Saturday, April 12, 2025

Weekend Favs April 12th

Weekend Favs April 12th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

  • Teamfluence is a B2B social selling platform designed to enhance LinkedIn-based sales strategies.
  • PhantomBuster offers automation tools to extract data and automate actions across various platforms, aiding in lead generation and outreach.
  • Replit is an online development environment that enables users to write, run, and deploy code collaboratively.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road. These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.



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Thursday, April 10, 2025

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Margie Warrell

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Dr. Margie Warrell, bestselling author, leadership coach, and global authority on courage and risk-taking. We unpacked the core ideas from her latest book The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action—a must-read for anyone navigating the often uncomfortable decisions that come with running a business.

From Fortune 500 boardrooms to small consulting firms, Margie has helped leaders overcome fear, self-doubt, and the imposter syndrome that hold them back from realizing their full potential. Our conversation explored the emotional triggers that prevent entrepreneurs from raising their rates, making bold decisions, or having tough conversations. Her advice? Business courage isn’t about fearlessness—it’s about action in the presence of fear. Whether you’re a solo entrepreneur or leading a team, closing the courage gap could be the difference between surviving and thriving.

Dr. Margie Warrell’s insights offer an actionable framework for overcoming fear, boosting your entrepreneur mindset, and leading with integrity. Bridging the courage gap could be your most powerful strategy for small business growth.

Key Takeaways:

  • The Courage Gap Is Real: The space between what you know you should do and what you actually do is often filled with fear and hesitation—not a lack of knowledge.
  • Bravery in Leadership Starts Small: Margie emphasizes that courage is like a muscle. Daily habits like journaling, exercising, and intentional pauses help strengthen it.
  • Pause or Procrastination?: Learn to distinguish between a strategic pause and fear-based delay. Clarity leads to action.
  • Imposter Syndrome Affects Everyone: While female entrepreneurs often face a unique set of challenges, courage gaps affect all leaders—especially when it comes to pricing strategy and self-worth.
  • Raise Your Rates With Confidence: Stop questioning your value. Consider what your service is worth to them, not just what you feel comfortable charging.
  • Move Through the Unknown: Waiting for certainty leads to stagnation. Small, courageous steps build momentum and inform your next best move.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introduction to Margie Warrell
  • [01:01] What is the Courage Gap?
  • [02:57] The Difference Between Fear-based and Strategic Pausing
  • [05:06] What Role Does Imposter Sydrone Play?
  • [09:48] Finding the Courage to Charge Your Worth
  • [12:15] Habits to Build Courage
  • [14:35] Dealing with Fear of Rejection
  • [17:10] Being Couragous Through the Unknown

More About Margie Warrell: 

  • Check out Margie Warrell’s Website
  • Connect with Margie Warrell on LinkedIn

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Margie Warrell. From the outback Australia to Fortune 500 boardrooms, and the US Congress, Dr. Margie Warrell is a global authority on leadership, courage and navigating risk. Bestselling author, speaker and coach, she empowers people to make bold decisions. She's also the host of a show like this called The Live Brave Live.

There go. I'll get it right. Live brave podcast. We're going to talk about her sixth book today, the courage gap, five steps to braver action. So Margie, welcome to the show. So are you living in Australia? No, you can't be. It would.

Margie Warrell (00:38.333)

Great to be with you, John.

Margie Warrell (00:43.038)

No, I am living on the same terra firma as you. I actually live just south of Washington DC, in North Virginia.

John Jantsch (00:50.711)

Okay, I was gonna say it would be a terrible hour to be doing a podcast in Australia right now. Yes. So let's start with the with the title of the book, The Courage Gap. What is it?

Margie Warrell (00:53.696)

It would, 5 a.m.

Margie Warrell (01:04.804)

Yeah, well, John, have you ever had one of those times where you knew there was something you should do? Like you knew you needed to have a conversation, you knew you needed to make a change and you needed to move someone out of a role or and yet you held back and you hesitated and you procrastinated and you rationalized and I can see you nodding. Well, you know, it is not a lack of knowledge that creates that gap between

John Jantsch (01:24.494)

Yeah, of course. Who has it?

Margie Warrell (01:32.936)

between what we should do and what we do. It is a lack of courage and that gap is widened by our fear. What will happen? What if this person gets upset? What if I mess it up? What if I lose money? What if I get it wrong? What if it's really ugly and awkward and there's a huge fallout? What will people say? What if I fail? And so our fear creates the gap between the actions we're entirely capable of taking, holding someone to account.

you know, getting rid of someone out of your business because they're not a fit, et cetera. Having a difficult conversation with your co-owner and what we actually do. And it takes courage to close that gap. But as I make the case at the start of the book, when we fail to take those risks, to make the change, take the chance, speak up, et cetera, we actually become more vulnerable to worse outcomes over time.

So the discomfort we're trying to save ourselves, the thing we're trying to avoid, we actually end up suffering way more over time and end up in a worse place. And it's why, John, that most people, when I speak to them and I do a lot of speaking and run programs, and I'll say, hey, who here can sometimes regret that they took too long to do a difficult thing? And most people go, yep, yep, yep.

John Jantsch (02:54.766)

Yeah. You know, I've, I've actually been in business 30 years. And so a couple of things I've learned over the years is every now and then you like go through that fear and you do the thing. And actually what happened was way less worse than you thought it was going to be right. And you, start banking that, but then there are also been times when I've paused and that was the right thing to do too. So how do you kind of like, how do you differentiate between fear-based procrastination and a strategic pause?

Margie Warrell (03:24.198)

Yeah, well, I think a pause can be very wise. That is just before plowing forward, stepping back, just re-grounding for a moment in like, okay, what's going on here? Where are my emotions getting away with me? And I think recognizing there's a difference between being brave and courageous and being reckless and foolhardy and impulsive and reactive.

I'm talking about considered action. And I think what you're saying is that sometimes procrastination, but I would call it not procrastination. You're not, know, oh, it's all too hard. It's actually saying, I'm just gonna just stop for a moment and consider things thoughtfully. I'm gonna try and get the emotions out of this. And as objectively as I can, think through the pros and cons short term and

far term of different courses of action and align with my values. What feels right for me? What has integrity here? What aligns with the kind of person, leader, business owner I want to be? Okay, now I'm going to move forward. And so there is a distinct difference. And I think practicing a pause is a lot of power in a pause. And I actually think that when we can stop the busy doing, doing, doing,

John Jantsch (04:46.296)

Yeah, yeah.

