The AI Driven Leader: How to Think Strategically and Make Smarter Decisions with AI

The AI Driven Leader: How to Think Strategically and Make Smarter Decisions with AI written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Summary

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes Geoff Woods, founder of AI Leadership and author of the international bestseller The AI Driven Leader: Harnessing AI to Make Faster Decisions. Geoff shares how leaders can use AI not just to automate tasks—but to enhance strategic thinking, speed up decision-making, and escape operational overwhelm.

Through frameworks like CRIT (Context, Role, Interview, Task) and real-world use cases, Geoff reframes AI as a high-level thought partner rather than a basic productivity tool. The discussion explores how leaders can remain relevant, sharpen their judgment, and bring out the best in their teams by embracing AI as a strategic amplifier—not a threat.

About Geoff Woods

Geoff Woods is the founder of AI Leadership and the AI Driven Leadership Collective, where he helps C-suite leaders and growth-minded executives navigate the AI revolution. Formerly Chief Growth Officer at Jindal Steel, Geoff previously built the company behind the bestselling book The ONE Thing. His latest mission is to redefine leadership by helping visionaries use AI to think, decide, and lead more effectively in an uncertain world.

Explore his work, prompts, and leadership resources at AIleadership.com, and find The AI Driven Leader on Amazon and Audible.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why AI should be your thought partner—not just a task assistant
• The CRIT framework for writing powerful prompts
• How to use AI to ask better questions and challenge assumptions
• Why focusing on your 20% priorities is the key to value creation
• How to lead your team through AI-driven cultural change
• A simple formula for explaining jobs and AI’s impact to your team
• How decision-making can be faster, deeper, and more strategic with AI
• Why leaders must “walk the talk” and not delegate AI adoption

Key Moments from the Episode

• 00:47 – What inspired The AI Driven Leader
• 02:26 – Why AI is your thought partner, not your replacement
• 04:55 – Why trying to “clear the plate” is the wrong productivity goal
• 07:37 – The CRIT framework for writing better prompts
• 10:08 – Real-world AI use case: saving a company from bankruptcy
• 12:33 – How to address cultural resistance to AI
• 13:38 – Why understanding “job = skills × processes” matters now
• 16:18 – Rethinking how we make business decisions
• 17:47 – What AI’s role in leadership really looks like
• 19:47 – Where to start as a leader adopting AI
• 21:16 – Geoff’s monthly process for reviewing financials with AI
• 22:15 – How to get Geoff’s strategic prompt library from the book

Explore AI-Driven Leadership

Looking to become a more strategic, AI-powered leader? Pick up The AI Driven Leader and explore Geoff’s prompt frameworks and executive community for top-tier leadership growth.

Visit AIleadership.com

Purchase the book and email your receipt to book@aileadership.com to receive a bonus PDF of 40 strategic AI prompts.

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Shoveling Shit: The Messy Truth of Entrepreneurship

Shoveling Shit: The Messy Truth of Entrepreneurship written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Summary

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with Mike and Kass Lazerow—seasoned entrepreneurs, investors, and authors of the bold new book Shoveling Shit: A Love Story. Known for co-founding Golf.com and Buddy Media (acquired by Salesforce for $745 million), the Lazerows bring decades of experience to the mic to discuss the raw, unfiltered reality of entrepreneurship.Their conversation dives into why embracing the mess—failures, pivots, and uncertainty—isn’t a flaw in the entrepreneurial journey, but a defining feature. From building businesses as a married couple to rejecting the myth of work-life balance, this episode explores what it really takes to build a company (and a life) that lasts.

About Mike and Kass Lazerow

Mike Lazerow is a veteran tech entrepreneur and investor, having founded several ventures including Buddy Media, which was acquired by Salesforce for $745 million. He currently co-leads Founders Farm and Velos Partners, investing in and mentoring early-stage companies.

Kass Lazerow is an expert operator and co-founder with a sharp eye for systems, scaling, and execution. She’s worked side-by-side with Mike for over two decades. Together, they’ve supported nearly 100 startups and contributed to over $10 billion in realized gains.

Learn more about their work at shovelingshit.com.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why entrepreneurship is more about daily failure than sudden wins
• The “imbalanced life” framework and why work-life balance is a myth
• How Mike and Kass divide roles in business and marriage
• The role of transparency and communication in leading teams
• Key cheat codes from the book that every entrepreneur should know
• When to pivot and how to use metrics (and your gut) to decide
• How embracing uncertainty becomes a competitive advantage
• What legacy looks like for entrepreneurs focused on impact

Key Moments from the Episode

• 00:47 – Why “Shoveling Shit” was the right title for their book
• 02:12 – How their strengths as co-founders (and spouses) complement each other
• 04:24 – The imbalanced life: choosing obsession over balance
• 06:06 – Parenting while building businesses: honest trade-offs
• 08:31 – Mike’s favorite cheat code: ruthless prioritization
• 09:36 – Kass’s favorite cheat code: transparent leadership
• 10:45 – The importance of learning to thrive inside uncertainty
• 13:02 – Lessons from the dot-com crash and losing it all
• 14:56 – The cost of poor co-founder alignment
• 16:27 – How investors guide pivots through better questions
• 18:26 – Revisiting success metrics to know when change is needed
• 19:31 – What legacy means to Mike and Kass
• 21:31 – Where to find the book and connect with them online

Explore the Real Story of Entrepreneurship

Want a gritty, heartfelt look into what it takes to build something real? Pick up Shoveling Shit: A Love Story and explore tools, stories, and frameworks to help you succeed in both business and life.

Visit shovelingshit.com

 

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AI Ethics in Marketing: Why Strategy and Responsibility Must Go Hand in Hand

AI Ethics in Marketing: Why Strategy and Responsibility Must Go Hand in Hand written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Summary

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes Paul Chaney, a veteran digital marketer and publisher of the AI Marketing Ethics Digest. As artificial intelligence becomes central to marketing, Paul makes the case for why ethics and strategy must lead the conversation—not just the latest tools.

The discussion explores how unchecked AI use can damage brand trust, create internal chaos, and result in missed opportunities. From AI techno-stress to the need for governance and transparency, this episode offers a timely blueprint for adopting AI responsibly in modern marketing.

About Paul Chaney

Paul Chaney is a B2B writer, content strategist, and the founder of the AI Marketing Ethics Digest on Substack. With a long-standing career in digital marketing, Paul brings a sharp perspective on how businesses can balance the excitement of new AI tools with responsible, customer-focused ethics. His consulting and writing work is rooted in helping brands build trust and clarity in the age of automation.

• AI Marketing Ethics Digest
• Prescriptive Writing (Paul’s B2B Services)
• Connect with Paul on LinkedIn

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why ethical frameworks are critical in AI-powered marketing
• The risks of “shadow AI” and how to govern internal use
• How AI techno-stress is affecting employees and teams
• Why strategy should always come before adopting new tech
• How a “boxed” AI system could reduce chaos and stress in organizations

Key Moments from the Episode

• 00:40 – Why Paul launched the AI Marketing Ethics Digest
• 02:56 – Responsible AI from the customer’s perspective, not just compliance
• 04:06 – Transparency, bias, and brand reputation in AI output
• 05:33 – Strategy before technology: avoiding “bad work faster”
• 06:59 – What “shadow AI” is and how it can harm organizations
• 08:30 – The need for usage policies and monitoring internal AI use
• 10:54 – The Generative AI Business Adoption Hierarchy explained
• 12:51 – Embedding AI into business culture with governance and clarity
• 15:56 – What is AI techno-stress and how is it impacting workforces?
• 18:24 – Lack of training is a hidden ethical risk for employee well-being
• 19:55 – A real-world agency navigating generational divides in AI adoption
• 21:06 – Why many business owners may give up on AI—and what that means for consultants
• 22:15 – Where to follow Paul and subscribe to his work

Explore Responsible AI in Marketing

Interested in learning how to use AI ethically and strategically in your marketing practice? Start by subscribing to Paul’s newsletter and check out his content strategy services.

