Adapting Agencies for the AI Era

Adapting Agencies for the AI Era written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Brent Weaver, CEO of E2M Solutions—the leading provider of white label WordPress, SEO, content, and AI solutions for agencies. Brent shares his view from the front lines of agency evolution as AI, automation, and changing client expectations reshape the digital marketing landscape. They dive into the real impact of AI on agencies, the future of marketing leadership, the enduring value of strategy over tactics, and why human expertise still matters more than ever.

About the Guest

Brent Weaver is the CEO of E2M Solutions, a top white label provider of WordPress, SEO, content, and AI solutions for digital marketing agencies. With deep experience both running and supporting agencies, Brent is a recognized voice on AI, agency growth, and the new skills required to thrive in a fast-changing industry.

• Website: e2msolutions.com
• Email: brent@e2msolutions.com
• AI Event: joinvistara.com

Actionable Insights

• AI is rapidly raising the bar—not just for agencies, but for clients who now expect faster, better results and more transparency.
• The white label model is evolving fast, with providers like E2M embracing “AI first” internal training, education, and even offering fractional AI services to agencies.
• The hype of AI often exceeds reality—experiments abound, but many projects never deliver, so agencies and business owners must remain adaptable and strategic.
• There’s still no “all-in-one” AI marketing operating system, but the industry is heading toward more integrated, seamless solutions.
• SEO is far from dead; but marketers must get creative, focus on proprietary expertise, and optimize for both LLMs and Google—especially for local businesses.
• Human leadership and strategy are more vital than ever. AI makes agencies more competitive, but also increases client expectations and the need for specialization and niche expertise.
• The human element remains central: The future belongs to those who can combine AI tools with strategic thinking, EQ, and deep client understanding.
• Agencies—and marketers—need to retool, learn continuously, and be ready to lead and manage, not just “do.”

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:10 – The Elephant in the Room: AI’s Impact on Agencies
  Brent shares how AI is changing agency operations, results, and client expectations.
• 02:25 – White Labeling in the Age of AI
  How E2M is retooling with “AI First Saturdays,” fractional AI services, and ongoing education.
• 04:46 – Will We Ever Get a True AI Marketing OS?
  The reality (and limits) of current AI tools and what’s coming next.
• 06:18 – The Hype vs. Reality of AI Projects
  Why many AI initiatives fail—and why experimentation is still worth it.
• 08:10 – Is SEO Dead?
  Brent’s take on what’s changed, what still works, and how local and LLM optimization are evolving.
• 11:55 – Why Agencies Are Working Harder, Not Less
  AI may automate, but competition, complexity, and client demands are rising.
• 13:31 – The Human Element and Future-Ready Skills
  Why strategy, specialization, and leadership will define the next era of agency growth.
• 15:17 – AI Agents, Frictionless UX, and What’s Next
  How AI will reshape customer journeys, jobs, and digital marketing roles.
• 18:17 – From Doing to Managing: Evolving Careers and Teams
  The growing need for strategic thinkers, EQ, and continuous learning.

Insights

“AI has raised the bar for agencies and clients alike—faster, better results are expected, but human expertise is still at the center.”

“There’s no magic all-in-one AI solution yet, but those who combine tools with strategy and leadership will win.”

“SEO is evolving, not dying—marketers must focus on unique value, local search, and optimizing for new AI-driven experiences.”

“Agencies need to retool for an AI-first world, but the need for deep specialization, leadership, and EQ is greater than ever.”

“The future of digital marketing belongs to those who can marry the best of AI with strategy, creativity, and relentless learning.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:01.405)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Brent Weaver. He is the CEO of E2M Solutions, the leading provider of white label WordPress SEO content and AI solutions for digital marketing agencies. So guess what we're going to talk about today? We're going to talk about agencies and we're going to talk about digital marketing. So Brent, welcome to the show.

Brent At E2M (00:28.728)

Great to be here. Thanks, John.

John Jantsch (00:30.427)

I did get the title right. Didn't I? You're the CEO currently. Yeah. Okay. I was.

Brent At E2M (00:34.446)

Yeah, yeah. Joined E2M in June of 2025. So I'm wrapping up my ninth week on duty. So it's been a new adventure for me.

John Jantsch (00:40.198)

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

John Jantsch (00:47.197)

Well, E2M is not new necessarily, so it worked with hundreds of agencies. Just in your time and what you've learned or from the folks there, what do you see as some of the biggest changes in the agency landscape right now? And I know it's evolving rapidly, but I'm curious what you're hearing because you pretty much talk to agencies all day long.

Brent At E2M (01:10.722)

Yeah. I mean, the obvious elephant in the room is artificial intelligence and what that's doing both in terms of how agencies are run and also how they're deploying services and also how clients are expecting, you know, what the clients are doing with AI as well. So it's not just like the agency using it, but the clients are using it. So I think some expectations are changing and also speed to results is changing because a client might say, well, Hey, if I can just have AI do this in

three minutes, right? Like, why is it gonna take you three or four days and just kind of working on how to up level your level, know, what you're doing for your clients in terms of results. mean, that bar has certainly been raising very, very quickly in terms of what expectations are. And so I think a lot of agencies are feeling a little bit of squeeze, but at the same time, they're feeling a lot of excitement. So there's that whole topic, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:00.833)

Well, so to tag, I was going to say to tag onto that though, of course, your primary function is to, in most cases, act as a white label support for that agency. So I'm curious, has the white label mode evolved? mean, how are you, because it's affecting agencies. So how's it then in turn affecting what a white label provider like yourself is doing?

Brent At E2M (02:25.614)

And we've really like planted a flag that we want to be an AI first agency. And so we are doing lots of internal, kind of retooling education. have a thing called AI for Saturday where our whole company comes in every first Saturday of the month. some of that time has been dedicated to education, working on projects kind of, you know, within the teams doing demo days, hackathons. and so we're definitely taking AI very seriously. Our team's taking AI very seriously.

we're also doing fractional AI services for agencies. So actually going in and helping the agency implement AI solutions. And so I think it's, you know, people want better results. They want them faster, right? It's kind of like, you know, dealing with Amazon, right? Like people used to think, I ordered something on the internet. It's okay that it takes seven to 10 days to show up, right? But in the post Amazon world, you're like, well, like my kids, for example, they're like, why I ordered this

30 minutes ago, why is it not already at the front door? I think some of that impatience is seeping its way into the business to business service model. And I also think some of that kind of what people expect in terms of a customer centric centered business, like Amazon will give you refunds on just about anything. think customers are expecting some of that for some of their agency customers, but you know, it's certainly having a huge impact on the overall industry.

