The Franchise Playbook: Insider Tips for First-Time Buyers

The Franchise Playbook: Insider Tips for First-Time Buyers written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Alex Smereczniak

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Alex Smereczniak, serial entrepreneur and CEO of Franzy, a platform transforming franchise discovery and acquisition. Alex has a deep understanding of franchise business strategy, from brand messaging to customer insights, and he shares insider tips on how first-time buyers can successfully navigate the franchise landscape.

During our conversation, Alex revealed the raw truths about franchise ownership, the emotional triggers that drive investment decisions, and how effective marketing research can help buyers identify the right opportunities. He also shed light on the importance of business strategy, customer feedback, and executive insights in building a profitable, scalable franchise.

Alex’s expertise in franchise strategy and customer feedback makes this episode a must-listen for anyone considering franchise ownership. Whether you’re looking for marketing solutions or insights into brand strategy, this conversation provides invaluable guidance on making the right investment.

Key Takeaways:

• Franchising Is More Than Fast Food: Many people associate franchises with McDonald’s, but the industry extends to home services, fitness, B2B marketing solutions, and beyond.
• Data-Driven Decision Making: Leveraging customer insights and executive feedback can significantly improve success rates in franchising.
• The Financial Reality: While franchising offers a lower-risk business model, profitability depends on location, operations, and marketing innovation.
• Red Flags to Avoid: Be cautious of misleading brand messaging, exaggerated earnings claims, and lack of transparency in marketing research.
• The Role of Emotional Triggers in Buying a Franchise: Personal goals, lifestyle aspirations, and long-term business strategy should align with the franchise choice.

Chapters:

[01:03] Franchising History
[02:06] Franchise vs. Independent Business
[03:28] Is Franchising Secure?
[05:31] Alex’s Franchise Journey & Franzy
[07:14] Who Invests in Franchises?
[08:34] Franchising is Easier Than You Think
[09:29] Keys to a Profitable Franchise
[14:11] How Franzy Supports Franchising
[17:57] Franchise Red Flags
[19:15] Getting Started with Franzy

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.941)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Alex Smereczniak. Nailed that, I? He's a serial entrepreneur and the co-founder and CEO of Fransi, a platform revolutionizing franchise discovery and acquisition. They empower aspiring entrepreneurs with transparency, support, and the tools to find the right franchise opportunity. He's also the co-founder and former CEO of

Alex Smereczniak (00:10.844)

yeah.

John Jantsch (00:29.901)

to you laundry and Laundro lab where he helped build and scale a successful venture backed laundry delivery service and it's franchise arm as well. So he continues to serve on both boards of those companies. So Alex, welcome to the duct tape marketing podcast.

Alex Smereczniak (00:45.646)

Thanks, John. I'm excited to be on with you today and look forward to talking to all things franchising and how people can get into the wonderful, wacky world of it.

John Jantsch (00:55.607)

Yeah, you know, it's interesting franchises. I think a lot of people think McDonald's White Castle's, you know, some of the really early like food franchises. But in looking at the model, you know, it's probably been around since the Middle Ages. You know, when, when some king would say, okay, you over there, you get to collect taxes in this region and you submit some of it back to me and you, you know, you get an exclusive on that region. You know, again, I

half kidding, half not kidding, but I mean, it's really a model that's been around for the ages, hasn't it?

Alex Smereczniak (01:29.12)

It has been around forever and it's more pervasive and I think our everyday lives and most people realize to your point, think McDonald's, Subway, you don't think about the moving company that helped you move is probably a franchise or the painting company. It is 8 % of our country's GDP is produced from the franchise industry and it spans food, hotels, home services, fitness.

John Jantsch (01:35.351)

Yeah. Yeah.

Right, right, Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (01:54.618)

Coffee, mean you entertainment you name it. There's probably a franchise model around it

John Jantsch (01:59.917)

Well, yeah, I was going to say the models become so successful that there's probably not a service where somebody hasn't at least tried, you know, to get it going. Right. I mean, because I think a lot of people, you know, see the successful model. so, so let's go there for a minute. You know, is there an inherent advantage, theoretically to a franchise as opposed to somebody just kind of figuring it out on their own.

Alex Smereczniak (02:24.058)

Yeah, so I actually, you know, I've done a lot of research on franchising as a whole and two metrics that have jumped out to me before is that, you know, the two year success rate of a franchise business is about 76%. Oh, sorry, sorry. It's 92 % for the two year success rate for franchising 85 for the five year success rate. That is opposed to 76 % for the two year success rate for just an independent business.

a whopping 50 % success rate after five years. if you look at the two numbers I just shared, 85 % success for franchise businesses after five years, 50 for independent businesses after five years, that's the answer right there. A lot of people get into franchising because it's de-risked. It gives people, I don't want to say a safety net, but you're working with a community of other people around you that are also building their businesses with you, and then a corporate parent that

John Jantsch (03:06.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (03:19.352)

has proven the model, has marketing resources, has training resources, has tech resources, et cetera, to isolate you to an extent and be valuable.

John Jantsch (03:28.899)

So when the concept or the model itself was really blowing up, probably in the seventies or eighties or so, there were a lot of issues that had the FTC step in. A lot of people were setting up Ponzi schemes. They were taking a hundred thousand dollars from somebody and then the people no support or nothing, what was promised. How would you say the state of sort of regulating that industry has evolved and is it safer?

certainly than it was 50 years ago.

Alex Smereczniak (03:59.802)

There's two sides to that coin on the regulation around the brand themselves to prevent snake oil salesmen from saying, hey, this is the get rich quick in this whatever concept. The regulation has done a good job there. So every brand has to have what's called an FDD. It's called a franchise disclosure document. And it is a 100 to 200 page onerous legal document that covers bankruptcy, litigation, team experience.

John Jantsch (04:10.147)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (04:22.221)

Yes.

Alex Smereczniak (04:27.29)

investment costs, audited financials. mean, it has everything in it and every brand is required to have that. So I, you know, when we got into franchising, was happy to find that the other side of that coin where there still needs to be more regulation is how franchises are sold and bought today. And so a lot of people can go to a McDonald's and fill out the contact form. They can find something, you know, from a neighbor who might be franchising a concept word of mouth.

A lot of people work through business brokers, franchise brokers, and this part is still very much the Wild West, meaning, if you think about buying a house, your real estate agent had to get licensure, they had to go through training and courses, and they also disclose to you what their commission is going to be. There is zero of that for business brokers, not just in franchising. Any business broker doesn't need to be licensed. You and I could go be business brokers today.

John Jantsch (04:56.312)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:18.263)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (05:18.99)

And we also don't have to disclose what percent fee we're taking and how we're making money. So there's also this kind of misalignment to a degree that's happening there, but that's changing. Regulation is coming there as well that I think will protect your average consumer and business buyer here in the near future.

John Jantsch (05:35.799)

What would you say you, you started a couple other businesses you franchised or at least participated in franchising those other, did you learn a lot along the way that you've now brought to Frenzy?

Alex Smereczniak (05:48.27)

Yeah, honestly, if I hadn't had the experience previously building a franchise or essentially being my own franchisee running multiple laundromats, I wouldn't have even had the idea for Franzi. was getting into the franchise world that made me realize, Hey, there's a big gap here and there's not a lot of alignment between the brand, brokers, prospects, et cetera. There's not a good database or set of tools for people to find the right concept for themselves. so.

Part the reason I transitioned out of my last business was to be able to go start this one. It was just a huge gap. It's kind of like what Zillow did for the real estate market before you had to go through a real estate agent. wasn't a way to shop online or look at your dream home or your vacation home. And with Frenzy, we're trying to do exactly that. Be the Zillow for franchising where you can go on your computer at work or go on your computer late at night and say, I'm in Atlanta. I've got a hundred K to invest.