Subscribe to the AI Marketing Ethics Digest

Visit Prescriptive Writing for B2B Services

Tags:

AI in marketing, marketing ethics, digital strategy, Paul Chaney, marketing podcast, AI governance, AI adoption, shadow AI, Duct Tape Marketing

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The Anti-Agency Model: A Bold New Future for Marketing Services with Sara Nay

The Anti-Agency Model: A Bold New Future for Marketing Services with Sara Nay written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Episode Summary

In this game-changing episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, to discuss what they’re calling the Anti-Agency Model. With over 15 years of collaboration, Sara and John unpack the reasons traditional marketing agency models are struggling—and why a system-based, AI-enhanced strategy is the future of small business marketing.

They explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping the marketing landscape and why internal ownership of marketing systems is becoming the new gold standard for business growth, scalability, and even acquisition-readiness.

About Sara Nay

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, a pioneer of the Anti-Agency Model, and a champion of marketing systems for small businesses. With extensive experience as a fractional CMO, trainer, and systems thinker, she is helping shape a new direction for marketing professionals and agencies worldwide.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• Why the traditional marketing agency model no longer works
• How AI is changing the role of agencies and internal teams
• The rise of the “system installer” over the service provider
• Why businesses must own their marketing system internally
• Details of the upcoming Anti-Agency Model Workshop

Key Moments from the Show

• 00:30 – What is the Anti-Agency Model and why now?
• 01:17 – How the current agency model fails businesses and agencies alike
• 03:09 – The misalignment between agency incentives and business goals
• 04:17 – Using AI to elevate—not eliminate—marketers
• 07:30 – The evolution toward system installers and strategic leaders
• 08:46 – The value of the fractional CMO in the new model
• 10:32 – Business owner reactions to the anti-agency concept
• 12:05 – Marketing systems as real business assets
• 13:58 – Adding consistency as the fourth “C” of effective marketing
• 14:52 – Workshop overview: structure, tools, and outcomes
• 16:07 – Licensing a system, not just learning a method
• 17:30 – Who this workshop is designed to help
• 20:17 – Who your ideal client is for this new model
• 21:42 – Learn more at dtm.world/newmodel

Join the Anti-Agency Movement

Learn how to implement this cutting-edge model and license a productized marketing system that can transform your agency or consulting practice. Join the Anti-Agency Model Workshop starting this June.

Register now at dtm.world/newmodel

Tags:

Marketing strategy, AI marketing, Anti-agency model, Fractional CMO, Marketing systems, Small business marketing, Sara Nay, Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

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The Ultimate Buyer’s Guide for Transitioning to Fractional CMO Services

The Ultimate Buyer’s Guide for Transitioning to Fractional CMO Services written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Table of Contents

• Introduction
• Understanding the Fractional CMO Model
• Top Fractional CMO Training Providers
• Program Comparison Table
• Framework Comparisons
• The 4 CMO Models
• Decision-Making Tips
• Implementation Essentials
• Making the Final Decision
• Conclusion
• Additional Resources

Introduction: The Growing Fractional CMO Landscape

The fractional CMO model offers high-level marketing strategy without the cost of a full-time hire. This guide compares training options and helps you choose the right path.

Understanding the Fractional CMO Model

A fractional CMO is a part-time strategic marketing executive. Businesses benefit from cost-effective leadership; consultants enjoy flexibility and high-value roles.

“A fractional CMO is a part-time marketing executive hired by businesses to lead strategy without the full-time cost.” – Casey Stanton, CMOx

Top Fractional CMO Training Providers

Duct Tape Marketing

Offers the Strategy First Leadership Accelerator with a focus on positioning consultants as strategic advisors.

CMOx

Provides a system for acquisition and implementation with a focus on tactical execution and audits.

DigitalMarketer

Delivers digital execution frameworks and the Customer Value Journey for client engagement and conversion.

Program Comparison Table

Provider	Framework	Client Path	Ideal For	Investment	Community
Duct Tape Marketing	Strategy First	Strategy → Retainer	Strategic Consultants	$9,000+	400+ Consultants
CMOx	Functional Marketing	Audit → Tactical Plan	Implementation Experts	$10,000	Facebook Group
DigitalMarketer	Customer Value Journey	90-day Onboarding → Retainer	Digital Specialists	Varies	Certified Partner Network

Framework Comparisons

• Strategy First (DTM): Strategic first, implementation later
• Functional Marketing (CMOx): Audit-driven, systemized execution
• Customer Value Journey (DM): Nurture through digital sales funnel

The 4 Fractional CMO Models

1. Independent: One consultant per client set
2. Agency: CMO as a service via account directors
3. Collective: Shared brand, individual consultants
4. Organized Firm: Team-based resource model

Decision-Making Tips

• Assess your expertise, vision, and client goals
• Ensure programs offer frameworks, tools, support
• Beware of overhyped promises, rigid programs

Implementation Essentials

• Define packages: Strategy-only, hybrid, retainer
• Use pricing tiers: $5k–$15k projects, $3k–$15k retainers
• Acquire clients: Content, referrals, outreach
• Deliver via phased plans: Assess → Plan → Execute

Making the Final Decision

Choose a program that fits your strategic goals, comfort with methodology, and ROI expectations. Community support is critical.

“It’s time to stop selling your time—and start selling your expertise.” – John Jantsch

Conclusion

Fractional CMO work is a strategic evolution for consultants and agencies. Select the right program, apply a repeatable framework, and scale your impact and income sustainably.

Additional Resources

• Books: The Fractional CMO Method, Duct Tape Marketing
• Communities: CMOx Group, DTM Network
• Podcasts: Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, The Fractional CMO Show
• Tools: Strategy First templates, CVJ maps, audit docs

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Why Tiny Experiments Might Be the Key to Sustainable Success

Why Tiny Experiments Might Be the Key to Sustainable Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Why Tiny Experiments Are the Antidote to Goal Obsession with Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Host: John Jantsch | Guest: Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Book: Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World

Website: NessLabs.com

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch talks with neuroscientist, writer, and entrepreneur Anne-Laure Le Cunff about her new book Tiny Experiments. Learn how small, curiosity-led experiments can help you break free from rigid goal-setting, reclaim personal agency, and foster innovation in your business and life.

Listen to the episode:

Episode Summary

Anne-Laure shares her personal story of walking away from a fast-track career at Google following a health scare that shifted her priorities. Through her experience in neuroscience and her work at Ness Labs, she developed the concept of “tiny experiments”—low-stakes, curiosity-driven practices that help individuals and businesses adapt, learn, and grow without fear of failure.

This episode dives into the difference between goals and experiments, how to apply scientific thinking to daily challenges, and why AI can be a powerful thinking partner in this journey.

About the Guest: Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Anne-Laure is a neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and the founder of Ness Labs, a platform for mindful productivity and creativity. Her weekly newsletter is read by over 100,000 people worldwide. Before pursuing a PhD in neuroscience, she led global marketing initiatives at Google. Her new book, Tiny Experiments, helps readers design more flexible, reflective approaches to progress and learning.

Key Takeaways

• Traditional goals can create a binary mindset of success or failure—tiny experiments shift the focus to learning.
• Announcing goals publicly can backfire by providing premature satisfaction.
• The “I will [action] for [duration]” format is the foundation of a tiny experiment.
• Applying experimentation in business encourages innovation and reduces fear of failure.
• AI can serve as a 24/7 thought partner to challenge assumptions and prompt creativity.
• Curiosity-driven intelligence can help us better understand internal and external challenges.