Margie Warrell (04:51.072)

and reconnect to who we're being, which let's face it, a lot of business owners really do. It actually high grades the actions we take. It's like, ah, this is what I need to do. It actually can help us be way more effective than just sometimes scurrying furiously and going in circles.

John Jantsch (05:08.327)

So I'm going to probably wade into dangerous territory here. We're going to talk about courage, you're right. Is there a difference in this gap, real or perceived, between men and women? I'm a white male born in America. I think I'm entitled to everything. So why would I have imposter syndrome, right? I'm being somewhat facetious, but not.

Margie Warrell (05:11.774)

Okay, let's go. Let's go. And we're talking about courage.

you

Margie Warrell (05:24.008)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:37.038)

Is it much harder, say, for a woman to particularly, or somebody who doesn't have the advantages that feels like that imposter syndrome is because they're like, do I belong here?

Margie Warrell (05:51.838)

Yes, there is absolutely a difference, gendered difference in our experience of our circumstances, of ourselves, of our ability to navigate risk, what might feel risky. And let me just start by saying that this concept of courage, one, yes, it's a trait. Some people naturally come out of the womb with just a higher tolerance for risk.

John Jantsch (06:09.934)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (06:20.464)

than others. And yes, there's even there's a gender element to that too. You know, I think of my sons like, Mom, look, no hands riding their bike down a hill and my daughter never did that. But yes, I mean, I'm generalizing, but I think there's some truth to that. Men like sticking out at high adrenaline activities more so than women. So I think part of that might be nature, part of it nurture, we're not going to debate that. But recognizing courage isn't just choosing to take action in the presence of fear.

It is also the management of our fear. And often we have more fear than we need to have. So we have this magnified perception of risk. I could never do that. my God, that would be just terrifying. And actually you can do it. And it's as only as terrifying as you're making it to be like to start a business, to expand into a new market, to...

John Jantsch (06:55.926)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:07.79)

you

Margie Warrell (07:12.34)

hold someone accountable, et cetera. And as you said before, sometimes we lay awake in bed, I'll let this person go, I gotta hold them accountable. And then we do it, go, it wasn't that hard, I should have just done it. But for women, and speaking as a woman, and I grew up in Australia, where I think there's also a cultural difference in Australia as well to the USA, but I think women, partially because of our social conditioning, do struggle more with self-doubt.

Do second guess themselves more. not often not feel as confident to put themselves out there to just try something and wing it. I've seen a lot of men going, hey, let's just try this. I don't know quite what I'm doing, but I'll just wing it and I'll fumble through and I'll mess up a few times. And when I do, I'll just go, yeah, whatever, learn something, move on. Women, we ruminate, we second guess, we beat ourselves up when we don't do things perfectly.

John Jantsch (07:40.94)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:57.846)

you

John Jantsch (08:06.562)

Well, or let's let's be honest, sometimes you don't get a second chance. You know, where is just what you said, you know, so there's this fear of like, can't screw up.

Margie Warrell (08:11.497)

and s-

Margie Warrell (08:15.816)

Yeah, and that's true. Women are judged more harshly when they don't get things right. You know, we know with the glass cliff phenomena, etc. But I also think as women, we can sometimes unwittingly internalize misogyny. Like we are biased against ourselves. We judge ourselves more harshly. We also judge other women more harshly. This is actually backed by a lot of data. Women are harder on other women.

John Jantsch (08:36.994)

Interesting.

Margie Warrell (08:45.542)

So there was a great experiment out of Columbia, the Heidi Howard experiment, where they were looking at the CVs, they were exactly the same. And some of them were titled Heidi and some of them were titled Howard, exact same words. And when people were looking at it, would you want to employ this one or this one? And they were described as being ambitious and competitive. When it was Howard, like, yeah, he sounds like a good guy to have on the team. When it was Heidi, it's like, I don't want to have her, ambitious and competitive. So just recognizing we can be hard on ourselves.

And so I think I have done a lot of work with women, business owners, women leaders, entrepreneurs over the years. And I wrote about this in my prior book called, You've Got This. I've had to say so many times, you've got this, go for it, back yourself, take the risk. Don't wait until you know exactly what you're doing. Do not wait until you are 100 % confident, just do it and give yourself permission to figure it out as you go along.

And I really have to, I don't have to say that as much to men.

John Jantsch (09:46.594)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad we went there. Obviously, that was a little off topic. No, no, no, no.

Margie Warrell (09:49.376)

And that's not critical, by the way, that is not critical of men. I'm often like, just do more of what he does because hey, it's working for him.

John Jantsch (09:58.476)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let me, let me, let me go straight to a topic I hear all the time. I mean, very specific, courage gap. I work with a lot of marketing consultants, marketing agencies. We, do training, we license our methodologies to them. And one of the things I have to work on the most right from the beginning is getting them to understand they need to raise their prices. and that's one that a lot of businesses, you know, they sit in front of a client and they're like, will they

Amy, can I say this? And sometimes I just say, look, just do it. Just like next time you have a sale is called double your price and just say it and see what happens. Like what could happen, right? They could say no, or they, or you got a really high paying client and boy do they struggle.

Margie Warrell (10:43.328)

Do you notice a gender difference?

John Jantsch (10:45.326)

Not as much as you'd think, actually, in that. But again, and we do, mean, we probably, at least 50 % of the folks that join our program are women. And so I don't see that so much, but they all undercharge. And there's really, and I think it's, goes to this, I, I don't even think it's like, will I get rejected? It's, am I worth it? So how do you get through that gap?

Margie Warrell (10:52.448)

Okay, okay, that's good.

Margie Warrell (11:16.8)

Yeah. So am I worth it? think it's such a big question to ask ourselves. And what is my worth? What is my value? And am I going to ask more than the market can bear? And I'm like, well, the only way you find that out is by risking asking for more than the market can bear. And you're like, okay, well, they didn't, you know, they weren't willing to pay 50K. Okay. Well, how's 40? You know, but if you're asking 20, then you're not going to get 30 or 40. So, but I do think being willing to ask

John Jantsch (11:23.416)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:41.134)

Right, right, right.

Margie Warrell (11:45.376)

for what you really think you're worth. And being clear here too, what is this commercially worth to them? Because often we think about, am I worth $30,000? Well, I'm like, man, if the outcomes people get, I do a lot of work with CEOs and C-suite leaders. I'm like, if working with me as a coach could increase your bottom line by half a million bucks or a million or 5 million, or avoid you making a mistake that could cost you

John Jantsch (11:52.716)

Yeah. Right.

