Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy

Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” Drawing on over 15 years of experience in every agency role—from intern to CEO—Sara explains why the traditional marketing agency model is broken for both clients and agencies. She introduces the “anti-agency” approach: a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled model designed to help small businesses own their marketing instead of renting it. The discussion covers timeless principles, the new role of the fractional CMO, how to leverage AI for impact (not just efficiency), and the steps any business can take to reclaim control and clarity.

About the Guest

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” With two decades of hands-on experience, Sara is a leading voice in strategy-first marketing systems for small businesses. She has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and agencies design sustainable, scalable growth through a blend of foundational principles and forward-thinking technology. Sara is a sought-after speaker and advocate for empowering business owners to take back ownership of their marketing.

• Website: unchainedmodel.com
• LinkedIn: Sara Nay

Actionable Insights

• The traditional agency model struggles with client demands, scope creep, profitability, and talent retention—especially as AI transforms execution.
• The “anti-agency” model empowers small businesses to stop renting their marketing and start owning it, with strategy and leadership at the center.
• Timeless marketing principles (ideal client, deep messaging, strategy before tactics) are more important than ever in the AI era.
• Rushing into AI tools without strategy amplifies chaos and inconsistency—start with business and marketing goals, then select and train the right tools.
• Fractional CMOs offer small businesses affordable, high-level leadership, managing strategy, budget, and metrics while leveraging lean teams and AI systems.
• Owning your marketing brings control, clarity, and the ability to scale—CEOs should focus on their “zone of genius” and let marketing leaders orchestrate execution.
• Agencies must shift from execution services to strategic leadership and AI-empowered team enablement to remain relevant.
• Every business can start reclaiming ownership by auditing team structure, clarifying partnerships, and aligning technology to strategy.
• AI should be used to elevate human talent, not replace it—future-proof your team and business by identifying high-impact skills and integrating AI support.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:06 – Why the Traditional Agency Model is Broken
  Sara shares her experience across agency roles and the pain points that inspired “Unchained.”
• 03:02 – Defining the Anti-Agency Model
  How AI and strategy are turning the old agency/client relationship upside down.
• 04:59 – Timeless Marketing Principles in the Age of AI
  Why ideal client profiles and deep messaging still matter most.
• 07:07 – The Dangers of Jumping Into AI Without Strategy
  Sara explains how “amplified chaos” is the real risk for small businesses.
• 08:55 – The New Org Chart: Fractional CMOs and AI-Powered Teams
  How small businesses can afford leadership and execution at scale.
• 11:05 – From Renting to Owning Your Marketing
  The mindset and structural shifts required for true business growth and clarity.
• 14:26 – How Agencies Must Evolve to Stay Relevant
  Why leadership, strategy, and AI team enablement are the future of agency services.
• 16:06 – Practical Steps for Taking Ownership This Week
  Sara’s advice for businesses ready to move from chaos to control.
• 18:08 – Elevating Your Team With AI
  How to future-proof your people and business by blending skills and technology.

Pulled Quotes

“Stop renting your marketing and start owning it. With the right strategy, small businesses can take back control and scale with confidence.”
— Sara Nay

“AI should be used to elevate your team—not replace them. Future-proof your business by blending technology with high-impact human skills.”
— Sara Nay

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, where she spent over 15 years helping small businesses build strategy-first marketing systems that actually work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small business reality from every angle as a teenager, as a team member, as a fractional CMO, and now as the CEO. In her new book,

Unchained, she makes the case that traditional agency model is broken, both for the clients and agencies and lays out a practical AI enabled strategy first approach she calls the anti-agency model. We're going to touch on that. Permission helps small business owners stop renting their marketing and start owning it. Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (00:53.858)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:55.778)

So you and I have been talking about marketing models for a long time. Was there a time when you kind of said, you know what, the agency model is broken and I got to create something different?

Sara Nay (01:06.455)

Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, I've been part of the agency space for about 15 years. And in that journey, I've moved from intern to community manager, account manager, fractional CMO for our clients among other roles. And so I've really been in all the different areas of the agency space. And throughout that journey, there's definitely been times where I've noticed things that didn't quite feel right in the agency space. And even further than that,

there have been several moments over the last 15 years where I've been burnt out and on the brink of saying, does this make sense to pursue even more, even further? And so I've lived a lot of challenges along the way and there's no secret in the challenges I've seen. think a lot of people experience this in the agency space. And so starting on that side, on the agency side of things, there's challenges with meeting client demands and managing scope creep and scaling and maintaining profitability and

retaining great talent and those are a lot of the things that I've heard from other agency owners struggling with, but I've also experienced it myself. Also in my roles, I've been on in the sales side of our business for a while now. So I've spoken with hundreds of small business owners who have worked with different agencies or outsourced solutions over those years. And I have heard all of their stories of

things along the lines of marketing doesn't work or I'm paying this agency for X and I have no idea if I'm getting results or if anything's happening with my marketing efforts. And so there's been a lot of this going on for years in the agency space. But I think it's becoming more more heightened now with the evolution of AI.

John Jantsch (02:49.518)

So you actually use the term anti-agency model. Now know you're not an agency hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and not just a better agency.

Sara Nay (03:02.379)

Yeah. So the whole play with the anti-agency model, as you identified, like obviously we're not anti-agency. We're an agency ourselves. We have been for 31 years. We love agencies. And so I do keep, I keep explaining that because I don't want people to think this book is against agencies, but what it's with the anti-agency, what it's saying is the model is broken essentially for some of the points that I had highlighted just a second ago. So it's anti-agency model specifically.

And so the way we have been doing and functioning for years as agencies were being forced in some ways to evolve because of the evolution of AI. so previously to AI, it made sense for agencies to hold onto things like marketing, execution, content, social, SEO, paid ads, all of the execution elements. But with the evolution of AI, I believe small businesses are able to take some of that stuff in-house.

They still need strategic leadership and direction, but they now have an opportunity to stay a little bit more lean with their in-house marketing team by layering in AI systems below them to help with the heavy lifting of execution. And so that's the whole idea of stop renting your marketing and taking back ownership of your marketing. You still need strategy. You still need direction. You still need leadership.

But now you can build a marketing department or team that is a bit leaner because they're overseeing orchestration of marketing, which is done by AI systems.

John Jantsch (04:39.086)

So one of the things you and I talk about a lot, cause I say it all the time is I, you know, I've been doing this 30 years and while a lot of new shiny things have come along, the fundamentals of marketing have not really changed or what we're here to do as marketers has not really changed that much. What timeless principles do you think from, our system? As you know, it's still worked today.

Sara Nay (04:59.085)

Yeah. And so that's the second really section of the book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless principles. And so some of the things that I touch on there are things like target market, identifying your clients on a very deep level. I think that's becoming even more and more important with the evolution of AI, because what I see is a lot of small businesses bringing in something like a chat, GBT or a clod or whatever their tool of choices. And they'll start just like,

creating content and so it's all over the place. It's not consistent. It's not on on brand. And so in your original book duct tape marketing, you talked a lot about identifying your ideal client on a deep level, understanding them emotionally, what keeps them up at night, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you still need to understand your clients on a very deep level. But then if you're going to bring in an AI tool, you then need to train the chat, you'd be to your tool of your choice that you bring in.

on that information. So when you're creating content moving forward, you're creating content that speaks to your ideal client on a deep level and isn't just generic. Another timeless foundational principle is core messaging. We talk a lot about that over the years. So identifying your core message or we've talked a lot about talking logo as well. And so that's really identifying what makes you unique, but also what messaging resonates with that ideal client.

That is still incredibly important today, but it's also important to take that messaging and train your AI tools of choice on that messaging as well. So again, you're not creating generic content, you're creating content that speaks to your ideal clients with the messaging you've identified is really important. And so those foundations are still the same, but the way we're using them is evolving a bit because of the technology that's now available.

John Jantsch (06:48.733)

So, you know, we've, we're all seeing people run into AI and just like, look what it can do, makes life faster, better, cheaper. Um, where do you think the danger of this, that like eyes wide open, you know, jump in and start using the tools? What do you think the danger of that is for many small businesses?

Sara Nay (07:07.987)

It complicates things that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that's already there. It causes so many issues for the internal team or the team using the program, but also for the clients and prospects that you're putting out content to as well. And so it's causing confusion in both of those areas. And so a lot of what I encourage small businesses to do is take a step back.