John Jantsch (03:40.967)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:49.917)

So, since you opened the AI can of worms, I'll go there directly. You know, what I'm seeing a lot of people do is, you know, it's like we're in this wild west days still where there's 473 tools. People are hacking this $20 a month thing together with this $20 a month thing. They're talking about agents and what they can do. What I'm seeing on the business side, the small business side, it's like, okay, I get it. I get it. We need to do AI.

but this is exhausting. And, you know, is, there ever going to be a day you think where some, a business owner can actually buy the full like marketing operating system that is AI run and installed in their business and not, you know, have to lean on their agency to do this and an SEO person to do that with AI to me. And again, I'm, just asking your opinion because it doesn't exist today, but, but I feel like that's where we're going to go.

Brent At E2M (04:42.083)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:46.237)

There's going to be the $5.99 a month solution that's sort of an all in one as opposed to custom this and custom that and custom, you know, whatever.

Brent At E2M (04:56.494)

And perhaps, you know, I think John that the more I've gotten into AI personally and the more Like projects and use cases that I've seen it. It's it's like the more, you know The more you realize you don't know and I certainly think that that's true with AI and and we're seeing a lot of people do some what I would almost consider to be magical things with AI but then there's also this like

maybe they do something where they don't really have the foundational skillset. They're using a tool like lovable and they're doing vibe coding and they build an application that gets to a certain point. And then the client says, well, hey, we actually need this for a business requirement thing to do this other thing. And then all of a sudden that other thing maybe isn't possible within the vibe coding interface. And all of a sudden you have this thing that an agency has spent weeks on in terms of a vibe coding application build.

John Jantsch (05:27.292)

Yeah, yeah.

Brent At E2M (05:49.6)

And then the thing that they needed to do from a business case is not possible within the AI. And so then we're hitting this wall and we have to go, my gosh, we're going to have to completely, we have to build this new ground up without vibe coding in order to make the business case work. I there was a study that said that something like 40 to 60 % of enterprise AI projects, and I should probably have a source on this of them quoted, but 40 to 60 % of AI projects at the enterprise level are being abandoned or never seen the light of day.

John Jantsch (06:18.609)

Yes.

Brent At E2M (06:18.85)

and if we all know, from reading wall street, like how much money is being invested in AI, that means like over half of the investment that major corporations are making are, basically being thrown in the trash. And I I'm seeing that same level of kind of experimentation, happened at the agency level and also at the small business owner level. And so I think there's still, gosh, there's just so much learning that has to be done. And the upside though, is you find an AI, automation or

agentic workflow that, that works, it gets to a hundred percent. it can have game changing impact on the business, right? Like the ROI on it can be, you know, infinity. And so it's certainly worth making these investments, but it doesn't mean that every investment is going to pay off.

John Jantsch (06:51.869)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:57.223)

Peace.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yeah, I think one of the challenges in the the window that we're in right now is, is in some cases, the hype of AI is actually outrunning the reality of it. And I think that a lot of people are like, we can fire everybody and do it all with AI. I mean, you see these people, you know, on Facebook ads, like, I have a $16 billion company and I only have two employees, you know, you're like, you know,

Brent At E2M (07:13.848)

Sure.

Brent At E2M (07:26.982)

They like show this big like screenshot of all their automation crazy I've replaced 64 employees right like maybe I don't know I mean usually I find when you kind of double click on those things and you go in there's there's usually some smoke and mirrors around those things but I don't want to like bash anybody that's

John Jantsch (07:31.482)

You

John Jantsch (07:35.909)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:41.341)

Well, they're 100 % there is. And I think that, you know, it's like all things. It's kind of like taking advantage of the craze is actually making the reality a lot worse and a lot harder for that business owner that just needs a couple things, you know, figured out to, you know, to make, to not even to replace people, you know, but to actually empower their people in ways to do better and more work. All right. So I'll get off my soapbox on that one and move to, let's talk about SEO.

Brent At E2M (08:06.993)

Hahaha.

John Jantsch (08:10.727)

you know, which is a tactic, of course, a channel, if you will, that, that you guys play in quite a bit. There's that's another one of those where there's, you know, like, it would take me about two minutes to find somebody who, who today put on LinkedIn SEO is dead. And so, you know, how are you, how are you, by the way, it's not, but how are you advising clients? How are you changing even your routine and working around the reality that a lot of top of funnel

Brent At E2M (08:10.819)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:40.679)

types of content that used to generate traffic has certainly gone away. We can debate whether or not it was that valuable anyway. But how are you evolving your model when you think about SEO practices?

Brent At E2M (08:54.414)

I mean, if there's a piece of content that you could easily just ask, you know, chat, and you would get a great answer for that content, if that's what you're gonna be putting on your client's website to help them grow their rank or grow their traffic from the LLMs and things like that, I mean, that's certainly probably not gonna be a great strategy. And I think most people got that memo when they saw how much traffic decreased for...

John Jantsch (08:58.781)

Right.

Brent At E2M (09:19.566)

Those kind of common things right like how do I make great guacamole? Right is just going to be the user experience to ask that question on On chat is going to be far better than on a Google browser unless somebody has some type of proprietary ingredient or approach or they can actually build some intellectual property around it and kind of protect that unique recipe right in that case or they have a really great personality around

John Jantsch (09:36.199)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (09:42.727)

Mm-hmm.

Brent At E2M (09:47.054)

teaching people how to make guacamole or whatever, and they're a great YouTuber, and there's some type of thing that's unique that AI cannot replicate that they can bring to the marketplace. So I do think marketers have to be a little bit more creative. There's kind of a reinvention that's going on. That being said, there's also a ton of people that are now using LLMs to search for business recommendations, to search for services. And certainly there's...

John Jantsch (10:09.307)

Yeah, 100%.

Brent At E2M (10:13.248)

a whole cottage industry. our, amount of SEO business that we've had has, has categorically gone up year over year, right? And that's kind of in the post AI world. And a big thing on the, on the E2M team is how are we optimizing our clients' websites and search strategy for the LLMs, right? Kind of the AEO strategies while we're also using, you know, continuing to invest in Google. And I think Google, for instance, I I don't know if search traffic, you know, the

John Jantsch (10:15.035)

the

John Jantsch (10:21.661)

Mm-hmm.

Brent At E2M (10:40.738)

The Google usage has necessarily gone down. mean, I think they're still driving a lot of traffic to businesses. Google Local, massively important for businesses to be active, right? Especially if they're a service business or they're working locally or regionally, right? That's something that I think the LLMs aren't doing nearly as well as Google. And so there's certainly still lots of blue oceans, I think, on the SEO side.

John Jantsch (10:47.132)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:02.119)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.853)

Yeah, and I think you're 100 % right. mean, I'm speaking in a conference next month of all remodeling contractors. And they're all talking about like, what do need to be doing to change? And it's like, hey, you know, show up in that map pack, do a better job of your reviews, you know, that, you know, answer, you know, have a lot of FAQs, you know, that answer questions that people would have about remodeling, because that the trust, I think, with the map pack, whether it's deserved or not, you know, that the consumer has is going to, I think, give that

a life for a long time. And I don't think you're going to see the AI overviews for somebody that's, I mean, you can go there and say, you know, in AI mode, you can say, what's the best for modeling contractor in this town. And it will give you an opinion. But I think people still value the map pack and the proximity and all the things that come with it.