Margie Warrell (12:14.97)

way more than that, then man, you know, yeah, that's worth 50k. So I think, you know, making sure you're thinking about not in terms of what you think you're worth, but what is this worth to them too?

John Jantsch (12:18.412)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:24.6)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have used that to really give people a posture too, is really if you're going back and reviewing results and you can actually say, I doubled their business. You know, what am I only asking X for? You know, it really gets a lot easier, you know, with that data. Do you have some habits, you talk about courage muscles. Do you have some habits or daily exercises that you really seem to work to help people build that courage muscle?

Margie Warrell (12:52.092)

Yeah, well, I think firstly is doing more of whatever helps you bring your best bravest self to whatever challenges and whatever, you know, goals that you've got. And I think that can cross over multiple realms. I think of it as physical, mental, emotional and spiritual in terms of what is it that helps you physically have the energy so that you're not exhausted because it's hard to climb a mountain and be brave if you're just exhausted mentally.

Are you focused on the highest leverage things? Or are you overwhelmed? You don't even know which way to look. So that is crucial. Emotionally, what is it that helps you just process through the stress that you've got on and navigate some of those emotions that actually get in the way of you doing the very things you could do? And I think self-doubt is a really big one. And so, for me, I start my day every day with

John Jantsch (13:43.864)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (13:49.042)

some exercise, I read something, I write down what are my number one, my top three to five goals I want to get done today and who is it I need to be today. And for me at a spiritual level, and I say that without being religious or anything like that, just being, what is it that I feel is going to make the biggest mark and it's going to make the biggest impact for those I'm here to serve today?

that aligns with my core values and what gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. And so I think all of those things when we're of regularly doing small little things like those daily habits, whether it's journaling and it's exercising, connecting in with people that can hold you to account and bring out your vest, putting some guard rails around those who don't, those small little things. But a question I often ask myself is what would I do if I was being brave today?

And it's like, you know what? I would reach out to John and I would say, Hey John, Hey, let's have coffee, you know, or Hey John, you know, can I be on your podcast? Not that that's how this came to be, but, but, but put yourself out there. Like ask yourself, what would I do to day if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind because courage is a muscle. have to put in the reps.

John Jantsch (15:04.846)

All I'm going to put you in coaching mode here. I am a salesperson and I'm going to call on what could be the biggest account, you know, of my life. And I'm really afraid of getting rejected. How would you help me reframe?

Margie Warrell (15:19.424)

beautiful one. I would start with principle one in the courage gap. Focus on what you want and not on what you fear. So if you're terrified of being rejected, my gosh, I hope I make this. what if I don't? my gosh, it's gonna be so, I'll feel terrible. But you're putting all your energy into the outcome you don't want. It's like praying for what you don't want to happen. And what you focus on expands. So I would be like one, what does success look like? Visualize

John Jantsch (15:21.901)

You

John Jantsch (15:29.614)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:39.758)

Right, right,

Margie Warrell (15:49.51)

the best possible outcome. I walk out of there, I've landed it. And why is that great? Well, not only because it's good for you, but how is this serve them? So make sure it's not just about you. But how is this in service of something bigger than just you? Yeah, you're great to get the commission, great to get the contract, great for whatever comes through it. But also focus on why is this good, not just for you, but for them? So focus on that win-win and what is your highest intention here? Yeah, you want to get it, but not just for your sake.

John Jantsch (16:00.814)

Alright.

Margie Warrell (16:19.614)

And I think just getting that real clarity of your positive outcome, because if you are not committed and clear in the positive outcome you wanna create, fear is gonna fill the void. And so your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. And if all you're doing is going, I'm terrified, I'm gonna be rejected. I'm like, stop. I would even have someone write it down. Write down what does wild success look like going into this meeting? Write down.

why this is good, not just for you, but why is this good for them? What is the value that you want to bring? Write down, what is the mindset, the belief that I need to operate from? That I have everything it takes, that I'm fully worthy and deserving, and why not me? Because if it's not me, it's going to be John. So why not me? And then ground yourself in the values that define who you want to be and go into that from that place of being worthy, of having integrity.

being brave, of being generous, of being someone that makes others' lives better. And then I would finally say, shift your posture. Take a big deep breath, breathe in courage, breathe out fear, and stand tall, hold your shoulders back, because our physiology impacts our psychology.

John Jantsch (17:36.686)

So there's one of the things I've noticed this first quarter, maybe we're turning the corner, I hope so, but there's a lot of fear based just in unknown right now, geopolitical things, economic things, and that has a tendency to make people sort of freeze. How do get people through the unknown? You know, it's like, well, I don't know what's going to happen, so how do I courageously

Margie Warrell (18:03.936)

Yeah, and when there is a lot of uncertainty, it innately triggers anxiety because we all like certainty. Our brains are wired to make plans. Yeah, to make plans on a future that we can predict with some level of confidence. And right now people go, I don't know how much confidence I have in my prediction abilities, right? The future has got a lot of unknowns. It's very volatile. It's very unpredictable. But here's what I say to people all the time.

John Jantsch (18:12.46)

Hey change, that's the only thing we hate.

Margie Warrell (18:33.318)

always been uncertainty, there will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you're going to get left behind. And you're going to be in the dust of those who are taking action amid the unknowns. But this isn't about being reckless. It's about going, what's my best guess here? How do I manage potential downsides? I'm not betting the family farm on a racehorse, but I'm going, okay, let me take a few steps forward here.

quickly reassess, this working, not working? What am I learning? And shorten those learning cycles. Because as they say in battle, it is safer to run left or right in the fog of battle in gunfire than it is to stand still. Because when you're standing still, you're not getting any information. You're not getting any feedback. But when you're in motion, okay, you know, this is working, this isn't working. You're getting something that's going to put you in a better position.

as there is more certainty over time. So to anyone listening to this and you're holding back, you're like, do I, don't I? It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Sometimes it can be incremental, but what's something you can do today that's moving you forward?

John Jantsch (19:45.12)

Awesome. Well, Margie, I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you'd invite people to connect with you and obviously find out more about the Courage Camp?

Margie Warrell (19:54.258)

Yeah, thanks, John. Well, you can head over to my website, margieworal.com and the courage gap. I have a whole page on there that in a video, et cetera, tells you about it, but you can also get it on Amazon and everywhere good books are sold. And I also encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn and Insta and social media. I'm everywhere under my name.

John Jantsch (20:13.678)

All right, awesome. Again, appreciate you. Stop by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Margie Warrell (20:18.14)

Awesome, thanks John.