John Jantsch (07:12.916)

amplifies the chaos that's already there, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:33.767)

And if you've been following duct tape marketing for any period of time, you've heard us say strategy before tactics. But it's now strategy before tactics and technology is the conversation we're having with clients. And so if you're thinking about, okay, we need to be using AI tools instead of just diving into tools first, take a step back and answer some very important questions as to what's the business actually trying to accomplish? What's the marketing strategy look like based on that?

What's the team strategy or what's our current team structure look like? And then you can say, okay, what tools can help us accomplish our goals? And then once you identify what the tools are, you then need to train the tools on your strategy that you would have created to then get to the point where you're ready to execute on them efficiently. So don't dive into tools, take a step back, create the strategy, and then answer the question of what tools are gonna help us get from where we are today to where we're trying to go.

John Jantsch (08:30.936)

So, you know, the fractional CMO plus concept is a big part of our model. what do you tell that small business owner that's got kind of a smaller budget and it's thinking, I really just need somebody to do stuff rather than like, you know, I can't really afford or I, or maybe I'm not big enough to even think about the idea of having fractional leadership. What do you say to that business as to why they need to maybe change their mindset?

Sara Nay (08:55.403)

Yeah, I mean, think, again, I keep going back to AI, but it's causing small business owners or small businesses an opportunity that we haven't had before. so, you previously, let's think of traditional marketing org chart. You would have a CMO in a company and then you would have a lot of different executors under them, essentially. So you'd have like a paid specialist, an email marketing specialist, a social, you know, all of the different channels and categories. That's never really been feasible to small businesses because

they wouldn't even have a budget for a CMO, let alone all the other people that are involved in that story. And so I think the best opportunity that small businesses have is right now in terms of the org chart, because you can bring in a fractional CMO. So you're not paying a full-time salary. You're paying a set fee every single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the overall strategy, managing the budget, owning the metrics.

overseeing all of the marketing department essentially. And then under that fractional CMO, believe instead of, I don't know if we're quite there yet, but the direction I believe we're going is instead of having a specialist in all the different channels, small businesses can have marketing executors that are familiar enough in writing great copy and understanding social media, but they're really systems oriented and technology first people.

where you can bring in AI systems below them to help them execute at a higher level than they've ever been before. And so now you're getting a marketing org chart with all of these different roles that you previously probably couldn't even think about affording as a small business.

John Jantsch (10:35.832)

So going back to the theme of renting, mean, the opposite of renting is owning. and so to a large degree, you know, what you're describing there is kind of that path towards owning your, your marketing, you know, as a business, as opposed to maybe it wasn't even renting. was abdicating like going here, you do it. I don't care what you're doing over there, but how does that change the business owners mindset in terms of.

Sara Nay (10:54.124)

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.262)

people in terms of structure, in terms of process, if they're actually, you know, now they're going to have those people in their organization or they're going to have those functions in their organization. Who manages that? How do they hire for that? Are they, are they bringing in more overhead that makes sense for their business if they're going to start thinking that way, or is this the ultimate path to, truly scaling a business?

Sara Nay (11:16.557)

It obviously depends on the business situation, revenue size, long-term growth goals. And so there's a lot of factors that I would need to consider to answer that specifically. But for me, if you're a small business and you're looking to scale up,

when you're doing a certain level of revenue, you've been in business for a few years, let's say you've passed the 1 million revenue mark, I think it's time to start considering you need marketing leadership of some extent. And so when small businesses scale up to a certain point, if they haven't looked for marketing leadership, the CEO becomes the CMO and they either have marketing experience or they learn marketing. And now it's this necessary evil that

they're having to spend a lot of their time on where they never wanted to become a CMO in the first place. And so if you're scaling up and you have high growth goals, looking for someone like a fractional CMO, I think makes a lot of sense because the whole idea is as the CEO or founder, you stay in your zone of genius. You stay focused on the why behind you building the business in the first place. then you... In selling, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:34.798)

or in selling, you know, stuff that actually is going to make money for the business rather than you having to figure out how to manage the technology.

Sara Nay (12:46.121)

Exactly. And then you bring in a fractional CMO or a marketing leader of some extent that then is tasked with what you identified earlier in terms of managing team, bringing in partners or hiring full-time team, running the technology, building the systems and processes, running the budget and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is really tasked with leading the marketing department and working alongside you to help you reach the specific business goals that you would have laid out.

John Jantsch (13:15.566)

You know, if somebody, whoever you're working with is going to bring you strategy first, you know, as the first step, it doesn't really matter what you call that person, right? What their role is, right? I mean, it's really more the idea of thinking strategy first, isn't

Sara Nay (13:21.901)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.137)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we'll throw out all different terms. I mean, we talk a lot about fractional CMO, but if that feels like too elevated of a term, know, marketing leader, marketing strategist, marketing advisor, you know, the point is what they're doing. They're, leading the marketing initiatives and not just being an order taker.

John Jantsch (13:51.672)

So let's flip to agencies that are listening, because I know we have agencies listening as well. How do they have to shift their mindset to really stay relevant? mean, I think in some agency, you look at some of these agencies that are providing SEO and content and social media, that's their package, right, of done for you services. There might be a time in the very near future where that's just not that relevant.

Sara Nay (14:19.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.423)

or people aren't going to be willing to pay what you need to run a profitable business. So how do agencies need to shift their mindset?

Sara Nay (14:26.705)

Yeah, and there's been a lot of stuff coming out there that I've seen on LinkedIn and different articles about how many agencies are going to shut down in the next few years. I think a lot of that stuff's hard to predict, but I do think if you just keep offering execution, it's a race to the bottom in a lot of cases because small businesses, even if they're not doing it that effectively yet, they are bringing in AI solutions to cut costs in certain areas. And I think that marketing execution is one of those.

areas. And so, you know, I think if agencies keep offering execution as their core services, it's going to be very challenging in the next few years moving forward, because AI is becoming more sophisticated. So you're basically competing against AI in that scenario versus if agencies shift their offering and they step more into this leadership role, where they're, you know, focusing on strategy.

they're elevating team, it can be their own team or it can be internal team, but they're elevating humans essentially with AI systems below them. Then they're working alongside AI versus competing against it.

John Jantsch (15:35.64)

So if I'm a small business owner listening and.

Obviously picking up and reading the book is going to be step one. But what are a couple steps towards taking this ownership mentality that somebody could start this week? If you're stuck in the old kind of way of thinking, here are a couple things you can do this week to start changing your mindset or maybe even changing your marketing.

Sara Nay (16:06.165)

Yeah, of course. There's two things that come to mind right off the bat. One of the first things, and I talk about this in the book as well, is the marketing strategy pyramid. We talk a lot about it at Duck Tape Marketing, but it's really taking a step back and answering some business strategic questions first. So really analyzing what are your business goals? What are your objectives? What's your revenue? Where are you growing towards? What are your mission, vision, values? And so really analyzing some of those things.

And then thinking through what is your marketing strategy to help you move in the right direction. And then thinking through what is your team strategy. So you have to have those two bottom layers of the pyramid first to then think about team. But, know, to the question of how can businesses take back ownership when you're analyzing your team structure, think through like, these internal roles? Are we relying on outsourced vendors? If we're relying on outside outsourced vendors or solutions.

Do we have clarity and confidence and control or ownership as to what they are doing or are we kind of left in the dark? I if you're left in the dark through some of your partnerships, that's when it's time to analyze, does it make sense to continue on with this partnership or is there a way where we can get more ownership and control? So that's where I would start is kind of going back to the basics there and analyzing your current structure, your current relationships, your current team.

and making sure that you have clarity in what everyone is doing.

John Jantsch (17:35.672)

So I'm going to go a little in the weeds here on AI, mainly because it's on everybody's mind right now. There are a lot of some of these agencies that we're talking about are shifting their whole model to being calling themselves AI agencies, where they want to come in and show you how to put in agents and how to automated this and automated that. How do you think small businesses should be looking at?

Sara Nay (17:51.703)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:02.806)

I mean, I don't think we have to convince them that it's not going away, but how do you think they should be looking at getting the most out of AI as really the end to end solution or the end to end assistant at this point that it can be rather than just looking at it as, here's how I can automate stuff and or worse yet, here's how I can fire people and do more with less.