Brent At E2M (11:55.086)

You know, one thing I think there was this like undertone of like, is AI going to make agencies like obsolete or something? And, and it's weird because like I've asked this to a lot of agency groups have been like, okay, in the post AI world, like who here is working less, right? And I asked people like raise their hands and like, nobody raised their hand. I'm like, okay, the, the right, they're working more. They're working way more. Right. It is weird. It's a weird paradigm, right? Because you would think, Hey, artificial intelligence, the computer is going to do all the work for me.

John Jantsch (12:00.955)

Yeah, yeah, you bet.

John Jantsch (12:11.133)

It's more. They're all working more, in fact.

Brent At E2M (12:24.718)

You know, it's like the logical outcome of that would be that we wouldn't have to work as hard. And, you know, even though these tools do magical things, I don't think they make finding leads and customers any easier. If anything, they're just making it even more competitive. They're giving advanced marketing tools to a lot larger group of people. And so it's getting more competitive out there. And that means that businesses...

John Jantsch (12:42.993)

Yeah.

Brent At E2M (12:52.51)

still need agencies and specialists now more than ever. In fact, they need specialists that are specialized in specializations instead of specializations. And that was the other thing I was going to kind of bring as a theme is, is looked like knowing who your customer is, having niche expertise, you know, really knowing your market backwards and forwards, knowing your market better than your clients know their industry, I think is now more important than ever. You know, the idea of just being a general

John Jantsch (13:15.783)

Mm-hmm.

Brent At E2M (13:21.432)

Hey, I'm Brent, I'm the web guy, right? Like I don't think that's gonna fly in 2026 and beyond if it is even flying right now.

John Jantsch (13:24.401)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (13:31.293)

So let's talk about the human element. think a lot of people are wringing their hands around. mean, every time you see these headlines that, you know, Microsoft says are 40 % of all jobs will go away by, you know, the next three years. I think you have a lot of people kind of wringing their hands around about like, is this going to destroy the world? know, if people, 40 % of people are out of jobs. How are...

I tell you what we see is I see a lot of people that are working more, as you said, and a lot of it's because the consumer or the business owner behavior has changed a little bit in that they expect more. So that's part of it. our mantra has always been strategy before tactics. We actually feel that if you develop a great marketing strategy, marketing becomes less complicated, but far more effective.

and, and so, you know, what I see is a whole lot of agencies that were, have always been delivering tactics are now just using AI to deliver a new set of tactics. and not still not thinking strategically. I think what Mark, what businesses are going to need in the future is marketing leadership and not marketing doers.

Brent At E2M (14:48.78)

Yeah. Yeah. mean, I think we're running this event. It's all about AI for agency owners. And I promise this is not just a direct plug for our event, but obviously it's my duty to promote our event right now. But one of our attendees, and he's kind of an AI first person, he registered for our event, right? Went in and purchased a ticket.

John Jantsch (14:50.845)

I should have posed that as a question, but it was really more of a statement.

Brent At E2M (15:17.166)

All using his chat GPT agent. So he literally just you know driving in the car Said hey Go buy a ticket to Vistara and his agent, know went and it takes screenshots and says hey This is what I'm doing along the way, but you know, he just kind of had to say yep Yep in the agent already has all of his information and it has all of the information that it needs in order to make that fill out the web forums and actually purchase a product and

It's, it's almost like every business from that perspective, every business's website just became kind of the Amazon one click shopping experience. You know, if, we fast forward two, three years, if we all have these agents that have, you know, secure access to our banking details and to our PII and they know kind of our preferences. mean, what could you do if you can line up an experience that you know is going to meet the needs of a specific target audience? you know, you have.

very few barriers standing between you and them making a transaction, becoming a customer. And I think in that way, AI is going to be disrupting some of these workflows, some of these user interfaces, just as web professionals and digital agencies, how we view creating those experiences. And so I think that while AI is certainly going to destroy some number of jobs, whether it's 40%, 20%, I don't know what the number is.

John Jantsch (16:40.976)

This is...

Brent At E2M (16:42.646)

I trust Microsoft, they're now worth $4 trillion. They must be doing something right. But I think for every job that it destroys, there's going to be new jobs created. You know, if I was, if I lived in a Waymo city, I was just out in California. I rode in my first driverless taxi. Would I still have a car? I don't know because I'm like, well, what if I just used Waymo to get everywhere I needed to go? And when I'm in the car, I'm going to work on

John Jantsch (16:45.309)

You

John Jantsch (16:52.625)

Yeah, I'm seeing that already, right.

Brent At E2M (17:10.094)

I'm going to be productive. I'm going to do work. I'm going to be calling, I'll call 10 more agencies to see if they can come to my event. Right. So I do think that there's like some things that are not super exciting in terms of jobs in the marketplace right now that likely are going to go away, right? Like data entry, data harvesting from the internet, you know, content editors, right? Like I can get a lot of my content. can dictate it to chat and

John Jantsch (17:28.943)

Mm-hmm. Just basic research. Yeah.

Brent At E2M (17:38.52)

gives me pretty good content. It even gives me some suggestions on how to evolve it and gives me different, know, hey, here's a version for LinkedIn. Here's a version for Facebook. Here's a version for Instagram, right? Here's a script that you can go and put, take a video and record, right? So things that I would have relied on three, four or five people before I can get done myself. And a lot of times I don't think I was necessarily hiring those people. I just wasn't doing it, right? I'd post maybe on one platform instead of four and I wouldn't hire a social media person to do that.

John Jantsch (17:45.917)

All right. Yep.

Brent At E2M (18:07.022)

And so I think that some of these things are certainly going to destroy jobs, but you know, like what will my kids' jobs be in 15, 20 years? I have no idea, but they'll have something to do, I'm sure.

John Jantsch (18:07.867)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:17.841)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm even seeing that in our organization. you know, people that, that really were good doers, good implementers, you know, we're really pushing them to, know, they have to be more, they, whether they have employees under them or not, they have to really think more like leaders and think more like managers, who are going to optimize, you know, some of these tools, as opposed to, you know, writing the, every bit of social media content, they're going to be, you know,

looked more as managers. And I think that that from a skill set standpoint, that's, that's probably not everybody's sweet spot. I mean, there definitely are people that are just very good at give me an SOP and I'll follow it. But I do think that from a career standpoint, you know, if you're one of those people, you probably need to really start looking at how do I, know, how do I, my strategic thinking, my EQ skills, you know, over and above, you know, being able to, to manage a spreadsheet.

Brent At E2M (19:15.79)

And sometimes, you know, not to like be like capitalist or whatever, but like, think at some point, right, if people aren't willing to move towards that opportunity voluntarily, they will, you know, maybe have to earn some, learn some hard lessons. And in those, some of those might be expensive lessons. think certainly as an entrepreneur, I've had to learn some expensive lessons when I didn't pivot hard enough or, you know, change my business or change my mindset fast enough. And then you...