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Wednesday, April 9, 2025

Choosing the Right Marketing Practice Growth Program: A Clear Guide to Types, Fit, and Costs

Choosing the Right Marketing Practice Growth Program: A Clear Guide to Types, Fit, and Costs written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

As a marketing agency owner or fractional CMO, you know the importance of staying ahead – not just in tactics, but in how you run and grow your marketing business.

You might be considering a marketing certification for consultants or a fractional CMO training program to sharpen your skills, differentiate your services, and build recurring revenue

But with so many “courses,” “certifications,” and “accelerators” out there, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed. How do you know which program is right for your goals, and what kind of investment makes sense? In this article, we’ll answer those questions with the transparency you deserve. 

The key is finding a marketing agency training program that aligns with your business goals. Whether you’re looking for a quick credential or a comprehensive system to transform your agency, this guide will break down your options in a clear, skimmable way. 

We’ll break down the types of programs available, who they’re best for, and typical cost ranges so you can make an informed choice. Consider this a no-nonsense guide to help you find the best fit for your needs.

In a rush? Below you’ll find a handy comparison of marketing leadership certification types, by format, support, and price. 

TL;DR: What’s the Best Marketing Program for You?

To make it easier to scan, here’s a comparison table summarizing these program types, their formats, support levels, and typical price ranges:

Program Type

Format and Content

Support Level

Typical Pricing

Tactical Skills Courses

Self-paced online videos or short workshops focusing on one skill (SEO, ads, etc.)

Low – mostly DIY learning (maybe forums or basic Q&A)

Free – $500 (many free tool certifications; paid courses usually under a few hundred)

business.com

Entry-Level Foundation Programs

Multi-week online course or group coaching for new freelancers/consultants (covers business setup, pricing, basic marketing)

Moderate – group calls, community of peers, templates for basics

~$500 – $3,000 (depending on program length and mentorship provided)

Multi-Day Intensive Workshops

2–5 day intensive (virtual or in-person) on strategy or specific advanced topic; often interactive

High during event – live coaching, interactive exercises; some offer post-workshop community

~$5,000 – $10,000 (short local classes on low end; premium multi-day bootcamps on high end)

License/Certification Programs

Comprehensive training (often weeks or an intensive kickoff) in a proprietary system; includes frameworks, tools/templates, and ongoing training

High – initial deep-dive training + ongoing support (coaching calls, updates) and private network of fellow licensees

~$5,000 – $15,000 (one-time or annual)

business.com

for full system and certification (significant, but comes with a ready-made methodology and assets)

Partner/Reseller Programs

Training focused on a specific software/platform; you become a certified partner/reseller of that product

Moderate – support from vendor (sales materials, tech support); peer partner forums

Free or low cost to join, but requires investment in the platform (e.g. buying software licenses, which might be $300+/mo or meeting sales quotas to remain active)

Masterminds

Accelerator

Done For You

Ongoing program (6–12+ months, often renewable yearly) with group coaching, mastermind meetings, and sometimes live retreats

Very High – frequent coaching, peer accountability, sometimes 1:1 mentorship; access to an exclusive network of successful peers

$10,000 – $50,000+ per year (significant investment for mature businesses ready to scale)

businessbuildercamp.com

(Note: These price ranges are broad averages. A “course” could be a $20 Udemy special or a $1,000 professional course; a big-name mastermind might run even above the ranges shown. Always check what’s included and the duration when comparing costs.)

As you can see, each type of program serves a different purpose. The best choice depends on the problem you’re trying to solve or the goal you’re aiming for. In the next section, we’ll map common goals to the program type that usually fits best. Find the scenario that sounds like you, and see which option might be your perfect match.

Why Consider a Marketing Leadership Program? (And Do You Really Need One?)

Running a marketing agency or consultancy is hard. You’re juggling client deliverables, trying to stand out from competitors, and aiming to create steady, predictable income. It’s no wonder many agency owners seek out marketing business training or certifications to gain an edge. Here are a few common reasons you might be exploring these programs:

  • You want a proven system – Maybe you feel your agency’s processes are all over the place. A good training program—especially one rooted in a strategy-first can streamline your agency’s operations. These marketing training programs for agencies often include templates, tools, and systems you can use immediately.

  • You want to scale and build recurring revenue – Project work and one-off engagements make it tough to forecast income. The right program can show you how to package retainer offers or ongoing strategy services, creating stable monthly revenue.

  • You need to differentiate your agency – In a crowded market, having a certification or unique methodology can set you apart. It signals to clients that you follow a reputable, established approach (not just winging it).

  • You’re looking for credibility and confidence – Perhaps you’ve primarily executed marketing campaigns and now you’re moving into a leadership role (as an agency CEO or fractional CMO). A marketing leadership certification can boost your confidence and authority to engage higher-value clients as a true strategic advisor.

  • You don’t want to “go it alone” – Being a solo consultant or small agency owner can be isolating. Many programs offer community, coaching, or mentorship, so you can learn from peers and experts instead of figuring everything out by yourself.

Honest insight: You can succeed without any formal certification – plenty of agencies grow through trial and error. But a structured marketing consultant training program can dramatically shortcut your learning curve. Rather than spending years cobbling together processes, you could adopt a ready-made system in a matter of weeks. The result? Saved time, fewer mistakes, and potentially faster growth and ROI.

If any of those reasons resonate with you, it’s worth examining the different marketing agency certification and training options available. Not all programs are created equal – and the most expensive or prestigious option isn’t necessarily the best for your business. In the next sections, we’ll break down the main types of programs and what to expect from each.

Types of Marketing Programs for Consultants & Agencies

Not all marketing training or growth programs are created equal. Some are as simple as a self-paced online course you can knock out in a weekend; others are high-ticket masterminds that require serious commitment (and cash). Here are some common program types you’ll come across, along with what they generally involve:


Tactical Skills Courses for Marketing Consultants:

Focused courses on specific marketing skills (SEO, Google Ads, email marketing, etc.). Usually, on-demand video lessons or workshops teaching you how to do a particular thing. Little to no personalized support beyond maybe a forum or basic Q&A. Great for picking up a new skill or certification quickly. 

Cost: often low (many are free or under a few hundred dollars). Check out Google’s Marketing Trainings  or LinkedIn Learning.


Entry-Level “Business Foundations” Programs:

Introductory programs for freelancers or new solo-agency owners covering business basics. They might teach you how to package your services, set your pricing, find your first clients, and avoid common newbie mistakes. Format can be a short cohort-based course or coaching group. Support is moderate (group calls or an online community). 

