it that way. It's not as good as used to be and it never was the efficient organization. I mean, COVID, during COVID there, so much stuff disappeared. So many things disappeared. Paper that was filed and it was just a nightmare.

John Jantsch (23:40.482)

Right?

John Jantsch (23:54.299)

Hmm.

Peter Holtz (23:54.405)

I mean, millions upon millions of documents at once.

John Jantsch (23:58.533)

Well, I'm fearful we're going to go down a rabbit hole here that we won't be able to recover from. So Peter, where would you invite people? I appreciate you stopping by. Where would you invite people to learn more about the work that you do and connect with you?

Peter Holtz (24:03.493)

We definitely could if we want to.

Peter Holtz (24:14.039)

at go.peterholtz.com.

John Jantsch (24:22.765)

Awesome. Backslash Ducktape, because he's going to have all kinds of freebies for you there if you go there, right?

Peter Holtz (24:27.791)

Yeah, we got some goodies in there. have self-assessment PDF we have in there. We also offer a free tax strategy meeting with our team. And it's not really anything to do with the IRS, but we can definitely take a look at that tax strategies you currently have in play and look at the last couple of years tax returns and see what we can do to help you out.

John Jantsch (24:46.127)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll maybe we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road, Peter. Thanks.

Peter Holtz (24:51.398)

Sounds good. Thanks, John. Great meeting you.

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Upskilling Your Team for What’s Next

Upskilling Your Team for What’s Next written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Rob Levin, serial
entrepreneur, chairman and co-founder of Work Better Now, and author of
The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team.

With over 30 years of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses solve persistent
talent challenges, Rob shares why the traditional hiring “playbook” no longer works. He
explains how the pandemic, generational shifts, remote work, and artificial intelligence
have fundamentally changed the talent landscape.

The conversation explores the hidden talent crisis facing SMBs, why culture is more critical
than ever, how to rethink KPIs in a remote-first world, and what it really means to become
an AI-first organization. If you’re still managing talent like it’s 2016, this episode offers
a roadmap for building a future-ready team.

Guest Bio: Rob Levin

Rob Levin is a serial entrepreneur and business growth expert with more than three decades
of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses thrive. He is the chairman and co-founder
of Work Better Now, a company that empowers U.S.-based SMBs to access highly skilled remote
professionals, particularly from Latin America, to overcome hiring bottlenecks and build
high-performing teams.

Rob is the author of The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team,
where he outlines a modern approach to talent strategy in an era defined by remote work,
rapid technological change, and AI disruption.

Key Takeaways

1. The Talent Crisis Is Really a Talent Shift

Despite headlines about layoffs, many small and mid-sized businesses still struggle to fill
critical roles. The skills needed to succeed in large enterprises often do not translate to
the owner-minded, adaptable talent required in SMBs.

2. The Old Hiring Playbook Is Obsolete

Many business owners are still operating as if it’s 2016. Power dynamics have shifted, top
performers have more leverage, and younger generations prioritize culture and meaning at work
more than previous generations.

3. Culture Is a Strategic Advantage

A clearly defined set of core values is the foundation of a strong culture—especially in remote
and hybrid environments. Companies should hire and fire based on core values and intentionally
build a culture that embraces change.

4. Remote Teams Require Structure and Over-Communication

In a remote environment, clarity and communication must be intentional. Weekly meetings,
consistent updates, and well-defined KPIs are essential to maintaining alignment and accountability.

5. KPIs Benefit Employees as Much as Employers

Well-designed KPIs are not just management tools—they give employees clarity on expectations and
what it means to “win” in their role. A lack of KPIs often signals unclear leadership rather than
poor employee performance.

6. Upskilling Is a Competitive Imperative

As technology and AI reshape roles, companies must identify the new capabilities they need and
aggressively invest in training. Affordable and high-quality education is widely available, and
businesses should leverage it.

7. Business Owners Must Lead the AI Shift

Before expecting teams to use AI effectively, business owners must gain hands-on experience
themselves. Understanding AI’s capabilities firsthand enables leaders to redesign workflows,
not just automate existing tasks.

8. Move from Doing the Work to Managing AI

The future of many roles will involve managing, refining, and validating AI output rather than
executing routine tasks. Organizations must help employees transition from task execution to AI
supervision and optimization.