Episode Highlights & Timestamps

• 00:01 – Introduction to Anne-Laure and the concept behind Tiny Experiments
• 02:13 – How a health scare triggered Anne-Laure’s career shift
• 04:03 – Why we’re obsessed with goals—and how it can be harmful
• 06:11 – The myth of public accountability: Why telling people your goals might not help
• 07:11 – What exactly is a tiny experiment?
• 08:23 – Reframing weight loss or health goals as experiments
• 10:20 –  Applying the PACT framework to business and marketing
• 12:14 – How fear of failure—and fear of success—affect experimentation
• 14:21 – Practicing curiosity-driven intelligence in life and business
• 18:05 – Using AI as a tool for reflection and experiment design
• 18:52 – Personal stories: How tiny experiments shaped Anne-Laure’s life and work
• 20:27 – Where to connect with Anne-Laure and learn more

Resources and Links

• Ness Labs – Anne-Laure’s platform for mindful productivity
• Subscribe to the Ness Labs Newsletter
• Buy the Book: Tiny Experiments

Check out more insightful episodes at DuctTapeMarketing.com/podcast.

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Human Connection Is a Growth Tactic

Human Connection Is a Growth Tactic written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Johnathan Grzybowski

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jonathan Grabowski, co-founder and Chief Marketing Officer at Penji, a leading on-demand design platform offering unlimited design services. Jonathan shares how Penji scaled from a small agency to a 500-person organization by centering its approach on customer experience, empathy in business, and a highly streamlined design process.

We explored the critical role human connection plays in delivering standout creative services and how businesses can blend technology, like AI in design, with genuine human interaction to create lasting brand value. Whether you’re trying to build a more strategic brand identity, improve visual branding, or just make smarter hires, Jonathan’s insights are a blueprint for real, human-centric business growth.

Key Takeaways:

• Empathy Drives Loyalty: Great design isn’t just visual—it’s emotional. Businesses that prioritize empathy and connection in their creative workflow deliver more impactful results.

• Systematized Creativity Wins: Scaling graphic design services without sacrificing quality means systematizing processes while maintaining personal client touchpoints.

• Fire Clients to Grow: Jonathan argues that knowing when to part ways with clients is a critical part of healthy marketing strategy and long-term growth.

• AI Is a Tool, Not a Replacement: While Penji leverages AI in design to improve speed and efficiency, the company thrives on the human elements—context, strategy, and empathy—that AI can’t replicate.

• Design With a Purpose: Whether it’s developing a brand identity or executing one-off projects, businesses should approach design as a strategic asset, not a reactive task.

• Customer Experience Is a Differentiator: Penji’s edge comes from embedding empathy and personalized communication in every client interaction.

• Hiring Designers Thoughtfully: Instead of focusing only on technical skills, look for team members who understand business goals, communication, and collaboration.

Chapters:

• 00:09 Introducing Johnathan Grzybowski
• 01:53 The Origin of Penji
• 05:46 How to Establish a Brand Identity
• 08:25 The Human Element of Penji
• 09:47 Penji Success Stories
• 14:13 How AI Affects the Design Workflow

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.942)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is John Grabowski, Jonathan Grabowski. He's the co-founder and chief marketing officer at Pengey, an on-demand graphic design platform that provides businesses with unlimited custom design services at a flat monthly fee. Pengey connects clients with top tier designers, delivering completed projects within 48 hours.

So we're gonna talk about design, graphic design, and maybe how AI is impacting that industry as well. So Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Johnathan (00:35.032)

Thank you so much for having me. I've been a fan and we've known each other for some time now and excited to explore the podcast and any questions that you may have.

John Jantsch (00:43.982)

So I started to introduce you as John. I don't think my official name is Jonathan. I've always just been John. Is Jonathan always been your thing or did it ever get shortened?

Johnathan (00:54.24)

Yeah, so yeah, so my there are probably about like three people on planet Earth that call me John like every day. My mother who unfortunately passed away about five ish years or so ago was very, particular about Jonathan and pretty much corrected them and scolded them anytime anybody ever said John. So I've always just been Jonathan, you know.

John Jantsch (01:00.206)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:11.799)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:17.09)

Yeah. Well, you know, we, share a Kansas city connection. So I'll share this story. I was listening to a sports announcer who was calling our quarterback Pat Mahomes. and the other announcer says his mother has scolded me frequently. is Patrick. so he shares that as well with his mother. So

Johnathan (01:33.002)

Nice. That's great. And I do have a little bit something over you being that we beat you guys in the Super Bowl this past year.

John Jantsch (01:43.83)

Yeah, that wasn't very fun to watch, I'll give you that. the name Pengey, it's probably on your website somewhere. Anytime I see like a kind of a different, unique name, was there some story behind that?

Johnathan (01:47.415)

Heh heh.

Johnathan (01:59.318)

Yeah, great question. I don't really share too much about it because people aren't as curious as you may think. So when we first started, we had this idea of like, well, if you were to slow down the name PNG, you would ultimately lead to a particular file extension that is related to graphic design.

John Jantsch (02:05.38)

No, that's true.

John Jantsch (02:23.31)

Huh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. What is that programable network graphic or something? I can't even remember. Yeah.

Johnathan (02:28.811)

And so.

Yes, exactly right. So it's pretty much PNG. Now, PNG speeding it up, of course, and that's related to the graphic design. So although we are originally a graphic design company, we've kind of morphed into more of like a creative services that expand well beyond, but kind of paying respect to the graphic design aspect that it is PNG, but it technically came from PNG.

John Jantsch (02:56.612)

Well, now I'm really glad I asked that question because that's a great story. know, a of times people are like, yeah, I just saw it there. heard it and I thought it sounded cool. The domain was available, but that's a great story. All right.

Johnathan (02:59.992)

Yeah.

Johnathan (03:04.959)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, I remember very vividly, it was like 12, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning when my co-founder and I were talking about it we're just like, you know, putting things together and that was the one that stuck. So.

John Jantsch (03:17.156)

That's awesome. So was there any particular vision? Like, you know, a lot of people start companies because like I couldn't find good graphic design myself. So I started a company. there, was there any story or vision like that?

Johnathan (03:30.166)

Yeah, I would say...

I'm not a graphic designer. So, and we were a digital marketing agency. We sucked. Um, we probably didn't use the duct tape marketing system, uh, in order for us to grow. Uh, we were terrible. So we basically, uh, but the one thing that people always said was we were really good at graphic design. And then we decided to kind of like niche down and say, this is our, this is what we're selling. We turned it into a product high service.

and it obviously focused very heavily on graphic design. Obviously now it's a little bit more expanded beyond just graphic design as the world of AI and marketing as a whole, it becomes necessary. finding people, finding reliable people, hiring people is a pain in the absolute butt. It's terrible. I don't like hiring people simply because of

There's so many aspects of it. The emotional aspect is this person a good product fit into the culture of the business? Are they actually good at their job? Are they just telling you that they're good at their job even though they're not good at their job? I mean, there's a lot of fundamental factors. So like what if there was a solution where you could go onto a website, hire immediately and find and talk to somebody who is reliable and good, inherently good at what they could do and can pretty much turn things around within the timeframe that you're looking for.

That is really the ethos behind Penge and how it started. It's just like, we got good at one particular thing. We got credit for it, turned it into a business and here we are today.

John Jantsch (05:08.285)

And I think the last time you and I talked, I mean, it's not just you and another person sitting around a room anymore, right? I mean, it's you've built quite an organization.