What can I afford? Here's my operational experience. Here are my goals for my family and myself. What are the top five or 10 brands recommended for me based on this information? And that's exactly what we've built with Franzi is you go in, you enter that information and we recommend brands for you. You can deny them or approve them and go further down the conversation with them. And then we facilitate that introduction along with a number of other tools that first time or any business buyer needs.

entity formation, lending, finding the right CPA, etc. We help with all those pieces as well.

John Jantsch (07:13.72)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19.271)

Would you say that there is, and maybe you don't have enough experience to answer this question, but would you say there's a distinct different profile of a buyer of a franchise as opposed to somebody who's just going to go out there and start a business?

Alex Smereczniak (07:32.154)

It's kind of a cop out answer, but it depends. I just talked to a number of entrepreneurship through acquisition folks. It's a big trend right now where people are either getting a sponsor to back them to go buy an established business where it's someone retiring that wants to sell. But some of those ETA folks are looking at buying up the family that owns five Jimmy Johns and wants to sell.

John Jantsch (07:41.677)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:55.191)

Yeah, sure.

Alex Smereczniak (07:57.018)

So you had an ETA person, they're looking at both independent businesses and franchises as a potential solution. You also have within franchising the large private equity groups that own 50 Jimmy Johns and 20 McDonald's and they're massive. But you also have the vice president of a bank who's in his forties and hates his job and wants to leave and go be his own boss. And he also becomes a McDonald's franchisee. so your ideal customer profiles, your ICPs vary pretty widely.

John Jantsch (08:08.098)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.504)

Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (08:26.99)

they fall pretty solidly into three buckets. It's your private equity groups, it's your nine to five veteran that wants to get out, or it's your family that's built up a nice business and they're adding their sixth, seventh, eighth location.

John Jantsch (08:32.301)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:43.427)

I guess the part of that question was, know, somebody learns how to be a plumber and they start a plumbing business. lot of franchisees owners, mean, they don't know a thing about the actual business. Like they've never run a restaurant, right? You know, they've never run a gym, but they like the idea of not really needing to know that because the system's figured out. I mean, is that a fair statement?

Alex Smereczniak (09:06.714)

Yeah, I franchising is a lot more accessible. It goes back to the success rates I mentioned earlier. There's a reason it's almost double. You know, the success rate is almost double for those getting into franchises versus going at it alone. You have training wheels essentially in franchising, but eventually when you start going from one unit to two to two to five, five to 10 training wheels are off and you're, booking it downhill. You got some momentum behind you and you know what you're doing at that point, but

John Jantsch (09:30.413)

Hehehe

Alex Smereczniak (09:33.55)

You had to cut your teeth at some point, just like anything. You got to learn those first year or two and get yourself in the business.

John Jantsch (09:39.693)

So talk a little bit about, and again, maybe you haven't owned enough franchises to have this opinion, but talk a little bit about the profitability or the ability to really make money in a franchise. One of the knocks you sometimes hear, whether it's true or not, is that there are people owning a couple of subways and not making as much as they would in a regular job, for example. Is that?

Is that a true statement? You really need to actually be able to scale this thing to a certain point or is that more the nature of picking the right franchise?

Alex Smereczniak (10:16.888)

Yeah, so think it depends on a number of things. Your individual goal, if it's a retail business, the location you decide on in the market around it, how competitive is it? How much of a need is this? A lot of it depends on the operator. You could have the best business in the world, but if you're not there at all, you only show up once a month and you're not checking in on things, it's going to be run poorly. So like any other business, the franchise still requires thoughtfulness around the location, being a good operator, et cetera.

to be more pointed. There is a franchise for just about every kind of goal and need. There's one that you can be a basically buy yourself a job, get a bucket and a mop. A lot of people don't realize UPS is a franchise where you franchise the route, but you are the delivery driver. And some people like that because they're buying themselves a job, but they also have the freedom and the flexibility of being an owner, even though they might only be profited.

John Jantsch (10:57.95)

yeah. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (11:12.356)

profiting 40 to 100K a year. That's fine. They just like that they report to themselves essentially.

John Jantsch (11:17.823)

Yeah, plus they don't have to depend on dozens of teenagers actually running the store,

Alex Smereczniak (11:22.618)

So you've got, you've got things from the delivery driver to, you know, a commercial cleaning business all the way up to you're building a $4 million sky zone, you know, in indoor trampoline park and the EBITDA, the profit is substantially higher, you know, half a million plus. There is such, that's what's so great about franchising is it's so accessible and there's something at each end of the spectrum and each range, each risk tolerance, each goal.

John Jantsch (11:36.673)

Right.

John Jantsch (11:51.915)

Are there, are there some, hot kind of categories right now?

Alex Smereczniak (11:57.946)

Yeah. So home services is really big right now because it's, really accessible. You don't need to build this multimillion dollar location. You also don't have to be as right about the location because you have this huge territory. And so if you're doing gutter cleaning or window cleaning, or, um, there was an interesting one I saw the other day, you know, it's, it's a Christmas decorations or the franchise for, and so it's, you have some of these things that are more accessible, less upfront costs and investment.

John Jantsch (12:20.671)

Okay, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (12:27.242)

but still can generate pretty substantial revenues and profit to the point where it could replace a lot of people's annual salaries. And now again, it's your thing, it's your business, you have more flexibility and freedom and more fulfilling.

John Jantsch (12:34.232)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:41.175)

Yeah, it's interesting too, in home services, you know, used to be you'd call a remodeler or handyman and they'd come out and look at what you needed. But now it's like, my garage door, I need that fixed. You know, here's somebody that puts in 75 garage doors, you know, every week, you know, I'm going to call them. And so it's, you see the, especially the home services getting really, really nichey, don't you?

Alex Smereczniak (13:01.402)

Yeah, that's one of my favorite ones. You actually just mentioned is there's a concept called the garage Kings. It's a franchise and Damon, Damon John, the guy from shark tank actually use them unintentionally and did his own Instagram reel of it because he just was so blown away by the quality of the service. But to your point, it's cause garage Kings only does garage. They epoxy, epoxy the floors. put up shelving and storage.

John Jantsch (13:10.115)

Sure.

Alex Smereczniak (13:24.856)

And it's a phenomenal business. You don't need a ton of equipment and the average territory does over a million dollars a year in revenue and it's a franchise.

John Jantsch (13:31.543)

Yeah. So talk a little bit about kind of your approach and what, you know, if somebody's out there looking, thinking I want to do this, you know, what role do you fill for that person that's kind of, cause just as we've talked about, I mean, it's, know, the, if you just went out there and typed in franchise, you know, it's going to be like, okay, let's start with 6 billion, you know, ideas. So, so kind of where do you, where do you fit in the search?

Alex Smereczniak (13:56.282)

Yeah.

Yep. we're, we're, uh, you know, the way that we describe ourselves as reeducation. So if you're a first timer franchising one-on-one, what is an FDD? What is a franchise disclosure document? What are the terms I should be familiar with? And then what should I be thinking about as far as affordability, time commitment, what's available? You know, those key buckets. We also are a resource for people that are buying their 10th business or that private equity group that I mentioned that might be looking for the right concept to go buy 20 of.

And so we do, we have tools for kind of each one of those buckets, but let's follow that person through the journey of, don't know what I'm doing, know, what the hell I'm doing. So we help with the education and getting people comfortable. Once you come to Franzy, we also start to help you get pre-qualified with lenders that we've partnered with. So right away, you know, just like buying a house or buying a car, lot of these, a lot of these sites tell you that now. And so it helps refine your search immediately. There's 4,000 brands in the United States. Well, once you fill out your pre-qual,

John Jantsch (14:47.585)

Yeah, here's what I can afford. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (14:57.486)

Well, now here's a thousand that you can financially afford. All right. What areas are you looking in? All right. Here's 300 that are available. You see where this is going to goes from 4,000 to a thousand to 300. And then we start to ask a lot of questions about what's your, what are your family's goals? What's your risk tolerance? What's your operational experience? And then what are your hobbies and interests so that we actually, you know, we find a business that resonates with you and that you like. By the time we do all of that and we're using AI to do this, there's also coaching with franchise experts on our team that you can speak with.