Cost: ranges widely from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars depending on depth (some may start around $500 and go up to a few thousand dollars for multi-week coaching).


Multi-Day Intensive Workshops:

Short-term, immersive trainings (often 2–5 days) that dive into strategy and best practices, usually with a live or in-person component. These often include interactive sessions and networking with peers. Support is high during the event (hands-on guidance, hot seats, etc.), and sometimes you get access to a community or follow-up resources for accountability. 

Cost: typically mid-range; many intensives run $5,000–$10,000 depending on the length and prestige of the facilitator (some local workshops might be on the lower end, while well-known strategy bootcamps can be several thousands).


License-Based Certification Programs:

 Comprehensive programs that teach you a proven system or methodology for marketing (often a strategy-first approach) and license you to use it with your clients. These usually include extensive training (sometimes an initial intensive or cohort), libraries of tools and templates, and ongoing support like coaching calls or a private network of fellow certified professionals. It’s like getting a business-in-a-box for your consultancy: you learn the framework, get materials to implement it, and often earn an official certification. 

Cost: higher investment, reflecting the depth – commonly $5,000 to $15,000 for the program business.com (some are one-time fees, others have annual licensing fees or revenue share models). In return, you gain a repeatable framework to deliver services, plus continued resources and community.


Partner/Reseller Programs (Software Ecosystems):

 These programs affiliate you with a software or platform (for example, a CRM, marketing automation tool, or analytics software). They typically involve training on the platform and how to sell or service it, and you might get a “partner” or reseller status. The format often includes online training modules and a partner community; support comes from the vendor (account managers, sales resources, etc.). 

Cost: usually low or no direct fee to join – the trade-off is you’re expected to promote that company’s software. Often your cost is the purchase of the software itself (which you might resell to clients) or meeting a sales quota. In other words, the platform training might be free, but you’ll incur expenses in subscription fees or the time/effort to sell it. This path can create a nice recurring revenue stream (commissions or margin on software subscriptions) if you plan to build your services tightly around a particular tool.


Masterminds & Agency Accelerators:

 High-touch growth programs for established agencies or consultants. These are typically group coaching programs or mastermind groups aimed at scaling up your business (common goals: hitting $1M+ revenue, building your team, improving profitability, etc.). Format often includes regular coaching calls (with a mentor who’s been there, done that), peer mastermind sessions, and sometimes in-person retreats or events. Support level is very high – you get mentorship, accountability, and a network of other high-performing peers. 

Cost: significant – often five-figure annual investments. Many quality agency mastermind programs charge on the order of $10,000 to $50,000 per year (or more for top-tier circles). These are not for beginners; they’re for when you’re ready to pour fuel on the fire and can justify a sizable investment in exchange for potentially big leaps in growth.

Choose the Right Marketing Program Based on Your Business Goals

It’s time to get personal. Think about what you really want to achieve at this stage in your business or career. Are you looking to sharpen a specific skill set? Launch your own consultancy? Completely overhaul your agency’s business model? Different goals call for different solutions. Let’s explore a few typical scenarios and recommend the program type that tends to be the best fit for each, along with what to expect and key pros and cons.

Goal: “I want to get better at a specific skill.”

Scenario: You’re doing consulting or running an agency and want to sharpen one skill – like SEO, Google Ads, or copywriting – without overhauling your business.

Program: Tactical Skills Courses or Certifications

What to Expect: On-demand video lessons or short workshops that teach one topic step by step. Limited support – maybe forums or weekly Q&A.

Investment: Usually free to a few hundred dollars. Time commitment is light (a few hours to a few weeks).

Pros: Affordable, focused, and flexible. Great for filling knowledge gaps fast.

Cons: Narrow scope. Little business guidance or long-term support.

Takeaway: For a single skills upgrade, skip the big programs. A targeted course or certification gets the job done quickly and cheaply.


Goal: “I want to transition from corporate to starting my own consultancy.”

Scenario: You’re leaving a corporate marketing role and want to start your own consultancy or solo agency. You have the marketing skills, but not the business-building know-how.

Program: Entry-Level Foundation Programs

What to Expect: These 4–12 week programs teach basics like packaging services, setting pricing, and finding clients. Includes video lessons, group coaching, templates, and community support.

Investment: ~$500–$3,000 depending on format and coaching.

Pros: Saves time and helps avoid early mistakes. Built-in support and templates fast-track setup.

Cons: Covers broad basics, not deep dives. Quality varies.

Takeaway: If you’re going out on your own, start with a program that teaches business fundamentals – not just marketing.


Goal: “I want to move from project-based work to strategy-led retainers.”

Scenario: You’re doing one-off projects and want to offer long-term strategic services instead.

Program: License-Based Certification Programs

What to Expect: Intensive training in a strategy framework, plus tools and templates for client delivery. Ongoing support through coaching calls and a private network.

Investment: ~$5,000–$15,000, plus possible licensing or renewal fees.

Pros: Provides a proven system and confidence to sell strategy retainers. Includes ongoing support and tools.

Cons: High upfront cost. Requires full commitment to the framework.

Takeaway: To move into strategy-first retainers, invest in a framework that gives you structure, tools, and support to reposition your services.

Related Articles: 

Goal: “I want to scale my agency past $1M in revenue.”

Scenario: You’ve built a stable agency and want help breaking through growth ceilings like hiring, positioning, or systems.

Program: Agency Masterminds or Accelerators

What to Expect: Includes coaching, mastermind calls, strategic playbooks, and live events. Emphasis is on scaling operations, team, and leadership – not tactics.

Investment: ~$10,000–$50,000/year. May require travel and 12-month commitment.

Pros: Offers mentorship and peer accountability. Helps fast-track decisions and avoid trial-and-error.

Cons: Requires time, money, and focus to implement. Fit depends on group quality and stage alignment.

Takeaway: For established agencies ready to scale, a mastermind or accelerator provides the strategic support and peer insight needed to grow faster and smarter.

Related Articles: 

  • Marketing Leadership as a Service (MLaaS)

Goal: “I want to become a fractional CMO with a few high-ticket clients.”

Scenario: You want to serve a small number of clients in a part-time, high-level strategic role – without managing a big team.

Program: Fractional CMO Coaching or Strategy Certification

What to Expect: Focus on packaging your offer, pricing retainer engagements, and leading strategy. Delivered via coaching, peer groups, or system-based certifications.

Investment: ~$5,000–$15,000 for certifications; ~$800–$1,000/month for coaching programs.