John Jantsch (19:32.327)

Yeah, Yeah.

Brent At E2M (19:43.51)

And then you're like, was a hard lesson. I'm never going to do that again. So I think, you know, people don't evolve right now and they don't invest time. Like again, we're doing these AI first Saturdays as a team. And at first people were like, I to come in on Saturday. we're like, Hey, look, this is the reality. Like we're all working an extra, an extra day right now to make sure that we can properly retool and learn enough about this tech because during the week, we're all very focused on client work. We're focusing on.

John Jantsch (19:46.097)

Right, Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:55.121)

Yeah, right.

Brent At E2M (20:11.758)

know, doing the day-to-day business. so, you know, we've, we've made that as a priority all the way up to our leadership team. Right. I mean, I'm waking up at four o'clock every Saturday, joining, joining the team and you know, working on AI stuff.

John Jantsch (20:25.713)

Well, Brent, we've frittered away a perfectly good 20 minutes here trying to help people talk people off the cliff a little bit. Is there some place you'd invite people to learn more about e2m's solutions?

Brent At E2M (20:39.34)

Yeah, you can definitely check us out at e2msolutions.com. You can always email me brent at e2msolutions.com. We're running an event called Vistara at the end of September, depending on when this episode airs, join vistara.com. So we're doing two full days on artificial intelligence and agency growth. So, I mean, we're, think this is such an important topic. We're running a full two day event on this in Denver, Colorado. So if you're interested, certainly reach out.

John Jantsch (21:01.319)

Yes.

John Jantsch (21:06.791)

Well, I'm just down the road. should probably come down and speak at the event. Well, let's make, let's, let's make it happen then. All right. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll see you soon out there on the road.

Brent At E2M (21:10.606)

I think so. I think so. should. Let's make it happen.

Brent At E2M (21:20.942)

Thanks, John.

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Why Inner Excellence Creates Outer Success

Why Inner Excellence Creates Outer Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Jim Murphy, high-performance coach, speaker, and creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. Jim has coached world-class athletes, Olympians, and business leaders, helping them master the inner game that leads to breakthrough results. He shares the story behind his book’s viral moment with NFL star AJ Brown, the practical spiritual approach to peak performance, and why detaching from outcomes is the secret to true excellence—on the field, in business, and in life.

About the Guest

Jim Murphy is a high-performance coach, author, and creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. With a background as a professional athlete and decades of experience coaching Olympians, pro athletes, and top business leaders, Jim’s work blends science, spirituality, and practical tools for living—and performing—at your best. His book, “Inner Excellence: Train Your Mind for Extraordinary Performance and the Best Possible Life,” has sold over half a million copies and is available in more than 25 languages.

• Website: interexcellence.com
• Book: https://geni.us/innerexcellence
• Retreats & Newsletter: VIP Newsletter Signup
• Instagram: @interexcellence

Actionable Insights

• Viral validation: Wide receiver AJ Brown’s sideline reading of “Inner Excellence” sparked global interest, taking the book from niche to worldwide bestseller.
• Lasting results come from mastering your inner game—moving beyond tactics to focus on mindset, heart, and presence.
• Detach from outcomes: The best performers focus on the process and personal growth, not just external results or wins.
• Redefine success: Go beyond achievements and ask, “Who do I want to become? What do I truly value? How do I want to live?”
• Freedom to fail is essential for high performance—joy, excitement, and learning are key to resilience and breakthrough.
• Inner Excellence applies equally to athletes, business leaders, and entrepreneurs: the inner game is universal.
• Daily practices for entrepreneurs and marketers: Learn and grow every day, give the best you have, be present and grateful, focus only on what you can control.
• Embracing vulnerability and humility (accurate self-view, not over or under-inflated ego) leads to greater confidence, peace, and fearlessness.
• Lasting change happens when you strip away “doing” and shift toward “being”—starting with speaking the truth and expanding beliefs about what’s possible.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:30 – AJ Brown’s Sideline Reading Goes Viral
  How an NFL star’s ritual turned “Inner Excellence” into a bestseller overnight.
• 04:37 – From Minor League Struggles to Mindset Breakthrough
  Jim’s journey from pro baseball disappointment to coaching and creating his method.
• 06:41 – Letting Go of Outcome Control
  A Ryder Cup client story and the power of trading “small lollipops” for a bigger vision of success.
• 09:11 – Fear of Failure and Redefining Success
  Why baseball teaches resilience and how to focus on what truly matters.
• 10:49 – The Inner Game for Athletes and Executives
  How mindset mastery is the same for business leaders as for pro athletes.
• 12:08 – Daily Practices for Entrepreneurs and Marketers
  The four goals: Learn and grow, give your best, be present and grateful, focus on what you control.
• 14:21 – Vulnerability, Humility, and Embracing Failure
  How accurate self-view and “letting go” drive real breakthroughs.
• 17:25 – Shifting from Doing to Being
  Why speaking the truth and expanding your beliefs unlocks new levels of possibility.
• 18:46 – How Viral Success Changed (and Validated) the Work
  Jim reflects on confidence, humility, and seeing himself as a messenger, not the “originator.”

Insights

“Detach from outcomes. Go for the whole candy store: fullness of life, not just small tangible wins.”

“Redefine success. Ask who you want to become, what you value, and how you want to live—not just what you want to achieve.”

“Freedom to fail and the joy of learning are essential for high performance—whether on the field or in business.”

“Humility is an accurate view of self—neither overinflated nor underinflated. Let go of ego, and you can be fearless.”

“The most important change is shifting from doing to being—stripping away what isn’t true and expanding what you believe is possible.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.773)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jim Murphy. He's a high performance coach, author, speaker, and the creator of the Inner Excellence Methodology. He's coached world-class athletes, Olympians, and business leaders, helping them achieve breakthrough results by mastering their inner game. His own journey from minor league baseball player to elite coach led him to develop a practical spiritual approach to peak performance.

that goes beyond tactics and into mindset, heart, and presence. We're going to talk about his book, Interpresence, or I'm sorry, Interexcellence, Train Your Mind for Extraordinary Performance and the Best Possible Life. So Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim (00:44.194)

Thanks, John.

John Jantsch (00:45.851)

Few years ago, I had Captain Sullivan on the show. You may recall he is the airline pilot that landed his airplane after taking off in New York City in the Hudson River. Do you remember that a few? Sully, right. And then I turned it into a movie. Of course he had a book. So I had to start that show, you know, as he said, well, I have, you know, I have to tell that story, you know, every time I now am asked to talk about, you know, how that went. So he certainly had the story down. Not nearly as dramatic, but.

Jim (00:57.336)

So weak.

John Jantsch (01:15.451)

You have a bit of an AJ Brown story. want to, I'm sure people are asking you and I'm sure you love telling it. You're probably getting tired of telling it, but you want to tell us kind of your kind of moment happened. Gosh, what was that now? Eight, nine months ago.