Johnathan (05:16.95)

Yeah, I mean, at this point, we have over just about 500 people and we have thousands of customers all across the country, all across the world. And the problems that I had then, just getting it off the ground, now the problems are completely different. And they're more meaningful and impactful because if you make a mistake, you have lives of other people that are going to be hurt or be

better off because of your decision making. then so it's just systematically you have to become more systematic and more thoughtful in your approach to every day rather than just kind of be like, hey man, what are we doing today? Like

John Jantsch (05:56.632)

Right. So, you know, I've preached for years strategy before tactics. A lot of people view even design projects, know, we need a brochure. We need a banner. We need a logo. And there's really no thought given to it. It's just like, yeah, okay. I like that one. How do you help businesses kind of establish maybe a brand identity as opposed to just doing one off projects?

Johnathan (06:21.09)

Yeah, I mean, that's actually a pretty hard thing because a lot of times our customers don't necessarily have like they primarily most of our customers already have existing brands in addition to they are actually digital marketing agencies. So from like a business standpoint, we assess it no differently than a than a typical project. The core differentiation, in my opinion, if you were to hire like a service like PENGIE versus that of like an agency, an agency is probably going to be able to sit down and talk to you and kind of go over like the fundamental

John Jantsch (06:32.398)

Yes.

John Jantsch (06:46.852)

Yeah, give you a creative brief. Yeah.

Johnathan (06:48.696)

Correctly. Creative Breeze can talk to you for several hours and be able to do that. We're very factual with what it is that you're looking for and we're very project oriented or visual oriented. So if you have a new company, it's the art director's job to find out more about your company. And then you have to provide us a visual. And what I found personally is that, and maybe you could attest to this too, John, like, if somebody just tells you, I want this and you're like,

Well, what the hell does this look like? correct, correct, correct. That is like literally the worst thing that you can say on planet Earth. Like, I know when I say, OK, well, that's really nice to hear that. But like, listen, bro, I need something in your brain. I need a sliver of your brain to understand what the hell you're trying to do. So we start there first. And if you can't provide a visual, to be honest with you, we don't really want you as a client.

John Jantsch (07:20.356)

I'll know it when I see it.

John Jantsch (07:41.656)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnathan (07:48.248)

Because like you're going to fail in Pengey. And honestly, like that's the biggest piece of Pengey's success and lack thereof is the the customers not communicating efficiently and effectively. And you would be surprised at how bad at times entrepreneurs and business professionals are at communicating. And what I found is that the designers are actually the best like

the teams aspects like the when a designer works at as a customer works at Pengey, they're the best customers because they have the empathy and the understanding that is needed to articulate a project. Whereas like a founder is very like, I need this done, I need it done tomorrow, I need it done right now, and it needs to be done, you know, in 1080p, the 18 different styles and please give it to me ASAP. Like, and those are great customers and they can work but.

John Jantsch (08:18.404)

you

Johnathan (08:45.032)

communication is so, important.

John Jantsch (08:49.39)

So do you find that you either you don't, I mean, you fire that customer or do you find that you are moving a little more towards being a consultant on brand strategy?

Johnathan (09:03.33)

Yeah, think there's a well, so number one, my claim to fame is that I fired more customers than people. And I'm very quick to be able to say, listen, this isn't a good fit. And it's OK. I think I think that discipline is really important when it comes to business. If you focus all of your time and energy on the loudest customers and problems, I don't think you will ever complete anything ever because you always just be putting out fires.

John Jantsch (09:24.141)

Yes.

Johnathan (09:31.01)

But when it comes to the consultancy, yeah, I think that's like a core differentiation between us and like probably our competitors is that there's a human aspect. And I think that's like the approach that we're looking for is the human element of talking to our customers, understanding them, getting, letting them know that the project is completed or the project is being worked on. And that is kind of like the differentiation between us and like AI. You can easily use AI.

John Jantsch (09:57.506)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (09:59.254)

And it works great. Like we use the AI at Pengey all the time. But I think the reason why you sign up for a service like Pengey is because you want that human interaction.

John Jantsch (10:09.828)

Do you have, and I do want to dive into the AI a little bit. I didn't want to go straight there though. So set the table a little more. Do you have any examples of that you can think of and you don't have to share names if you don't want to, but where the work that you've done, your team's done has kind of significantly impacted a brand's perception or maybe even success.

Johnathan (10:31.606)

Yeah, there is a two things, a very, I'll try to say it without saying it, very reputable university and institution that is located in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania that we have worked with for multiple years, created slideshows.

presentations basically, where the presentations were then presented to making change internally within the infrastructure of the business. So I can't necessarily go into detail, but if you kind of use my words, you can kind of put two and two together. We've instrumentally made the presentations that were made and the conversations that we had with that team has made significant

changes in the business structure, the acquisition of multiple other institutions and hospitals and things like that. And then in addition to that, serving people that have illnesses and things like that. has that's just one from in like a feel good type of one. Then there's another one that's also located in Philadelphia, which I'm not going to be able to go into with the specific name, but it is a delivery service.

John Jantsch (11:45.891)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (11:55.63)

where we pretty much were able to incrementally help their brand from beginning to I would say very close to IPO. I don't necessarily know if what we did specifically orchestrated the growth of what it is because I think a lot of it has to do with strategy. But from a visual standpoint and the advertising and execution behind that advertising allowed that company to grow exponentially.

John Jantsch (12:25.38)

Yeah, I think a lot of businesses, most businesses quite frankly, really underestimate the value of the visual aspects of their brand. And I think that, I think it can make a huge difference. It doesn't mean you have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on, was H &R Blocks, another Kansas City company, they years ago redid it and they basically, their new logo was this square green block. You've probably seen it because they use it now.

And I was talking to their marketing person and they'd spent $150,000 on that logo. And I was like, it's a square green block. But, but I do think that companies, you know, who really get that idea, you know, are willing to invest and do spend a lot of money on the right look and the right feel because it supports the overall message. then, you know, ultimately makes people feel good about doing business with the company.

Johnathan (12:56.994)

Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Johnathan (13:16.086)

Yeah, I would actually like on on the slight contrary, I would say I would love to understand the amount of money that was wasted on the on indecisions of, you know, founding partners or executives and things like that. Because I think that's like where kind of in my opinion, that's where the beauty of PNG is, is because it decreases the inefficiencies of the actual graphic design process. So like, you could have easily asked for within a month's time frame, you could easily ask for

John Jantsch (13:24.171)

sure.

John Jantsch (13:28.356)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (13:39.225)

Yeah.

Johnathan (13:44.622)

500 different variations of the of the H &R block square and I can almost guarantee you that there's something in there that's going to be moderately decent if not the the one But yeah, I find it interesting as well

John Jantsch (13:52.964)

Yeah, Yeah, but you didn't, you didn't do focus groups and you know, mean.

Johnathan (14:02.21)

Yeah, I mean, that's a different ball game, right? Like, that's just like that's that's a client that I would say we love the revenue. But at the same time, I don't know if I want to get involved in it because there's just so much emotion that that's just not the company, you know.

John Jantsch (14:12.034)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:17.4)

Well, and of course, you know, when they, the other thing with the company that's that, that publicly known too, when they rolled it out, then they had to take all kinds of crap about it. know, it's like, I can't believe that.

Johnathan (14:25.924)

gosh, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's always interesting, the world of marketing nowadays of how sensitive a lot of people are in social media. I think it's OK to have opinions, obviously, but like, man, like one bad thing could absolutely destroy a company. And that is actually very true in the world of business, too. If you're not making the right decisions, one wrong move can just fundamentally destroy trust, can fundamentally destroy

John Jantsch (14:34.244)

Yeah.

Johnathan (14:54.891)

the business and myself and my co-founder hold that to very high regard.