Pros: Helps position and sell premium strategic services. Often includes support, templates, and community.

Cons: Not easily scalable beyond your time. May require personal brand building and network leverage.

Takeaway: If your goal is fewer, higher-paying clients and deep strategic work, a focused program will help you build and sell a compelling fractional CMO offer.

Related Articles: 

VIDEO: Are You Ready to Be a Fractional CMO?

Making Your Decision: Which Marketing Training Program is right for you?

Choosing the right program comes down to matching your goal and stage with the program’s purpose:

  • If you have a single skills gap, take a course or get a specific certification (no need to over-invest).
  • If you’re just starting out on your own, build your business fundamentals with an entry-level program or community – getting those basics right will pay off for years.
  • If you need to level up your service offering, especially to incorporate strategy and get recurring revenue, a certification or licensing program that provides a proven system can be a game-changer.
  • If you’re already established and aiming higher, a mastermind/accelerator can provide the mentorship and peer group to break through growth plateaus.
  • And for those pursuing a fractional CMO model, ensure you have a strategic framework and support system in place – whether through a certification or a peer coaching group – to help you successfully navigate that niche.

Finally, remember that no program is a magic bullet. Your results will depend on your effort. The best program in the world won’t help if you don’t do the work, and even a mediocre program can yield value if you actively apply yourself and extract insights. Before plunking down money, get clear on what exactly you want to get out of it, and how you’ll hold yourself accountable to use what you learn.

Choose the Right Marketing Certification for Long-Term Growth

The landscape of marketing certifications and training programs for consultants, agency owners, and fractional CMOs is more diverse and more valuable than ever. Whether you're looking to master a tactical skill, adopt a proven client delivery system, or join a high-level agency mastermind, there’s a training option designed to meet your goals.

As you evaluate your next step, start with clarity: What problem are you trying to solve? The best ROI doesn’t come from the most expensive program, it comes from choosing the right one based on your business stage, growth targets, and service model. From lightweight online marketing courses to full-scale strategy certifications, every program type serves a purpose

Lastly, be strategic with your education investments, just as you are with your business. When in doubt, lean towards programs that emphasize strategy, systems, and support/network – those elements tend to deliver enduring value. (That might be a tiny hint from our perspective, as we strongly believe in strategy-first growth and comprehensive support, given our own experience in this space.)

We hope this breakdown has helped clarify the options and trade-offs. By understanding what’s out there and assessing where you want to go, you’re well on your way to making a smart decision. Here’s to your growth – whether that means mastering a new skill, signing better clients, or hitting that next revenue milestone, the right program is out there waiting to help you make it happen. Good luck, and happy learning!



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SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025

SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025 written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Prasanna Dhungel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Prasanna Dhungel, co-founder and managing partner at Grow By Data. With decades of experience spanning marketing, tech, and SaaS, Prasanna brings sharp insights into the rapidly evolving landscape of search engine optimization—especially as AI transforms how users interact with search.

We explore the future of SEO in the age of Google AI, AI search results, and the zero-click search era. From adapting content strategy to optimizing for online visibility and brand performance, Prasanna breaks down how marketers can stay relevant, rank better, and actually get results in 2025 and beyond.

If you’re still using SEO playbooks from 2015, it’s time for an upgrade. Between AI-powered search results, changing user behaviors, and increased competition for attention, modern SEO demands a smarter, intent-driven, and more brand-conscious approach.

Key Takeaways:

  • SEO Isn’t Dead—It’s Evolved
    With AI overviews and new SERP formats, traditional SEO has shifted. Businesses must rethink both organic search and paid search strategy to remain visible.

  • Zero Clicks Can Still Drive Value
    Even without direct traffic, appearing in AI SEO and Google AI overview results can reinforce brand visibility and improve long-term recognition.

  • Content Needs Purpose
    Brands should focus on content marketing that drives interaction—like quizzes and infographics—especially when top-of-funnel reach isn’t converting.

  • Focus on Keyword Intent
    Prioritize high-intent search terms over broad awareness content. Think about what your audience is trying to solve, not just what they’re curious about.

  • Track Share of Voice
    Traditional rankings aren’t enough. Monitor share of voice across search features like shopping, Reddit snippets, and AI panels to measure content performance more accurately.

  • Reddit Is the New Authority
    Understand where your industry is being discussed and how your brand is represented. Participating in authentic conversations can influence both perception and rankings.

  • Optimize for AI Discovery
    Use structured content like bullet points, product attributes, and schema to increase your chances of being picked up by Google AI and LLMs.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Prasanna Dhungel
  • [00:53] How to Prepare for Changes in Search?
  • [05:06] Is Intent Driven Content the Way Forward?
  • [07:16] What Metrics Should We Be Tracking?
  • [10:39] Best Practices to Show Up in AIO
  • [16:20] Measuring ROI Without Attribution

More About Prasanna Dhungel: 

  • Check out Prasanna Dhungel’s Website
  • Connect with Prasanna Dhungel on LinkedIn

John Jantsch (00:00.676)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Prasanna Dungal. He is nearly two decades of experience building businesses in marketing, tech, healthcare, and SaaS. He's a managing partner by Grow at Grow by Data. He holds a bachelor's degree with honors from Cornell, a master's in engineering from Princeton, and an MBA from Kellogg School of Management. means he paid a lot to get educated. He was born.

and raised in Kathmandu. Probably the first Kathmandu on the show today, but he now resides in Boston. So welcome to the show, Prasanna.

Prasanna Dhungel (00:40.91)

Thank you so much, John, for the nice introduction and I look forward to the conversation.

John Jantsch (00:45.392)

Yes, yes. So we're going to talk basically about SEO today. And I know that's a lot of the work that you do at Grow by Data. A lot of change, know, AI, other things going on, a lot of, I mean, you even see people on LinkedIn saying SEO is dead. So how are you telling people they need to prepare today for changes in traditional search results?

Prasanna Dhungel (01:12.622)

Yeah, that's a very hot, popular topic for folks in source, growth marketing, marketing altogether. You're right. I don't think SEO is dead. I think it has evolved. In fact, it's the era of Google AI and just chats and all of these, in fact, has provided further impetus, in my mind, to storage.