Sara Nay (18:08.909)

Yeah, a big part of that I think is doing an analysis of who's currently on your team and you're not asking the question.

How can we get more work out of them or how can we get them to move faster or be more productive? What you're answering is how can we elevate them to make more of an impact? And so one of the exercises that we've done with our team fairly recently, and this is also in the book as well, is we had everyone on our team analyze what skills are they doing on a regular basis. And then we basically had them identify what are human-led skills that they should continue to focus on, things that light them up, that they love.

And then we also had them identify what skills can be AI assisted and what skills and tasks could be executed by AI. And so we went through that exercise so people could essentially analyze their roles and think about how they could future proof their careers moving forward. And so I think that's a really great exercise for anyone listening as a business leader or for your whole entire team is you should all be thinking about how can we future proof the business as a whole.

And that's a lot of what you and I talk about when we talk about shifting our model in a new direction. But you also need to be considering everyone on your team. How can you help them elevate with AI instead of be replaced by it? And then how can you help them continue to grow and focus on the skills that are becoming more important because of the evolution of AI?

John Jantsch (19:54.414)

talking with Sarah Ney, the author of Unchained. Sarah, I appreciate you spending a few moments to talk about Unchained. Is there a place that you'd invite people to go to find out more about the work you do, of course, but then also the new book?

Sara Nay (20:08.269)

Absolutely, so unchainedmodel.com is the book's website, so love for you to check that out and also connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, my name is Sarah Ney.

John Jantsch (20:18.23)

Awesome, well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll see you one of these days soon out there on the

Sara Nay (20:24.589)

Thank you.

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Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Stacey Hylen, internationally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and author of “Hidden Profits: More Clients and Cash.” Stacey shares actionable insights on how business owners can uncover untapped revenue, raise prices with confidence, and create long-term client relationships—often without spending a dime on new marketing. The conversation covers why mindset is key, how to reposition from commodity to couture, and why small changes (like a single upsell question) can deliver massive results.

About the Guest

Stacey Hylen is a globally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and speaker who has spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs—from solo businesses to Fortune 500s—uncover hidden profits and boost performance. As a former VP for Chet Holmes International and now the author of “Hidden Profits,” Stacey is known for her practical, empowering approach to business growth.

• Website: staceyhylen.com
• Book: hiddenprofitbook.com

Actionable Insights

• Most business owners are too close to their operations to spot hidden profit opportunities—outside perspective is powerful.
• Raising prices is often the fastest path to profit, but it requires a mindset shift toward abundance and owning your expertise.
• Attracting the right clients (and letting go of the wrong ones) leads to higher revenue, less price sensitivity, and more enjoyable work.
• “Profit leaks” are caused by focusing on low-impact tasks and avoiding essential sales and marketing actions.
• Reframing sales as service (helping, not selling) builds confidence and makes it easier to attract and close ideal clients.
• Past clients are a goldmine—reactivation and “come on back” strategies can drive immediate revenue with minimal effort.
• Upsells and cross-sells (“do you want fries with that?”) at the point of sale create easy, recurring profit boosts.
• Every team member—not just sales—can (and should) look for opportunities to help clients and add value.
• Even “commodity” businesses can reposition themselves as unique, high-value partners through better packaging, messaging, and client experience.
• Small changes can have huge impact—one new question or process can increase sales by 40% or more.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 00:54 – Doubling Revenue with Hidden Profits
  Stacey shares how a client reactivated past customers and tweaked pricing for dramatic growth.
• 02:07 – Overcoming the Fear of Raising Prices
  Why mindset and confidence are essential to charging what you’re worth.
• 03:19 – The Power of Narrowing Your Focus
  How strategic positioning and language attract the right (and repel the wrong) clients.
• 04:58 – Spotting and Fixing “Profit Leaks”
  Why low-impact busywork and avoidance hold businesses back from real growth.
• 06:02 – Sales as Service, Not Selling
  Why reframing the sales conversation helps business owners overcome reluctance and get referrals.
• 08:46 – The “Come on Back” Strategy
  How one client had their best month ever by reactivating former customers—even in December.
• 10:30 – The $700,000 Mistake
  The cost of not keeping in touch—and how a single call can recover massive lost revenue.
• 12:53 – The Hidden Profits Framework
  Stacey outlines her step-by-step process for finding revenue you already have.
• 13:47 – Upsells and Cross-Sells at the Point of Sale
  Simple, proven ways to increase average transaction value.
• 15:52 – From Commodity to Couture
  How even price-driven businesses can reposition for higher profits and loyalty.
• 18:00 – Surprising Results with Small Changes
  The story of a 48% sales increase from a single upsell question.

Pulled Quotes

“Most business owners are too close to see the hidden profits in their business. It’s about getting resourceful, not just adding resources.”
— Stacey Hylen

“Sales is service. If you’re great at what you do, you owe it to your clients to help them—and that means being confident about your value.”
— Stacey Hylen

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.55)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Stacey Hylen. She's an international recognized business coach, growth strategist and speaker who spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs uncover untapped revenue and performance in their business. As a former vice president for Chet Holmes International, Stacey has worked with companies ranging from solo entrepreneurs to Fortune 500s. We're going to talk about her new book.

hidden profits, more clients and cash. So welcome to the show, Stacey.

Stacey Hylen (00:35.247)

Thanks John, I'm excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.696)

So you open actually the book with a story, which is always awesome. A business owner doubled their revenue without new marketing spend. Can you break down a little bit of the hidden profit you helped them find and, and maybe also like how they couldn't spot it themselves.

Stacey Hylen (00:54.649)

Yeah, well, the thing is, is that a lot of times when you're a business owner, you're stuck in the day to day doing all the time. so it's really, really hard to see the things for yourself. So the hidden profits came about from when I worked with Tony Robbins and he said during the recession, it's not about a lack of resources. It's about becoming more resourceful.

And so what we looked at is, all right, what are the ways that we can increase? And we looked at the different hidden profits in his business. In this case, he was able to do a come on back strategy to reactivate a bunch of the clients that, that hadn't been in his business for a while and increase his business that way. And then we also looked at tweaking his pricing because this is in a lot of places he was under pricing what he was doing.

John Jantsch (01:45.902)

Yeah, yeah, we could probably talk the whole show about that very thing. I find that especially with service businesses. What would and you probably encountered that a lot, right? So just telling somebody they should raise their prices. Well, it make sense. It's pretty hard for them to sometimes stomach. How do get people around that resistance that they're normally is?

Stacey Hylen (02:07.779)

Well, it's funny because in the book I call that that fear factor, right? The hidden profit of raising your prices because people not being able to raise prices comes from a lack mentality as opposed to abundance mentality. It also comes from not owning your expertise. And so I think one of the big challenges that, that entrepreneurs need to do is to start to own their expertise and to own the outcome that they help create for their client. And when you.

John Jantsch (02:11.746)

Yeah, right, right.

Stacey Hylen (02:37.315)

focus on what the outcome is that you create for your client, then it's a lot easier to say, okay, this is worth charging more for, be willing to, know, sometimes it's baby steps that we have to do, you know, that we raise the price on one particular product or service or program, and then once they get the little bit of confidence, then we, you know, step it up again and again until we get to the right spot.

John Jantsch (03:00.226)

You know, I also find a lot of that comes from them not really being very specific about who they can help. And so they attract a lot of people that don't get the value, don't appreciate their expertise and, consequently are very price sensitive. Would you, would you say that's also another, like getting people to narrow their focus as part of it too?

Stacey Hylen (03:19.331)

Yeah, it's really important. And I think part of that comes from your language when you speak to in your marketing, you know, and really honing in that strategic positioning so that you become the expert that they want to work with. And I think, you know, I had a client here yesterday for a VIP day. And one of the things that was funny is he was saying words that he wanted, you know, to attract the clients and.

None of the words he mentioned were the words in actual prospect would be searching for or looking for in a transformation. So we had to really look at that. And then we also looked at, know, who are those clients that he didn't want and what were the warning signs? Because I think a lot of times, again, coming from a lack perspective versus an abundance perspective, that they think, it's a lead. have to take this client. But when you have a lot of crappy clients, it sucks your energy. It sucks your time.

