Why Inner Excellence Creates Outer Success

Why Inner Excellence Creates Outer Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Jim Murphy, high-performance coach, speaker, and creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. Jim has coached world-class athletes, Olympians, and business leaders, helping them master the inner game that leads to breakthrough results. He shares the story behind his book’s viral moment with NFL star AJ Brown, the practical spiritual approach to peak performance, and why detaching from outcomes is the secret to true excellence—on the field, in business, and in life.

About the Guest

Jim Murphy is a high-performance coach, author, and creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. With a background as a professional athlete and decades of experience coaching Olympians, pro athletes, and top business leaders, Jim’s work blends science, spirituality, and practical tools for living—and performing—at your best. His book, “Inner Excellence: Train Your Mind for Extraordinary Performance and the Best Possible Life,” has sold over half a million copies and is available in more than 25 languages.

• Website: interexcellence.com
• Book: https://geni.us/innerexcellence
• Retreats & Newsletter: VIP Newsletter Signup
• Instagram: @interexcellence

Actionable Insights

• Viral validation: Wide receiver AJ Brown’s sideline reading of “Inner Excellence” sparked global interest, taking the book from niche to worldwide bestseller.
• Lasting results come from mastering your inner game—moving beyond tactics to focus on mindset, heart, and presence.
• Detach from outcomes: The best performers focus on the process and personal growth, not just external results or wins.
• Redefine success: Go beyond achievements and ask, “Who do I want to become? What do I truly value? How do I want to live?”
• Freedom to fail is essential for high performance—joy, excitement, and learning are key to resilience and breakthrough.
• Inner Excellence applies equally to athletes, business leaders, and entrepreneurs: the inner game is universal.
• Daily practices for entrepreneurs and marketers: Learn and grow every day, give the best you have, be present and grateful, focus only on what you can control.
• Embracing vulnerability and humility (accurate self-view, not over or under-inflated ego) leads to greater confidence, peace, and fearlessness.
• Lasting change happens when you strip away “doing” and shift toward “being”—starting with speaking the truth and expanding beliefs about what’s possible.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:30 – AJ Brown’s Sideline Reading Goes Viral
  How an NFL star’s ritual turned “Inner Excellence” into a bestseller overnight.
• 04:37 – From Minor League Struggles to Mindset Breakthrough
  Jim’s journey from pro baseball disappointment to coaching and creating his method.
• 06:41 – Letting Go of Outcome Control
  A Ryder Cup client story and the power of trading “small lollipops” for a bigger vision of success.
• 09:11 – Fear of Failure and Redefining Success
  Why baseball teaches resilience and how to focus on what truly matters.
• 10:49 – The Inner Game for Athletes and Executives
  How mindset mastery is the same for business leaders as for pro athletes.
• 12:08 – Daily Practices for Entrepreneurs and Marketers
  The four goals: Learn and grow, give your best, be present and grateful, focus on what you control.
• 14:21 – Vulnerability, Humility, and Embracing Failure
  How accurate self-view and “letting go” drive real breakthroughs.
• 17:25 – Shifting from Doing to Being
  Why speaking the truth and expanding your beliefs unlocks new levels of possibility.
• 18:46 – How Viral Success Changed (and Validated) the Work
  Jim reflects on confidence, humility, and seeing himself as a messenger, not the “originator.”

Insights

“Detach from outcomes. Go for the whole candy store: fullness of life, not just small tangible wins.”

“Redefine success. Ask who you want to become, what you value, and how you want to live—not just what you want to achieve.”

“Freedom to fail and the joy of learning are essential for high performance—whether on the field or in business.”

“Humility is an accurate view of self—neither overinflated nor underinflated. Let go of ego, and you can be fearless.”

“The most important change is shifting from doing to being—stripping away what isn’t true and expanding what you believe is possible.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.773)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jim Murphy. He's a high performance coach, author, speaker, and the creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. He's coached world-class athletes, Olympians, and business leaders, helping them achieve breakthrough results by mastering their inner game. His own journey from minor league baseball player to elite coach led him to develop a practical spiritual approach to peak performance.

that goes beyond tactics and into mindset, heart, and presence. We're going to talk about his book, Interpresence, or I'm sorry, Interexcellence, Train Your Mind for Extraordinary Performance and the Best Possible Life. So Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim (00:44.194)

Thanks, John.

John Jantsch (00:45.851)

Few years ago, I had Captain Sullivan on the show. You may recall he is the airline pilot that landed his airplane after taking off in New York City in the Hudson River. Do you remember that a few? Sully, right. And then I turned it into a movie. Of course he had a book. So I had to start that show, you know, as he said, well, I have, you know, I have to tell that story, you know, every time I now am asked to talk about, you know, how that went. So he certainly had the story down. Not nearly as dramatic, but.

Jim (00:57.336)

So weak.

John Jantsch (01:15.451)

You have a bit of an AJ Brown story. want to, I'm sure people are asking you and I'm sure you love telling it. You're probably getting tired of telling it, but you want to tell us kind of your kind of moment happened. Gosh, what was that now? Eight, nine months ago.

Jim (01:30.254)

Yeah, John, I'm very grateful to tell it. So on January 12th, uh, AJ Brown was a, he's a wide receiver for the Philadelphia Eagles. It's a wild card game Packers versus the Eagles. Um, Sunday night football, the only NFL game on and, um, in middle of the game, he's reading the football reading, reading inter excellence on the sidelines during the football game. And so the TV station zooms in on it's like, what is AJ Brown doing? And then, oh my gosh, he was reading a book and Kevin Brown and

John Jantsch (01:37.051)

me.

John Jantsch (01:57.435)

you

Jim (01:59.81)

Tom Burkhart made a big deal about it afterwards. They asked him, what were you doing? Were you bored? Were you? He said, no, it's a book that I read before I bring to every game. Read it before the game to get centered and read it after every drive to get re centered. My teammates call it the recipe. And so that was the first time I actually heard about him doing this. I saw a picture of him on social media of like a month earlier, but I had no context. didn't know anything about it. And so I found out what the rest of the world.

that he was doing this at that time. And just an amazing thing for him to do to be true to himself, that find something that helps him be better at what he does and to be more fearless and show all of us that we all have time to read.

John Jantsch (02:40.687)

Well, and then of course the punchline, I suppose, what happened to you next?

Jim (02:48.424)

a few things, john, a few things. Yeah, my world changed a lot. The you know, the message that selfless is fearless, as you know, spread around the world now, love, wisdom and courage. And so the book had sold maybe seven or eight or 9000 copies in nine years. mean, sorry, 16 years, initially was was published in 2009 by McGraw Hill. And then I

John Jantsch (02:49.563)

Hehehehehe

Jim (03:18.329)

put out a revised edition self-published in 2018 or 2020. And then so that's the book AJ Brown has been reading. And since then, it's sold, I don't know, close to half a million copies, I would say.

John Jantsch (03:32.123)

So, I'm curious, how did you print the books without that sort of immediate demand?

Jim (03:42.21)

Yeah, so it's amazing how the world is now with Amazon and they print on demand. so if

John Jantsch (03:44.645)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:48.527)

Yeah, but they were able to print on that kind of demand. Yeah, yeah.

Jim (03:52.27)

Well, apparently they did run out at some point. So they've got print centers all over the world. And so there was a time when the demand was so high, it's sold tens of thousands of copies every day for the first few weeks that they did run out at one point.

John Jantsch (04:09.435)

Yeah, that's a crazy story. Well, good for you. know, frankly, I love to hear stories like that. Persons out there doing their work and you know, as a magical moment happened, I think we all deserve it. You start the book talking about your own struggles as a minor league player, the mindset, you know, performance anxiety, self doubt. Would you say that that was instrumental to you developing kind of your own framework?