By the time you have those conversations and you fill out these surveys, we've got it down to a pretty high degree of confidence that here's this five brand recommendation for you. One of these five brands is going to be a perfect fit. And if it's not, we've got another couple hundred that we've narrowed it down to that we can continue to feed and teach our model to make sure that this is the absolute best business for John from those four factors I mentioned. It satisfies his risk tolerance. We know he can afford it. We know it's available in his area.

and it fits his goals and his interests.

John Jantsch (15:58.819)

I'm curious, what's the, and it probably varies a little bit, but what's the process from, okay, you've given me those five brands to like somebody actually starting a business once they decide. mean, is that a year long process?

Alex Smereczniak (16:12.418)

It depends on the type of business. So with Franzy as an example, let's say we get to the five and you're excited about three of them. So we'll introduce you to those three. have relationships with all these brands. you start to go through their process and build a rapport with them. They're interviewing you to make sure you'd be a good franchisee as part of their system and vice versa. You're interviewing them to make sure that this is a 10 year commitment you want to make and an investment of time and money that you want to make. And so let's say.

You narrow it down to one, you love it, you're married to this idea, you want to become a franchisee and they feel the same way. You sign a franchise agreement. Well, sorry, let me back up a second. As soon as you start matching with a brand and you have that first conversation, the average sales cycle is 90 to 120 days. There's a lot of calls back and forth. You eventually fly to the headquarters to see a day in the life and meet the team. That's 60 to 90 days.

John Jantsch (16:55.971)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (17:03.63)

From there, if it's a retail business, can definitely expect 12-ish months because you have to find a site, do build out. There's a lot more to a retail business. If it's a home services business, which is why they're so hot right now, is you can get a truck and do some training and you're locked and loaded in two months, baby. Let's go.

John Jantsch (17:09.133)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:15.329)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, get a get a truck and get it wrapped. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As and I'm sure you've seen all these and so you advise some people, but I'm guessing you probably only work with reputable folks. But are there some red flags that somebody should that you would tell people, hey, if they're telling you this?

Alex Smereczniak (17:39.514)

Yeah, anyone that's promising you're going to get rich. Be very wary of that because again, at end of the day, you're running a business. It's still your business and no one can guarantee that you're going to be successful. Even yourself. I mean, you have to get the right side. You got to be a good operator. All the things we mentioned. So look for people promising things. You got to be careful of that. Look for stores closing. And so we have tons of data over the last five, five years on Franzy. So if you see a trend of, hey, they opened 300 stores and then 50 shut down and they only opened a net new, you know, 10 over that.

John Jantsch (17:42.497)

Yeah, right. Right.

John Jantsch (17:47.555)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:00.748)

right, yeah yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (18:09.53)

What's going on here? You know, that's the question you should be asking. Any litigation, the obvious one is litigation or bankruptcy. And then checking the item 19 is critical. That's where the audited financials are in the FDD. If you see, you know, if a business is doing well, they're going to want to brag about it, right? They're going to want to show the financials and look at our stores, make a ton of money. And so could you, if they're hiding it or they're doing weird adjustments and, adjusted

John Jantsch (18:14.902)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:24.493)

Huh.

John Jantsch (18:33.677)

Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (18:38.774)

EBITDA and adjusted revenue and goofy things like that. That's a flag to at least press on and double click on.

John Jantsch (18:39.98)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:47.139)

So how does the process with you? mean, is it fairly much an online tool? I know you have a couple like the Fit Score and the Connect Tool. Is that all something you just go to your website, create an account, and kind of start doing on their own?

Alex Smereczniak (19:03.822)

Yeah, so the whole goal of Franzy is going to make this really accessible to anyone. And so you create an account, free to do, it's free for anyone using our site all the way through. We make money if an individual buys a franchise, then the franchisor pays us kind of like a real estate agent. But we'll help you through finding the right fit, which is part of AI powered, part of the product we've built. We help you with pre-qualification.

John Jantsch (19:23.426)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (19:32.014)

We help you with all the data and the research that you need to make a confident decision. And then we also do have expert coaches on our team, people that have owned franchise businesses or that were franchisors that will talk you through any hesitations, questions, concerns that you have to get you familiar with everything you need to be successful. The really cool part about what we do is once we introduce you to brands that we've vetted,

John Jantsch (19:48.824)

Nice.

Alex Smereczniak (19:58.21)

We become a virtual coach in your corner. So part of the sales process is you have this overview call, a unit economics call, stuff that's kind of intimidating if it's your first time. And even if it's not, it's a lot of work and you want a sounding board. So we've built all these resources to say, Hey, John, you have an overview call coming up. Here's what to expect and some pre-read materials to prepare yourself. And also here's some curated questions we recommend you ask on that call so that you're making sure you're addressing your risk, your hesitations and other things.

that you expressed to us during this whole onboarding process. And then you can talk to us as a person as well that whole time whenever you want. A long answer, but soup to nuts, research, coaching, your qualification and matching you with the right fit brand.

John Jantsch (20:36.14)

Awesome.

John Jantsch (20:44.043)

Yeah. Well, and I think one of the real advantages, while obviously you want somebody to move forward because that's how you get paid, you don't really care which one they move forward with. So you're not really pushing one horse or another, you?

Alex Smereczniak (20:56.122)

I'm glad you brought that up because it's one of the reasons we started this is a lot of folks that have gone through, you brokers, other channels don't realize they're being presented only brands that have agreed to pay to play in the background. We have this inventory of thousands. We're, your point, we're indifferent. Our success fee is a flat dollar amount versus a percent of the commission. As you can imagine, if one brand has a, you an $80,000 franchise, and one has 40,000 and I'm paid a percentage of that.

John Jantsch (21:23.181)

Right, yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Alex Smereczniak (21:23.706)

People are inherently going to try to push you to the 80, even though it might not be in your best interest. So we cut that out of the model entirely and said, we don't care if it's 80 or 40, we get paid X. So we really want to find the right fit for John because ultimately that's going to cause him to buy the second one, the third one, increase his chance of success, tell his friends to check out Franzy, et cetera. It's in everyone's best interest if we all get a line.

John Jantsch (21:44.907)

Awesome. there somewhere, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you'd send people to connect with you and learn more? know we've talked about Franzy, FRNZY.com. Anywhere else you want to send people?

Alex Smereczniak (22:01.166)

No, think Franzy is the best place to get started. then if you can, if my complicated last name shows up, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to answer anyone's franchise related questions or help them in any way that I can as they think about becoming an entrepreneur, buying a business, or just curious about franchise things in general.

John Jantsch (22:17.219)

And did I get close on your last name?

Alex Smereczniak (22:20.314)

So you were close on like the actual authentic pronunciation. The Americanized is Smrznak. The Polish version is Smiercznek, which is closer to what you said.

John Jantsch (22:26.467)

Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to get that neck in there, know, part, but I have an Austrian name that has a lot of consonants at the end of it. So I'm very sensitive to trying to get people's names right. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Alex Smereczniak (22:45.402)

Well, I appreciate it. You were close.

Alex Smereczniak (22:54.754)

Yep, thanks again, John.

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How to Adapt, Thrive, and Stay Human in an AI-Driven World

How to Adapt, Thrive, and Stay Human in an AI-Driven World written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, we dive into the evolving world of marketing in 2025, where artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how businesses operate. The discussion highlights the importance of balancing cutting-edge AI tools with timeless human elements like emotional intelligence (EI) and authentic connection. As marketing trends accelerate and marketing tools multiply, the challenge lies in leveraging these advancements strategically while staying true to your brand voice and fostering personalization.

AI in marketing has the power to disrupt industries, but as discussed, it’s critical to focus on strategic marketing and storytelling to maintain authenticity. The conversation also explores hyper-personalization, marketing automation, and how businesses can navigate the fast-paced evolution of marketing tools while creating meaningful relationships with their customers.