And it's not a great way to grow your business. Whereas if you have one of your perfect clients that is fun to work with, is willing to invest, like that's a great way to grow your business.

John Jantsch (04:15.278)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:23.244)

Yeah, it's funny, you know, you're in this game very long at all. You know, you can almost, I can almost talk to a client. The first thing they ask me, you know, well, if we go, you're going to be a good client or not. You know, you get really good at sort of recognizing that perfect client behavior, don't you?

Stacey Hylen (04:39.149)

Yeah. And also it's, it's, it's willing to be pay attention to your gut when you hear that, but you're like, Ooh, that's not going to be a good one. And, being willing to just release them and let them go into the wild.

John Jantsch (04:44.118)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (04:52.022)

You identify something as being a problem that you call profit leaks. You want to talk a little bit about what those are?

Stacey Hylen (04:58.991)

Yeah. So one of the things with the profit leaks is that people are focusing on the wrong thing in their business. They're focusing on the minutia in their business that is not helping them create revenue. Right. And so this could be endlessly tweaking your website. could be, you know, anything that is like so much easier to do than actually do some marketing, go out there, talk to prospects, get in front of, you know, places where your perfect clients are.

John Jantsch (05:13.417)

Right

John Jantsch (05:20.204)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (05:26.883)

So I'm sure you see that in all of your work that people just like hide out. And that's really where a lot of those revenue leaks come because they're not taking the action that they need to take.

John Jantsch (05:36.682)

Well, I can go a lot of directions with that. But I think that that's a real issue. A lot of businesses, mean, a of people know how to do something. They got into a business to do it, but they didn't really get into business to go out there and sell to, you know, actually have conversations with people or convince people as they maybe feel like it is. So how do you get people past that? Because I mean, the whole profit conversation kind of breaks down if I can't go out there and get clients.

Stacey Hylen (06:02.691)

The thing is, that I really help my clients shift from seeing sales as selling to helping them see it as serving. And the reason why is if, if I was to ask you, what's your favorite restaurant, you would, what's your favorite restaurant, John? It's easy to say, right?

John Jantsch (06:18.35)

All right, it's Trace Greengroce in case you're listening in Nederland, Colorado. Okay, go ahead.

Stacey Hylen (06:24.565)

Awesome. Awesome. And so you'd like, that's easy because you think, my gosh, I'm going to help Stacey find a great place to eat while she's in Colorado. But the thing is, is your prospects are also having problems and challenges. And if you are really good at what you do and you're an expert at it, then you should be willing to share what you do because you're helping solve a problem for somebody and you're actually serving them. So I think that's really the first step to shift into that.

that confidence and that's where having a coach really helps is because sometimes they have, my clients have to borrow my confidence, both in selling, marketing, and also raising their prices, right? Because those are all confidence issues.

John Jantsch (06:51.02)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:56.056)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:02.604)

Yeah. And I would extend that to referrals too, because a lot of people, even if they have a good customer, they're like, I'm reluctant to ask, you know, for referrals, but it's the same thing. It's like, if, if you're getting like this amazing result, wouldn't you your friend to get that? So it's kind of the same mentality, isn't it? So I should have asked this at the very beginning of the show. But we ought to set, we ought to talk a little bit about people's relationship with the word profit to begin with. You know, a lot of business owners,

don't really think about profit or heaven forbid some actually look at it as a negative thing. And so consequently, and you probably know Mike McCallewitz, my friend that's been on the show a number of times, wrote Profit First. And you you said that a lot of business owners, all they really want to do is pay the bills and pay themselves a salary and, you know, amounts to being a job rather than building an asset. So do you find that you sometimes have to actually set the

Stacey Hylen (07:44.143)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:59.532)

baseline for what profit is and why it's a good thing?

Stacey Hylen (08:03.279)

Sometimes, it depends on the client, right? But I think a lot of times what happens is, you know, the hidden profits are really revenue boosters that go direct line to bottom line profit. And that's the difference in this book. Right, because that's why this book has hidden profits, because there are things that...

John Jantsch (08:04.737)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:08.088)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.108)

Yeah. Yeah. Raise your prices without raising your costs. Right.

Stacey Hylen (08:23.691)

boost your revenue, but because it doesn't increase your cost, you're not doing more marketing or more expense with the strategies in the book. It all goes to the bottom line profit. So it makes it much easier to boost your profit.

John Jantsch (08:26.958)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:36.398)

So if you were gonna walk into a business, and I know every business is different, but have you found there are a couple things that are like, that's the low hanging fruit. Like here's the first thing we're gonna do.

Stacey Hylen (08:46.051)

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing is, know, what do you have for past clients that are currently not doing business with you? Because those people love you, they trust you, and for the most part, you know, you were saying people are shy to do it or hesitant to do it. People are, other than dentists, are hesitant to get people to come back, right? And so.

John Jantsch (09:10.156)

Yeah,

Stacey Hylen (09:11.247)

We want to do a come on back strategy. And I had a client that I talk about in the book that she was taking one of my live hidden profit programs and it was the slowest month of the year for her. It was December. She was selling weight loss. Nobody wants to lose weight in December. It's like time to eat your grandma's cookies, right? So we did, she, she was an action taker and she said, I'm going to do it even though it's December. And I was like, well, this might not be the best month for this hidden profit, but go for it.

John Jantsch (09:26.486)

Right,

Stacey Hylen (09:39.809)

She increased her sales by over 50 % in one month. She had her best month ever in her business by doing that reactivation strategy. And it's because she actually went back to them, gave them permission to come back. And sometimes that's the shyness there is like, you think the client is shy to come back to you because they might've gone off and tried another weight loss product or tried somebody else to fix their car or cut their hair or whatever it is. And you're saying like, Hey, I'd love to have you back.

John Jantsch (09:53.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:01.932)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (10:09.017)

come on back and that works almost every single time to really boost profits very quickly.

John Jantsch (10:15.148)

You know, it's really interesting too, because I think most businesses feel like, they left because they weren't getting what they wanted here or, but people leave for tons of reasons. Right. And so I think for us to assume that it was all about us is probably what holds a lot of people back.

Stacey Hylen (10:30.625)

Yeah, this one, this one is going to be a rider downer for your listeners and watchers. I have a client, we call this the $700,000 mistake. And he was coming to his coaching call and he canceled last minute. And I said, what happened? And he said, well, I had a hundred thousand dollars sale. No, normally a hundred thousand dollars sale. I would be like, let's do our happy dance. And he said, no, Stacy, this was not a happy dance moment. And I said, well, how can a hundred thousand dollars sale not be a happy dance moment? And he said, this client.

John Jantsch (10:34.904)

Okay, let's hear it.

John Jantsch (10:51.084)

Right, right.

Stacey Hylen (11:00.111)

was a past client that for the last seven years has been going to my competitor. And because he had not said, come on back, he lost $700,000 in sales. So I want your listeners to be thinking about that. Like really, there's some hidden profit right there that if you just go back and talk to these past clients, you can be welcoming them back into your business very easily.

John Jantsch (11:26.412)

Well, I think he should have done the happy dance anyway, you know, take what you can get. Okay. He learned a lesson, but take what you can get.

Stacey Hylen (11:33.769)

He learned a very expensive lesson.

John Jantsch (11:38.424)

So in some cases, people left because something was too expensive, their business had changed or something. mean, so how often do you find that the hidden profits might be in saying, hey, we need to relook at all of our products or all of our offerings and repackage or repositioning. How much of creating new profit is sort of reinvigorating what you've already put out

Stacey Hylen (12:01.711)

Yeah, well, when I, I have a mastermind and we have retreats twice a year and that's really like, I would say like six months because we do the retreats every six months. It kind of gives us a time to like deep dive into the business and look at, okay, what's working, what's changed because you're, you know, the markets change, the economy changes. AI has brought in a lot of stuff, right? Like I, recently become a certified AI consultant. like you can look at like.

John Jantsch (12:22.892)

Right. Right.

Stacey Hylen (12:29.817)

How can you refresh your offers to meet what your clients actually want right now? How can you package them differently? How can you drive them to those offers in a way that gets more clients quickly?

John Jantsch (12:45.048)

So you do talk about the hidden profits framework in the book. Is there a way for you to give the high level, here's the step-by-step process?