Jim (04:37.78)

yeah, yeah, absolutely. My whole life since I was a little kid, I obsessed about being a superstar. I was going to play in the NFL like A.J. Brown or I was going to be in the NBA or Major League Baseball. And so when I got drafted by the Cubs, it was a dream come true. But I had a vision problem that was with me for my entire professional career. I played five years in the minors and then eventually had to retire because of it. And my identity was completely wrapped up in my role as a pro athlete. And when I lost it, I felt like I lost everything. And so

I got a job with him. asked got out asked to coach a high school baseball team in inner city Seattle and I had no interest in coaching but I took the job was driving a truck for FedEx and we went undefeated and I realized wow I love coaching. Who knew? And then so I went on this journey to become a pro baseball coach. I got went to grad school got a job with the Texas Rangers two weeks after graduation. So now I felt like I was somebody again and then I quit six months into the first season and so.

devastated again my identity, you know, I was somebody and I lost it and then somebody again I lost it and so I kind of got tired of this merry-go-round of feeling like I was someone and no one and end up leaving for the desert to go live a life of solitude to figure out what to do with my life and that's where Interactionless was born. I spent five years full-time writing and researching how to have peace and confidence under the most pressure and what I found John was that that The path to having the most peace and confidence under the most pressure is the same path of building an extraordinary life

when filled with deep contentment, joy and confidence, independent of circumstance. It's a wholehearted path where you understand what the human heart deeply needs and wants and how to get it.

John Jantsch (06:15.611)

So you started touching on this idea of your identity and you spend a lot of time or one of the core principles really is kind of this idea of letting go of the need to control the outcome, which is, you know, being very attached to the outcome. Can you, do you have a client story, executive athlete, I suppose you don't want to name names, but where, you you help somebody kind of overcome that control of the outcome.

Jim (06:41.582)

Yeah, I'll tell you. When I was at the Ryder Cup years ago, it's one of the biggest events in golf pro golf. You have the team USA versus Team Europe. And one of the players top 10 in the world said Jim, I'm too attached to the results of my my performance. You know, I get too tense. What can I do? And I said, Well, imagine there's a little kid who loves lollipops, and he's got a lollipop and you want to take it from him, but you don't want to struggle. Is there any way you could get him to give you the lollipop?

by volunteering it to give it to you. And he said, you know, I don't know. And I said, well, what if you had a bigger lollipop and asked him to trade? And he said, he'd probably trade. What kid wouldn't trade a small lollipop for a bigger one? I said, that's what you need. Your lollipop is too small. Your lollipop is, I just want to get birdies and I want to win the tournament. And I, you know, I want to be successful. I want to get some tangible results. That's way too small. First of all, you don't even know if that's good for you to get birdies and

Good results and have more success. Is that going to be good for you in the long run and your family? You don't know what you need is to pursue fullness of life and develop yourself in that way, which we know is good for you where you feel fully alive and make that your your Pursuit go for the whole candy store. Don't settle for these little these 10 these tangible things that you don't even know if will make you happy let alone fulfilled

John Jantsch (08:06.651)

You talk a lot about fear. You identify a number of them. Um, one of them of which is true. don't care what you're doing. Fear of failure shows up in a lot of people's lives when they pursue anything. Um, I'm curious. I'm a huge baseball fan. That's, that's my sport. Um, and you know, it's very cliche to say, but I'll say it anyway. You know, the best baseball players fail 70 % of the time, right? In the, in the, uh, hitting world. Um,

So, so how does, I mean, how do they get through that and you know, that, that idea of I'm, afraid to fail, but you know, and, what's weird about it is 20 hits in a season might make the difference between being seen as a failure or being seen as, as a superstar. So, you know, how do you, how do you, how do, how did you, or how do you see baseball players in particular? This would apply to all athletes, I suppose, but I just.

I feel like baseball has more failure in it than any other sport. So, you know, how do, how do you, they deal with that?

Jim (09:11.534)

You got to redefine success to something that's meaningful to you and then break it down into smaller components Specifically, how do I want to feel in my life? How do I want to live? Who do I want to become? Who am I meant to become? And What is my purpose? What do I value most if you're not clear on those things then the default is I just need more success I need more base hits and But that's too far out of your control. It's just you

John Jantsch (09:37.115)

Mm-hmm.

Jim (09:40.844)

Now you're just happy if you get hit, sad if you don't, and stressed when you need it, and you're never gonna be your best when you're stressed. We need to have freedom to fail to be your best. There needs to be an element of joy and excitement to be your best. In order to have that joy and excitement, we need to focus on the reason why you want the base hit. Why do you want the base hit? Well, so I can have a good batting average. Why do I want that? So I can become an all-star. Why do you want that?

So I can make more money. What do you want that? Well, I want a great life. Really. I want a more comfortable life. Well, what is it that you really want? Is it just a $10 million house on the water? Is that what you want? Or is it what you think that will give you, which is great experiences and deep enriching relationships where you're learning and growing and making a difference, where you feel fully alive? Is that what you okay? That's what you want? Well, I'm going show you how to go for that directly and let everything else be added to you.

John Jantsch (10:33.932)

So we have been talking mostly about athletes, but you coach a lot of business leaders who are certainly not performing in the same way. Is it any different or is it really basically get down to the same bottom line?

Jim (10:49.582)

Exact same thing. I don't teach people what to do, how to do their job. Unless it's pro baseball, I might have had a few couple things there, but it doesn't matter if you're a CEO of Google or you're a pro athlete or Olympic swimmer or anybody. It's really how do you be fully engaged in the moment when you're performing unattached to what you're trying to do? How can you expand what you believe is possible? How can you perform with freedom and passion?

John Jantsch (10:58.361)

Yeah.

Jim (11:18.848)

unattached to what you're trying to do. And that's, that's everything I'm telling you about is really clarifying these things that are most meaningful to you and, pursuing them.

John Jantsch (11:28.123)

So athletes today, I mean, obviously they've trained their body. mean, that's kind of a lot. That's, that's what comes with the deal. Increasingly, you're seeing sports psychologists. You know, you're actually seeing people in the dugout, uh, that are, you know, mindset related. Business owners don't necessarily, well, a lot of them don't train their body like an athlete, even though they need to perform, but they certainly don't have the same idea of training their mind. Are there exercise? I know there are exercises in your system. Uh, you want to talk a little bit about.

ones that are really geared towards entrepreneurs or even have a lot of marketers on this show that would help them train their mind.

Jim (12:08.684)

Yeah, well, with the InterEx Lancers, the number one goal every day is to learn and grow. If you want to be great at business, we need to be creative. We can't be attached to the results and circumstances. We need to think clearly. We have to have a clear mind and unburdened heart. If you want to be great at anything, business included, we can't be caught up in the past and future. so learn and grow every day is the number one goal. And then within that, we have four daily goals.

Give the best of what you have some days it's not going to be good. Be present, be grateful, focus on your routines and only what you can control.

John Jantsch (12:46.575)

There certainly is, you talk openly about the spiritual elements of what you teach, presence, gratitude, acceptance, in addition to like performance metrics. Do you ever, especially with business leaders, do you ever get any skepticism, pushback that, just like give me the tools, give me the, you I don't need that woo-woo stuff.

Jim (13:09.68)

yeah, yeah. Pro athletes, business leaders. Yeah, definitely. If you're a high achiever, then you don't want the woo woo. You want tangible results. You don't want to mess around. You don't want to waste your time. And I get it. The question is if something is really important to you, if this is the biggest year of your career, maybe your free agent or maybe you have a massive deal you're working on or just trying to get a job and you need the money.

The more important it is to you, then the more important the process of how you live and what you do every day is, you know, then it's more important. So the question is, what's the best process for you to be your best every day? And that's what InterEx is, is I present to you what I think, what I've learned is the best process for the majority of people to be fully engaged in the moment, heart, mind and body on a test and what they're trying to do.

John Jantsch (14:02.297)

You talk about in the book embracing, excuse me, vulnerability and even failure in some cases. You want to talk a little bit about whether it's on your own personal life or with the client where you've helped, we're embracing that imperfection has kind of led to a breakthrough.

Jim (14:21.922)

Yeah, I define humility as an accurate view of self, not overinflated and not under inflated. And so

John Jantsch (14:25.563)

Right.