By blending cutting-edge AI with timeless human values, businesses can adapt, thrive, and stay human in an AI-driven world. As marketing evolves, success will depend on leveraging personalization, EI, and a clear brand voice to cut through the noise.

Key Takeaways:

• Strategy Before Technology
  Without a solid marketing strategy, shiny new AI tools can lead to faster failure. Focus on aligning AI applications with your business goals to maximize impact.
• The Role of Emotional Intelligence (EI)
  As AI democratizes intelligence, EI becomes a key differentiator. Skills like empathy, communication, and contextual understanding are more important than ever in strategic marketing.
• The Power of Storytelling in Marketing
  Storytelling remains a vital way to humanize your brand and connect with audiences. AI can’t replicate personal experiences, making your authentic stories a unique advantage.
• Brand Voice and Personalization
  Define and maintain your brand voice to stand out in an AI-saturated landscape. Use AI-driven hyper-personalization to deliver tailored messages that resonate with your audience.
• Navigating AI Disruption
  AI is transforming marketing trends and tools across content creation, design, and personalized sales. However, businesses that prioritize the human element in marketing will create stronger, more authentic connections.

Chapters:

[01:15] AI vs Previous Tech Excitement
[03:25] Approaching AI Strategically
[05:02] Adopting the Right Mindset Around AI
[10:47] The Human Element Stands Out
[13:04] Importance of Storytelling for Your Brand
[13:49] AI’s Impact on Marketing
[16:08] The Future of Personalization
[18:55] Marketing Focus for 2025

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.686)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and I think I'm kind of the guest today because my host today is Sarah Ney, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and she's gonna, we're just gonna have a conversation about some of the things going on in the world of marketing. I've said before, I think 2025 is going to be a year to remember in terms of change. I'll say that next year too, I bet.

But I think the pace of change that I think we're seeing right now, just in the first couple of weeks of January, it's kind of flooring me. And I think it's going to be tough to keep up. So strap in, hang on, and here we go, sir.

Sara Nay (00:40.285)

And we were just having a discussion with some of our team about how we're always, you know, looked at it, staying in top of marketing trends. And that's been the position of duct tape marketing for a while. And right now we feel like we're sprinting more than we have before with all the advancements. And that's a lot of what we're going to talk about today. So thanks for letting me steal the host seat. I want to start with a question. Sure.

John Jantsch (00:46.574)

You

John Jantsch (00:58.368)

Yeah. Well, I can, throw in a joke, a lame joke. So R and D now stands for run and dash.

Sara Nay (01:03.805)

I it. Well, I'm going to start with a question. You've been in the game, the marketing game for quite some time now. So you were involved when websites, everyone started building websites and getting online. And also when social media became a thing and everyone was talking about how that's going to change the whole entire industry. And so right now, obviously we're going through a lot of conversation and discussion and excitement around AI and everything that's evolving there. So I'm curious, how does right now feel the same?

than some of those different excitement phases that have happened or developments that have happened over the years. And also on the other end, how does it feel a bit different this time or does it feel different?

John Jantsch (01:41.964)

Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways it feels if there's a same, it's fundamentally what we're here to do as marketers. I don't think it'll ever change. And so a lot of the changes that came along were like, wait, we have a new way to interact with customers. We have a new platform to be found. Customers, you know, have a different way to buy from us. So those were, those were kind of in a lot of ways, incremental changes, significant ones for a lot of folks.

In terms of the change with what AI is bringing, I think it's much more foundational. It certainly feels very different. And I think partly because it impacts so many areas of a business. A lot of the website was kind of a marketing thing, whereas AI is impacting finance, it's impacting customer service, it's impacting certainly all the marketing functions. And ultimately it's impacting consumers and what they're able to do greatly.

I just feel like this is a, you know, I've heard some people say this, it might be kind of cliche, but you know, this is almost like, this is almost like, you know, the industrial revolution, like all these machines, you know, came along that automated, you know, manual labor that, you know, that, that really displaced a lot of jobs and started creating the, you know, the knowledge economy. And I think this is a bit more like that. This is going to fundamentally shift how we work.

Sara Nay (03:04.059)

Yeah, absolutely. And the school system, a lot of it was built from that era as well. And so I've heard a lot of conversation about, you know, potentially AI adjusting how we actually teach our children in school as well. Who needs it? It's done for you. A lot of what you've spoken about over the years is strategy before tactics. And now a lot of people are talking about strategy before technology. And so I'm just curious your take on there's, there's a lot of shiny objects in AI.

John Jantsch (03:08.546)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:14.722)

Yeah, no more math, right? Who needs math? Who needs learned math, right?

John Jantsch (03:24.557)

Yes.

John Jantsch (03:31.278)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:31.867)

There's a lot of, every time I check my email, there's 10 different tools that are being recommended for me that relate to AI. And so I think a lot of people are getting sucked into just doing things and figuring out how it works, but not necessarily taking a step back and saying, how could this apply to my business? How could I approach this strategically? So what would your advice be there for someone that needs to get out of the shiny object syndrome and focus on the strategy behind it?

John Jantsch (03:54.498)

Well, I think there's a real danger in not. In fact, think strategy is more important. And here's why. It's like taking somebody who used to ride a bike. You know, got a helmet, you're riding the bike, you're probably okay if you crash unless you're like on a mountain or something, right? But now we're going to put somebody in the seat of a Lamborghini without a seatbelt, without a helmet. We're going to say, drive really fast. And if they don't...

If they're on the right road, if they don't have the right map, if they don't have the right skills, you know, they're just going to, they're just going to die faster. I know that's sort of dramatic, but I think that that's what's going to happen from a marketing state, from a business. If your strategy is wrong, if your messaging is wrong, if your product market fit is wrong, you're just going to fail faster now. So you might succeed faster as well.

Sara Nay (04:29.233)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (04:43.648)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:46.606)

But if you don't have the right strategy in place, it's going to say, here's the path we're going to take. There's a real danger in just having a whole lot of technology that's going to get you there faster.

Sara Nay (04:57.649)

Yeah, absolutely. What about the mindset shift too? Cause there definitely are different sides of things. People are like AI is the future, stuff's changing quickly. This is the best thing ever. But there's also the other side of things where people are like, I'm terrified as where we're going, we're going to lose all these jobs. And so what about adopting the right mindset to be able to advance with these different tools?

John Jantsch (05:04.824)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:10.424)

Sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:16.13)

Well, I think there's legitimate fear. There are a lot of jobs that are going to be displaced, a lot of positions, a lot of skills that are not going to be that important. mean, when you think about it, I now have the world's smartest human beings, the world's greatest IQ at my disposal. All of sudden being smarter is not going to be an advantage necessarily because we can tap that computing power.

so the mindset shifts, I think, I think it's a two level, certainly at the leadership level, you have to embrace it. You have to train your folks. You have to get them ready. And I think at the manager, the skilled, you know, person working in an organization, you know, they have to realize that their job is probably not, any more about doing technical things. it is going to be about managing the path that those technical things are being done on. So.

You know, that might not be a fit for everybody who really likes to get in there and crunch the numbers and analyze the data. You know, instead of really looking at like, I need to be really good at reading actuary tables, for example, you actually need to be really good at analyzing this amazing output that you're going to get from these tools and managing and orchestrating the output that you get and making sense of it and contextualizing it. And that's probably a different skill set.

You know, before we got on the call, I was, and I give Lisa Adams full credit for this. her up on LinkedIn. If you want to find out some somebody who's really doing some great things in AI. But she, she said this statement. I think we've been saying it for a long time. Strategy is going to be more important. The human element is going to be more important, but she, just nails it with this. As AI democratizes IQ, EQ is going to become more important.

Some people call them soft skills, but emotional quotient. The ability to bring emotion, the ability to bring reality into who you're trying to market you, to understand your customers, to understand the context in which your customers are trying to solve their problems. Those are things that humans with high EQ are very, very good at.