Stacey Hylen (12:53.581)

Yeah, so what we're looking at is we're looking at where you're not getting the revenue coming in the door. So we talked about the reactivation, the come on back. So that's lost clients that have already worked with you. Another great spot to look at that's a very quick win for most people is do you want fries with that? Right? The upsell. Now, when we were kids, we went to McDonald's and they said, do you want fries with that? And our parents were like, okay.

And now they sell the happy meal, you know, the combo meal that has everything together with it. And they say, do you want to biggie size it or do you want to supersize it? And so a lot of times people are leaving money on the table right there when people have their wallets out. So when people have their wallets out in your business, that's an opportunity for you to say, okay, you're signing up for this. Would you like this? The VIP level support? Would you like this?

John Jantsch (13:37.646)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (13:47.407)

additional thing that will help them solve their problem, help them reach their goal faster. So those are two hidden profit points that are really quick to add into your business without any additional time, money, or, you know, team members to implement them.

John Jantsch (14:03.31)

Let's say you do have a team. I work with a lot of folks that have, you know, even salespeople in organizations, which, you know, their job is to sell more stuff, right? But what you're talking about, the reactivating customers, looking for ways to sell more to, you know, even account managers, say in marketing firms. I isn't that something that really ought to be, or a business ought to look at that as being everybody's job, is to start adding those things?

Stacey Hylen (14:27.725)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I have a long time client. He's been my client for over 15 years. And so what we look at every year is, okay, who are your best clients? What additional products, services, what additional things can help them solve their problems and help their clients reach their goals faster. And then his team, he has salespeople and he has operations people, they are trained to look for.

across opportunities also in that account. Like what else does this client need? What other divisions does this company have that could use our services? Who else could we meet in this company that could connect us to somebody else in the company that also needs our products or services? So absolutely, that's something that should be constantly looked at and also rewarded, right? In terms of not just a sales team, but if you have an operations team that's dealing with the client on a regular basis, they're a really good person to.

John Jantsch (15:16.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (15:24.089)

hear about the pain, to hear about the goals within the company, how they've changed since the person's talked to the salesperson and bring in some additional revenue through that avenue as well.

John Jantsch (15:31.116)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:35.852)

What about companies that feel like, and I run across them all the time, at least people have this mentality. It's like, I'm in this commodity industry. It's all about price. You know, there's, there's really nothing more we can squeeze out of this. Have you been able to help companies like that, or at least that have that mentality think differently?

Stacey Hylen (15:52.259)

That is absolutely, that is one of my favorite things to do is to help clients go from commodity to Couture. And what that means is, you know, if you are competing on price, right? I had a client in the logistics industry, they are competing on price every single day and they're competing against a hundred million dollar, billion dollar companies that are, you know, they have hundreds of salespeople smiling and dialing all day long, sending cold emails, all of that.

John Jantsch (15:56.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:13.826)

Right.

Stacey Hylen (16:22.325)

And my client was a boutique company. He's gone from six to eight figures since we've been working together because we positioned him as this couture brand of helping him solve a problem for his client and get a better result, not saying, Hey, can we quote you on, on shipping? Can we quote you? And so what we've done is we've positioned him as how can we help you increase the client satisfaction on the back end?

John Jantsch (16:32.557)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (16:48.267)

of the transaction once you make a sale in your company. So logistics becomes a value add versus a cost in the business. that also, when you position yourself in that future manner, it also helps the person making that buying decision be more confident changing providers because they're going towards something, not just like making a minute improvement in something or just cutting costs, which often means you're getting less service, less quality.

John Jantsch (17:08.172)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (17:17.398)

Yeah. Well, and they also aren't going to leave you for the next person that's five cents cheaper, right? Because it's like, no way. Have you had any results that that that you've gotten for somebody that even surprised you?

Stacey Hylen (17:22.723)

Right, absolutely, absolutely.

Stacey Hylen (17:30.847)

gosh. Well, I would say that person doing the weight loss in December was a huge one. the other one, I had a client who had an auto parts store who is, you know, had all employees that were elderly and he was complaining about them when he did his intake form and is saying like, this wasn't working, that wasn't working. And it was really all about team. And I said, my gosh, how am going to help him if none of his team will do anything he said?

John Jantsch (17:35.822)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.555)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (18:00.271)

So I said, we're probably gonna have to clean house. And when we got on the call, he said, well, I'm not willing to let anybody go there. We live in this small town. They're not gonna get any other employment. They're family members, church members. So what we did is we did a one question upsell. That was it. And that increased his sales 48 % in one month. And it was just, he was blown away. I was blown away because he had such a hard, you know,

John Jantsch (18:09.347)

Hehehe.

Stacey Hylen (18:29.039)

hill to climb with his employees to actually do something? Just one question at a 48 % increase.

John Jantsch (18:35.278)

You and that's a great lesson too, because sometimes we try to do all these things, right? At one time, and it just kind of overwhelms everybody. Just having that one thing was easy for people to do. And then they probably, when they started seeing success, they probably got a little jazzed in.

Stacey Hylen (18:50.711)

Yeah, yeah, because it's when you get a yes and people are happy, then you want to have more of that. Right. And also the employees had the employer being really happy too, which created goodwill and helped the company culture as well.

John Jantsch (18:53.419)

you

John Jantsch (19:05.774)

Well, Stacey, I appreciate you taking a moment to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work, and obviously pick up a copy of Hidden Profits?

Stacey Hylen (19:14.807)

Yeah, thanks for asking. This has been great. I can be found at staceyhyland.com and I'm Stacey Hyland everywhere on the internet. And then if you want to get on the early bird list for the book, you go to hiddenprofitbook.com and we're going to have a bunch of resources there. I have some AI stuff that's kind of behind the scenes that I've, you know, plugged in with the hidden profits. So that's going to be great. So go to hiddenprofitbook.com to get that as well.

John Jantsch (19:42.24)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by and hopefully we'll run into you on these days out there on the road.

Stacey Hylen (19:46.932)

Thanks John, have a great day.

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Do This Instead: How to Adapt Your Marketing to the AI-Shaped Buyer Journey

Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI

Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI written by Sara Nay read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Over the past 15 years, I’ve watched marketing evolve in ways we never could’ve imagined. When I started as an intern at Duct Tape Marketing, the name of the game was execution. Do the work. Deliver the thing. Check the box.

Back then, success meant staying busy. Creating deliverables, managing campaigns, launching tactics. And honestly, that model served us well for a while.

But today, things are different. That model is breaking.

AI Has Changed the Game

The rise of AI hasn’t just changed how we work. It’s completely shifted the value we bring as marketers.

Small businesses now have access to tools that can write content, analyze performance, and even build marketing assets in seconds. What used to take a whole team and several days can now be done with a few well-written prompts. The result? Execution has become a commodity.

Doing the work isn’t enough anymore. Simply checking boxes doesn't move the needle the way it used to.

It's Time to Evolve

This is our wake-up call. As marketers, consultants, and agency leaders, we have to stop viewing ourselves as taskmasters. Instead, we need to step into the role of guide and strategist.

Our clients don’t just need help with content calendars and SEO reports. They need someone who can help them make smarter decisions, implement the right tools, and build systems that actually scale.

Start With Strategy

Every successful marketing system I’ve helped build starts in the same place: strategy.

We use a simple but powerful three-tiered approach I call the Strategy Pyramid:

• Business Strategy: What are your goals? Where are you headed?
• Marketing Strategy: Who are you trying to reach? What are you offering, and how are you positioning it?
• Team Strategy: Who is responsible for what? What tools and systems will support this plan?

Too many businesses skip this part. They dive straight into tactics like running ads, setting up email automations, and posting on social. But without clear strategic direction, those tactics rarely lead to the results they want.

AI doesn’t fix that problem. In fact, it makes it worse. When you automate without clarity, you’re just moving faster in the wrong direction.

Why Simple Wins

One of the biggest changes I’ve embraced in recent years is simplifying the marketing process.

Forget those bloated 12-month marketing plans. Instead, we work in 30 to 45-day sprints. It’s long enough to make progress, short enough to pivot if needed. It keeps teams focused, aligned, and moving with intention.

And when it comes to AI, simplicity matters even more. You don’t need to jump into every new tool that hits the market. Start with one. Get a quick win. Let your team see the impact. Then grow from there.