John Jantsch (14:56.056)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:00.334)

Let's talk a little bit about AI. know, the AI graphic tools are getting better, but I still think that they are not there to where like the normal user could just, you know, grab anything and have a whole set of, of, you know, images and visuals. What tools are you adopting? What tools, I mean, how are you using AI in the whole design workflow?

Johnathan (15:24.012)

Yeah, we love AI. We use AI every single day. Are there specific tools? None that I could say. But when it comes to internally, we use AI for pretty much everything. However, I don't feel the I'm not afraid of AI terminating a business like ours, because I think from a business standpoint, one of two things

John Jantsch (15:27.172)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:39.15)

Right.

Johnathan (15:52.896)

We as humans are very human driven creatures and want that human interaction regardless. And right now, as you said, and I don't think even in the next five, 10 years, unless there's some type of way in order to get people to think for you, you need a human being to submit these AI prompts and you need AI to at least make modifications. Even if you use do it yourself models, there needs to be some human touching it. So

John Jantsch (15:56.536)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (16:22.07)

With that said, I don't think there'll ever be a need for full on AI specifically, but I do think that it's a necessary tool for that every company should be implementing right now.

John Jantsch (16:37.038)

about designers? mean, you hire a lot of designers, you probably talk to thousands of folks that want to, you know, kind of come into your stable. Do you have any advice that somebody who's learning design, you know, today about embracing AI or how like their relationship with AI needs to be?

Johnathan (16:55.35)

Yeah. I mean, I think you'd be foolish not to use it to be honest with you. mean, like, for example, if a client comes up to us and says, Hey, I need a, a project, right. Done. Okay, cool. I need it done 12 hours. Well, we could use AI, right. And give them at least like 90 % of where it needs to be. Ask the client, Hey, what's the stat? Like, what do you think of this? And then make them the proper modifications in order to, in order to make it 100 % custom and unique to the person. that is at times how we use AI.

John Jantsch (16:58.104)

Yeah, yeah.

Johnathan (17:26.016)

It just depends on a case by case basis. But again, you can't, in my opinion, I don't think you can make anything custom directly from AI. It's passable at best. And it can be used if you're okay with the ultimate solution. But if you want something on brand and if you want something specific to your company, it just, right now at least, you need a human being.

John Jantsch (17:50.018)

Yeah, if nothing else, think, you know, I still find that the human being is going to bring empathy, is going to bring strategy, is going to bring context. You know, a lot of times design has to be done in the context of a family of designs or the context of, you know, what the service offering is. And I think that at least for right now, we're certainly not there with AI.

Johnathan (18:14.102)

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I mean, like, I think the best phrase to use in this and I kind of say this at times to some, like to our salespeople is like, imagine going into AI and saying, Hey, could you please put a photo of a family? Right? Like the word family is so different to so many people. You know, it could be a man and a woman, it could be same sex, like family, it could be you and a dog, like it doesn't really

John Jantsch (18:30.404)

You

Johnathan (18:42.946)

there's no boundaries to that. And I think like that's where you said, John, very, very eloquently is like the empathy behind it is the understanding of like, who is your target audience? Who are the people that you're trying to go to? So I would say like, if a designer is listening right now and they're trying to figure out themselves, well, how do I take my business to the next level? I would say understand the other person's business to the fullest extent and have some level of empathy and conversation skills that you can display to understand the company in full.

because that's why people are actually buying. They're not necessarily buying. In our business, they're probably buying because of the service because it's very obvious. Hey, you get unlimited graphic design for this particular cost. like for our business specifically, it's very numbers driven and very like direct, right? But I would say for a business or like an agency or something like that, they're probably buying you, right? Now in our world, they're buying the product, but they're staying because of the human. And that's...

John Jantsch (19:33.55)

Yeah.

Johnathan (19:41.398)

a little bit of a different buying process, but at the same, it's still we're buying from other people. We're staying because we love X person or X designer. And I think if you were to look at our reviews versus our competitors, we get reviews pretty much one to two times a day from every other day, at least from our customers. And it's because of how we make them feel. But if you were to look at the landscape, there isn't a single company

that's genuinely writing reviews about the service, except for a business like ours because of the way the emotional reaction that our customers are having to our team.

John Jantsch (20:18.648)

You know, it's interesting. I've, I, you know, we, we review companies reviews as part of our strategy process. I've read millions of reviews and it I'm struck by how often, how, how infrequently the company's actually mentioned. It's always rusty fixed my boiler and he was amazing. he was like, I don't even know the name of the company. and I think that people really, underestimate the, the, that experience is such a big part of, of getting that positive reaction.

Johnathan (20:35.496)

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Johnathan (20:47.662)

Yeah, I mean, just look at all the best companies in the world. I mean, you have Disney, right? Like my father's in Disney. This is why I brought it up without us. And I think he's a selfish piece of crap for going there by himself and not inviting me. No, I'm just kidding. When you leave Disney World, like you feel, wow, man, they made my child feel so happy, right? Or, man, I feel like a kid again. Like these are all things that you're constantly thinking about. And if we can alleviate just like an

John Jantsch (20:59.172)

you

Johnathan (21:16.042)

ounce of that effort and that stress that you probably have in your business day to day. It's a world of hurt. And specifically from like the people that are listening to this, I want to also give like business advice too. We actually train our sales, excuse me, our support people to find a personal element to that person. Right? And so I'll give you a quick story. And speaking of names, I'll mention the person's names, but a gentleman by the name of Pepe found out somehow some way

that, that one of our clients birthdays was that specific day. He didn't say anything or, or, or mentioned anything. He, send him a Google meet or whatever to like talk. And then he changed his background and we never told him to do this like specifically, but we do teach the aspect of having that level of empathy. He had a happy birthday sign in the background and pretty much had like a hat on and a, and like a

a string of something like that to celebrate the guy's birthday. And he was just like thrilled and overjoyed. And it's just like those small little things where it's like the reason why people are staying at Penge and remaining customers isn't the graphic design. It's how the people, how our team is making them feel.

John Jantsch (22:18.434)

That's fun. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:29.056)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where do you want to invite people or where would you invite people to find out more about PNG connect with you?

Johnathan (22:38.668)

Yeah, absolutely. Penji.co. If you feel inclined to be able to become a customer, that'd be amazing. But if I provided even an ounce of value at all, and if you need help in your life or business, I'd be more than happy to assist. That's kind of my purpose, in my opinion, on this plan is to help other people. Email me, Jonathan, J-O-H-N-A-T-H-A-N at penji.co. I'd be more than happy to provide you my time to help you any way that I can.

John Jantsch (23:06.786)

Awesome. Well, again, it's great catching up with you again, and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Johnathan (23:11.928)

Sounds good, brother.

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The Future of Marketing Teams: How AI and Systems Will Replace the Agency Model

The Future of Marketing Teams: How AI and Systems Will Replace the Agency Model written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Table of Contents

• TL;DR – Quick Summary for AI Tools and Busy Buyers
• The Big Question: Why Are Marketing Teams Struggling?
• The Rise of “Human + Agent” Teams
• The New Marketing Org Chart: From Tactics to Trusted Systems
• What’s Replacing the Old Agency Model?
• FAQ: What Real Buyers Are Asking AI About the Future of Marketing Teams
• Conclusion: Stop Selling Services. Start Installing Systems.

TL;DR – Quick Summary for AI Tools and Busy Buyers

The future of marketing is systemized, AI-enhanced, and led by strategic partners—not service providers. Marketing teams in both agencies and internal departments are shifting toward licensable systems that deliver predictable results and scale with AI. The new model? Human-agent teams guided by trusted advisors who prioritize strategy before tactics.

The Big Question: Why Are Marketing Teams Struggling?