Jim (14:34.382)

pro athletes and most people they come to me because they're underperforming and essentially they come to me wanting they're obsessing about things that they want can't control and then they just try harder and then the trying harder causes them to be more tense more anxious and worse performance and so then they just that causes more stress and then they feel like they need to become more needy and so it's just this endless loop and so essentially

They're coming to me for low level needs and desires. Become world number one. Be the best in the industry. That's a low level need is, well, one, I call it low level because you don't even know if it's good for you, let alone gonna make you happy. Say you got a million followers or $10 million or $10 million house on the water. Is that gonna make you happy? You might think so and hopefully, but it may not. And so, but that's people come to me because I've helped people achieve extraordinary success.

John Jantsch (15:09.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jim (15:32.438)

generally most people their first year together, they have the best year of their careers. It's because we focus on developing themselves as people giving inner strength and inner peace, let everything else be added to them. So, this is the crucial thing.

John Jantsch (15:48.773)

So how do you balance the fact that, especially in the field that you're working with, mean, that people are taught their entire lives to strive for excellence, to hustle, to work harder, to outwork everybody else. I how do you balance that? Because you're not, I mean, they obviously have to have the skills they have to put into work, but you're telling them something completely different than what society is probably pumping in.

Jim (16:14.998)

Yeah. Society says the only thing that matters is the results, bottom line, black and white, zero sum score. Like it's either win or lose. There's only only so many pieces to the pie. And I'm saying, we live in an unstable, unfair world that has a lot of, horrible things in it. And, if you don't have a clear system, you're going to get sucked into negativity and because of all the instability and even evil and violence.

So we need to have a clear system to make sure we're focusing on who you can become and what's possible in your life. And so, Inter Excellence is about developing the habits of thought and action every day where you can be fully engaged in the moment more often, unattached to the results of what you're trying to do. And we do that by training your heart to love most what's most empowering.

John Jantsch (17:03.493)

So I'm guessing a fair amount of people you work with need like you need to strip some stuff away, you know, because they come to you with being full on being doing. What's kind of the first step to get somebody to shift their mindset from that, you know, away from doing and more towards, I guess you would call it being.

Jim (17:25.762)

how they speak. The first thing we do is we make sure that we're speaking the truth. That's Inter Excellence has nine disciplines and one of the disciplines is to speak the truth about the past to create possibilities in the future. So people come to me and they want to perform better. they're, they often will talk to me about how they're struggling with something. And, but the thing is your subconscious is what's running your life and creating these beliefs that are limitations on what's possible.

It's really, really hard to outperform your beliefs, the subconscious comfort level with what you feel is possible in your life. And so, Inter-Excellence is largely about expanding what you believe is possible by getting yourself to see possibilities and feel it as if it's real. And so we need to be able to come to edge of our feelings and beliefs and not resist those moments where we're super uncomfortable.

John Jantsch (18:18.393)

Because your work went from being exposed to X amount of people to a much larger X, has that changed just because I'm guessing you're getting a lot more feedback, you have more people reaching out to you saying, hey, I want a piece of you. Has that changed not you, but has that changed anything, how you think about your system, how you think about the work, or is it only validated?

Jim (18:46.894)

Oh yeah, it's changed a lot. My life has changed a lot. Um, I think of what if I would have died January 11th or before, you know, I, the majority of the things in the book that I wrote 16 years ago are the same. And it was selling one to two copies a day before January 12th. And then, um, you know, now it's like I said, it's going to be in 26 or 27 languages and it's sold half a million copies or whatever. And so, um,

John Jantsch (18:58.255)

Right.

Jim (19:14.646)

what's changed is is well, I want to more definitely more confidence in the message. Like in the past, I you know, I believed in the message for sure. But there's always a wonder like, why don't more people? Why isn't the book more popular? didn't understand it. And so now it's just kind of that's really cool. But I don't think of myself as as the originator of this.

John Jantsch (19:32.304)

Yeah.

Jim (19:41.876)

or even author. I'm just a lowly messenger. And so because it's so extraordinary, everything that's happened, it's, I mean, it's, there's no way that I could say, I did this. And so the moment we start to think that I'm doing it and that I'm somebody because I'm doing these great things, then we start to get afraid of, what if I make mistakes? But when you can take yourself completely out of the picture,

John Jantsch (19:52.123)

Thanks

John Jantsch (20:06.521)

Yeah.

Jim (20:10.904)

there's no concern for self, then you can be fearless. God's given me this gift that I realized, you know, at the very most I've added maybe one or 2 % to anything good that's happened in the last six months. And since I know that there's no like, I'm somebody now. I know I'm nobody.

John Jantsch (20:30.873)

Yeah. Well, Jim, I appreciate you taking a moment to share with our listeners. Is there some place you would invite people to connect with you? Obviously the book's available everywhere, but if people want to learn more about your coaching or just really, you know, anything, explore anything deeper from the book.

Jim (20:53.09)

Yeah, I would go to interexcellence.com and sign up for the newsletter. We have a VIP newsletter that talks about our retreats and workshops. We've got a retreat coming up in Mexico here very soon. and then social media, Instagram, InterExcellence, InterExcellence, Jim Murphy, and other social media outlets. You'll find me.

Jim (21:16.28)

Thanks so much, John.

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Marketing in the Era of Uber Trends

Marketing in the Era of Uber Trends written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Michael Tchong, innovation expert, futurist, and founder of Uber Trends. Named “America’s most influential trend spotter” by Daily Telegraph, Michael has helped brands like Apple, Amex, and Mercedes-Benz anticipate seismic shifts in technology and consumer behavior. Michael breaks down the difference between fleeting fads and true “Uber Trends,” shares his process for pattern recognition and trend validation, and explains why transparency, instant gratification, and user experience are core forces reshaping marketing, business, and culture.

About the Guest

Michael Tchong is a renowned innovation expert, sought-after speaker, and the founder of Uber Trends. He’s been recognized as America’s top trend spotter and has guided Fortune 500 companies in anticipating and capitalizing on shifts that drive consumer behavior and technology. Michael is the author of “Ubertrends: How Trends and Innovation Are Transforming Our Future,” founder of the Uber Trends Academy, and a passionate advocate for leveraging deep trend insight for competitive advantage.

• Website & Academy: ubertrends.com
• Book: Ubertrends: How Trends and Innovation Are Transforming Our Future
• Community: Uber Trends Academy (via Mighty Networks)

Actionable Insights

• Uber Trends are massive, value-shifting waves that reshape society and spark dozens of subtrends—unlike shallow fads, they create lasting change.
• Pattern recognition and connecting data “dots” is the key skill for trend spotting; analyzing headlines, reading research critically, and tagging patterns are daily habits for Michael.
• Time compression, instant gratification, and “TBD” (too busy disorder) are core Uber Trends affecting everything from TikTok to retail hours—businesses must adapt to shorter attention spans and higher expectations.
• User experience and transparency are essential for future-ready businesses; consumers demand seamless journeys, clear pricing, and visible customer support.
• The explosion of martech and AI tools signals a “great martech displacement”—disruption is coming from nimble new players, not industry incumbents.
• Marketers and business owners should focus on finding pain points tied to Uber Trends and build innovation around solving them (not just chasing the latest app or fad).
• Trendspotting is a skill anyone can build: Read widely, analyze patterns, maintain a trend database, and be skeptical about research and survey data.
• The future belongs to those who can connect systemic shifts to actionable business ideas—turning trend insight into competitive advantage.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:09 – Uber Trends vs. Micro Trends
  Michael explains his framework and why only a few shifts truly change society.
• 03:18 – What Makes an Uber Trend?
  Massive, value-shifting, and “changes people,” not just culture.
• 04:42 – Pattern Recognition and Connecting the Dots
  Why trend spotting is about data analysis and seeing the big picture.
• 08:31 – Turning Trends Into Business Innovation
  How leaders can build around pain points and lasting shifts, not fads.
• 10:25 – The Great Martech Displacement
  Why 40,000 new AI apps are disrupting traditional marketing tech stacks.
• 13:19 – User Experience as the Ultimate Differentiator
  Why transparency, customer support, and frictionless journeys are the new competitive edge.
• 15:15 – Transparency, Pricing, and the Self-Led Buyer Journey
  Marketing must adapt as buyers expect everything to be visible before talking to sales.
• 17:14 – Spotting Trends Early—and What Michael Missed
  Reflections on time compression, instant gratification, and what’s next.
• 20:14 – Habits for Marketers Who Want to Spot Trends
  Michael’s daily reading, trend database, and tips for separating signal from noise.