That’s how you build momentum. Not through complexity, but through clarity and consistency.

AI is Only as Good as Your Strategy

Yes, AI is powerful. Tools like ChatGPT have changed the way we think about creativity, speed, and productivity. But tools are just that — tools. They only work well if you have a solid foundation underneath them.

That’s why I’m so excited about platforms like Ella from Atomic Elevator. Ella is a marketing operating system that helps businesses build strategic marketing systems while staying true to their brand voice. It removes the need for fancy prompt engineering and brings structure to how content and strategy come together.

This kind of innovation gives small businesses the ability to compete with larger brands and gives agencies a smarter way to scale without burning out.

Your Team Isn’t Being Replaced. They’re Being Reimagined.

Here’s the truth: AI is not here to replace your team. It’s here to elevate them.

But in order to do that, we have to change how we think about marketing roles. It’s not just about executing tasks anymore. It’s about bringing empathy, creativity, and strategic thinking to the table. Those are the skills that will set marketers apart.

When I talk to business owners, the most common question I hear is, “Where do I even start with AI?”

My answer is always the same: Start small. Start smart. You don’t need a full AI tech stack overnight. Choose one tool. Build one system around it. Measure the outcome. Then expand from there.

That’s how you go from overwhelmed to empowered.

Are You Ready to Lead?

The truth is, traditional marketing isn’t dead. But it is evolving. And if you want to keep up, it’s time to shift.

If you’re ready to stop chasing tactics and start leading with strategy...
If you want to embrace AI without losing your voice or your vision...
If you’re looking to build systems that grow with you, not ones that burn you out...

Then let’s talk.

And check out my episode with Ellie McIntyre on the Conversion Zoo Podcast for more insights on where marketing is headed next.

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The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker

The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Chris Ducker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur. Chris shares lessons from his new book, “The Long-Haul Leader: How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business,” and explains why sustainable success requires patience, consistency, self-care, and transparency. The conversation covers the power of personal “operating systems,” the value of creative hobbies, the importance of prioritizing recovery, and how vulnerability and leading out loud foster loyalty and real connection in business and life.

About the Guest

Chris Ducker is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur, a global personal brand business education company. Recognized for his candid, actionable advice on entrepreneurship and personal brand leadership, Chris has helped countless business owners scale and lead for the long haul. His books, “Rise of the Youpreneur” and “The Long-Haul Leader,” offer roadmaps for building sustainable businesses—and lives—rooted in clarity, community, and authenticity.

• Website: chrisducker.com
• Book: longhaulleader.com

Actionable Insights

• Short-term wins are loud, but true impact “whispers until it starts roaring”—sustainable success is built on patience, consistency, and showing up for the long haul.
• “Hustle” is a season, not a lifestyle. Lasting growth comes from intentional focus, recovery, and doing unflashy work behind the scenes.
• The Long-Haul Leader framework is built on four pillars: personal mastery, hobbies/pastimes, love/relationships, and impactful work—with balance and alignment at the core.
• Creative hobbies and prioritizing recovery boost productivity and satisfaction—entrepreneurs with hobbies are more successful at work.
• Measuring progress in these areas means tracking not just KPIs, but also personal growth, creative time, and meaningful relationships.
• Transparency and “leading out loud” build trust—sharing both wins and struggles creates stronger teams and connections.
• Reinvention is essential. Burnout and setbacks are part of the journey; prioritizing health, joy, and the right people is key to bouncing back.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:22 – The Dangers of Short-Termism and the Power of the Long Game
  Chris explains how patience and consistency outlast hustle culture for real business impact.
• 05:02 – Focus Over Followers
  Why clarity, intention, and saying “no” matter more than chasing every shiny object or platform.
• 07:28 – The Operating System for Long-Haul Leadership
  Chris introduces his four-part framework: personal mastery, hobbies, relationships, and impactful work.
• 11:39 – Hobbies and Recovery Aren’t Optional
  Research (and Chris’s own experience) show creative hobbies and recovery time dramatically improve performance.
• 16:38 – The Power of Analog and Using Your Hands
  How woodworking, painting, and hands-on hobbies can boost mental clarity and satisfaction.
• 17:06 – Burnout and Reinvention
  Chris shares his own story of hitting rock bottom, recovering, and reshaping his business and life.
• 20:07 – Leading Out Loud: The Value of Vulnerability
  Why openness, transparency, and sharing the journey matter for modern leadership.
• 22:36 – Writing the Book as Memoir, Roadmap, and Call to Action
  Chris describes how personal stories and practical frameworks combine to help others lead for the long haul.

Pulled Quotes

“Short-term wins are loud. Long-term impact whispers—until it starts roaring.”
— Chris Ducker

“Hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Prioritizing recovery and the right people is the secret to lasting success.”
— Chris Ducker

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.898)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Ducker. He's a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and founder of Youpnur, a global personal brand business education company. He's recognized for his candid actionable advice on entrepreneurship, business growth and personal brand leadership. He's been on this show before with a couple of his other books, For Sure Rise of the Youpnur, I think.

shaped countless business owners to scale and lead. And we're going to talk about his latest book, The Long-Haul Leader, How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business. So Chris, welcome to the show.

@ChrisDucker (00:39.814)

Yeah, thanks for having me back, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:41.666)

So serial entrepreneur, know, my mind goes to like Frosted Flakes or something, is there a favorite serial in the UK that we don't have over here maybe?

@ChrisDucker (00:53.01)

Boy, I don't know. That's a really good question to kick off the chat. I'm pretty sure that we've got everything you've got and you've probably got about another gazillion other serials that we don't have, I would think.

John Jantsch (01:06.359)

You've certainly got something dry and drier and tastelesser.

@ChrisDucker (01:11.784)

I was going say we generally don't do cereal in our house. I think the last time I had a bowl of cereal, was probably something bland and boring like cornflakes or something like that.

John Jantsch (01:22.094)

Okay. All right. So in the book, you take on something you call short-termism, which I guess is obviously the opposite of the long haul. Was there a time in your business? mean, a lot of authors are really just writing like from the insights they've had over, you know, growing their own businesses. When did you realize the long game? Was it, did you have to be in the long game to realize the long game's value?

@ChrisDucker (01:39.335)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (01:50.024)

That's a question. I think that I probably felt it initially, probably maybe 10 years or so ago when we opened up the doors to Uprenur. At that point, I'd already had two other businesses that were both doing very, very well indeed. Funnily enough, both those businesses we've now exited and sold over recent years. So the only business that we run now day to day is Uprenur.

And we've niched that down now to serve business authors and help them not only write and market their books and launch their books, but also to build businesses around their books and the frameworks that live within them. And that's going really, really well right now as well. So I believe that when we opened up the doors to Upino, there was a lot of kind of membership sites out there teaching you how to market and your business and grow your business, become a creator and all that kind of stuff. But for me,

John Jantsch (02:29.976)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (02:48.584)

I remember saying, this is going to be probably like the next 10, 15 years of my life, I think. Like I felt really quite positive and confident on that fact. And the the real reason here is that the other factor here is I think that ultimately, particularly as an entrepreneur, like we're kind of conditioned to go after those quick wins, right? Those fast wins, those shiny object wins, as I call them, but

John Jantsch (03:09.432)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (03:13.85)

If you think about how short-term wins are quite loud, you go for something, you grab them, you celebrate it in a loud way, the way I look at long-term impact is really it whispers and whispers and whispers until it starts roaring. I'm all about the roar at this point. The real game should be patience and consistency and showing up even when it's not sexy, doing the un...

the unflashy work behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I think there's certainly something to be said for hustle, right? And hustle culture. There's nothing wrong with a little hustle every now and then. And you will hustle anyway, just naturally by being a business owner, a deadline, a project that you want to get out the door by a certain date or something along those lines. But generally speaking, it's not sustainable to be in that hustle mindset for too long. In fact, hustle, if you think about it, is a season.

It's not a lifestyle. I talk about that in the book, obviously.

John Jantsch (04:10.254)

Yeah. But help me a little bit. mean, I get this. I've been doing this 30 years, you know, so I get, you know, what happens is you, you develop muscles and you develop memory and that helps you with the long game. Like every year in our business, February is a terrible month. And it must have something to do with, you know, the cycle of, of, know, what people do in business. You know, it's like everybody wants to close the year and, you know, big time. And then there's like kind of this exhale.