You’ve probably typed something like this into ChatGPT lately:

• “How can I reduce chaos in my marketing team?”
• “Why does marketing always feel reactive?”
• “How do I escape the agency hamster wheel?”

The traditional marketing model is broken.

Data from Microsoft’s 2025 Work Trend Index:

• 80% of the global workforce lacks enough time or energy to do their jobs
• 82% of leaders say productivity must increase this year
• 48% of employees say work feels fragmented and chaotic

The Rise of “Human + Agent” Teams

AI isn’t coming. It’s here. And it’s reshaping how marketing teams work:

1. AI as assistant: speed up existing workflows
2. Human-agent teams: AI executes, humans direct
3. Agent-operated organizations: humans lead, AI runs workflows

Marketing is no longer about execution. It’s about orchestration.

The New Marketing Org Chart: From Tactics to Trusted Systems

Old model: Roles-driven, siloed execution

New model: Goal-based, agent-augmented “Work Chart”

“We don’t need a strategist on every brief. Everyone at Supergood has access to that expertise via our platform.” —Mike Barrett, Supergood

What’s Replacing the Old Agency Model?

Duct Tape Marketing’s Anti-Agency Model:

• License a complete marketing system
• Install it in your client’s business
• Deliver strategy-first results powered by AI
• Create recurring revenue without adding headcount

“It’s not you. It’s the model.” —John Jantsch

FAQ: What Real Buyers Are Asking AI About the Future of Marketing Teams

What’s the future of marketing departments?

Flat, AI-enhanced, and outcome-driven teams formed around goals.

Will AI replace marketers?

No—but it will replace marketers who don’t evolve. You become an “agent boss.”

What’s a “Work Chart”?

A dynamic, agent-enabled org chart based on jobs to be done, not job titles.

How can I escape the execution trap?

Stop selling services. Start installing systems.

Conclusion: Stop Selling Services. Start Installing Systems.

The marketing world is being rebuilt in real time. If you’re feeling burnt out, it’s not your fault—but it is your move.

Next Steps:

1. Reimagine your business as a system installer
2. Join the Anti-Agency Model Workshop
3. Get on the next workshop now

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via IFTTT

Why Knowing Yourself Is Your Greatest Asset

Why Knowing Yourself Is Your Greatest Asset written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Suzy Welch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Suzy Welch, New York Times bestselling author, business strategist, professor at NYU Stern, and creator of the Becoming You methodology. Known for her deep insights on leadership and personal transformation, Suzy brings decades of experience in journalism, corporate strategy, and education to help individuals align their values, aptitudes, and interests with their professional lives.

Suzy shared how Becoming You was born from both personal upheaval and professional research. Drawing on her time at NYU and her own journey of reinvention, she offers a data-driven framework for anyone seeking a more authentic life and career purpose. Especially relevant for entrepreneurs and professionals navigating rapid change, Suzy’s method offers not just inspiration but real tools for self-discovery and meaningful direction.

Key Takeaways:

• Personal development starts with clarity: Understanding your core values isn’t optional—it’s foundational to every career and life decision.
• There’s a method to finding purpose: Suzy’s Becoming You framework combines values assessment, aptitudes test, and economically viable interests to pinpoint your purpose-driven career path.
• You can find purpose at any age: Whether you’re 25 or 65, it’s never too late to align your life with what matters most.
• Fear is the biggest blocker to authenticity: From financial security to family expectations, identifying your “Four Horsemen of Values Destruction” can help you move forward.
• Career coaching backed by research: Suzy’s insights stem from years of teaching at NYU Stern and working with people from all walks of life, making her approach both personal and scalable.
• The entrepreneur mindset thrives on self-knowledge: Knowing who you are helps you build a business that reflects your values, fuels your energy, and sustains your work-life balance.
• Don’t wait for crisis: You don’t need to hit rock bottom to start living authentically. The time to start becoming you is now.

Chapters:

• 00:09 Introducing Suzy Welsh
• 01:24 What Inspired Becoming You
• 03:02 Finding Your Purpose
• 07:07 Moving Past the Fear of Finding Your Purpose
• 00:10:25 Discovering Your Aptitudes
• 13:26 The Balance Between Joy and Financial Security
• 14:47 Finding You at Any Age
• 16:56 Impact of AI on the Workplace

More About Suzy Welch: 

• Check out Suzy Welch’s Website
• Connect with Suzy Welch on Instagram

Duct Tape Transcript

Email Download New Tab

John Jantsch (00:00.952)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Susie Welch. She is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. With a background in journalism and business strategy, she rose to prominence co-authoring business books with her late husband, Jack Welch, the former CEO of GE. We're going talk about her new book today, Becoming You, the Proven Method for Crafting Your Authentic

life and careers. So Suzy, welcome to the show.

Suzy Welch (00:33.75)

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

John Jantsch (00:36.172)

You bet. Now you, speaking of career, have had a very diverse career. I did a little looking into your background and you were actually a reporter on crime in Miami in the eighties. So that means you personally know Don Johnson, right?

Suzy Welch (00:40.718)

Well, it's cause I'm old. It's cause I'm old. mean, it's like, you know, you hang around, you hang around a while and it happens.

Suzy Welch (00:53.656)

Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was.

Suzy Welch (01:01.13)

Yeah, know, I wish I did, but I do not. But you know, that show, Miami Vice, was not wrong. I mean, those were the years I was there. And I mean, look, it wasn't as glamorous for us young, underpaid reporters, but the level of violence was, that's what we experienced for sure.

John Jantsch (01:07.004)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:18.67)

Well, let's talk a little bit about your book then. You've obviously written or been involved in writing books on a lot of topics. Becoming you to me feels very deeply personal. So is there anything about what's going on now in the world that kind of made you say, is the time for this book?

Suzy Welch (01:41.198)

Yes and yes and yes and yes. I wrote Becoming You because I teach a class by the same name at NYU Stern School of Business. It's extremely popular class and it's funny when we first offered it a couple of years ago, the thought was, well, here's an experiment. Let's offer a class that I had created that helps people figure out how to live their authentic lives. And it was an experiment. It was like, let's see who signs up. And then...

What happened was everybody did. And there was a crazy amount of interest in this class. It just so happened we were coming out of the pandemic and people were asking, what's it all about? Why do I work? Where do I work? How do I work? What does work anyway? And I had a class based on a methodology which I'd 15 years developing that helped answer those questions for you. Was it personal? Yes, because one, it's the culmination of my life's work.

John Jantsch (02:07.598)

Yeah.

Suzy Welch (02:34.058)

drawn a lot out of my PhD thesis. So it's very personal in that this work is stuff I've been doing research on for a long time. But it was personal because after my husband passed away, I had to figure out who I was as well. And so I always say that I was becoming used first beta tester. It worked for me. And now it's been now it's been tested thousands of times and used by thousands of people. And so it's not just my methodology, it's been shared with the world in ways that are really, wonderful and humbling.

So it's personal, but it's also not just for me at all.

John Jantsch (03:08.878)

So, you you talked about coming out of the pandemic and I think the pandemic really accelerated a lot of things. But I, you know, I've been in business 30 years and I've seen a hunger, a growing hunger. It used to be tamped down. Like, no, we don't talk about our personal lives. We don't talk about what we want. We just go to work, you know, and that's what business is. And I've seen over 30 years a growing hunger for people wanting to have that conversation more.

in business. And I'm wondering if you think that that has anything to do with the popularity. I mean, the business school doesn't offer a lot of that kind of training.

Suzy Welch (03:41.728)

I think that there's two different things going on. actually come, I've been in business 40 years and I would say that there was a lot more talking about our personal lives at work in the old days when there were no boundaries. And now the younger generation is, don't want to talk about my personal life, but you know, get out of my business. Okay. So I do think that there's sort of a, there's darker boundaries for Jen.