9. Become AI-First, Not AI-Improved

Rather than using AI to enhance existing workflows, companies should rethink processes from the
ground up with AI doing much of the heavy lifting. This mindset shift can dramatically improve
productivity and scalability.

10. Global Talent Expands Your Competitive Edge

Expanding your hiring reach beyond local markets—across the U.S., Latin America, and beyond—opens
access to skilled professionals and helps solve persistent hiring bottlenecks.

Great Moments from the Episode

• 00:03 – Introduction to Rob Levin and The New Talent Playbook
• 01:14 – Why the talent market has fundamentally changed since the pandemic
• 02:15 – From “They’re lucky to have a job” to employee leverage
• 04:11 – Why layoffs don’t solve the SMB talent shortage
• 06:02 – Understanding the hidden talent crisis
• 08:27 – Identifying new capabilities and upskilling your team
• 10:53 – Why business owners must take hands-on AI training
• 11:56 – Becoming an AI-first organization
• 13:20 – Why culture matters more than ever
• 14:23 – Managing culture in remote and fractional teams
• 16:41 – Why KPIs are more for employees than employers
• 18:26 – Using AI as a thought partner for performance measurement
• 19:45 – What Rob would update in the AI chapter today
• 21:28 – Addressing employee fears about AI replacing jobs
• 22:42 – Where to find The New Talent Playbook and connect with Rob

Quotes

“There’s such a long list of changes, but the biggest one is that the old talent playbook just doesn’t work anymore.”

“KPIs are actually more for the employee than the employer. They give clarity on what winning looks like.”

“Don’t just use AI to improve a workflow. Redesign the workflow so AI is doing the heavy lifting.”

“You’re only scratching the surface of what AI can do for your company if you’re not using it as a thought partner.”

Resources Mentioned

• The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team by Rob Levin
• Work Better Now – Nearshore talent solutions for SMBs
• National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) hiring trend surveys

Connect with Rob Levin

• Website
• LinkedIn

 

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:03.266)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rob Levin. He's a serial entrepreneur and business growth expert with more than 30 years of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses thrive by solving their most persistent talent challenges. He's the chairman and co-founder of Work Better Now, a company that empowers US-based SMBs to access highly skilled remote professionals, particularly.

from Latin America to overcome hiring bottlenecks and build teams that drive growth and innovation. But today we're going to focus on his newest book, the new talent playbook, the ultimate guide for building your dream team. So Rob, welcome to the show.

Rob Levin (00:46.516)

Thanks, John. Great to see you.

John Jantsch (00:48.632)

So.

You were before we even got started, you were talking about the speed of change and that's really what's going to be my first question. I mean, you've worked with, I've worked with small businesses for decades. in your view, what's changed the most about hiring in the last, I was going to say five years, but I I could say five months, I guess. And what, what prompted you to write the new talent, playbook?

Rob Levin (01:14.184)

Yeah, and I'm going to if it's okay, John, I want to go beyond hiring. I just want to talk about talent in general. And a ton has changed. And in fact, what the reason the reason I wrote the book is I still I saw how the talent market changed. And I can talk a little bit about that. But I also saw how business owners were still

John Jantsch (01:18.638)

See you soon.

Rob Levin (01:35.142)

running the same talent playbooks, if you will, as if it was 2016. And a lot really changed in the pandemic. So let's talk about what's changed. There's such a long list. I'll mention a few things. Number one, younger, let's put it this way. And now it's arguable whether this happens every generation or so or not. But younger generations in the workforce, at least I'm hearing this from business owners like myself, Gen Xers.

baby boomers, the younger generations of the workforce work differently than the older ones do. And I think a lot of business owners are having trouble understanding that. The biggest change perhaps out of all of them, and I have so many of them, but the one I think to focus in on is...

It's and you wouldn't know this from reading the headlines, but it's there's I used to call it a talent crisis. In fact, in the book, I call it a talent crisis. I'm not calling it a talent shift where it's really hard for small and mid-sized businesses to find the talent that they need. And this cascades to the point where it also means that they may be holding on to employees that are not the right people for them to grow going going forward. And and one way to think about

how people's mindsets have not yet changed is you and I are old enough to remember when you used to hear bosses say something like, they're lucky to have a job, right? And there's still people with a similar type mentality and that has totally changed. A lot of the power, if you will, and I don't really like to look at it that way, but it's a way that people understand has shifted the employee side, particularly those top performers that we all want in our business.