Insights

“Uber Trends are not fads—they’re massive, value-shifting waves that actually change people, not just society.”

“Pattern recognition is the heart of trend spotting. It’s about connecting the dots and seeing the big picture among all the noise.”

“Time compression, instant gratification, and higher expectations are pushing businesses to deliver user experiences that are fast, transparent, and frictionless.”

“The martech world is being disrupted—not by incumbents, but by nimble new AI players who understand the next wave.”

“Anyone can learn to spot trends—read widely, question research, maintain a database, and always look for actionable patterns you can build a business around.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.93)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Michael Tchong. He's an innovation expert, sought after speaker and founder of Uber Trends. He's recognized as America's most influential trend spotter by Daily Telegraph. Michael has helped companies like Apple, American Express and Mercedes-Benz anticipate and capitalize on seismic shifts in consumer behavior and technology. He's known for his energetic

presentations, uncanny predictions and unique frameworks for decoding the future. So, Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Tchong (00:37.382)

thank you for having me, John. It's a pleasure to be here, especially with someone who is in the digital marketing arena.

John Jantsch (00:44.59)

for many years before we had digital marketing in fact, but still in it. So as I read in your bio, you've been called America's most influential trend spotter. So I'm wondering, do you have a kind of a personal process for identifying, know, real lasting trends versus kind of passing fads? you got a methodology that generally is on target?

Michael Tchong (01:09.197)

Well, I think that and I have a book called uber trends how trends and innovation are transforming our future I am really focused on my eight uber trends because they are what I consider to be value shift inducing trends most trends just skim the social surface so

Those eight uber trends, the digital lifestyle, the marriage of man and machine, generation ecstasy, been there, done that, voyeur orgasm, I like to watch. I know these are, you know, stand out waves that I believe repercuss through society, rippling across our social surface and creating many, sub trends in their wake. that now, so if a if I see a phenomenon that is

John Jantsch (01:44.334)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (02:02.637)

tied to one of these trends, then I know it's part of a lasting happening. think that that's really how you have to look at it. So for example, you know, the experience if inflation, which is one of my Uber trends, is, of course, quite appropriate for Las Vegas, because we have so many.

John Jantsch (02:10.87)

Mmm. Okay.

John Jantsch (02:27.278)

Yeah

Michael Tchong (02:29.837)

of Meow Wolf, and now we have the Universal Horror Experience, and you've got the Sphere. These are all things that are aimed directly under the aegis of Generation XTC at an audience that's become so bored and so immune to excitement because they want to move on to the next thing, just like, you know, been there, done that suggests.

John Jantsch (02:56.846)

Hehehe.

Michael Tchong (02:57.677)

that I look at those type of phenomena as a part of a lasting change in society.

John Jantsch (03:05.293)

So maybe I better back up a little bit. Let's define first the concept of an Uber trend that obviously it's central to your work. How do you define one? What makes it different from say a micro trend?

Michael Tchong (03:18.221)

Okay, an uber trend is a massive wave, think tsunami that cascades through society, leaving many sub trends in its wake. And what sets it apart, like I mentioned, unlike most trends, it does not skim the social surface, it actually changes people. So let me give you a perfect example of that. Time compression, the acceleration of life.

We are all suffering from TBD, too busy disorder, as Ellen DeGeneres coined it. We are all multitasking to save time. We've all become massively impatient. So the TikTok video view is now two seconds because everyone clicks off in 1.6 to 1.8 seconds. That is part and parcel.

John Jantsch (04:11.65)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tchong (04:15.637)

of the time compression Uber trend. So when you see again, these snapshots in society, I connect the dots. We're all inundated by data. And so what I tried to say is, look, this is all part and parcel of a phenomenon that has legs and that is something that you need to watch as a marketer, especially.

John Jantsch (04:42.092)

So I have been doing this show for coming up on 20 years. Actually, August 1st is my 20th anniversary of doing this show as a podcast. Prior to that, I actually did a radio show. And so I have interviewed many, many people. I interviewed John Nesbitt, who was the author of Megatrends. And so he was kind of the first person to talk trends, to me at least. I'm sure there have been others. your work been influenced by some of his early work?

Michael Tchong (04:52.801)

Wow.

Michael Tchong (05:02.422)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (05:06.198)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (05:12.917)

Well, megatrends is what everybody will call it when I talk about Uber trends, right? But, you know, remember I'm a marketer by heart. Okay. That's my background. I worked a shy day, you know? So when I decided on the Uber nomenclature way before Uber was cool, I was Uber cool. I adopted that as the name for my trends. And think about it.

John Jantsch (05:16.898)

Yes. Right,

Michael Tchong (05:42.901)

You're a marketer. Think about the marketing perspective. You've got the seventies. You've got Alvin Toffler, Future Shock. Everyone talks about that. Then the eighties appears and you've got John Nesbit, Megatrends. Everyone talks about that. Then you get Fade Popcorn in the nineties and some people talk about it. Then you get Malcolm Gladwell in the two thousands who is more of a author, you know, someone who's

John Jantsch (05:49.784)

Right.

John Jantsch (05:59.416)

Alright, the popcorn diaries, right? Yeah.

Michael Tchong (06:12.48)

Paints a great story, but I wouldn't necessarily consider him to be a sublime trend watcher. I think he's really more focused on creating these stories and, you know, 10,000 hours that you have to become before you become proficient at something. So there is a vacuum in my view and the vacuum that is currently being occupied by the likes of say a Rainier Avers at trend watching in the Netherlands.

John Jantsch (06:27.256)

Yeah, right, right.

John Jantsch (06:32.408)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (06:41.228)

And there's a gentleman in Jeremy Gucci in Canada with Trend Hunter. me, yeah, and with all due respect, let me tell you something. Many of their 10,000 or so, 20,000 or so trend labels, most of those are fads.

John Jantsch (06:44.91)

Yeah. Jeremy's been on this show. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:07.448)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Tchong (07:08.46)

Most of those are, know, a picture, a picture hook for your wall in the shape of a dagger. Who cares? I don't. That may be good for a small business operator who's looking for a creative idea, perhaps, but I am more interested in the systemic shifts in society. That is my difference.

John Jantsch (07:19.309)

You

Right.

Michael Tchong (07:37.932)

And so when you are looking for a value proposition as a marketer, how do I take an idea of an emerging trend and turn it into a you know, shape shifting business solution? That's what I'm all about.

John Jantsch (07:55.35)

Yeah. mean, I mean, all the conversation around trends is really just kind of almost fun pop culture until you can do something with it. Right. And I think that that's the, that's the real rub is a lot of people can say, yeah, that, okay. I see that coming. Or maybe I don't, or maybe that's a big deal, but how do I capitalize on it? So, you know, how do you advise people you, I mentioned in your bio that you work with some, big name companies, how do you advise them to take something that

Michael Tchong (08:04.595)

Exactly.

Michael Tchong (08:15.36)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:24.13)

that maybe you've defined and you see coming and then say, hey, here's how to prepare for it.

Michael Tchong (08:31.306)

Well, look, there is no real magic in anything that we do as business people. I always say you've got to pay attention to the details. So for example, in my presentations, I talk about the fact that, you know, everyone aspires to come up with a disruptive innovation. But Steve Jobs, with all the things that he did.

John Jantsch (08:53.774)

Sure.

Michael Tchong (09:00.182)

did not necessarily create anything new. When he took the iPod, he takes something that came out of Singapore, creative strategies. I'm not a creative strategist, but you know who I'm talking about. They already had an MP3 player, but he just did a best of breed. He put a five megabyte, which at the time was huge, of storage into a device. But the biggest innovation there was

John Jantsch (09:16.27)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:21.388)

Yeah, right, right.