John Jantsch (07:33.058)

you can take it farther. mean, AI is democratizing reach. So community is going to be more important. Like as we can like spam more people, you know, communicating is going to be more important as AI just makes it so easy for anybody who's never written two words, or put two sentences together, can now create, you know, theoretically create long form content, you know, having that personal connection with your clients is going to become more important. So those are all things that

If you were going to go read a book or take a course on EQ, those are the kinds of things, listening, empathy are the kinds of things that they would talk about. And I think those are going to be the things that those are going to be the skills that are going to be valued in the job market moving forward.

Sara Nay (08:19.611)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we've talked about this a lot, you and I too, it's right now it's we're not thinking about AI is replacing jobs. It's helping us do different or better or higher level work. And so think that also sums up what you were saying there. We're not like firing our whole team and letting them go because we're bringing a bunch of AI. but we are helping them all elevate and us ourselves elevate, you know, to, focus on the strategic thinking and the creativity and the collaboration and the EQ elements that you talked about there as well.

John Jantsch (08:48.844)

Yeah, and sadly, there will be people that are looking at that way. Look, I can have all these agents and I don't have to have any people. I saw somebody post on LinkedIn, the $3 billion company with only three employees. you know, those get headlines, those get clicks. But, you know, frankly, it is going to displace the positions or the functions inside of organizations. you know, certainly people with high EQ, I think, will

who can adapt to kind of a new way to work, I think will thrive. And there will be some, you know, just like everything. I mean, when the automobile came along, you know, when the factories came along, mean, different jobs got displaced when the computer came along, you know, different jobs got displaced. And, you know, the, the, it ultimately, you know, new jobs were created, new education was created, new training was created for people to, you know, to change the skills. But that's

Sara Nay (09:20.669)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:44.482)

You know, it's never great for somebody that, you know, all their life has done a certain type of job and now they're being told, you have to, you have to work differently than you have your whole life. But you know, that that's come really with, with even incremental changes, you know, over time in the workplace.

Sara Nay (09:53.776)

No.

Sara Nay (10:00.197)

Yeah, I think it's really important. I read something the other day about the mind shift with AI and what you were talking about there is like, you really have to have a growth mindset with this thing. You have to be eager to learn and expand and grow as a human to be able to get the full capabilities of AI. And I think that's a good, good way to think about it as well.

John Jantsch (10:07.918)

Totally. Totally.

John Jantsch (10:16.504)

Yeah. And I'll acknowledge it's exhausting. but you, you know, I think particularly at the speed, you know, that we're moving right now, but you're absolutely right. You have to have that gross mindset and, and it's tough because I mean, it means you have to do things that are not comfortable. Maybe, you know, there, there's a lot of people that you mentioned this idea that AI seems really frightening and kind of techie. And so there's just.

Sara Nay (10:18.993)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:43.468)

You know, some folks that that's, know, that's not their comfort zone, but it's a matter of, don't mean this in a really negative sounding way, but, I don't think we have much choice.

Sara Nay (10:55.079)

Yeah.

Another area I want to dive into a bit more is you mentioned the human element a little bit more and making personal connections with your clients. And so with the evolution of AI right now, we're seeing people are producing more content. There's chat bots online, you're, you know, you're getting cold outreach, direct outreach from AI tools. And so there's a lot of stuff that feels very automated. LinkedIn comments is another example where it just feels very automated. So how can companies stand out from that noise by doing things such as, you know, building trust, building brand actually

John Jantsch (11:07.491)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:25.635)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (11:26.675)

connecting with people. So what are some examples to stand out from the noise?

John Jantsch (11:30.894)

Well, I think for a lot of marketers, particularly, you have to really understand your brand voice. mean, you have to have a brand voice. mean, that's one of your differentiators. Duct tape marketing is quite often seen by people as very practical, down to earth, plain spoken. And that's a brand voice that we've spent a lot of time developing. And shame on us if we use some of the automation tools to not sound like us.

so, so I think that's really, you know, I feel like we're very empathetic. think we're very caring about what we do, and care about the people that we serve. and that comes out, I think in the content that we produce and, you know, it is really tempting to say, look, I can do a, I can automate somebody having a hundred LinkedIn comments, you know, spread all over the place. Well, first off, it probably is counter.

to what you're trying to do because you know, you and I have laughed about it. You see these comments on your LinkedIn posts and it's clearly, you know, that was just AI generated and, and, you know, it really actually kind of makes you want to ban that person, you know? And so it's certainly not doing any value for them. But I think what it just means is it'll get easier to spot something that is both AI generated and something that is actually authentically generated.

I think you'll get, I think the gap between those two is going to get even larger. And so spending the time to say, Hey, here's who I really am. And this is how I talk. And maybe I don't use punctuation here, you know, whatever, whatever it is, that is your brand voice. I think just understand it and stay true to it. And I know there are a lot of people talking about, you can train AI to do that. but I can spot it.

Sara Nay (13:18.619)

Yeah. think one of the easiest ways to spot an actual human producing content for me versus AI, one of the best ways I can see is storytelling. If someone's talking about their actual personal experiences, I think that's an easy way to spot. do you think there's going to be an increased importance of storytelling as a brand and also humans representing the brand as well?

John Jantsch (13:27.458)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:39.148)

Yeah. Yeah. I think storytelling has actually been, it's been hot for 10 years. know, I mean that idea in marketing, but I think you're right. It's now going to be a key differentiator. mean, AI can't make up that case story or that example of, know, what happened, you know, on the day at work in your actual office can't be made up. And so, you know, I think that that's a lot of ways going to be a huge differentiator.

Sara Nay (14:04.081)

Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there's a specific area of marketing that's being shaken up the most right now? So SEO, paid, any channels that are being shaken up the most right now?

John Jantsch (14:12.653)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:16.194)

Well, I think the content one was the first one that of course, you know, when people woke up and went, wait, I hate writing content. You mean I can just put this in this thing and it'll spit out 700 words? I mean, the real temptation, you know, was first there because it seemed so easy. It seemed, you know, too good to be true, right? And so people certainly jumped in there. So it, now a lot of people are starting to realize the backlash of that and the fallacy of, you know, of that just being able to produce content. So that was the first area though that clearly got disrupted.

I would say the next one is clearly going to be coming in the creative space, the design, the video, the editing. mean, those are things that, again, I don't think there's too many people out there going to Dali and producing images for everything, but certainly it's not far away and they're not only having video and audio editing tools that work quite well, they're going to have video and audio creation.

tools that are going to work, you know, to the, to the level where you could actually put in a script and it will actually create an entire video for you. So I think there'll be some disruption there. Again, I think that's one of those things that now all of a sudden there's the, know, there's a lot of things that AI tools can do. And, you know, I think the differentiator is going to be somebody looking at it and saying, you know, with our brand voice in mind, with our brand promise in mind.

what should it do? And so, you know, there are things, you know, I had somebody that wanted to have an AI bot interview me for a podcast, you know, for, for example, I was like, well, first off, I wasn't interested, but secondly, I was like, why would anybody, you know, think that was a good idea? But, you know, there are a lot of things that people do because they look at it they go, look, if we connect this together and this connect and people get really excited about that.

Sara Nay (16:01.852)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.382)

But I think we have to stay real and say, okay, from a practical sense, what would be best experience for our clients?

Sara Nay (16:17.723)

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we've been really focused on recently in our conversations is what's a good use case. Like, why are we exploring this? How can we actually make a difference with that? And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. Another area that I've heard you talk about a little bit is hyper personalization in terms of communication. And so it's not going to be just about mass content to everyone that follows you. Like we have an opportunity to get a lot more focused in what we're saying to specific people. So I would love to just hear your, your insights and what do you think the opportunity there is for 2025?