Jim (01:30.254)

Yeah, John, I'm very grateful to tell it. So on January 12th, uh, AJ Brown was a, he's a wide receiver for the Philadelphia Eagles. It's a wild card game Packers versus the Eagles. Um, Sunday night football, the only NFL game on and, um, in middle of the game, he's reading the football reading, reading inter excellence on the sidelines during the football game. And so the TV station zooms in on it's like, what is AJ Brown doing? And then, oh my gosh, he was reading a book and Kevin Brown and

John Jantsch (01:37.051)

me.

John Jantsch (01:57.435)

you

Jim (01:59.81)

Tom Burkhart made a big deal about it afterwards. They asked him, what were you doing? Were you bored? Were you? He said, no, it's a book that I read before I bring to every game. Read it before the game to get centered and read it after every drive to get re centered. My teammates call it the recipe. And so that was the first time I actually heard about him doing this. I saw a picture of him on social media of like a month earlier, but I had no context. didn't know anything about it. And so I found out what the rest of the world.

that he was doing this at that time. And just an amazing thing for him to do to be true to himself, that find something that helps him be better at what he does and to be more fearless and show all of us that we all have time to read.

John Jantsch (02:40.687)

Well, and then of course the punchline, I suppose, what happened to you next?

Jim (02:48.424)

a few things, john, a few things. Yeah, my world changed a lot. The you know, the message that selfless is fearless, as you know, spread around the world now, love, wisdom and courage. And so the book had sold maybe seven or eight or 9000 copies in nine years. mean, sorry, 16 years, initially was was published in 2009 by McGraw Hill. And then I

John Jantsch (02:49.563)

Hehehehehe

Jim (03:18.329)

put out a revised edition self-published in 2018 or 2020. And then so that's the book AJ Brown has been reading. And since then, it's sold, I don't know, close to half a million copies, I would say.

John Jantsch (03:32.123)

So, I'm curious, how did you print the books without that sort of immediate demand?

Jim (03:42.21)

Yeah, so it's amazing how the world is now with Amazon and they print on demand. so if

John Jantsch (03:44.645)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:48.527)

Yeah, but they were able to print on that kind of demand. Yeah, yeah.

Jim (03:52.27)

Well, apparently they did run out at some point. So they've got print centers all over the world. And so there was a time when the demand was so high, it's sold tens of thousands of copies every day for the first few weeks that they did run out at one point.

John Jantsch (04:09.435)

Yeah, that's a crazy story. Well, good for you. know, frankly, I love to hear stories like that. Persons out there doing their work and you know, as a magical moment happened, I think we all deserve it. You start the book talking about your own struggles as a minor league player, the mindset, you know, performance anxiety, self doubt. Would you say that that was instrumental to you developing kind of your own framework?

Jim (04:37.78)

yeah, yeah, absolutely. My whole life since I was a little kid, I obsessed about being a superstar. I was going to play in the NFL like A.J. Brown or I was going to be in the NBA or Major League Baseball. And so when I got drafted by the Cubs, it was a dream come true. But I had a vision problem that was with me for my entire professional career. I played five years in the minors and then eventually had to retire because of it. And my identity was completely wrapped up in my role as a pro athlete. And when I lost it, I felt like I lost everything. And so

I got a job with him. asked got out asked to coach a high school baseball team in inner city Seattle and I had no interest in coaching but I took the job was driving a truck for FedEx and we went undefeated and I realized wow I love coaching. Who knew? And then so I went on this journey to become a pro baseball coach. I got went to grad school got a job with the Texas Rangers two weeks after graduation. So now I felt like I was somebody again and then I quit six months into the first season and so.

devastated again my identity, you know, I was somebody and I lost it and then somebody again I lost it and so I kind of got tired of this merry-go-round of feeling like I was someone and no one and end up leaving for the desert to go live a life of solitude to figure out what to do with my life and that's where Interactionless was born. I spent five years full-time writing and researching how to have peace and confidence under the most pressure and what I found John was that that The path to having the most peace and confidence under the most pressure is the same path of building an extraordinary life

when filled with deep contentment, joy and confidence, independent of circumstance. It's a wholehearted path where you understand what the human heart deeply needs and wants and how to get it.

John Jantsch (06:15.611)

So you started touching on this idea of your identity and you spend a lot of time or one of the core principles really is kind of this idea of letting go of the need to control the outcome, which is, you know, being very attached to the outcome. Can you, do you have a client story, executive athlete, I suppose you don't want to name names, but where, you you help somebody kind of overcome that control of the outcome.

Jim (06:41.582)

Yeah, I'll tell you. When I was at the Ryder Cup years ago, it's one of the biggest events in golf pro golf. You have the team USA versus Team Europe. And one of the players top 10 in the world said Jim, I'm too attached to the results of my my performance. You know, I get too tense. What can I do? And I said, Well, imagine there's a little kid who loves lollipops, and he's got a lollipop and you want to take it from him, but you don't want to struggle. Is there any way you could get him to give you the lollipop?

by volunteering it to give it to you. And he said, you know, I don't know. And I said, well, what if you had a bigger lollipop and asked him to trade? And he said, he'd probably trade. What kid wouldn't trade a small lollipop for a bigger one? I said, that's what you need. Your lollipop is too small. Your lollipop is, I just want to get birdies and I want to win the tournament. And I, you know, I want to be successful. I want to get some tangible results. That's way too small. First of all, you don't even know if that's good for you to get birdies and

Good results and have more success. Is that going to be good for you in the long run and your family? You don't know what you need is to pursue fullness of life and develop yourself in that way, which we know is good for you where you feel fully alive and make that your your Pursuit go for the whole candy store. Don't settle for these little these 10 these tangible things that you don't even know if will make you happy let alone fulfilled

John Jantsch (08:06.651)

You talk a lot about fear. You identify a number of them. Um, one of them of which is true. don't care what you're doing. Fear of failure shows up in a lot of people's lives when they pursue anything. Um, I'm curious. I'm a huge baseball fan. That's, that's my sport. Um, and you know, it's very cliche to say, but I'll say it anyway. You know, the best baseball players fail 70 % of the time, right? In the, in the, uh, hitting world. Um,

So, so how does, I mean, how do they get through that and you know, that, that idea of I'm, afraid to fail, but you know, and, what's weird about it is 20 hits in a season might make the difference between being seen as a failure or being seen as, as a superstar. So, you know, how do you, how do you, how do, how did you, or how do you see baseball players in particular? This would apply to all athletes, I suppose, but I just.

I feel like baseball has more failure in it than any other sport. So, you know, how do, how do you, they deal with that?

Jim (09:11.534)

You got to redefine success to something that's meaningful to you and then break it down into smaller components Specifically, how do I want to feel in my life? How do I want to live? Who do I want to become? Who am I meant to become? And What is my purpose? What do I value most if you're not clear on those things then the default is I just need more success I need more base hits and But that's too far out of your control. It's just you

John Jantsch (09:37.115)

Mm-hmm.