Michael Tchong (09:27.958)

tying it to a music store so that you could automatically seamlessly download some music. So as a business person, when you're looking at emerging trends and you're seeing all the things that are happening in our current landscape, and there are many, okay, you have to then decide, okay, how do I build a business around that? So again, you take baby steps, you say,

John Jantsch (09:31.47)

Yeah, right.

Michael Tchong (09:56.921)

What is the pain point in society related to this emerging trend? What are people not able to do or accomplish in a simple fashion to get this to work for them? Especially in this day and age where, know, let's go through some numbers here. You're in digital marketing. You know as well as I, the Scott Brinker has that barometer.

John Jantsch (10:13.848)

the

Michael Tchong (10:25.9)

And in May, he said there were 15,400 or so digital marketing apps. And that took 31 years from the day that that first ad banner appeared on Hotwired, 1994, May 1994, till now, 31 years to get to 15,400 apps. Since the debut of OpenAI's chat GPT, November 30th of 2022, we will never forget.

John Jantsch (10:32.748)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (10:55.596)

We now have almost 40,000 AI apps.

John Jantsch (11:02.892)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (11:03.486)

Massive, massive, but what that does tell you is that there is a, and I call this trend the great martech displacement. Okay. Because in all my explorations, if you will, of the apps that are marketing related.

John Jantsch (11:14.158)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (11:29.032)

One of the things I noticed that, hey, you know what? There are almost no traditional players in all these articles that are talking about, you know, the digital sales representative and, know, GEO, which is now the new SEO, Generative AI, born engine optimization, is that these things are not occupied by the traditional player.

John Jantsch (11:35.384)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:41.709)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:47.49)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (11:58.78)

If I was a small business consultant and I was focused on what the next generation of my clients would be demanding, I would suggest that they start looking into what are these leading edge tools and build a business around.

John Jantsch (12:15.406)

Yeah, I actually think that it'll be interesting. Some of the entrenched players, I think will try to get it in the space, I think that, I think there's a, right now that the AI apps are, you know, there are 200 of them that somebody could use and at any given time, I think those are all going to get consolidated and eaten up by somebody who figures out how to create the AI operating system as kind of one deliverable package. And I think people will

You know, right now there's a whole bunch of $20 a month tools. think there's somebody's going to come along and create the 599, you know, all in one package that I think, I think will, especially for small and midsize businesses.

Michael Tchong (12:51.455)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (12:55.363)

That's what Elon Musk says he wants to do. There's been talk about that super app for years now. I have not seen it. In 1992, I created the first incursion of what I consider a modularly upgradable CRM system. It was called Hello.

John Jantsch (12:57.998)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:03.49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's because it's hard.

John Jantsch (13:17.39)

Hmm. Huh.

Michael Tchong (13:19.145)

because I am focused on the user experience. That is what I believe is the number one thing you should be talking about when, in this new age, with everyone being hyper competitive, the customer experience is what sets you apart. So as a small business person, that is what I focus on. Transparency is the other thing that I highly advocate everybody pursue.

We are living in an era where that's ruled by voyeurgasm. I like to watch UberTrend. And that is propelling that urge by society to be able to see more. It's propelled by YouTube. You've got celebrity worship syndrome. You've got reality shows. know, everything has become transparent. We're living in surveillance culture. You know, again, all of these are opportunities as they keep exploding.

to create businesses around and, you know, make sure you do that. So for example, in our business, in our software business, you know as well as I do, every developer out there hides their customer service email. They have no 800 toll free numbers. They try so desperately to make sure that no one can find them. There's no street address. There's nothing.

John Jantsch (14:34.136)

Ha ha.

Michael Tchong (14:44.413)

It is totally anathema to the wave of the future of transparency. Absolutely. So I go and preach to an audience that is totally hostile. They don't want to hear that. And I say, look at your ketchup bottle. You will see that there is an 800 toll free number on your ketchup bottle. Why can't you have that? If I have to pay you $50 a month.

John Jantsch (14:49.1)

Yeah, I agree with that, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:57.603)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (15:13.759)

for your service.

John Jantsch (15:15.906)

Well, I'm, I'm actually, I tell you one trend that I'm seeing then that's directly related to marketing is people, you know, because the buyer now has so much control over the journey and information and what they can find, you know, even creating short lists of, of, potential vendors that pricing is not going to be, I think, showing your pricing, revealing your pricing on your website as part of the customer journey before I ever have to talk to a salesperson.

I think is a trend that goes to this transparency, but also kind of, think goes to how people expect to buy today. They don't want a salesperson to call them. They want to almost do a self-led journey, even for very high ticket items. I think that you're going to see more and more marketers that are going to put everything on the table because they have no choice.

Michael Tchong (15:58.335)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (16:09.609)

Yeah, I hope so. know, I still the minute I run into any solution that has no pricing page, I go away, you know, and yeah, we're a small business people. We all know we need to be diligent about our budgets and spending. So it is absolutely crucial that I know upfront that I have full pricing transparency and that I, like you said, don't have to call somebody.

John Jantsch (16:11.086)

You

John Jantsch (16:19.788)

Right. Well, and I think you're not alone. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:35.47)

Well, or, or, or I was going to say, just, don't want to waste my time to find out it's 10 times more than I can afford, uh, you know, is the answer. So, so it's like, I want to at least know what I'm getting into before I even want to have that conversation or waste my time. think that, you know, kind of goes to your short attention span, you know, nobody wants a sales call. I mean, we want to be able to just do it 24 seven when we feel like it. Are there any?

Michael Tchong (16:43.476)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (16:50.847)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (16:59.239)

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John Jantsch (17:02.594)

Are there any trends that you feel like you spotted early on and you've been able to take advantage of? And then I can give you the flip side. Are there any that you feel like you really missed?

Michael Tchong (17:14.991)

Well, I was talking about time compression back in the 90s. And so I, to me, society has been evolving at a speed. Then when I started to do research into it, I discovered that it really started way back as far as the forties, 1946, the discovery of the microwave oven, the discovery of

John Jantsch (17:19.714)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:36.878)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (17:44.475)

of the Polaroid camera, these both introduced America to instant gratification. And now it's become part and parcel of our culture. We all want to, you I love that Google finding, you know, the interest in results for open now have declined, have increased exponentially as opposed to store hours. Again,

John Jantsch (18:12.876)

Yeah, yeah,

Michael Tchong (18:13.712)

for the retailer, that's good to know because really, you know, I don't want to have to search through your whole website to find what you, if you are open now. I almost advocate that we go back to that. Remember those little banners that used to run on the websites in the nineties? They had a little neon chasing thing. That's what we need on your retailing website, on the homepage, open now.

John Jantsch (18:32.119)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (18:44.146)

I mean, to me, is a, you know, I mean, why do I have to dig it? Now, of course, Google is provided in its summary of results. Thank God. Because again, yeah, I mean, you know, not even that, that directory listing on the right of that business that has the hours and the website and all, mean, you know, that is all information that you as a marketer should have already provided upfront on your homepage.

John Jantsch (18:46.616)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:53.944)

Yeah, the AI overviews are definitely cutting into that kind of search.

John Jantsch (19:11.512)

Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Kind of reminds me, you were talking about the instant gratification. There was a movie, I never can remember the title of this, but the characters were teenagers and their mother had died and they found a camera that, film camera that she had taken some, obviously taken some pictures and they were like, let's go get these, you know, developed, see what's on it. So they take it in the store and he said, do you want the one hour service? And they were like, we have to wait an hour to get these pictures.

Michael Tchong (19:30.634)

Mm.

Michael Tchong (19:39.108)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.678)

I really, I find that to be one of the kind of the funniest moments to really sum up this. All right. So.

If a marketer wants to become a trend spotter themselves to some degree, are there any habits that you think that they need to start building around looking for those? is it simply a matter of read your book, Uber Trends, and then try to apply those to some process in their book or in their business?

Michael Tchong (20:14.186)

or join ubertrendsacademy, my school, where you will be learning a lot about trend watching. Essentially, it's parsing a lot of information. It's pattern recognition, okay? I I look at four to 500 headlines a day. I then categorize and database the articles.