John Jantsch (03:07.862)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:20.32)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:26.638)

You know, it's interesting you met at the outset of that. You mentioned the idea that, you know, probably every generation thinks this and I, and I, I suspect there's some truth to that, but it feels like the gap's bigger now because it's, it feels like a bigger shift. Again, I've only been through one generation, so to speak. Uh, but it feels like it is, um, you know, talk to me a little bit about the fact that I like, I'm talking to a lot of people, uh, uh, a lot of my peers, a lot of your peers, you know, have kids getting out of college. Um, and.

They're saying, you know, it's terrible out there. The job market's, you know, absolute disaster out there, you know, for people coming out of college. And yet, you you just referenced the idea that the leverage is actually kind of with the job seeker. So how do you kind of balance that?

Rob Levin (04:11.624)

That's a great, great question. I have two kids in college and I'm worried about their job prospects. I'm actually telling them to start their own businesses. So if you look at the headlines, the headlines are mass layoffs, right? True. The headlines are AI is going to take jobs away, which I believe is true. And it may even start, it may start to be happening right now. That said,

John Jantsch (04:20.7)

I'm

Rob Levin (04:39.634)

You know, in a business, when you're running your own business, you don't have an HR department, you don't have a training department, or most companies don't have a training department. What are you dealing with? You need people that have experience, that have an owner's mentality, you need that in a small business, you don't get that, you know, somebody working in a large business rarely has that, you don't necessarily need that skill set. In fact, you probably don't want that skill set in a larger business.

And you need somebody you you meet need somebody with at least some experience Those people are hard to find and the thing also thing to remember is like well, you know, you might say well All of these layoffs are happening So these people are now available the skill sets that you need to thrive in a large business are not necessarily the same skill sets That are needed in a small or mid-sized business and the data backs this up You're probably familiar with NFIB National Federation and it's been around forever. They do they do a survey or poll. I think it's

John Jantsch (05:31.79)

Sure.

Rob Levin (05:36.682)

every month. And you'll routinely see, I think it's about a third of small and mid-sized businesses cannot fill roles.

John Jantsch (05:45.198)

Thanks

John Jantsch (05:48.504)

So one of the things you talk a lot about and you mentioned it a couple of times, I wonder if you could kind of lay out this idea of the hidden talent crisis that you've really been speaking so much about.

Rob Levin (06:02.418)

Yeah, it's pretty much what we're talking about. It's just really hard to find great talent, at least within the US, and we could talk about.

One of the chapters of book is about, you know, expanding your reach, not only expanding it so that you can hire people remotely throughout the U.S. or maybe throughout North America, but also Latin America, even even Asia. So you have that and a lot of companies also where they're struggling is the other thing that's changing beyond talent is everything else in business, right? So technology is driving so much change. A.I. is, of course, a great example. I don't have to tell you marketing has changed how much in the past five years.

John Jantsch (06:34.638)

Yeah, yeah.

Rob Levin (06:43.408)

compared to the past 20 or 30 years, right? And what does this mean for small and mid-sized businesses? It means that they need new capabilities. And their current employees, if they...

John Jantsch (06:45.102)

Sure. Yep.

Rob Levin (06:54.79)

Hopefully there's an opportunity to upskill them, which is a big part that I think I dedicate about half of a chapter to upskilling your current employees to bring in those new capabilities in your company. if your people are not upskillable, if you will, then you have a serious problem on your hands, especially if it's hard to hire the people that have those capabilities that you need to bring into your company.

John Jantsch (07:10.894)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:20.558)

Yeah, so there's a couple of things to unpack there. I would suggest, you know, a lot of people talking about all these jobs going away. In one hand, they are, but I think what they're doing is they're shifting to a new set of, you know, capabilities that somebody needs to have. So yeah, some of the routine stuff that you just needed somebody that, you know, that could put in the hours to do the tasks, those are certainly are going to be things that AI does pretty well. And those jobs are going to go away, but

by the same sense, this idea then of who's making decisions about what's good and what's bad, what's the right decision, what's not, what's on brand, what's not. I I think those people are going to remain humans, but they might either need to be different humans than you have today, or as you said, upskill. So how do you take somebody that you hired essentially to do tasks, because that's how you saw the role, who now really needs to do something that

you didn't hire them for, they may be capable of doing, but you didn't hire them for that. I mean, how do you make that assessment, but then also how do you make that leap?