Jim (09:40.844)

Now you're just happy if you get hit, sad if you don't, and stressed when you need it, and you're never gonna be your best when you're stressed. We need to have freedom to fail to be your best. There needs to be an element of joy and excitement to be your best. In order to have that joy and excitement, we need to focus on the reason why you want the base hit. Why do you want the base hit? Well, so I can have a good batting average. Why do I want that? So I can become an all-star. Why do you want that?

So I can make more money. What do you want that? Well, I want a great life. Really. I want a more comfortable life. Well, what is it that you really want? Is it just a $10 million house on the water? Is that what you want? Or is it what you think that will give you, which is great experiences and deep enriching relationships where you're learning and growing and making a difference, where you feel fully alive? Is that what you okay? That's what you want? Well, I'm going show you how to go for that directly and let everything else be added to you.

John Jantsch (10:33.932)

So we have been talking mostly about athletes, but you coach a lot of business leaders who are certainly not performing in the same way. Is it any different or is it really basically get down to the same bottom line?

Jim (10:49.582)

Exact same thing. I don't teach people what to do, how to do their job. Unless it's pro baseball, I might have had a few couple things there, but it doesn't matter if you're a CEO of Google or you're a pro athlete or Olympic swimmer or anybody. It's really how do you be fully engaged in the moment when you're performing unattached to what you're trying to do? How can you expand what you believe is possible? How can you perform with freedom and passion?

John Jantsch (10:58.361)

Yeah.

Jim (11:18.848)

unattached to what you're trying to do. And that's, that's everything I'm telling you about is really clarifying these things that are most meaningful to you and, pursuing them.

John Jantsch (11:28.123)

So athletes today, I mean, obviously they've trained their body. mean, that's kind of a lot. That's, that's what comes with the deal. Increasingly, you're seeing sports psychologists. You know, you're actually seeing people in the dugout, uh, that are, you know, mindset related. Business owners don't necessarily, well, a lot of them don't train their body like an athlete, even though they need to perform, but they certainly don't have the same idea of training their mind. Are there exercise? I know there are exercises in your system. Uh, you want to talk a little bit about.

ones that are really geared towards entrepreneurs or even have a lot of marketers on this show that would help them train their mind.

Jim (12:08.684)

Yeah, well, with the InterEx Lancers, the number one goal every day is to learn and grow. If you want to be great at business, we need to be creative. We can't be attached to the results and circumstances. We need to think clearly. We have to have a clear mind and unburdened heart. If you want to be great at anything, business included, we can't be caught up in the past and future. so learn and grow every day is the number one goal. And then within that, we have four daily goals.

Give the best of what you have some days it's not going to be good. Be present, be grateful, focus on your routines and only what you can control.

John Jantsch (12:46.575)

There certainly is, you talk openly about the spiritual elements of what you teach, presence, gratitude, acceptance, in addition to like performance metrics. Do you ever, especially with business leaders, do you ever get any skepticism, pushback that, just like give me the tools, give me the, you I don't need that woo-woo stuff.

Jim (13:09.68)

yeah, yeah. Pro athletes, business leaders. Yeah, definitely. If you're a high achiever, then you don't want the woo woo. You want tangible results. You don't want to mess around. You don't want to waste your time. And I get it. The question is if something is really important to you, if this is the biggest year of your career, maybe your free agent or maybe you have a massive deal you're working on or just trying to get a job and you need the money.

The more important it is to you, then the more important the process of how you live and what you do every day is, you know, then it's more important. So the question is, what's the best process for you to be your best every day? And that's what InterEx is, is I present to you what I think, what I've learned is the best process for the majority of people to be fully engaged in the moment, heart, mind and body on a test and what they're trying to do.

John Jantsch (14:02.297)

You talk about in the book embracing, excuse me, vulnerability and even failure in some cases. You want to talk a little bit about whether it's on your own personal life or with the client where you've helped, we're embracing that imperfection has kind of led to a breakthrough.

Jim (14:21.922)

Yeah, I define humility as an accurate view of self, not overinflated and not under inflated. And so

John Jantsch (14:25.563)

Right.

Jim (14:34.382)

pro athletes and most people they come to me because they're underperforming and essentially they come to me wanting they're obsessing about things that they want can't control and then they just try harder and then the trying harder causes them to be more tense more anxious and worse performance and so then they just that causes more stress and then they feel like they need to become more needy and so it's just this endless loop and so essentially

They're coming to me for low level needs and desires. Become world number one. Be the best in the industry. That's a low level need is, well, one, I call it low level because you don't even know if it's good for you, let alone gonna make you happy. Say you got a million followers or $10 million or $10 million house on the water. Is that gonna make you happy? You might think so and hopefully, but it may not. And so, but that's people come to me because I've helped people achieve extraordinary success.

John Jantsch (15:09.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jim (15:32.438)

generally most people their first year together, they have the best year of their careers. It's because we focus on developing themselves as people giving inner strength and inner peace, let everything else be added to them. So, this is the crucial thing.

John Jantsch (15:48.773)

So how do you balance the fact that, especially in the field that you're working with, mean, that people are taught their entire lives to strive for excellence, to hustle, to work harder, to outwork everybody else. I how do you balance that? Because you're not, I mean, they obviously have to have the skills they have to put into work, but you're telling them something completely different than what society is probably pumping in.

Jim (16:14.998)

Yeah. Society says the only thing that matters is the results, bottom line, black and white, zero sum score. Like it's either win or lose. There's only only so many pieces to the pie. And I'm saying, we live in an unstable, unfair world that has a lot of, horrible things in it. And, if you don't have a clear system, you're going to get sucked into negativity and because of all the instability and even evil and violence.

So we need to have a clear system to make sure we're focusing on who you can become and what's possible in your life. And so, Inter Excellence is about developing the habits of thought and action every day where you can be fully engaged in the moment more often, unattached to the results of what you're trying to do. And we do that by training your heart to love most what's most empowering.

John Jantsch (17:03.493)

So I'm guessing a fair amount of people you work with need like you need to strip some stuff away, you know, because they come to you with being full on being doing. What's kind of the first step to get somebody to shift their mindset from that, you know, away from doing and more towards, I guess you would call it being.

Jim (17:25.762)

how they speak. The first thing we do is we make sure that we're speaking the truth. That's Inter Excellence has nine disciplines and one of the disciplines is to speak the truth about the past to create possibilities in the future. So people come to me and they want to perform better. they're, they often will talk to me about how they're struggling with something. And, but the thing is your subconscious is what's running your life and creating these beliefs that are limitations on what's possible.

It's really, really hard to outperform your beliefs, the subconscious comfort level with what you feel is possible in your life. And so, Inter-Excellence is largely about expanding what you believe is possible by getting yourself to see possibilities and feel it as if it's real. And so we need to be able to come to edge of our feelings and beliefs and not resist those moments where we're super uncomfortable.