Because the way I like to think about search is you're asking a question and Google is answering today, but then new sources are answering. And you're trying to understand how the answers are being presented, whether it be visually. Like in retail, for example, we like to say that the search result page is increasingly becoming like the Amazon results page, with a lot of product pictures being visible, your Reddit being visible, many times like, you

John Jantsch (02:06.372)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (02:12.236)

over the last year or so, videos and so on. So I think search has evolved. You have to look at paid search and traditional SEO in a new lens. And in fact, it's created, I mean, there's just a lot of interest to capture that. And I think the ones that are really going to win are going to be ahead versus be stuck in his or her old ways. But I think there's a opportunity ahead.

John Jantsch (02:41.486)

Well, the one thing that I think is leading a lot of people to saying, I mean, people are seeing their organic traffic dropping. mean, I think that's reality, but then they're also go to the Google homepage or search page and they see the AI results or AI overview that comes there. And you know, there are many people that they get their answer and off they go. Right. So the so-called zero click, you know, era I think has really got a lot of people worried that, you know, all the effort they spent on producing content.

over the years is now going to go away.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:14.444)

That's a fair concern. And the concern is Google is answering the question right on the sort page versus now letting us click and go into the page. So that remains. The way that we will have to see how that evolves, the next few months or the next year. Some are, in fact, saying it's because of that that

John Jantsch (03:23.544)

Right. Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:42.264)

Folks like us are moving to newer channels to discover, right? But that said, folks are also using it as an opportunity for brand building, which is when you get picked up by these zero click results, you are in fact reminded, like you're seeing a TV ad almost, and you're remembering a brand, and then ultimately you remember that to make a purchase. So...

That's one way that I know brands are thinking about it. But that said, I think just relying on that is challenging. Perhaps top of awareness studies keywords have had fewer clicks, or if any. And then increasingly, know source marketers are focusing on other types of content which require someone to click and go in. But the other way I like to actually show the positive is

If you are visible on Google's zero source clicks, it could also indicate that you could be more friendlier to LLMs. And so you could get picked up by some of the chat engines. And so if you're not getting picked up at all, I think that's a problem. You want to get picked up. can obviously, you can rely on it alone. You have to use other sources, but you had to get picked up so that you also get picked up in the other sources.

John Jantsch (04:54.02)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (05:09.228)

which in fact are almost like zero clicks or just even on the chat. That's how I think about it.

John Jantsch (05:16.494)

So people are, mean, content is, you mentioned content and I want to go to types of content. One of the bits of advice I'm hearing from a lot of folks is this idea of a lot of information content, the how-to type of stuff is really what Google is kind of consuming in the AI overviews. But if somebody is actually searching to solve something or searching for a specific type of...

company, you know, those high intent searches are still there and happening. Would that suggest that we should be moving our content very much to much more intent driven content as opposed to kind of that top of the funnel, you know, show up in search content?

Prasanna Dhungel (06:04.334)

So I think it depends, right? If you believe that the top of the funnel content serves what we are trying to find very well, right? Then it may not be worth being the ninth or the tenth brand out there to capture that. There's diminishing return, right? However, if you feel like your point of view is very strong, then why not create the brand in the first place? It's about brand touch point.

John Jantsch (06:15.172)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:33.166)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (06:33.806)

But assuming that's not the case, you are right. I do think then, you know, trying to go in and capture demand, you know, in the middle of the funnel or lower funnel, you know, and then really trying to draw someone searching from those is also a wise strategy that I know many have followed. Like we were talking to a large financial services client recently, and what they were telling me is, hey, you know, we've, we, I mean, we don't see the ROI of really investing in top of the funnel content anymore.

John Jantsch (06:59.928)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:03.148)

because we're not getting folks to come to our site. And many times I talk about the brand being mentioned on top of the funnel, but sometimes the brand isn't even mentioned. And so it even defeats the purpose of presenting your brand in front of someone. And so these guys were, in fact, creating newer types of content like quizzes or infographics or more deeper content that needs the user to interact to get the answer. And that's where they were gravitating towards. And I'm actually seeing more and more brands do that.

John Jantsch (07:33.028)

Well, are there metrics, new metrics, different metrics that we should be tracking today to really understand how, although this AIO is kind of affecting our search.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:46.232)

We like to use share of voice as a metric to really track a brand's visibility on Google, on Google AIO, on Batesource, what have you. And then we like to dissect it by different lines of business, by different intent, by different geographies, by different languages. So that's the 50,000 foot metric that we use. But that said,

I do agree with you. think a question that you want to begin to answer is, OK, if AI results are a proxy to brand visibility, then how much brand searches are you getting? And is that rising midterm? Is a metric I think you should be tracking?

Like if you're doing the right things, even if you're not getting the click, are people remembering your brand? And not just the brand term, but brand plus. And then there may be a time lag. For example, you know, when I purchase something, it might be a few weeks out, it might be a few months out. Or am I seeing, you know, so one way to do this would be, you know, am I visible in these results, zero click results? And is that rising? And then after a few weeks out or so,

Is the amount of brand searches rising and is that compounding? I I think that's one way I've known that brands are tracking that.

John Jantsch (09:19.856)

So break down share a voice just at, I'm sure that every client's different, but you know, essentially how do you start measuring share a voice?

Prasanna Dhungel (09:26.958)

Sure, so I like to give the example of running shoes, right? So imagine I am searching for running shoes, running shoes, men's, women's, and so on. So when you search for that keyword or a group of keywords, you want to be searching not just once, but over time, across different geographies, across different devices, across different times of the day, so you have enough sample.

And what you have to do is, how often is your brand mentioned on the search page? So for example, on shopping ads, how often is Nike visible versus Adidas or Hoka? On your classic blue links, how often is Nike visible? On virtual listings, which is a free product listing from Google, how often is it? So if you imagine real estate on the page and there's 1,000 spots in there,

and the spots are consumed by videos, shopping, and organic, and even Reddit and so on. How often is Nike's domain visible? Or Nike mentioned, you just kind of say it's visible maybe 300 times over your sample size. Then we like to say you have a 30 % share of voice. And you might care to understand how that varies by Spanish versus English.

New York versus Toronto and so on. So you slice it but at the highest level it's how often are you visible in that real state.

John Jantsch (11:01.934)

So in this AI overview world, the zero click world, are there things that you are helping brands try to understand? Like, obviously we want to show up there, but is there an intentional approach or are there best practices to make sure that your brand is showing up there? Or is it simply a matter of if you're showing up high in search anyway, for some of those terms, you're probably going to show up in the results? Or is there a way to get your content intentionally to show up in

the AI overviews.