Rob Levin (08:27.24)

Yeah, so let's do this in a general sense and then we can drill down to AI because I think AI is very specific.

situation, although AI probably has a lot to do with the new capabilities that a lot of companies, need. So the first thing to do is identify the new capability you need in your company. So, you know, I'm talking to Mr. Marketing here. So, you know, the marketing capabilities have are, are, changing. And the first thing you have to do is recognize, well, what is it that you need? And then the question is, is, you know, do I have somebody on the marketing team that is up skillable? Do they have the.

Do they have the desire to learn something new? Do they have that ability? Do they have the ability to not only learn it, but then bring that capability internal? And here's the good news about all of this is that

the training, you if it's a new capability, you're have to look external for training, which is totally fine. In fact, companies should get really aggressive about this because there's so much good training out there. Much of it is low cost, if not free. You know, for example, on the marketing side, HubSpot, all of the major CRM and marketing platforms are all offering training, teaching you exactly what needs to be done. Because a lot of this a lot of the changes in marketing, of course, are technology based. So again, identifying what you know, what is

John Jantsch (09:27.224)

Yes.

Rob Levin (09:46.146)

it that I need and then finding the person in your company, giving them the time to do it, obviously paying for any fees that might be there and having an understanding with that person that look, I'm going to invest in the training for you. This is good for you and your career. I do expect that you bring those capabilities in and then when they do that, be prepared to give them a promotion and the raise that they're probably looking for. Everybody wins. talking about AI, AI in

particular, my personal opinion on this, having done this myself, is that I think every business owner needs to go through a hands on AI course first, you need to really understand what the capabilities of AI are. Before you can start to look at people on your team. All right, I need you to, you know, pick up this AI capability, let's say with marketing or with operations or, etc. I think the owner needs to have some level of understanding

And in my opinion is that you need to do some hands-on AI training yourself first. I think everybody needs to do that.

John Jantsch (10:53.646)

Well, I think in a lot of ways, what's holding some people back is it's going to require, I think, a total mindset shift. You know, there are definitely people who are looking at AI and just saying, oh, we can do that task that used to be done by this person faster, you know, as opposed to like restructure how they even think about their organization. And so I think, I think in some cases, you know, instead of diving into how does this tool work, it's more how do I structure my entire organization, you know, for a new reality.

Rob Levin (11:23.698)

Right, and that's why I think.

that the owners AI training that they should go through has to be hands on because then you'll actually start to see what the when you actually start to build something with AI, a light bulb will go will probably go off in your head and you'll see what what what AI is capable of. And then we're using the term at work better now. We're using the term AI first. We're now which which what that means is not to use AI to improve an existing workflow. But let's have let's have that workflow totally

John Jantsch (11:29.934)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:36.13)

Right.

John Jantsch (11:47.726)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rob Levin (11:56.304)

redesign where AI is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. And of course, that's going to come with a lot of retraining of our team to go from doing the work to managing the AI agent or what bot or whatever you want to call it that's going to be doing the work. you know, there's another fundamental thing that really should happen.

before all of this. And this is a big part of how the talent game has changed a lot over the past 10 years with an emphasis on the past few. So culture in your group that has always been important, it is by far more important than ever. It is so important today. And why is that? Well, number one, I just give you a few data, not data points, but sound bites for this. Number one, the younger generations, and there are, there's plenty of good workers

John Jantsch (12:30.051)

Yes.

Rob Levin (12:47.082)

those younger generations. Culture matters a lot to them. Culture, meaning, right? So that alone should wake everybody up and say, hey, this isn't something maybe I focused on in the past, but I'm gonna start focusing on it now. And I dedicate a whole chapter in the book on it.

But also, not only just having a healthy culture, but let's have a culture of accepting change and figuring out how to harness change as opposed to, you know, kind of push it off to the side, which a lot of people are still doing.