John Jantsch (20:24.088)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tchong (20:35.818)

They're all stored now in an Airtable database. I have keyworded them. I track over 350 trends, most of them related to my Uber trends because I cannot track every trend known to man, you know, because that would be tens of thousands. But I am just looking at the ones that everyone talks about. So I've got about 350 of those. And then what you then do is it's a relational database. So it's categorized, it's tagged. Trends can have

John Jantsch (20:46.606)

Sure.

Michael Tchong (21:05.466)

overlapping market impacts, so they have to be tagged. So if I were to say to you, okay, you want to become a trend watcher? Yeah, you can, absolutely. Read the New York Times, read the Wall Street Journal. They are the biggest providers of trend watching in America. Then BBC and perhaps, you know, Futurism, know, Wired.

I read TechCrunch every day, I read The Verge every day, and then I go into Google News and I look at what they provide me, and then people share a lot of information with me as well, so that helps. That's my informal trend-watching army. So I get help, and I need it. There's too much stuff to absorb, it's impossible, right?

John Jantsch (21:59.554)

Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

Michael Tchong (22:02.793)

Yeah, you can definitely become a trend watcher. So you have to analyze the data. You have to spot patterns, and that's the critical thing. You have to really understand the difference between a good survey and a bad survey. And most research is bad. OK? Let me give you that. So when you see.

John Jantsch (22:20.76)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (22:25.322)

a statistic for example that says 43 % of kids would love to play video games on their watch. You then have to know that in traditional research we divide audiences into quintiles, which are approximate fifths. And the spectrum goes from the one end of the spectrum is people who do everything

And then the other end of the spectrum is the people who do nothing. All right. As I call them legally dead. And in that spectrum, what you will find, and it goes into those approximate fifths beautifully really, because the top two quintiles, 40 % want to play video games on their watch.

John Jantsch (23:00.525)

Hahaha.

John Jantsch (23:20.536)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (23:21.82)

And so that 43 % statistic tells me nothing. That only tells me, hmm, it's representative of the market at large. So reading research is absolutely critical because that is, you know, when they say, you know, 20 % of people never use AI. Hey, it's the bottom quintile. They never do anything.

John Jantsch (23:31.468)

Yes, yes, yes.

John Jantsch (23:46.53)

Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Well, Michael, I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. there some place you'd invite people to learn about you connect with you? Obviously, find out more about your uber trends group.

Michael Tchong (23:51.581)

You know? So...

Michael Tchong (24:06.762)

Yes, absolutely. So ubertrends.com, that is where the Academy is based and that is where you will find plenty of information about our community. I invite people to join it. It's on Mighty Networks, which is a startup by Gina Biancini who started Ring, if you remember that from the, I'm sorry, Ning, Ning, not Ring, Ning, in another community platform. Yeah, Gina, Gina, oh, you get around, man, you know.

John Jantsch (24:25.72)

Yeah. Yeah. Ning, Ning. Yeah, yeah. Gina's been on my shelf on this show. Yeah.

John Jantsch (24:36.357)

I do.

Michael Tchong (24:36.362)

So, yeah, so what we're trying to create is a community of people that talk to one another, you know. I don't know if you remember, but I was the founder of Iconocast. We were one of the preeminent digital marketing newsletters during the dot com boom. So we had 50,000 readers each week that were part of and parcel of a very hardcore community. That's what we like to build again.

John Jantsch (24:53.602)

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

John Jantsch (25:03.99)

Awesome. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you. I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Michael Tchong (25:06.196)

All right.

Michael Tchong (25:11.186)

And by the way, this is a T-shirt that is part of my innovation crusade. It's you call that innovation is the hashtag. It's a laughing emoji because the reality is, as you well know, everyone talks about innovation, but it's like teenage sex. No one does it. On that note. Take thanks. Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (25:19.054)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (25:34.838)

Awesome. I appreciate it.

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Why Peer Groups Accelerate Success

Why Peer Groups Accelerate Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Victoria Downing, president of Remodelers Advantage—the leading peer group and business improvement resource for remodeling company owners. With over three decades of experience, Victoria explains how peer groups, professional training, and a focus on both profit and work-life balance have helped thousands of remodelers scale their businesses, lead more effectively, and create better lives for themselves and their teams. If you’re interested in how accountability, community, and structured learning can accelerate your growth—no matter your industry—this episode is packed with actionable insights.

About the Guest

Victoria Downing is the president of Remodelers Advantage, the premier peer group and business improvement organization for remodeling contractors. For more than 30 years, Victoria has helped remodelers across the US and Canada improve profitability, leadership, and work-life balance. She is a sought-after speaker, industry pioneer, and advocate for viewing your business as a tool for creating a great life—for yourself, your team, and your clients.

• Website: remodelersadvantage.com
• Summit: remodelerssummit.com
• Email: victoria@remodelersadvantage.com

Actionable Insights

• Your business should be a tool for creating the life you want—for both owners and employees—not just an engine for profit.
• Peer groups are powerful: non-competing companies from all over the country meet to share numbers, challenges, and best practices, creating deep accountability and real results.
• The most successful remodelers invest in their teams, using credits and resources for professional development, masterclasses, and specialized peer groups (production, design, finance, etc.).
• Many contractors start as technicians—great at the craft, but not always at the business skills (especially finance and delegation). Peer groups help bridge that gap.
• Clear, accurate financials are essential—the numbers tell the story and help owners decide what to focus on next.
• Growth comes from learning to delegate and letting go of control; owners who try to hold onto every decision become the bottleneck.
• Publicly sharing numbers and commitments with a peer group drives focus, accountability, and targeted improvement.
• Technology (from CRMs to project management to AI) is rapidly evolving—Remodelers Advantage helps companies share what works and stay ahead without pushing a single software.
• The peer group model is thriving in many industries; masterminding with other business owners cuts your learning curve in half and keeps you on the leading edge.
• Group dynamics matter—matching by size, style, and personality (using tools like DISC) creates high-functioning, supportive communities.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 00:56 – What is Remodelers Advantage?
  Victoria explains the vision: building better lives through better businesses.
• 03:02 – The Power of Peer Groups
  How non-competing owners form deep accountability, learn, and grow together.
• 05:23 – Investing in the Team
  Specialized peer groups and credits for professional development boost performance and retention.
• 07:20 – The Technician’s Trap
  Why so many owners struggle with finance, delegation, and growth—and how peer groups help.
• 09:17 – Accountability and “Peer Pressure”
  How public commitments drive faster, more focused improvement.
• 11:38 – Adapting to Technology
  How Victoria’s team stays agnostic but ahead, sharing what’s working across the industry.
• 13:31 – Group Dynamics and the Role of DISC
  How careful placement and personality matching keep groups thriving.
• 16:21 – Real Results: 30% Revenue Growth, Complete Overhauls, and More
  Victoria shares a real-life member’s story of transformation.
• 18:13 – Peer Groups in Other Industries
  How masterminding accelerates learning and keeps Victoria sharp as a leader herself.
• 19:19 – What’s Next for Remodelers and the Industry
  How Victoria’s team helps members stay on top of trends and plan for the future.

Insights

“Your business is a tool to build the life you want. Start with your goals, then engineer your business to deliver them.”

“Peer groups aren’t just about sharing wins—they’re about accountability for the tough stuff, too. That’s where growth happens.”

“The most successful owners invest in their teams’ development. When your people get better, your business gets better.”

“Clear, accurate numbers are a must. If you can’t read your financials, you can’t steer your business.”

“Business management is business management—masterminding with peers cuts your learning curve in half, in any industry.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.026)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and my guest today is Victoria Downing. She's the president of Remodeler's Advantage. It's the leading peer group and business improvement resource for remodeling company's owners. For more than two decades, Victoria has helped thousands of remodelers improve profitability, leadership and work-life balance. Remodeler's Advantage has really been known as

probably the leading peer group network, certainly in the industry for training and for helping folks grow their businesses. I actually have a couple of clients over the years that have been in this group and it really led me to wanting to interview Victoria. So welcome to the show.

Victoria Downing (00:47.33)

Well, thank you for having me.

John Jantsch (00:48.984)

So I guess let's just start with kind of somebody said, so Victoria, what is Remidler's advantage? Maybe just kind of set the baseline for what the group is and does.