Z, I just taught a class, I also teach management at NYU and we had this exact conversation the other day. I do think that the conversation that's happening much more that did not happen before was about purpose. It was like purpose, you're lucky if you get it. And now people are much more likely to say after I think the pandemic accelerated a conversation where people said, I don't want to wait until I'm 65 to start living.

I wanna live right now. Now, many of your listeners are entrepreneurs and they've already made that decision. And they've said, I wanna live right now. I wanna design my own life. I want high agencies, what we call it in the Becoming You methodology. And I think that all the conversation around purpose is great. As long as you don't get frustrated by it. Because what typically happens in this conversation, John, is that people say, you should find and live your purpose. And everybody goes, yeah. And then there's no how, how do you do it? And so part of the...

Part of the reason I love becoming you, and I wanna be coy about it, I really love the methodology, is because it's the how. It says, okay, you wanna live your purpose, here's how. Figure out your values. That's really, really hard, but go ahead and do it. Here's our seven exercises. Figure out your aptitude. Here are four exercises for that. And figure out your economically viable interests. Here are two exercises for that. You cannot just conjure up your purpose. And if you don't do work to figure out what your purpose is, you'll spend your whole life looking for it. And then you'll hit it.

And you'll kind of be in your forties or fifties or sixties and you'll say, gee, I wish I'd known this 20 years ago. so I do think that, you know, look, search for purpose, it's as old as time. mean, like the Iliad, which was this, know, 1700 years old talks about search for purpose. so people have always been talking about it. think the change now, the freedom is that we're able to freely say, I want to live a life of purpose.

John Jantsch (05:46.222)

Yeah, there's sections, entire sections of bookstores, entire industry, you know, on that whole idea of find your purpose. I think you're right. That's a, frustrated is a great word because I see so many people saying, I'm being told to do that and I don't know how. I think that that's really, that really is the...

Suzy Welch (06:02.85)

Yeah, it's so annoying. My whole book is an answer to that because I think it's so woo woo and annoying. And it's like, please tell the people how to find their purpose. What ends up happening in these books that are about purpose is that they're just long stories about people who found their purpose. And it's like, no, there's actually a methodology. Let's just put it to work. Either you can do it over the course of your life or you can do it faster. I like the faster version.

John Jantsch (06:30.186)

Let me propose this idea, and you can feel free to bat it down completely or amplify it. Does the search sometimes allow it to find you?

Suzy Welch (06:45.006)

I have to think about that for a second. Yeah, I mean, it will find you eventually because the arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity. Eventually we become authentic because we cannot hold our breath our entire lives long. So eventually we become authentic unless the Grim Reaper gets us first. So we want to be authentic and we will keep on inching and crawling towards it. Sometimes it comes and finds us and we say the call of this purpose is so loud I can't ignore it.

I think it's sometimes we meet in the middle, John. You know, we get a sense of what it is and we kind of creep towards it and then it comes galloping at us and we have to make a decision about whether we're gonna have the courage to live it.

John Jantsch (07:24.366)

Yeah, again, you're writing my questions for me. no, no, it makes for a beautiful conversation. I was going to bring up fear. And I think that that, a lot of times people find this thing and we're like, Oh God, but I can't. So how do you get past that fear?

Suzy Welch (07:28.262)

No, sorry, not that!

Suzy Welch (07:42.534)

you, okay, so that's the work of our life. I mean, you're welcome to humanity. I call these the four horsemen of values destruction. It's all fear. The first is economic security. Or if I do this, I'll never survive. And that's a totally legitimate thing to fear if you've got kids and a mortgage and a life. But you know, everybody who's ever lived their purpose took a big leap and said, if I want it badly enough, the money will come. And so then the second is expectations. That's fear also. I can't do this.

My parents would never approve her. People like me don't do this. I had a student one time, we did the becoming you methodology in the class and she came up to me in the last day and she said, every single thing we've done in this class leads to me being a Roomba teacher. And I said, that's beautiful. And she said, I can't do that. I have an MBA. And I said, I was unaware of the legislature that prohibited MBAs from teaching Roomba. And she said, no, what would my parents say? What would my classmates say? And I said, who cares what they say.

John Jantsch (08:29.23)

Yeah.

Suzy Welch (08:36.526)

It's your life. Anyway, she went on to work in consulting. so then the other, then there's events. Events often take us away from living our lives. know, spouse dies or you get a divorce, you get laid off, and then suddenly the life you wanted seems impossible. You can't swim upstream to get it. And then there's just expedience, which oftentimes it's just simply easier than to stepping into fear.

You know, I really want this thing, but it's just easier to keep the life I've got, the B plus life I've got. And so everything gets in the way of us living our purpose, everything. The world is set up for it. And that's why so few people do it.

John Jantsch (09:18.2)

You know, there's a lot of research that shows some of the people that have ultimately made that giant leap kind of had their back against the wall. and it was like, I, I have no choice. whereas being sort of comfortable, makes it harder to make that choice. Would you say there's, anything to, I'm not saying you go out and get your back against the wall, but, some sort of level of being pushed.

Suzy Welch (09:39.894)

I don't want you to do that. No, I don't want you to wait too good because it takes a long time for you to have your back up against the wall. I mean, I think that it's what you say sounds very true. It often is that in the real world, we wait until we have no more choices and other but the alternative is that we just die in the velvet coffin. You know, that's where it's very comfortable. And we just sort of lay down next thing you know, the lid closes. I know that image is ugly, but it's real. And

But I think that you can get away from it if you say, very with a lot of intentionality, I don't want that to happen to me. Let me not wait till I have my back up against the wall. Because by that time, things are usually pretty much a mess. And so there's a way, there's a different way of thinking. That's why I say to my students, and everybody, I I teach becoming you both at NYU, but I also do an open enrollment course and people come from around the world to take becoming you at NYU in our open enrollment. And what I say is,

John Jantsch (10:16.632)

Yeah, yeah.

Suzy Welch (10:31.98)

Look, you can use this tool to just decide to use it right now. And in a couple of days, you'll know what your purpose is because the process takes, you know, it takes a couple hours. Or you can have this tool in your back pocket. And when things start getting a little bit hairy, pull it out and start doing it then. But don't wait until disaster strikes and you've got to jump. It won't be as good.

John Jantsch (10:51.658)

So you break, and I might be missing some here, but you break the book, a great deal of time is spent on values, aptitudes, interests. Where do people usually get that wrong? Is there kind of a universal, like people always miss this part?

Suzy Welch (11:07.416)

They missed them all and thank God that they do because that's why I'm employed. think that, look, people often know their values, but they don't have words for them. That's why I invented the language of values and test for it in the values bridge, which is the tool that I created to help people figure out what their values are ranked one to 15. But values are people often, they don't have language to describe their values and they often live by their parents values or there's partners values. So that's one thing.

Aptitudes is another big problem though. It's not just values because we grow up with people telling us what we're good at or what we should be good at and we don't ever, it takes a long time to find out what we're actually good at because the world eventually tells us. But we can be tested as early as 15 years old to find out what our cognitive aptitudes are. Are we generalists or are we specialists? Are we idea generators or idea processors? mean, there's eight big cognitive aptitudes. They're steady from age 15.

you can be tested for them for $40. I mean, I think it's pretty good money to spend. I know it's not free. And there's a lot of different ways to know. I mean, I have a test that shows whether or not you should be a leader. is just, are aptitudes. I have four different aptitudes. So there's ways to test. But then the one that people generally know a little bit better is their interests. I call them economically viable interests, because it's not just interests. It's interests that can pay you, interests that are part of the economy that are growing. I think the problem there is that

people's aperture is sort of closed. They sort of know of three industries and they sort of, know, and they, but there's 135 industries and there's thousands of different types of jobs. And so sometimes our aperture of how many different kinds of jobs and lives exist gets shut down before it should. So frankly, everybody needs a little bit of help in every area. And some people come in fully loaded knowing their aptitudes, but they don't know their values. And so look, it depends on the person. Everybody can use little tweaking in all the areas.