John Jantsch (18:18.393)

Because your work went from being exposed to X amount of people to a much larger X, has that changed just because I'm guessing you're getting a lot more feedback, you have more people reaching out to you saying, hey, I want a piece of you. Has that changed not you, but has that changed anything, how you think about your system, how you think about the work, or is it only validated?

Jim (18:46.894)

Oh yeah, it's changed a lot. My life has changed a lot. Um, I think of what if I would have died January 11th or before, you know, I, the majority of the things in the book that I wrote 16 years ago are the same. And it was selling one to two copies a day before January 12th. And then, um, you know, now it's like I said, it's going to be in 26 or 27 languages and it's sold half a million copies or whatever. And so, um,

John Jantsch (18:58.255)

Right.

Jim (19:14.646)

what's changed is is well, I want to more definitely more confidence in the message. Like in the past, I you know, I believed in the message for sure. But there's always a wonder like, why don't more people? Why isn't the book more popular? didn't understand it. And so now it's just kind of that's really cool. But I don't think of myself as as the originator of this.

John Jantsch (19:32.304)

Yeah.

Jim (19:41.876)

or even author. I'm just a lowly messenger. And so because it's so extraordinary, everything that's happened, it's, I mean, it's, there's no way that I could say, I did this. And so the moment we start to think that I'm doing it and that I'm somebody because I'm doing these great things, then we start to get afraid of, what if I make mistakes? But when you can take yourself completely out of the picture,

John Jantsch (19:52.123)

Thanks

John Jantsch (20:06.521)

Yeah.

Jim (20:10.904)

there's no concern for self, then you can be fearless. God's given me this gift that I realized, you know, at the very most I've added maybe one or 2 % to anything good that's happened in the last six months. And since I know that there's no like, I'm somebody now. I know I'm nobody.

John Jantsch (20:30.873)

Yeah. Well, Jim, I appreciate you taking a moment to share with our listeners. Is there some place you would invite people to connect with you? Obviously the book's available everywhere, but if people want to learn more about your coaching or just really, you know, anything, explore anything deeper from the book.

Jim (20:53.09)

Yeah, I would go to interexcellence.com and sign up for the newsletter. We have a VIP newsletter that talks about our retreats and workshops. We've got a retreat coming up in Mexico here very soon. and then social media, Instagram, InterExcellence, InterExcellence, Jim Murphy, and other social media outlets. You'll find me.

Jim (21:16.28)

Thanks so much, John.

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Marketing in the Era of Uber Trends

Marketing in the Era of Uber Trends written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Michael Tchong, innovation expert, futurist, and founder of Uber Trends. Named “America’s most influential trend spotter” by Daily Telegraph, Michael has helped brands like Apple, Amex, and Mercedes-Benz anticipate seismic shifts in technology and consumer behavior. Michael breaks down the difference between fleeting fads and true “Uber Trends,” shares his process for pattern recognition and trend validation, and explains why transparency, instant gratification, and user experience are core forces reshaping marketing, business, and culture.

About the Guest

Michael Tchong is a renowned innovation expert, sought-after speaker, and the founder of Uber Trends. He’s been recognized as America’s top trend spotter and has guided Fortune 500 companies in anticipating and capitalizing on shifts that drive consumer behavior and technology. Michael is the author of “Ubertrends: How Trends and Innovation Are Transforming Our Future,” founder of the Uber Trends Academy, and a passionate advocate for leveraging deep trend insight for competitive advantage.

• Website & Academy: ubertrends.com
• Book: Ubertrends: How Trends and Innovation Are Transforming Our Future
• Community: Uber Trends Academy (via Mighty Networks)

Actionable Insights

• Uber Trends are massive, value-shifting waves that reshape society and spark dozens of subtrends—unlike shallow fads, they create lasting change.
• Pattern recognition and connecting data “dots” is the key skill for trend spotting; analyzing headlines, reading research critically, and tagging patterns are daily habits for Michael.
• Time compression, instant gratification, and “TBD” (too busy disorder) are core Uber Trends affecting everything from TikTok to retail hours—businesses must adapt to shorter attention spans and higher expectations.
• User experience and transparency are essential for future-ready businesses; consumers demand seamless journeys, clear pricing, and visible customer support.
• The explosion of martech and AI tools signals a “great martech displacement”—disruption is coming from nimble new players, not industry incumbents.
• Marketers and business owners should focus on finding pain points tied to Uber Trends and build innovation around solving them (not just chasing the latest app or fad).
• Trendspotting is a skill anyone can build: Read widely, analyze patterns, maintain a trend database, and be skeptical about research and survey data.
• The future belongs to those who can connect systemic shifts to actionable business ideas—turning trend insight into competitive advantage.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:09 – Uber Trends vs. Micro Trends
  Michael explains his framework and why only a few shifts truly change society.
• 03:18 – What Makes an Uber Trend?
  Massive, value-shifting, and “changes people,” not just culture.
• 04:42 – Pattern Recognition and Connecting the Dots
  Why trend spotting is about data analysis and seeing the big picture.
• 08:31 – Turning Trends Into Business Innovation
  How leaders can build around pain points and lasting shifts, not fads.
• 10:25 – The Great Martech Displacement
  Why 40,000 new AI apps are disrupting traditional marketing tech stacks.
• 13:19 – User Experience as the Ultimate Differentiator
  Why transparency, customer support, and frictionless journeys are the new competitive edge.
• 15:15 – Transparency, Pricing, and the Self-Led Buyer Journey
  Marketing must adapt as buyers expect everything to be visible before talking to sales.
• 17:14 – Spotting Trends Early—and What Michael Missed
  Reflections on time compression, instant gratification, and what’s next.
• 20:14 – Habits for Marketers Who Want to Spot Trends
  Michael’s daily reading, trend database, and tips for separating signal from noise.

Insights

“Uber Trends are not fads—they’re massive, value-shifting waves that actually change people, not just society.”

“Pattern recognition is the heart of trend spotting. It’s about connecting the dots and seeing the big picture among all the noise.”

“Time compression, instant gratification, and higher expectations are pushing businesses to deliver user experiences that are fast, transparent, and frictionless.”

“The martech world is being disrupted—not by incumbents, but by nimble new AI players who understand the next wave.”

“Anyone can learn to spot trends—read widely, question research, maintain a database, and always look for actionable patterns you can build a business around.”

Duct Tape Transcript

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John Jantsch (00:00.93)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Michael Tchong. He's an innovation expert, sought after speaker and founder of Uber Trends. He's recognized as America's most influential trend spotter by Daily Telegraph. Michael has helped companies like Apple, American Express and Mercedes-Benz anticipate and capitalize on seismic shifts in consumer behavior and technology. He's known for his energetic

presentations, uncanny predictions and unique frameworks for decoding the future. So, Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Tchong (00:37.382)

thank you for having me, John. It's a pleasure to be here, especially with someone who is in the digital marketing arena.