Victoria Downing (00:56.581)

Okay, the baseline, let's talk about the vision first, right? Our vision is to be the company that all remodelers turn to for a better life. We are all about looking at your business as a tool to help you build the life you want for yourself and for your employees while delivering a fantastic product to the community. So that's our focus when we deliver that in a lot of different ways.

John Jantsch (01:21.902)

Well, it's interesting to hear you say, because it, you know, I think I led in the bio, they're talking about making companies more profitable, but you kind of led with work life balance. Do you feel like that's those two are very, very intrinsically connected? Yeah.

Victoria Downing (01:36.349)

Absolutely. I mean, again, your business is a tool. So I always encourage our members, especially when they first come in, where are we trying to take you? What finances do you have to have to live your life now and into retirement and for your family and for college and all the stuff for your goals? How much money do you need to live that life? Well, that we back into that and say, OK, now how can we modify, manipulate this business to get you the funds you need? again, your employees, it's not about

just the owner being greedy and taking every penny, it's building a wonderful culture and future and lifestyle for the employees as well.

John Jantsch (02:15.704)

So the primary tool, guess, and correct me if I'm wrong on that, really is these peer groups. Talk a little bit about how that structure of bringing non-competing folks from all over the country together to really form a community.

Victoria Downing (02:33.775)

Well, I actually realized I have to update my bio because I've actually been doing this for since 1990. So for 35 years, I've been doing this. And it was, we started, started, I had a business partner at the time, Linda Case. She was very big in the industry for years and years and years. And I joined her then. And we would speak at trade shows and talk to a lot of people, write magazine columns and books and so on. And people started coming up to us saying, we're looking for the next level.

John Jantsch (02:40.334)

30, mean, yeah.

Victoria Downing (03:02.341)

We've been coming to trade shows and listening to the speakers for 10, 15 years. We want more. What can we do? So we started a peer group. It was fantastic. And we slowly just added people and added groups over the years till now. We have over 200 companies across the U S and Canada that altogether produce over a billion dollars in revenue annually. So that's a, they're representing a lot of renovations, a lot of remodeling.

John Jantsch (03:02.872)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:32.27)

So, I'll give you a softball question here, because I know the answer to this, but I want to hear you answer it. know, people that get coaching, that participate in peer groups, participate in their community, participate in their industry, tend to be the cream of the crop of an industry. I've just seen that across the board. How have you seen that play out with the RA groups?

Victoria Downing (03:47.033)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (03:52.537)

Well, it certainly is the case that we have a number of people. So let me back up a step. We have two different sort of levels of our round table peer groups. And peer groups makes up about a little bit more than half of our business in total with the others being master classes and events and consulting and coaching. So, but in round tables, there's the base membership and then we have the mentor membership. The mentors tend to be larger, more profitable.

and they tend to have been members of Round Tables for many years. I can't tell you how many people in the mentor levels have been with us for 15, 20 years. And they just keep coming because they know that they're always going to learn something. You know, and yes, is there some diminishing returns over from the first fire hose, those first five years to 20 years in? Certainly. But they know that they can still get the bits and pieces that'll make the difference between

John Jantsch (04:31.566)

You

Victoria Downing (04:49.613)

a good year and an exceptional year. So it really does play out that way.

John Jantsch (04:55.254)

And one of the things I've seen you do that, that I think of course, I'm sure evolved or people asked you for was that, you you, these are owners initially in a lot of the peer groups, but then you've started to put together all of your marketing people are in a peer group, you know, with them or all of your finance people are in a peer group. And how I've got to believe that, that that gets everybody talking the same language, you know, pulling the same direction. Have you, have you found that that, if nothing else is an amazing retention strategy as well.

Victoria Downing (05:08.911)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (05:23.909)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, most of the people that are in those what we call tactical groups, there are people in positions in the companies. Most of those people are from member groups, but we do have some that are from outside the community. Right now we have nine groups for production managers, two groups for design managers, a group for CFOs. And then we also have a variety of what we call power meetings. We'll bring administrators and office managers together for two days of intensiveness.

John Jantsch (05:29.326)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (05:53.39)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria Downing (05:53.539)

And that's another way they pick up the language. But we have found that the companies that are the most successful, and again, I got to go back to some of our longer term members, they invest in their team, right? We can see it. The people who were buying masterclasses, investing in consulting and coaching and all this stuff had better returns than the rest. So what we did about four years ago, I guess it was right around COVID time.

John Jantsch (06:05.592)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:16.856)

Yeah.

Victoria Downing (06:22.179)

We changed our membership to include what we call professional service credits. So people get, I don't know, $5,000 worth of credits that they can use for all sorts of other trades. They can use it for production manager round table membership dues. So that we're encouraging them to follow the lead of the best of the best and invest in their people with, you know, dollars that they have in their pocket from us.

John Jantsch (06:50.606)

So I've worked with a lot of remodeling contractors and every business to some extent, it has a lot of this where people got into business because they knew how to do something. I think remodeling contractors in some cases are the ultimate technicians. mean, they were the ones building the walls and putting in windows and things. And then also had to try to build a business. Do you find that in many cases that kind of technician mentality holds them back a little bit? It's like, I know how to do all this stuff.

Victoria Downing (07:20.128)

Well, it does in a couple of ways. One of the things I've found is that when people come to us at the beginning of their relationship with us, that one of the things that is almost 100 % true is that their financial reporting is a mess. You can't tell what's going on. So if I'm telling them your business is a tool, well, I got to be able to read the story in that tool, right? I to be able to tell what's going on. So we have to start by

John Jantsch (07:34.607)

Mmm, yeah.

Victoria Downing (07:46.447)

helping them organize and learn how to read and understand the information that's in those reports. So then we can say, I always tell people the numbers tell the story. And if they are clear and accurate, the reports can almost tell you what your next move is gonna be. But you gotta have them in a format that we can read and that their peers can read and understand. So that's one way that being a technician holds them back, because they haven't had that business training. But another way,

happens a lot with the area of control. The companies that grow, and you know this as well as I do, it's nothing new under the sun, but those companies that are able to delegate tend to be able to grow. If one of these owners has their fists around every decision that's made in the company, it makes it very difficult to grow beyond yourself.

John Jantsch (08:20.536)

news.

You

John Jantsch (08:39.884)

Yeah. They become the, they become actually the bottleneck for, for, for growth, even though they claim that that's what, what they ultimately want. How has, how have you seen also, I know one of the things that you do, I have a little advantage of hearing a little bit more about what, you do from a very tactical standpoint. You know, you make people bring their numbers, you know, they, they, know, in front of their peers have to say, here's where we're.

Victoria Downing (08:43.481)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:08.728)

winning, here's where we're losing. How does that kind of peer pressure, or if for lack of a better term, actually help them grow?

Victoria Downing (09:10.371)

Right.

Victoria Downing (09:17.455)

Well, it's that there are nine other company representatives from nine other companies sitting there and looking at them and they're saying, well, here's where you're down, but look at this guy over here, he's really high in that, let's get you two together. Or this guy who's doing really well in that area gives advice. So it not only helps them get ideas and strategies for improving the lower levels, but...

It also helps these owners figure out what to work on first. You know, there's that whole thing about just picking the things that are the most important things to work on. And a lot of business owners get confused. They they see them the next shiny object. They take their eye off the ball. They're not watching their pipeline. They're not monitoring the financial statements to know what carpenter's producing profitable jobs and which one's losing jobs. All of that stuff.

These groups help them pinpoint. Every time a member leaves their peer group, they have two or three written commitments that they have to report back to their group who hold them accountable for achieving those commitments. And then they've got the whole team of the peer group, as well as the support staff of us. If they're having challenges in meeting those commitments, we've got resources. One of the beauties, as you know,

in being in the business for as long as we've been in the business, that you have a pretty good network of people and resources that you can share and you can help. So we've got a lot of that at hand.