John Jantsch (16:47.352)

Well, for a lot of smaller businesses, the opportunity, mean, personalization has been there. Let's face it, since email service providers came along and you could say, John, inside an email, that's a level of personalization that's been there forever. But what AI does is gives us easier access to a lot of data. So for instance, not only do I know your first name,

I know your LinkedIn profile and I know the last five things you've posted about. And that can actually be brought into a data set, you know, keeping all privacy, you know, things in mind that can be brought into a data set that would allow me to say, Hey, here are four products we sell. You talked about this. I'm going to send you an email on Tuesday morning at seven o'clock, because that's when you post all the time. And I know you're around on your computer. So I'm going to send you that email and I'm going to talk about.

not only a certain product that we have that I think would be a fit for you, but the problem that you uniquely identified that it solves for you. So that's the promise of it. Now, the challenge of course is, you know, a lot of small businesses don't have access to that data. A lot of larger organizations certainly are way ahead in that game. but

Segmenting and personalizing is something that, you know, a lot of the tool sets are going to start making easier in the very near future. And I think it's, you know, a lot of what we have to do as marketers is informed by behavior that other companies are doing, that people get used to. And so when people start expecting that you're going to understand, you know, what they need, or you're going to understand it.

They already bought that product. They're going to be less tolerant about, you know, your kind of one size fits all kind of promotion.

Sara Nay (18:41.275)

Yeah. On the sales side of things, I'm using a tool right now to prepare for sales calls where it basically brings in someone's disc profile based on their LinkedIn. And it helps me understand how to sell to that unique individual, how to get their attention. Should I stay very high level or should I get down into the weeds? And so that's just an example of more personalized sales. I know you were talking a lot about marketing, but marketing and sales go together. So

John Jantsch (18:57.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (19:05.582)

Yeah. I, it's funny that I use that same tool. Of course, I just did a Google meet with somebody and it actually popped up in the Google meet and said, here's how to talk with that person. So it was pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. I suspect it does in zoom. I didn't, I've never done it, but I, that was the first time I'd seen it.

Sara Nay (19:16.414)

well.

Sara Nay (19:23.724)

Well, we're at the top of our time about so any final thoughts just on the topic of 2025, what people should be focusing on right now in marketing.

John Jantsch (19:31.436)

Well, you said probably the one that's the biggest, know, is, is continue to evolve. I mean, this is not going to stop. You're not going to catch up necessarily. So continue, you know, to grow, continue to commit to growth. And I don't think you have to, I don't think you have to throw your hands up and say, I have to learn everything about this. Follow a couple of good people, focus on one new tool or one new use case, you know, a month.

or something so that you'll start understanding it and start making it a priority for your teams to start, to continue to grow, to continue to learn these things so that you can actually explore them together and really start to get that mindset cemented about how we have to work with this new set of tools and technology that we're all going to have available, whether we like it or not.

Sara Nay (20:24.893)

And I would add one more to I've learned a lot from just connecting and masterminding with other people that are doing really interesting things with AI and so I would also encourage you on top of what John just shared to form a mini mastermind group with some peers and share use cases and how you're both all exploring the different tools as well because I think you can just learn a lot from others because we're all just figuring it out right now.

John Jantsch (20:32.622)

100%.

John Jantsch (20:46.668)

We ought to do that. Why don't we create a membership type of program where you can join and we'll give you a use case once a month and kind of collaborate as a group in a live training or something. If that sounds interesting to you, send me an email, because that's something we might actually work on. think that would be a really cool thing. So it's just John at Duct Tape Marketing if you think that that idea of a collaboration membership.

around AI so you can learn in real time. Like there's no way to create a course on AI because it's changing so fast, but kind of having a monthly accountability group where you're working on a use case might actually be kind of cool. So let's do that, sir.

Sara Nay (21:26.609)

Let's do it. heard it here first. We'll keep it as practical as possible. So thanks, John.

John Jantsch (21:28.206)

All right. Awesome. Well, thank you all for tuning in to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. And this is where I guess I'm supposed to say, hopefully we'll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Sara Nay (21:42.109)

Thanks everyone.

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The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too)

The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Sonnenberg

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Sonnenberg, founder of Leverage, a leading operational efficiency consultancy, and author of the bestselling book Come Up for Air. Nick is an expert in business efficiency, team productivity, and workplace systems. His CPR framework has transformed the way businesses operate by addressing common bottlenecks in communication, planning, and resources.

During our conversation, Nick shared his personal journey of overcoming chaos in his business, where rapid growth led to inefficiency and burnout. He explained how the CPR framework—focusing on Communication, Planning, and Resources—helps organizations streamline workflows, improve team collaboration, and maximize time management. By implementing this approach, businesses can achieve operational efficiency, reduce stress, and create sustainable systems that support long-term success.

Nick Sonnenberg’s CPR framework is a game-changer for business owners looking to improve team productivity, streamline workflows, and create a stress-free operational environment. Whether you’re an overwhelmed entrepreneur or a growing organization, adopting this framework can transform how you work and set you up for long-term success.

Key Takeaways:

• The CPR Framework
  • Communication: Streamline internal communication by consolidating tools and reducing unnecessary back-and-forth. For example, task-related discussions should live in project management tools, not Slack or email.
  • Planning: Centralize task and project management in tools like Asana or Monday.com. This ensures everyone knows what needs to be done, by whom, and when.
  • Resources: Create a knowledge base or wiki where team members can self-serve answers to routine questions, reducing disruptions and improving efficiency.
• Prioritize Return on Time (ROT)
  • Focus on tasks that yield the highest time savings for the least investment. This approach ensures that efforts are directed toward impactful improvements in business workflows and team productivity.
• Systemize Early to Scale Effectively
  • Even solopreneurs should start implementing systems early to prepare for growth. Small, incremental changes to streamline processes can prevent chaos as the business scales.
• The Importance of Documentation
  • Use tools like Loom to record processes and create step-by-step guides. Documenting workflows not only helps current employees but also reduces risks when onboarding new team members or transitioning roles.
• Long-Term vs. Short-Term Thinking
  • Businesses focused on long-term efficiency see greater success than those chasing quick wins. Investing in operational efficiency and business systems now creates a stress-free and scalable environment in the future.

Chapters:

• [00:09] Introducing Nick Sonnenberg
• [00:44] How Nick Stopped Drowning in Work
• [06:25] Prioritizing Where to Start
• [07:46] Focusing on What Matters
• [10:08] Investing in Implementing Change
• [11:34] Solving Operational Efficiency Holistically
• [12:48] Best Practices of CPR (Communication, Planning, and Resources)
• [16:24] What Size Business is CPR for?
• [18:14] Find Out More About Nick and His Work

More About Duncan Wardle: 

• Check out Nick Sonnenberg’s Website
• Connect with Nick Sonnenberg on LinkedIn
• Read Come Up for Air: How Teams Can Leverage Systems and Tools to Stop Drowning in Work by Nick Sonnenberg

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.

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Why Your Focus Groups Are Failing and What to Do Instead

Why Your Focus Groups Are Failing and What to Do Instead written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jacqueline Lieberman

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jacqueline Lieberman, founder of Brand Crudo and creator of the Anti-Focus Group method. Jacqueline is a brand strategist who works with global giants like Google, Unilever, and Lexus to uncover raw truths and develop innovative brand strategies.

Jacqueline shared how traditional focus groups often fail to provide actionable customer insights and why a new approach is essential for B2B marketing success. She introduced the concept of the Anti-Focus Group, a unique method that replaces sterile conference rooms with VIP dinners to unlock authentic customer feedback, emotional triggers, and deeper connections. This revolutionary approach delivers valuable insights that drive impactful brand messaging, marketing solutions, and business strategies.

Jacqueline Lieberman’s Anti-Focus Group revolutionizes the way brands approach customer insights, brand strategy, and marketing innovation. By moving beyond traditional focus groups and leveraging intimate, VIP settings, businesses can unlock deeper emotional triggers, craft more impactful messaging, and elevate their B2B marketing efforts. If you’re ready to transform your approach to customer research and brand development, the Anti-Focus Group method offers a fresh, effective solution.