And so younger members of my team are like, leads are way down, know, business is way down. What are we going to do? And I'm like, it's always this way. You know, just, just wait for March. It'll be fine. You know, but, that until you've been through it 10 times, you know, it's hard to have that mindset. So how does a, how does a younger entrepreneur in this case, develop that long-term mindset without kind of the, benefit of, you hindsight.

@ChrisDucker (04:45.869)

Yeah. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:02.982)

Yeah, I think, you know, particularly the younger generation, my daughter, Chloe, as I know your daughter's with your company, Chloe's been with us now for six years. She's our COO at Upanose. She's amazing, but she's also quite kind of KPI and kind of target focused and she wants to kind of chase down the next goal quite a bit. And I, you know, I always say that first and foremost, leadership in general, leading the game in whatever niche you're in is not about being

John Jantsch (05:17.474)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:32.11)

everywhere. Genuinely, it's not. It's about being where it really matters. So you don't have to worry about being on every platform, chasing down every goal, every verification badge that you can get and all that kind of stuff. It's about choosing your presence with intention and working from a place of non-insecurity or no insecurity. The other thing is that

John Jantsch (05:33.409)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (05:59.654)

I kind of like the idea. Like I've been saying this a lot recently, particularly to younger people. My son is 16 now and he's, he's a big music fan and he's kind of creating his own music and he's putting it up on Spotify and YouTube and all these kinds of places. And he gets like really, that I just hit 200 subscribers and you know, it just hit a thousand streams and all this kind of stuff. And I keep saying, look, you don't need more followers. You don't need more followers. You just need more focus, right? You've got to like focus on the clarity.

Don't worry about constant content out, know, da, da, da, da, da, know, every available opportunity, like build that focus, knock out something really good on a weekly or a monthly basis. And the momentum will follow plain and simple. And so I think overall, the question is, yes, I can respect people want quick wins and they want to chase down those, those goals, but ultimately any kind of suggest or rather any kind of success that kind of, or suggest that you're, you know,

have bad health because of it or family or start doing it from a place of non-committal joy. That's pure sacrifice right there. That's not success. I want my kids to be successful just like I want all my clients to be successful as well.

John Jantsch (07:13.518)

Well, before we get too much further in the show, the book is built, I mean, as all good books, you give people a, it's not just a concept, here's a framework. Here's actually the steps to do it. So you want to kind of as high level as you want to go unpack what the steps are in the framework.

@ChrisDucker (07:22.482)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (07:28.456)

Yeah. So when I first started writing the book, so this all came about out of 2021, we were in the middle of pandemic. I had a burnout, a pretty bad burnout. I was actually diagnosed with anxiety, depression, which I didn't see coming at all. And I had phase three adrenal failure, which basically meant that my adrenal glands, which are two little glands that sit on top of your kidneys, they create cortisol, which is your stress hormone, right?

They flatlined, they weren't creating any cortisol, so I couldn't handle stress. And the more stress it got, the worse it got and so on and so on. So I had to take a period of time off and kind of recoup and relook at things. And I noticed when I was writing notes down, and I was doing this mostly for me at this point, not for the book, but whenever I was writing notes down or listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever it was, talking to somebody, I noticed that the...

The notes I was taking, the things I was taking away from these discussions kept landing in four very, very distinct buckets. And they were hobbies and pastimes, which was a big one out of left field. It didn't see that coming at all. It was love and relationships. It was personal mastery, so upgrading yourself, et cetera. And then the work that you do, right? And so I sat down and I kind of...

worked through this and looked at how we could put this into a framework when we actually started planning the book. And that's what we did. We basically put it into this four step, if you imagine a bit of a Venn diagram, it's the only image in the entire book. There's one image in the whole book and this is it. And we've called it the long haul leader life OS or operating system. Because my mindset was, well, if our phones have got an OS, our computers have got an OS, why can't we have an OS as well?

And so if you imagine where personal mastery and hobbies and pastimes kind of overlap, the time that we spend doing those things represents the balance that we have between our self-improvement and obviously the activities that we enjoy doing. Where hobbies and relationships and love clash, memories, right, the actual memories that we create, they reflect those meaningful

John Jantsch (09:26.488)

Mm.

@ChrisDucker (09:42.212)

experiences that we create, right, while we're pursuing these passions and nurturing these relationships and whatnot. And then going further, where love and relationships and the work that we do, or impactful work, as I talk about it in the book, where those actually overlap, then what we're talking about here is like, showing how meaningful work ultimately enables personal freedom, but also strengthens the relationships both at work and away from work as well. And then finally,

the personal mastery side of things and how that clashes and overlaps with the work that we do. This kind of like excites me a lot is it all comes down to the clients and they reflect the value and the influence that we generate from the people that we work with and how we apply our own expertise into our work. it's a business book. And it's interesting with my publisher, we have a pretty long drawn out discussion over like, how do we position this? Is it a leadership book? Is it a self-help book?

John Jantsch (10:36.536)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (10:40.186)

Is it personal development? it business? We ended up sticking it into a leadership category, but ultimately it's a little bit of all of those things. And I'm kind of joking a little bit when I talk to friends about it, saying when it's kind of part memoir, part roadmap, and that's kind of where we're going.

John Jantsch (10:56.142)

Well, I've always said that I think entrepreneurship is probably the ultimate personal development. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I think you could rightly call personal development or self-help even because I mean, regardless if you're running a business, mean, almost everybody has those four areas at some level in their life, even if they're working for a company.

@ChrisDucker (11:04.04)

it totally is. If you want to do it right.

@ChrisDucker (11:21.01)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:24.758)

All good frameworks come with a way to measure. Are we making progress? Are we setting the right priorities? How do you suggest, especially when you start getting into things like hobbies, as you've mentioned, mean, how do you measure like, I doing it right?

@ChrisDucker (11:39.27)

Yeah, the hobbies thing, like I said, came out of left field. I didn't see this one coming. I, through the research that we did through the book, the people that were interviewed for the book and things like that, it was pretty apparent to me that those entrepreneurs, very specifically entrepreneurs, as well as C-suite executives and things like that, but mostly entrepreneurs that we talked to, those that had hobbies were a heck of a lot productive and more successful in their work compared to people that did not have hobbies.

John Jantsch (11:42.445)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:46.072)

me

John Jantsch (12:00.056)

Thanks.

@ChrisDucker (12:09.16)

I started looking into this even further and I found that creative hobbies, very specifically things like painting or anything to do with music and that kind of stuff. I'm a watercolour, nature watercolour. Yeah. And I also do bonsai as well, which is quite creative as well. Got to keep the things alive first and foremost. So the horticulture side of things comes in the play first. But yeah, so what we found with the creative hobbies was really interesting. So

John Jantsch (12:10.958)

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:16.426)

Mm-hmm. And I think you do painting, don't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:29.069)

Yeah.

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (12:39.036)

I went down a rabbit hole and I started looking at like, there any famous people that are like in corporate America, corporate world who have got like creative hobbies? There's one guy we found, David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. David Solomon is also known as DJ D Sol. And he is one of the most sought after dance DJs in America. Everything he makes, he gives to charity because he doesn't need the money, obviously.

John Jantsch (12:45.26)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:00.608)

funny.

@ChrisDucker (13:08.232)

But when you look at the statistic, and this came out of a Forbes survey, I believe, that if you engage in a creative hobby as an entrepreneur or a high level executive for a minimum of two hours a week, on average, you're looking at about a 30 % boost on your performance at work, which is pretty telling. So the overall arching message here is go get a hobby and make it a creative one, ultimately.

John Jantsch (13:29.154)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:35.618)

I mean, did the research suggest why that is though? I mean, what does it rewire your brain? Is it like give you something else to think about? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

@ChrisDucker (13:39.24)

I think it comes down to prioritizing recovery fundamentally. It's prioritizing recovery. And that is what I've personally seen as well in me stepping away from work more often. The work that I do now, Monday, because I don't work Fridays, I haven't worked Fridays for many, years. Monday to Friday, I work 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

So it's not a lot of time quote unquote in the office, but I am more productive than I ever have been. And I go out on nature walks almost every day. I'm very blessed to live in the countryside here in England. So I'm out and about on nature and everything pretty regularly become a little bit of a birdwatcher. Actually, I'm the guy walking around with a big lens now in the morning, just in case something cool pops out of a bush somewhere. But on a very serious note, have noticed unreservedly noticed that

John Jantsch (14:21.048)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (14:32.912)

I feel more confident in the work that I'm doing. I get more done. I'm hitting my KPIs. My to-do lists disappear almost on a daily, if not definitely a weekly basis. And my team started the follow suit as well. So we're now a no work Friday company. And everybody loves that, obviously, a four day work week. And there is just something about prioritizing your recovery that allows you to become better at what you do at work.