John Jantsch (13:20.366)

So there's a couple issues I was going to bring culture up. So perfect segue. There's a couple of things that I know are dear and dear, dear and dear to you because it really impacts the business work better now structure. So when you mentioned culture, you know, a lot of organizations, small businesses today, you know, this used to just be, you know, a foreign thing, but today have fractional just about everything. They bring in contractors to do certain jobs.

Certainly Work Better Now's entire business model is placing employees who are remote. So how do you manage culture? It's obviously one way to do it in an organization where everybody's there, they're all in the seats, you have the company lunches. I mean, you do a lot of the things that can build some of that. How do you manage that when you have part-time people, you have remote people, you have...

you folks that are from different cultures, you know, for example, as Work Better Now really supports them. I'm curious if you ever get any pushback from that, you know, that very thing.

Rob Levin (14:23.604)

We used to get a little bit, it's going away rapidly. So in terms of our experience, but what I will also tell you is that in my opinion, and this has worked for us, it worked better now, in my opinion, the starting point is defining your core values, right? So in other words, your core values are essentially like, what do want our culture to be?

John Jantsch (14:40.334)

All right.

Rob Levin (14:45.364)

So for example, some of ours is we put our talent first, we believe in excellence, and so on and so forth. And we recognize on those, we hire based on them. When we have to fire, we fire based on those. So there's a little bit of clarity there, starting with those core values. Then the next thing you do in a remote environment, and by the way, it doesn't matter whether somebody's in three states over or the next continent over, remote's remote, is we over-communicate.

We over communicate. we have a weekly staff meeting that we have. We have teams. have updates on teams. We reiterate anything that's important on email. It's really, really important to over communicate. Then I'll also add that KPIs in a remote environment, KPIs are important period, but KPIs for every job and several KPIs when possible for every single role in the company is extremely

important because at least now you have something you can measure people on. And then also, this is one that I only talk a little bit about it in the book, but it's been coming up in conversations a lot more lately, is something as simple as clarity.

You know, I was talking with a business owner last week. can't remember what the role was that they were discussing in their company. It was actually in my, in one of my CEO peer groups. And I said, you know, the way you're talking about this, I don't think you made it very clear. And this is a very polished business owner. I don't think you made it very clear what your expectations were. And then I don't think you had the proper check-ins to make sure that this person was on track. So when people are in the same office.

It's a little easier, right? There's the water cooler. You just kind of roll your chair back and say, hey, how are we doing with this project? In a remote environment, you need a little bit more structure. That's also where the communications come into play.

John Jantsch (16:41.72)

Yeah. You you mentioned that KPIs and I think a lot of people don't realize that those are a two way street as well. You know, I mean, lot of business owners are like, I'm giving you these so that, you know, I know if you're on track measuring you, but I've talked to a lot of employees. They're like, thank God you gave me these. I have, so I know what I'm supposed to do here. I know how to win. Because I think a lot of times it's just like, do the work and you know, hope everybody's happy. And so I think that,

Rob Levin (17:01.748)

That's right.

John Jantsch (17:11.22)

we sometimes probably underestimate those KPIs are as much for that employee as they are for us.

Rob Levin (17:17.492)

think they're actually more for the employee. And if anything, when I see a company that doesn't have KPIs, more often than not, what has happened is that the employer or the manager, whomever it is who has the responsibility of overseeing somebody, has not really figured it out themselves what's important in its role. So how can you have clarity?

John Jantsch (17:20.13)

More? agree.

John Jantsch (17:36.812)

Right? Right. Right. Yeah.

Rob Levin (17:41.172)

you know, when you yourself don't know. And it's not okay to say, I know it when I see it, because it doesn't work when you're on the receiving end.

John Jantsch (17:47.438)

Yeah. You know, and one of the beauties of AI quite frankly is that you can go to a chat GPT or whatever tool, you know, even if it hasn't been trained that much and you can actually ask it what here's our goal. You here's what we're trying to do. What should we be measuring? I mean, instead of trying to sit around and go, okay, I need to write all these job descriptions and KPIs or whatnot, you know, just, just have a conversation with these tools and, and it, you know, it,

may not be tuned 100 % to you because it's kind of doing the average of what the world does out there, but it may be a great way to start rather than you just saying, don't know where to start.