 

Key Takeaways:

• Why Traditional Focus Groups Fail
  Traditional focus groups often take place in uninspiring environments, like conference rooms or Zoom panels, where participants feel detached or distracted. These settings fail to uncover the emotional triggers and raw truths needed for meaningful brand strategy.
• The Power of Anti-Focus Groups
  Jacqueline’s Anti-Focus Group method uses curated VIP dinners to create a comfortable, engaging atmosphere. By fostering authentic conversations, this approach uncovers actionable customer insights and builds deeper connections.
• Emotional Triggers and Customer Feedback
  Emotional triggers and customer mindsets are critical to effective marketing. The Anti-Focus Group method helps brands identify these elements, enabling them to craft brand messaging that resonates deeply with their target audience.
• B2B Marketing Innovation
  In B2B settings, understanding executive feedback is key. The Anti-Focus Group method helps businesses gather these insights while also enhancing brand perception through high-quality, exclusive experiences.
• Rapid and Actionable Insights
  Unlike traditional marketing research methods, Anti-Focus Groups provide a quick turnaround. Insights are delivered within 10 days, allowing brands to act swiftly and confidently on new strategies.

Chapters:

• [00:09] Introducing Jacqueline Lieberman
• [01:10] Anti-Focus Group Dinners: A New Approach to B2B Research
• [05:17] Leveraging Dinner Events for Authentic Customer Feedback
• [09:41] Impact of VIP Dinners
• [12:41] Client Feedback of Anti-Focus Group Dinners
• [14:38] Logistics and Strategy for B2B Client
• [16:06] Scaling the Impact of Group Dinners

More About Jacqueline Lieberman: 

• Check out Jacqueline Lieberman’s Website
• Connect with Jacqueline Lieberman on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.282)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jacqueline Lieberman. She's former chief strategy officer at Story Worldwide, a master of narrative-based marketing, blending human insights with brand truths for giants like Unilever, Google, and Lexus. She's now the founder of brand Crudo, which she created the DNA method to help &A executives and CMOs differentiate their brands by leveraging raw

truths that can't be copied. Frustrated by the stale research methods, she also launched the Anti-Focus Group, exclusive dinners that deliver actionable insights from hard to reach audiences while doubling as premium brand experiences. So Jacqueline, welcome to the show.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:49.624)

Thank you, john. feel like that's the podcast. did such a great job with the intro. We're done.

John Jantsch (00:52.452)

Well, I just read what you gave me to tell you the truth. So I take no credit credit for other than being able to read, which Mrs. Morrison in first grade made sure of.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:57.262)

you

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:03.16)

There we go.

John Jantsch (01:04.228)

All right, so let's define like what's an anti-focus group dinner look like.

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:09.422)

sure. Yeah, well, let's see, as the name suggests, it is the opposite of what a traditional focus group is. And because I am a believer that setting really matters. So when you think about traditional focus groups, they basically take two paths. The traditional route is that you think of this, you know, conference room, a stale conference room with a

what feels like this double glass, you know, one sided mirror that's there that makes you feel like you're in like an FBI interrogation room, you know, being detained for some reason. And then you have a moderator who nine times out of 10 really just looked at, you know, what they're supposed to be talking about. And they don't really have a lot of skin in the game as to like what to do with the information. So there's that.

And then the, you know, with the advent of zoom and online panels. So now a lot of really where it's gone is that you're looking at a screen with a bunch of boxes that people are doing all day long anyway. And of course people are multitasking while they're supposedly answering your questions and paying attention. So that's made the whole feedback loop even worse in my opinion, you know? So yeah.

John Jantsch (02:31.564)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I was just going to say, so, you've talked about all the limitations of those, but I mean, are, the real limitation that we're not getting very much that's actionable out of these? mean, is that why it's broken?

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:33.998)

And so what I go ahead and you go.

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:51.254)

Yeah, I mean, so being 30 years on the receiving end of those reports, and that number is a real number three, zero. And, and I because I'm the one that's supposed to do something with it as a brand strategist. This is supposed to be a gold mine of information by which I'm supposed to use as a foundation for brand strategy, audience messaging. And, you know, because of that,

John Jantsch (02:59.95)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (03:21.068)

What I end up getting is I dig through a hundred pages of a poorly designed PowerPoint and the crux of it is really about it tells you exactly what was said in the room, which is helpful, but it doesn't tell you why it was said. It doesn't tell you really what the motivations are behind what some of the feedback was. And really what the anti-focus group dinners are about is

They're designed to uncover key mindset and emotional triggers, right? So those are really the two foundational elements of marketing mindset and emotion. So that's what this dinner setting is meant to unlock because immediately the professional armor comes off. As soon as they walk in the room, they're like, this is like the best, this is the best part of my day right now. They're treated like VIPs from the second they walk in.

And they're sitting down to an amazing meal in an amazing setting. And I'm gently moderating the conversation. I'm not peppering them with a million questions, but it's new course, new question, or new course, new sets of questions. And we talk about things like, how do you build trust with people? Who do you love to collaborate with and why?

Is there anything in your career that you haven't done yet that you really want to do? Just so we can understand the more as people and not as targets is really what the feedback is.

John Jantsch (04:59.62)

So as I listen to those, it's almost more like networking questions than research questions, right? It's something you might typically want to uncover in a healthy networking conversation. But let's back up a little bit. So I'm assuming, or maybe I'm wrong, but are these mostly, if not exclusively, B2B settings? OK. OK.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:10.712)

Sure.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:17.794)

Yeah, they seem to work for b2b, you know, so, you know, it's not about, you know, let's look at the latest box of Cheerios and determine what the creative is. It's, it's really more about business to business products and services.

John Jantsch (05:26.733)

Yeah, okay.

John Jantsch (05:34.116)

So I'm a customer or maybe a targeted customer. get invited to this. Am I told I'm going to dinner and it's going to be a research? do you sometimes get a little, because it's unique, do you sometimes get a little, wait a minute, what?

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:42.402)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:48.45)

Well, we get mostly the only wait a minute what is when we do disclose that they will be wearing microphones, because this is research, you know, so this is, you know, when I call it, it's the most productive dinner you'll ever sponsor all year, you know, it's like you have b2b dinners all the time and networking, right and golf outings and all of this stuff. But but when people walk in,

John Jantsch (05:56.676)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:04.536)

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:14.574)

They we let them know in the invitation before they even respond that they will be mic'd up that this is for research and just like research in a focus group they do get compensated for their time. So we want them to feel that their time spent was immensely valuable in every way.

John Jantsch (06:36.42)

So I'm sure people forget about the microphones pretty quickly in, I'm imagining like, okay, I can't burp, right? So, all right, so then you get, I assume the microphone is because you're recording, right? So you get all of this recordings. How do you make sense out of them that in a way that you can actually address the objectives of the sponsor?

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:43.502)

We haven't run into that.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:02.464)

Yes. Well, before I answer that directly, I will address the so the mindset questions that I was saying before, we do have dinners where it is a mix, it really depends on the goal of the dinner. some goals of the dinner are to really understand their ideal customer way better in terms of their mindset and emotional triggers. So that could be the beginning of the dinner, the second half of the dinner could be very much of a brass tacks look,

John Jantsch (07:10.627)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:17.188)

Hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:30.246)

we would like you to respond to this messaging or this concept board. And I hand it I hand it out over dinner and say, you know, once we're done, or we're looking at dessert, and we say, Okay, what do you think about this particular concept or this tagline? So we can get to brass tacks and cover that for sure. But we recommend that it's definitely going to be a balance of both mindset as well as the brass tacks to make it really worth the sponsoring companies while

John Jantsch (07:33.86)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:00.258)

You know, I've always contended for years that, you know, one of the best things a company can do is bring their customers together so that they can, hey, you know, I've had this problem. They solved that problem for me too. So there's networking, there's referrals that go on. It's people feel like champions now because you've treated them to dinner. Is there a little bit of a combination of, hey, we're like treating you special and getting research from you?