John Jantsch (14:58.03)

I wonder sometimes too, if people like us that have their hands on a keyboard a lot of days and we're staring into virtual cameras. I wonder if there's also something, if we want to go down another rabbit hole to doing a hobby that uses your hands, that is analog, that really gets you away from a computer screen completely. I actually enjoy woodworking. I build furniture and things. I always say that all the time. I mean, there's something.

about holding this thing that used to be alive, you know, this tree that used to be alive. And I think there is something physical as well as mental about that.

@ChrisDucker (15:37.224)

I went to a conference, fair. was the Global Bird Fair just last weekend. I'll show you something on camera here. So if you're listening on audio, sorry, you're going to miss this. But I bought this. This is a little nut hatch. Yeah. And I paid, think probably the equivalent of about $90 US for it. But I didn't necessarily buy it because I wanted this to sit on my desk, although it does look pretty cool.

John Jantsch (15:49.513)

yeah, yeah, a little carved nut touch, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:06.128)

I bought it because after talking with the sculptor for 30 minutes, I was invested in the journey. I was invested in what he was all about. This guy was retired, mid seventies, does about five hours a day in his workshop, pretty much seven days a week. Loves what he does and travels the country selling his woodwork and making a little money after retirement. But it was the joy.

John Jantsch (16:13.037)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:23.042)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:32.196)

in his face and his words when he spoke about doing what he did and what he loved. And there's something to be said for that, you know?

John Jantsch (16:32.227)

haha

John Jantsch (16:38.798)

Yeah, 100%. Well, we could do a whole nother show on this. We better get back to another topic in the book that you cover a lot. And again, you use yourself, I think of stories of reinvention. there a particularly painful, people love painful stories, or is there a particularly painful one or maybe something that you got through because of maybe taking this long haul approach?

@ChrisDucker (16:43.549)

Ha

@ChrisDucker (17:06.408)

Well, I mean, it's the burnout of 2021. know, that was, it was interesting because that year we had a phenomenal year business-wise. We made a whole bunch of money. We served probably well over 300 people within our UPINR programs, maybe even a little more actually. It was just a great year and all the work I was doing, like genuinely John, like I was loving it. Loving the work.

John Jantsch (17:08.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (17:32.636)

love the people we're working with, love doing the track, you know, everything that we were doing to kind of like, you know, turn up and train people and all the rest of it. was just a great year, but little did I know deep down, I was just wearing myself out further and further and further and further. And when you hit a rock bottom, like, like if you'd have asked me five, like seven, eight years ago, do you ever think you'll be treated like clinically with drugs for depression, Chris? I would have called you mad, mad. Yeah. There I was.

John Jantsch (17:35.534)

you

John Jantsch (17:56.407)

Mmm, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:01.786)

on antidepressants for 18 months to bounce back from it. So it was very much a fish out of water situation for me. I didn't really feel it coming all that much. And when it hit me, it hit me really, really, really hard. And I did what most kind of quite addictive personality type people do. And I kind of went all in on it. And I, you know, I went down, I went down the nutrition route, the

the whole kind of biohacking route. did a whole bunch of blood work. I started wearing a wearable to track everything from sleep and recovery and the heart rate and all the rest of it. know, red light therapy, cold plunges, saunas, PT sessions every other day, all that stuff. Because I'm like, I need to get better. Like I can't, you know, yes, I can afford to take six months off, but my business can't allow me to take six months off like this.

John Jantsch (18:31.97)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:49.933)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:57.84)

And so it was really, really, really tough. But the things that I talk about in the book are real. Double downing on things like recovering and enjoying hobbies more, spending more time with the people that you love and you respect and want to be around a lot more, focusing on learning new things as well and understanding that in order to lead, you have to continue to learn. You have to. And then really just like the...

focus of working with the right people. That was the big change that I made coming back out from it was that I was done working with the wrong type of people. When I started looking at things a lot more granularly, I realized, that guy's a pain in the butt to deal with. This group I don't want to work with anymore and so on so on and so on. And we fired a whole bunch of clients, hired a whole bunch of new ones and rejigged a whole bunch of different stuff that we were doing program-wise, messaging-wise.

John Jantsch (19:54.307)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (19:54.812)

marketing language wise, everything. So that was the big, you know, the kind of the big painful story that now I'm happy to say is, you know, we're in a much better spot than we've ever been.

John Jantsch (20:07.374)

So one of the things that I think this long haul approach is, and you talk about it in the book, it takes a lot of transparency. people realize that you're in the long haul if you're, I think you even call it leading out loud. You share the good things, you share the bad things, you share where we're going, get everybody on the same page. How, especially for a leader, that that might feel like, wait, we don't do that, do we?

We don't share the books. don't, you know, I mean, how do you get somebody to realize the value in doing that?

@ChrisDucker (20:34.279)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (20:40.882)

Here's the thing, I didn't do it either. I didn't do it. Now, I didn't do it mostly because I'm a stupid man and we have idiot brains, you know, most of us, but I mean, I think some of it was down to pride. You know, I'm the patriarch of my family, what, four children and an amazing family and they look up to me for pretty much everything. And I love that most days, right? And...

think part of it was that. The other part very clearly was business because people were coming to me to know how to build their business with balance and their business with profitability and purpose built in. And here I am burning out like there's something broken here and I can't let them know that I'm going through this. So I had to kind of almost power through it in a way. And actually it was last year when we were hanging out in Nashville.

John Jantsch (21:33.144)

Yep. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (21:39.11)

with each other. was sitting down when our time together had finished and myself and my buddy Pat Flynn were hanging out. he and our families are very, very close families. We spent a lot of time with each other. And I hadn't even told him. And we're talking three years after the fact, after I was diagnosed and put on meds and all the rest of it. And when I was telling him about it, finally face to face properly that we hadn't seen each other since the pandemic, he started tearing up and he was just like,

John Jantsch (21:53.806)

Hmm. Hmm.

@ChrisDucker (22:08.448)

believe you went through all this without telling me. Like it's awesome that you're on the other side of it, but like, bro, you should have told me kind of thing. know, like this is messed up. We're supposed to be friends. So I kept it in, John, kept it all in for those two main reasons. And I've hated myself for it. And when I started writing the book, really got into it at around the beginning of last year, it wrapped up. We wrapped the editing up in around September last year.

John Jantsch (22:10.638)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:20.876)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (22:36.444)

But when I really got into the writing, was like, I can go two ways here. I can continue to kind of put a bit of a cloak and smoke and mirror style here in place and kind of just skate around the edges. Or I can really open the kimono up and just, you know, just, just, just be super vulnerable and, and just give it all, just put it all out there. And which is, that's what I decided to do.

And the folks that I've spoken to about the book, are half a dozen or so folks that had like an advanced PDF version a few months back before we finalized everything. They were like, man, this is like, the fact that you're doing this is huge because people in our industry just don't do this. This has the opportunity of genuinely, like, hopefully changing some lives, like for real, not just business lives, but like lives, lives. And so I'm glad I made the decision to be a little bit more open about it all.

John Jantsch (23:30.222)

Well, awesome. Chris, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Anywhere you want to invite people to learn more about you, your work, obviously the long haul leader.

@ChrisDucker (23:38.728)

Yeah, I mean, if anybody does want to read the book, they can preorder it at longhaulleader.com. The official publication date is September 2. And if they preorder before that date, just send us a copy of your receipt. We'll give you a load of bonuses. All the info is on that page. And if they want to connect on me, just chrisducker.com. Nice and easy.

John Jantsch (23:57.198)

Again, appreciate you dropping by and I look forward to seeing you in Nashville soon.

@ChrisDucker (24:03.91)

Yeah, right back at you, my friend.

John Jantsch (24:05.688)

Take care.

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