Rob Levin (18:26.514)

Yeah. You know, I, what, what, one of the things that frustrates me even pre AI, but certainly now in this AI world is when somebody's like, well, I'm going to do it this way, as opposed to actually trying to research the best practice, which pre AI you can do based on an internet search now with AI, right. it's, it's inexcusable to not have tapped into this wealth of knowledge, right.

John Jantsch (18:42.914)

Sure.

John Jantsch (18:51.554)

Benchmark your industry no matter what the size your business is, right? Yeah, exactly.

Rob Levin (18:54.098)

Yeah. And by the way, you know, yes, absolutely, you should be doing this and for every role and that'll help you come up with the KPIs and projects and even qualitative ways to assess people and communicate what the role is all about. But let's also be clear, John, and you and I know this and I hope everybody's understanding this. You're only scratching the surface about what with what AI can do for your company by using it as a thought partner, which is what we're talking about.

John Jantsch (19:21.966)

Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, what have you learned since you wrote the book and since you've been out there talking to people about the book? I asked that question specifically or maybe because I've written books and I just always know that like I'll have conversations or I'll go on speaking and somebody will say something to me. I'll go, dang, I wish I would have put that in the book. That's great. I'm curious if you had any of those a-ha's.

Rob Levin (19:45.78)

Well, it's slightly different. The biggest aha I have is what we were just talking about. the AI chapter of my book was written a little over a year ago. you know, now what's in there still applies, which what I said a little over a year ago was experiment and encourage everybody to experiment. By now, yeah, you have to do that, by the way, you should do that. Now it's take a course and figure out.

What are some of the biggest challenges you have in your business and how can AI help you with those challenges, not only as a thought partner, but actually in doing the work? then you have to start to think about...

And if I was writing the book today, this is what would be in it regarding AI is how do you get your team to go from doing the work to managing the AI, refining it, checking the results? Because AI is not going to get it perfect all the time, but it's going to do a great job in a lot less time. And again, we're only scratching the surface on what the capabilities are.

John Jantsch (20:52.152)

Well, it's interesting. mean, you could, you could really point to that as maybe the major mind shift that the companies need to have is to start encouraging employees to, to do just what you said. How can you get AI to do this work? Especially a lot of the routine kind of stuff. But I'm sure you're hearing from people that are, you know, the employee is like, yeah, work myself out of a job. Great. So I do see that fear, you know, is that a lot of companies are just going into people and saying,

figure out how to use AI to do your job. And I think the implied issue with that is like, then I won't have a job.

Rob Levin (21:28.884)

Right. Which, which, you know, I guess it's on us employers to, to manage that. And I can tell you what we're doing at Work Better Now, which is we're telling everybody, look, this is the direction we're going in. We're going to provide the training and then it's on the employee really to pick up the ball and to do it. And we told everybody we are not, we have no plans on any layoffs. We are expanding, we're growing. And with AI, we just hopefully are not going to have to add.

John Jantsch (21:35.939)

Yeah.

Rob Levin (21:58.46)

a lot of headcount, right? And yet, you know, we'll we should see improved outcomes. And I think this is an opportunity for all of our employees, because we are going to work, I guess you can say kind of like pioneering, you know, company or space in our size. And, you know, we we're making it very clear, like, look, as long as you figure this out, again, we're providing the training, you know, your your job is safe. In fact, your job is going to be more important

John Jantsch (22:12.812)

Yes.

Rob Levin (22:28.374)

than ever.

John Jantsch (22:29.944)

Yes, be more productive. Well, Robert, I appreciate you taking the moment to stop by the Ductate Marketing Podcast, anywhere you want to invite people to find out more, to connect with you, of course, but then also find out more about your work and find out more about your writing.

Rob Levin (22:42.472)

Yeah, you can just search for New Talent Playbook if you want to pick up a copy of the book or New Talent Playbook Substack or podcast. Just Google that in and it'll pop right up. And of course, if you are looking for offshore talent, near shore talent in our case, that's WorkBetterNow.com.

John Jantsch (22:59.286)

Well again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully you've dug out of that snowstorm in New York.

Rob Levin (23:04.936)

Yeah, thanks, John, and great to see you. Thanks for having me on show.

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