Prasanna Dhungel (11:32.856)

Sure. So what we do is we dissect what are the sorb elements visible within AIO, right? So you have, like in retail, you have maps sometimes show up on the AIO results. Sometimes you have a description. Sometimes you have the product that shows up, you know, like you're trying to discover products. So the first thing to do is really try to understand, deconstruct AIO, what exactly is visible by different types of source terms. You know, so sometimes if you are

John Jantsch (11:39.236)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (12:02.254)

trying to, if you source for a bottom of the funnel type of a question, if AIO does show up, it's a different mix versus on the top. So that's one. The second is we look at whose brand is being mentioned on each of these sort elements. Like for example, who is getting the free listings on running shoes? Which brand is it? And then we try to deconstruct, OK, the why.

And what we've seen is there's a few elements to getting picked up on AIO. Sometimes the way the content is written, you know, in bullet forms versus free flow text, we've seen that that gets picked up. Many times for retail, we've seen that inclusion of attributes like GTIN, you know, and rich product attributes on the PDB page also helps you get picked up. Sometimes other attributes like reviews and ratings and pricing.

John Jantsch (12:51.556)

you

Prasanna Dhungel (13:00.61)

These other product dimensions, if it's rich, then it gets picked up. So at a high level, think for your traditional text, having bullet forms and making it easier, understandable, having questions in there, not long content, that has gotten picked up, number one. For retail, it's really rich product attributes on the PDP page. And making sure that if you're not getting rejected by Google Merchant Center,

or if you're not getting flagged by Google Merchant Center, then it's likely to get linked. And then the classic techniques of being cited by credible sources, those are other signals we've seen.

John Jantsch (13:44.11)

So we've been talking a lot about the AI overviews, but if you scroll down pretty much any search these days, scroll down a little bit, some of the top organic results are being delivered from Reddit. And so, you know, know a lot of people are starting to pay attention to that and go, well, how do I get my stuff to rank on Reddit? What are you telling clients about their participation in Reddit? It is much different than say Facebook and LinkedIn in terms of the ecosystem there and the culture there.

so how are you advising folks to, to hopefully get some of their content or their, their answers, whatever it might be to show in Reddit.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:23.438)

Sure. we were, I'll give you a live example. We were working with a large shoe company and the first question they were asking us is, is Reddit visible on the sorp for the questions that I, for the queries that I care to. And so we helped them understand how, what questions Reddit was visible on. And number two, we went into Reddit and then what we helped them understand is how they are portrayed.

John Jantsch (14:38.244)

Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:52.75)

you know, to folks like us, like, you know, if you're trying to source for running shoes, who is very active, like who is active on Reddit? Is it Nike? Is it, you Hoka? Is it Adidas? And then how large of a community that Reddit thread has for say Nike running shoes or Nike running shoes. And so what we tell clients is first of all, try to understand where Reddit is visible. Number two, really try to understand your

your Reddit thread versus your competitors Reddit thread and is it one that you have a community manager running or is it just organic? And then the other thing we do is we've actually helped clients answer a bunch of questions on Reddit. One is we find that a lot of people are talking about pricing on Reddit. What does that sentiment look like? What does product quality look like?

John Jantsch (15:45.572)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (15:51.778)

you know, and then how people are saying good or bad things about it. And so by giving that visibility, what we recommend, what we recommended to this client is you, I mean, they didn't have a community manager and we said, you know, it's an increasing channel. know, you get a lot of visibility. People are going there to understand what they like about your product. They're giving ideas. And so we were recommending that they have a community manager who constantly analyzes and stays on top of it.

and then curates the experience. So you cannot just say whatever, but that said, remaining passive is also not a good idea. You want to have a point of view and sometimes there might be an opportunity to run an ad. When someone has a concern about the brand, then advertisement is a source of being on top of those that are looking at your brand. So you also have a strong point.

So these are some of the techniques that we have been telling clients.

John Jantsch (16:51.982)

So what kind of pushback are you getting on? And this is always the case, but we went through a period there where everybody was leaning on attribution. Like if you can't prove that this got me a customer, then I don't want to pay for it. And now we're telling people you've got to be here and here and here. some of these places, a community manager, for example, is not a salesperson, right? They're not going to create conversions. So how are you helping people kind of

Prasanna Dhungel (17:15.032)

Yes.

John Jantsch (17:21.276)

work through that ROI conversation when in some ways we're talking about participating and engaging in ways that you can't measure.

Prasanna Dhungel (17:31.34)

Right, so your question is, how are we helping clients think through the question of, if I put a dollar and the returns aren't obvious, like a community manager, how should they think about it? And so the way we like to describe this is, if you use search as a proxy, then there is a certain amount of, the search volume is a proxy on demand for your service or product.

John Jantsch (17:41.08)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:00.788)

And so, know, if what you're being exposed to is a lot of Reddit in there, right. And then a certain percentage of them click through, you know, your classic CTR model there and they go in and it's a highly uncurated, poor experience. Then you're losing, right? So it sometimes is defense and sometimes it's offense. So offense could be, you you put in a dollar and you get $3 back. Okay. But then.

defense is if you don't have someone in there, it's almost like insurance, right? If you don't have a community manager, then your brand perception could be tarnished. And if you're Rolex, as an example, and someone thrashes your band, and next year you want to raise prices, people are not going to pay $10,000. They actually already have an impression that Rolex is probably not $10,000, and you might want to get $1,000.

John Jantsch (18:32.196)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.832)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:58.774)

And the other part, in my mind, John, is think about the generation that is getting into Reddit. Some of the brands we work with, they have a slightly more older demographic. And they're trying to recruit younger demographics to, in fact, purchase from them. And the younger demographic are going into these communities. And the first impression they have, if there is no impression or if the impression is bad, then you are

John Jantsch (19:11.533)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:20.483)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (19:28.294)

not going to get them on board. So I like to even say that brands have begun to think of this investment almost as defensive. It's like a leaky funnel, right? If you don't yet go to Home Depot and buy something to fix your faucet, then you'll just keep leaking. That's also a way that brands have in fact approached that question.

John Jantsch (19:30.232)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:39.736)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:49.412)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense.

John Jantsch (19:54.584)

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, lots of changes, lots going on. I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you'd invite people to connect with you and learn more about the work that you're doing there?

Prasanna Dhungel (20:05.462)

Yeah, absolutely. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, Prasanna Dhungyal. Or you can go to our website, growbydata.com, and you'll find me on the executive team. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, PD277. Happy to be helpful. And this is a fast-changing work area and would love to be helpful and supportive.

John Jantsch (20:30.116)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Prasanna Dhungel (20:34.656)

Absolutely. Thank you so much,



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