John Jantsch (12:58.818)

Well, and I think society rewards aptitudes probably more than they do values. mean, you certainly, know, values can certainly take you down probably faster than aptitudes or lack of values.

Suzy Welch (13:05.004)

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah.

Suzy Welch (13:14.186)

You you give a word, you know, this is a great point. You are, that's a very, very apt point is you're paid for your aptitudes generally. Okay. So, and that's why I, the reason why I like becoming you is because it's saying like your purpose lies at the intersection of your values, your aptitudes and your interest. All three matter, not one more than the other. And, and so you've got to figure them all out and see what's at the center of those three spheres.

before you really know what your purpose is. But a lot of times people just end up doing what they're good at, the aptitude's part of it. Why? Because they just are paid for it. And you know, they're like, I kind of hate it, but whatever, it's a job.

John Jantsch (13:52.718)

Well, you talked about the Roomba teacher. Maybe they're well paid. don't know. does there need to be a balance between financial reality and joy? mean, do interests have to be economically viable?

Suzy Welch (14:04.96)

It depends on how much you value. It depends on how much you value money. Everybody has a different value on money and how much they want. There's no one answer to that. There's as many answers to that as there are human beings on the face of the earth. Because when you say, you know, economic security, financial security, for some people, that means they have the money for the rent that month. And I've met those people. They want just enough.

so that they don't even want stuff left over at the end of the year. They've gotten by and that's how much money matters to them. I mean, I know a fisherman who has the most marvelous life. He would want his life. He's so happy and he rides a bike, he raises bees and he fishes and he feeds himself from the land and he doesn't, money is sort of like, means nothing to him, right? And then I've had students who wanted one helicopter per child and that would be economic. so you can't, this is such a customized process for, know, because

John Jantsch (14:48.046)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Suzy Welch (14:57.646)

Everybody values money a different amount. But you got to know the answer. I mean, that's one of the hardest conversations we ever have with ourself because there's a little stink off of wanting a lot of money. You don't want to admit it out loud, but you better admit to yourself and the people who go very close to you, with people with whom you're in relationship, how much it is for you. You got to own it. Otherwise, you're just going to be lying your way to just unhappiness.

John Jantsch (15:20.568)

Yeah. I'm curious, you, because you do the open enrollment and you probably even do some, maybe you even do some personal coaching. but at the school, you probably work with a lot of folks that are looking for their first career, their first job. do you find differences, significant differences in somebody's journey at 20 as opposed to at 40?

Suzy Welch (15:41.004)

I have taught becoming new to people from age 16 to 78. I teach undergraduates, MBAs, executive MBAs, and then in the open enrollment, I teach mothers returning from the workforce, people who have retired who are starting their next chapter. I've taught people at every different stage of life. I think that the unifying thing is that almost no one knows their values no matter where they are. that people are...

there are people in their sixties who say, wait a minute. Yeah, that's what I'm good at. I always had a sense that I was good at that. And so I think that the universal condition that sort of draws everyone together is people are all seeking purpose and have woefully limited data on themselves and are always overjoyed to get that data. And so, I mean, obviously kids who are coming out of the MBA program have got a very high value on affluence because they've got debt to pay. They've got, you know, but look, here's the thing.

John Jantsch (16:28.142)

You

Suzy Welch (16:38.796)

They have different attitudes about how long they're willing to take to pay it off. And if you have a low value of affluence, which is what we call the money value, you'll say, look, if I pay it off in 30 years, I'm happy. And then there's other people who say, I gotta pay it off tomorrow. I can't take it. I don't like that feeling. And so everything, those are both variables.

John Jantsch (16:59.758)

So can you become you at midlife?

Suzy Welch (17:05.227)

You can become you at 99 years old. I mean, I became me at age 60, okay? So, you know, I had a lot of shareholders in Suzy incorporated until that point. And then a lot of things changed in my life and I finally could say, okay, what is it, girl? And so you can become you. I have had so many people go through becoming you at this point. I have seen hundreds of people go become themselves, thousands at this point, become themselves at every different age.

John Jantsch (17:08.568)

You

Suzy Welch (17:33.408)

And so there's, know, it's not over till it's really over. And that's a beautiful thing.

John Jantsch (17:41.336)

So I think this is a record for this year. We were 17 minutes and 46 seconds into the show. I'm going to mention AI for the first time. What impact are you seeing or do you feel will come from the fact that so many careers, many, I mean, jobs have changed, right, over the years, but they're changing so rapidly. I think right now that people are having trouble adjusting to who they want to be, what they want to do. What impact do think that's going to have?

Suzy Welch (17:49.667)

Okay.

Suzy Welch (18:02.712)

crazy.

Suzy Welch (18:08.002)

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so I love AI by the way, I use it every single day. I have seen it changed what I have to do in the classroom and I've stopped asking my students not to use it on questions. I just designed the questions so that AI can't answer them as easily as they could. But it's changing all jobs. So here, I think that AI's impact is that it's gonna keep changing things. There's gonna be this absolute kind of 20 year period where everything gets turned upside down by AI and nobody knows how that's gonna look. So actually,

In that situation, you got to know the only thing you can know, who you are. So if the world keeps on changing, you can't keep changing yourself for the world. You got to know what your values are, your aptitudes are, and your interests are. And then as the world changes, you fit yourself into that place where you belong. It's ever more imperative to know who you are standing still, because the world is changing very quickly.

John Jantsch (18:59.692)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:04.306)

I think it again, maybe this is only a five-year think for the moment, but I really think that those human values are going to be more important as a lot of the aptitudes are actually replaced.

Suzy Welch (19:18.286)

Yeah, I mean, it's very possible that what happens is that technical aptitudes will all be replaced by AI. so really everything, like I was at a conference the other day and a very, very prestigious CEO said, we are running as fast as we can towards experiences because AI will never be able to replace an experience. And so people who are very good, I say that sort of three things account for long-term success in life. And I call it PI, P-I-E,

the quality of your relationships with people, the quality of your ideas and the quality of your execution. And I think at the end of the day, AI is just never going to be able to replace the quality of relationships with people. And it will have ideas. But I just actually had an encounter right before our conversation where I asked AI to do something and give you flat out stupid answer. And so, I mean, it's not there yet with the ideas, but it will get there. And, you know, it's never going to be able to bring a cast role to somebody who's lost a partner.

So I think that, you know, just its ability to get things done in the real world is just, it's going to be left to human beings. So there's room for us, we're not going to go extinct, but nobody knows which way it's going to go. And in that case, it's ever more important for you to know what you value.

John Jantsch (20:32.002)

Yeah, I'm voting for EQ over IQ. How's that? Suzy, again, I appreciate you taking a moment. Is there anywhere you would invite somebody to connect, find out more about your work, certainly about your book?

Suzy Welch (20:35.872)

Okay, I'll vote with you.

Suzy Welch (20:46.604)

Yeah, by all means, go to my website, suzywelsch.com. You can pre-order my book there, or you can follow my newsletter, which is free. You can find out about all the digital tools I have, and you can listen to my podcast, Becoming You. If you're a podcast listener, I'd love to have you come and hear me talk about values, aptitudes, and interests over there. So thank you for giving me the chance to say that.

John Jantsch (21:06.21)

You betcha. Awesome. Again, I appreciate you taking a moment and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Suzy Welch (21:12.718)

That'd be great. Thank you so much for having me, John.

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