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:07.266)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:27.086)

for sure. Yeah, for sure. mean, and making them feel valued is part of where the authentic feedback comes in, you know, because when, you know, like I said, when that armor kind of comes down immediately, when you make this comfortable setting and you're breaking bread with people and introducing yourself and all of a sudden, you'll get a very different piece of feedback if you ask the same question in a zoom panel or in a conference room.

know, you just do and and that's the the beauty of it. And and with your question before about you know, how do I weed through three hours of transcript but you know, I've been interviewing stakeholders my entire career, it's part of my process for brand strategy, right? So so before I even, you know, put pen to paper on a brand foundation work, I

ask and say give me the 1015 people at your company who I should be talking to. So so I've been doing you know, trying to pull out the nuggets of what people say, you know, my whole career and this is really no different.

John Jantsch (09:37.944)

Yeah. Well, and I will say maybe you'll disagree with it, but this idea, but, your, strategist brain creates the questions in the conversation, but I do think some of the new tools that we have AI tools, are very good at analysis if given the right data, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:50.446)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:54.938)

sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it helps with calling down transcriptions and you know, maybe generating some themes but you know, I'm I'm the only one that has my client in the back of my brain to understand really what they're looking for. So, that's what I'm looking at when I look through those raw transcripts.

John Jantsch (10:07.82)

Yeah, that's right.

John Jantsch (10:14.98)

So do you have an example maybe of a campaign or maybe you can't name names but maybe talk a little bit about the impact of one of these dinners?

Jacqueline Lieberman (10:24.216)

Sure, yeah, I can't name names or disclose, but we've had dinners where it was first, it's like, okay, we need to really know our customers better because the current personas that we have just tell me the pain points of why they hate my technology, for instance. And I already knew that. can we really understand who they are as people? So that was dinner number one. Then we went back to work.

and said, okay, so this is the feedback from dinner number one, we worked on brand strategy and positioning. So we worked on actual messaging for campaigns and for websites, like for homepages, product descriptions, things like that. And it was a piece of technology for a platform. And, and then so dinner number two was very specific around, what do you think about what this company is saying and how they're talking about their technology?

And that now that particular dinner informed what ended up on the website and what is in campaign development right now. And, you know, so CMOs are, you know, it's a way to really kind of keep a quarterly pulse on, know, how their customers are evolving. Also how, you know, especially if it's a B2B technology company.

John Jantsch (11:41.538)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (11:49.388)

You have a product roadmap, you're constantly putting out new technology. So that's always evolving. So, you know, they're using it as these quarterly check-ins to understand if they're on the right track.

John Jantsch (12:01.633)

Do you see this approach being something that has specific uses or do you think this is just going to reshape the way brands do research, period?

Jacqueline Lieberman (12:11.592)

mean, honestly, it's, I mean, there's nothing wrong with starting if brands are doing surveys, you know, things like that. I think there's always a use for surveys because it casts out a wide net. And surveys will always be there for that reason is to get a beat on, you know, what the mass market or what your mass consumer is saying if we want to send it out to a couple of hundred people. Now, when you really start to

Any qualitative is usually second after that survey is like, okay, here are the general themes that we saw that people are saying and what they care about. Let's dig in deeper. And usually that's where, you know, focus groups and online panels come in. But, you know, as I said before, when we're talking about really understanding, say, executive level insights, C-suite insights, they're not going to focus groups. They're not joining.

online panels, and maybe they'll be doing a survey maybe. So this is the way to really understand what that B2B executive is really caring about and what motivates them.

John Jantsch (13:22.092)

Have you heard from clients that have done, I don't know, let's call it traditional as opposed to anti-focus group. Have you heard from some that say, wow, this is different or what's been the feedback?

Jacqueline Lieberman (13:34.97)

yeah. I mean, I can't so the feedback from clients and I'll talk about the guests in a minute. but what clients are really loving is the fact that there there is this brand halo effect that happens. That's that intangible effect of when people are leaving on a high. So even if they didn't know the sponsoring brand coming in, you know, we disclose who the sponsoring company is. But even if they weren't familiar with it at first, say,

John Jantsch (13:41.284)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:04.822)

Now they're leaving the room, understanding them better, leaving on a high, networking and exchanging numbers with other guests. So it became like this peer to peer exchange dinner by default. you can't beat getting a beautifully designed 15 to 20 page chock full of actionable insights where we go, here's the main insight.

Here's the main implication and here's the very specific marketing opportunity. You get that within 10 days, not a month, not six weeks, not anything that you need like, well, can we look at this or that? Can you cut the data this way? It's 10 days, they get exactly what they need to act on. And that's what they've been loving.

John Jantsch (14:51.812)

So I heard you say that they may not know the brand. these are not customers. I just made an assumption that they're interviewing customers or having customers at these.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:59.648)

It's a little it's been both. So some it's been let's invite our existing pool of customers. And then there's been you know what, we need to just recruit our existing profile and of people who may or may not know us, but we're going to invite them to dinner anyway. So and you know, there's a lot of gold in inviting those types of guests as well.

John Jantsch (15:22.99)

So there are some logistics, right? They have to be in the room. So do you, know, lot of B2B brands, their clients might be all over the country, all over the world. So does that add a layer of logistics and cost, I assume, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:26.094)

Correct.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:33.368)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:38.072)

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think really what we do is we start with the customer, the sponsoring company. Everybody has a sales, Jen demand, Jen lead list. So everybody has warm leads, hot leads. We start there and say, okay, who, who are they? Can we, can we get them into in a specific geo? And then once we get the geography down, then we pick the, the 20 that really will.

move the needle for the sponsoring company. then, you know, the, take care of all the logistics from there, which is as soon as I have those 15 to 20 people, then we start the outreach and, and I have to say the, you know, the venue is also very important because again, if we want people to come, we want them to be excited about it, that it's time well spent. it's

it's in a venue that either they've heard about been there before or someplace that they've always wanted to go and just haven't been. So the venue is definitely a draw. And that's why, you know, we really insist on keeping the quality very high, because we want it to be, you know, really well worth their time, you know, when when they enter. So, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.388)

Is this something in your mind that you could write a book about, that you could teach, that you could certify other people to do, or do you have any plans to scale it beyond your work?

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:07.266)

Yeah, I mean, I've thought about, you know, I thought about a book at least, in thinking about just kind of the magic that happens when you break bread with people around the table and and what you kind of learn from that because guests come in as complete strangers and then they leave almost as friends. I mean, they're hugging me at the end, you know, taking selfies with a group selfies of all of us, they're exchanging information.

John Jantsch (17:32.004)

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:36.174)

We connect on LinkedIn and every single person who on LinkedIn has commented on any of my posts, if they were a guest, they say, I mean, here's the other thing. They haven't just commented like one sentence like, that was great. Paragraphs, I'm getting paragraphs of comments saying this was unlike anything I've ever experienced. You know, it was a way that...

John Jantsch (17:55.204)

video.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:02.274)

we opened up I keep in touch with the people around the table that I met that night now on a consistent basis. So it's it's a really nice ripple effect that happens, you know, after that particular dinner, which is which feels great. You know? Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:17.228)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jacqueline, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and tell us a little bit about what you're working on. Is there any place you'd invite people to find out more about your work or certainly about

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:30.016)

Yeah, absolutely. They can just go to brand crudo dot com and there's an anti focus group tab right there and they can find out more info.

John Jantsch (18:40.132)

I'm going show my ignorance here and I'm sure you told me the last time you were on the show, what's the significance of the word of the yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:46.03)

brand crudo. So part of the DNA method of what I uncover for brands to help out maneuver their competition is that I believe that every brand has a raw truth, you know, and that's part of their DNA. So, so that's where crudo came from. And, that's what I helped them uncover and tell to the world through strategy.

John Jantsch (18:59.986)

John Jantsch (19:10.486)

Awesome. again, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jacqueline Lieberman (19:17.046)

awesome. Thank you, john. Thank you so much for having me. Bye bye.

John Jantsch (19:19.492)

You bet.

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