John Jantsch (10:52.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:58.946)

Let's talk about technology a little bit. know, I mean, when I started my business, you've been in business as long as I have, you know, we didn't have the web. Right. We didn't have, yeah, exactly. And so obviously not only that kind of technology has changed, but even how you run, run their businesses. mean, everything from, you know, quoting to tracking, you know, some of the things that they do, know, inventorying. So, I mean, it's all kind of technology driven today. How, how have.

Victoria Downing (11:07.257)

Yeah, I know. I can remember those days.

John Jantsch (11:28.386)

How have you been able to kind of keep up with that and not just keep up with it, but probably be seen as a leader in helping people adopt new technologies.

Victoria Downing (11:38.117)

Well, one of the things that happens is we try to stay a little bit agnostic on what technology they want to use. There are some outstanding project management softwares focused on the industry. There's two major ones in our space right now. I listen to our members. I'm constantly reading. We receive information from them all day, every day. I get emails from every group. Every group has their own email thread.

John Jantsch (11:42.35)

Mm.

John Jantsch (11:48.302)

Maybe. Sure.

Victoria Downing (12:03.993)

and I get all those emails all the time. So I'm constantly reading about what's working, what's not working. Then I can reach out and ask questions and use that information to compile suggestions and share that information with the rest of the community. So I really relaxed. I mean, I don't do estimates, right? But I pay attention to those who do and what's working and what new things they're finding. you know, so there's, that's a big, big one. The whole CRM sales management thing is a big one.

John Jantsch (12:04.129)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (12:25.422)

Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (12:32.737)

Recently, we had a members only webinar where we featured three of our members and how they use AI in their business. That was pretty fascinating. And now AI has taken over how marketing works and how all those searches and all that work. So we're getting information on that and sharing it with our community as well. It's just everywhere. It's amazing.

John Jantsch (12:41.068)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:53.826)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is evolving. You know, not obviously all my listeners are modeling contractors or in the home services business, but it was, so I really, again, it's this peer group idea that I think is really fascinating. I'm curious, how do you manage some of the dynamics? mean, I'm sure you've had times where like people just weren't getting along in the group or somebody shouldn't be in that group or, know, somebody's dominating that group or something. Again, I, I'm sure you've seen it all.

Victoria Downing (13:07.343)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (13:22.895)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:23.819)

How do you kind of manage some of the dynamics of making sure that you've got a really gelled group?

Victoria Downing (13:31.183)

Well, right for the last probably six years, my colleague Steve Wheeler has been managing the roundtable groups and he is excellent at first of all placement. When we're placing someone in a group, we have to start out by making sure there's nothing competitive in the match. Then we try to match them up with similar volume levels and similar job sizes and similar business models, like are they using all subs?

John Jantsch (13:38.083)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:43.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:48.984)

Right. Right.

Victoria Downing (13:59.043)

or they have their own in-house labor, that sort of thing. And then we also look at a personality profile of each of the members that tells us how they like to give and receive information. We use DISC. All of our members take it. We use it internally. We use it for hiring. It's all over the place. So that helps us also determine where to place people. So are you familiar with DISC at all? OK, so, you know, for example, it's D, I, S, and C.

John Jantsch (14:05.944)

you

John Jantsch (14:12.023)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (14:23.425)

yeah, sure. Yes, I'm.

Victoria Downing (14:28.547)

The S people are slower to make decisions. They're a little bit less outgoing. They like to do more one thing at a time. You get a whole group of S people. It's pretty flippin' quiet. So we gotta throw a D in there to ramp it up or throw an I in there to give it some jazz, you know? But we're constantly monitoring that. And our members, first of all, it's not a class. We're not pablum feeding them.

John Jantsch (14:39.699)

Hehehehehe

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:54.53)

Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Downing (14:54.671)

We're setting up an environment for them to use the resources we make available. Our mission statement is to light the path of greater success for motivated remodeling professionals. We don't do it for them. We show them the way. We give them the resources. We light the path. They have to do the work to get where they want to go. So we talk a lot about that. And that's part of the process. making a commitment.

So anyway, so this is a group of peers that need to be holding one another accountable. And overall for things like commitments, they do a pretty good job. Like, hey dude, you made the commitment, we didn't hear from you, you didn't ask for an extension, why are you coming here without your commitment done? That works pretty well. It's when they don't like someone or there's a personality conflict that then it gets a little bit dicey. It's awkward oftentimes to address that within the group.

So they'll go to their facilitator or they'll come to the staff and we'll help fix it or move somebody to a group that's a better fit. So we do that when they, because we have 25 owner groups, we can do that.

John Jantsch (16:05.218)

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have, and you don't need to name names here at all, but do you have some examples of businesses that you've just really seen grow and flourish, you know, by directly by being a part of a peer group? Yeah.

Victoria Downing (16:21.727)

Absolutely. So as a matter of fact, I got an email this week and I printed it out so that I could read you some of the things that they said. Every year or as somebody's been with us a year, I will reach out to them and ask them what are the changes, improvements that they have made since their time with Roundtables. So I did that with this particular company, which is a Canadian company. We have a number of Canadians in our community.

John Jantsch (16:37.698)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria Downing (16:47.439)

They sent me a list of 18 items that they have improved upon since they joined in one year. You know, I always tell people, like in our mission statement, we talk about greater success. I'll tell people, we know you're going to be successful, but this will cut your time in half. So just to give you a couple of things, revenue growth of 30 % on our rolling 12 month report, gross profit growth of 36%, complete company overhaul. We rebuilt every department in the company.

John Jantsch (16:50.702)

You

Victoria Downing (17:17.509)

We implemented the work in progress process and we meet monthly to review all key financials. We have 100 % better understanding of the financials, WIP, budgeting, et cetera. We've created department scorecards to track and manage KPIs and on and on and on and on. So then the owner goes on and he says,

RA, Remodeler's Advantage, has certainly opened my mind as to what's possible in this business. I feel we have a strong foundation to continue to build upon and our potential is just starting to be realized. We have a long way to go and RA is going to be an integral part in making that happen. That we get dozens of letters like that all the time.

John Jantsch (18:02.958)

You know, because you've been a pioneer in this particular business model, are you familiar and it's okay if you're not, but are you familiar with other industries or other groups similar to RA that you've run across?

Victoria Downing (18:13.871)

Well, funny you should ask, I belong to something called the Council of Masterminds, which is a peer group for companies that do peer groups. We think it's kind of meta, you know? So in that, we're all different industry verticals that we just came back from our meeting. We have peer groups for dentists, optometrists, computer service companies, insurance brokerages, and on and on. And there's about 12 of us that come to this. And I've been going to that meeting.

John Jantsch (18:19.48)

okay.

Okay. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (18:43.429)

twice a year for 20 years. So I am walking the talk and I come back with pages of notes, just like I do even from our peer groups. It's a different industry, but business management is business management is business management. So many ideas fit.

John Jantsch (18:59.416)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking that I'm sure that a lot of your members kind of keep you, you know, like what's going on in the industry. What's the future look like? What's the technology changes? I'm sure you hear a lot of that from your members and that probably helps keep you abreast of things because you're hearing from kind of the cream of the crop. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (19:14.714)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (19:19.833)

Yes, yes, that does too. But again, we also follow all of the studies like the leading indicator of remodeling activity in Harvard and all of those things to try to stay on top. know, House just did a survey talking about what the future looks like for remodeling. We're having a session at the summit on looking forward and how to deal with the uncertainty now and what to expect as we go through the next several years. we try to compile all that information for our members and make it readily available.

John Jantsch (19:24.44)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:49.612)

Yeah, awesome. Well, Victoria, I appreciate you spending a few moments to share with my audience. Is there someplace you'd invite somebody to, whether they're in the industry or not, to learn more about what you do and connect with you?

Victoria Downing (20:04.837)

Well, I'd love them to visit our website, which is RemodelersAdvantage.com. I'd love to them to come to the summit, RemodelersSummit.com. And they can always write to me for more information. I'll steer them in the right direction. And my email is Victoria at RemodelersAdvantage.com.

John Jantsch (20:25.155)

Well, again, I appreciate you spending a few minutes with us and hopefully we'll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Victoria Downing (20:26.959)

Thank you.

Victoria Downing (20:31.139)

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

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