John Jantsch (00:44.59)

for many years before we had digital marketing in fact, but still in it. So as I read in your bio, you've been called America's most influential trend spotter. So I'm wondering, do you have a kind of a personal process for identifying, know, real lasting trends versus kind of passing fads? you got a methodology that generally is on target?

Michael Tchong (01:09.197)

Well, I think that and I have a book called uber trends how trends and innovation are transforming our future I am really focused on my eight uber trends because they are what I consider to be value shift inducing trends most trends just skim the social surface so

Those eight uber trends, the digital lifestyle, the marriage of man and machine, generation ecstasy, been there, done that, voyeur orgasm, I like to watch. I know these are, you know, stand out waves that I believe repercuss through society, rippling across our social surface and creating many, sub trends in their wake. that now, so if a if I see a phenomenon that is

John Jantsch (01:44.334)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (02:02.637)

tied to one of these trends, then I know it's part of a lasting happening. think that that's really how you have to look at it. So for example, you know, the experience if inflation, which is one of my Uber trends, is, of course, quite appropriate for Las Vegas, because we have so many.

John Jantsch (02:10.87)

Mmm. Okay.

John Jantsch (02:27.278)

Yeah

Michael Tchong (02:29.837)

of Meow Wolf, and now we have the Universal Horror Experience, and you've got the Sphere. These are all things that are aimed directly under the aegis of Generation XTC at an audience that's become so bored and so immune to excitement because they want to move on to the next thing, just like, you know, been there, done that suggests.

John Jantsch (02:56.846)

Hehehe.

Michael Tchong (02:57.677)

that I look at those type of phenomena as a part of a lasting change in society.

John Jantsch (03:05.293)

So maybe I better back up a little bit. Let's define first the concept of an Uber trend that obviously it's central to your work. How do you define one? What makes it different from say a micro trend?

Michael Tchong (03:18.221)

Okay, an uber trend is a massive wave, think tsunami that cascades through society, leaving many sub trends in its wake. And what sets it apart, like I mentioned, unlike most trends, it does not skim the social surface, it actually changes people. So let me give you a perfect example of that. Time compression, the acceleration of life.

We are all suffering from TBD, too busy disorder, as Ellen DeGeneres coined it. We are all multitasking to save time. We've all become massively impatient. So the TikTok video view is now two seconds because everyone clicks off in 1.6 to 1.8 seconds. That is part and parcel.

John Jantsch (04:11.65)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tchong (04:15.637)

of the time compression Uber trend. So when you see again, these snapshots in society, I connect the dots. We're all inundated by data. And so what I tried to say is, look, this is all part and parcel of a phenomenon that has legs and that is something that you need to watch as a marketer, especially.

John Jantsch (04:42.092)

So I have been doing this show for coming up on 20 years. Actually, August 1st is my 20th anniversary of doing this show as a podcast. Prior to that, I actually did a radio show. And so I have interviewed many, many people. I interviewed John Nesbitt, who was the author of Megatrends. And so he was kind of the first person to talk trends, to me at least. I'm sure there have been others. your work been influenced by some of his early work?

Michael Tchong (04:52.801)

Wow.

Michael Tchong (05:02.422)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (05:06.198)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (05:12.917)

Well, megatrends is what everybody will call it when I talk about Uber trends, right? But, you know, remember I'm a marketer by heart. Okay. That's my background. I worked a shy day, you know? So when I decided on the Uber nomenclature way before Uber was cool, I was Uber cool. I adopted that as the name for my trends. And think about it.

John Jantsch (05:16.898)

Yes. Right,

Michael Tchong (05:42.901)

You're a marketer. Think about the marketing perspective. You've got the seventies. You've got Alvin Toffler, Future Shock. Everyone talks about that. Then the eighties appears and you've got John Nesbit, Megatrends. Everyone talks about that. Then you get Fade Popcorn in the nineties and some people talk about it. Then you get Malcolm Gladwell in the two thousands who is more of a author, you know, someone who's

John Jantsch (05:49.784)

Right.

John Jantsch (05:59.416)

Alright, the popcorn diaries, right? Yeah.

Michael Tchong (06:12.48)

Paints a great story, but I wouldn't necessarily consider him to be a sublime trend watcher. I think he's really more focused on creating these stories and, you know, 10,000 hours that you have to become before you become proficient at something. So there is a vacuum in my view and the vacuum that is currently being occupied by the likes of say a Rainier Avers at trend watching in the Netherlands.

John Jantsch (06:27.256)

Yeah, right, right.

John Jantsch (06:32.408)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (06:41.228)

And there's a gentleman in Jeremy Gucci in Canada with Trend Hunter. me, yeah, and with all due respect, let me tell you something. Many of their 10,000 or so, 20,000 or so trend labels, most of those are fads.

John Jantsch (06:44.91)

Yeah. Jeremy's been on this show. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:07.448)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Tchong (07:08.46)

Most of those are, know, a picture, a picture hook for your wall in the shape of a dagger. Who cares? I don't. That may be good for a small business operator who's looking for a creative idea, perhaps, but I am more interested in the systemic shifts in society. That is my difference.

John Jantsch (07:19.309)

You

Right.

Michael Tchong (07:37.932)

And so when you are looking for a value proposition as a marketer, how do I take an idea of an emerging trend and turn it into a you know, shape shifting business solution? That's what I'm all about.

John Jantsch (07:55.35)

Yeah. mean, I mean, all the conversation around trends is really just kind of almost fun pop culture until you can do something with it. Right. And I think that that's the, that's the real rub is a lot of people can say, yeah, that, okay. I see that coming. Or maybe I don't, or maybe that's a big deal, but how do I capitalize on it? So, you know, how do you advise people you, I mentioned in your bio that you work with some, big name companies, how do you advise them to take something that

Michael Tchong (08:04.595)

Exactly.

Michael Tchong (08:15.36)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:24.13)

that maybe you've defined and you see coming and then say, hey, here's how to prepare for it.

Michael Tchong (08:31.306)

Well, look, there is no real magic in anything that we do as business people. I always say you've got to pay attention to the details. So for example, in my presentations, I talk about the fact that, you know, everyone aspires to come up with a disruptive innovation. But Steve Jobs, with all the things that he did.

John Jantsch (08:53.774)

Sure.

Michael Tchong (09:00.182)

did not necessarily create anything new. When he took the iPod, he takes something that came out of Singapore, creative strategies. I'm not a creative strategist, but you know who I'm talking about. They already had an MP3 player, but he just did a best of breed. He put a five megabyte, which at the time was huge, of storage into a device. But the biggest innovation there was

John Jantsch (09:16.27)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:21.388)

Yeah, right, right.

Michael Tchong (09:27.958)

tying it to a music store so that you could automatically seamlessly download some music. So as a business person, when you're looking at emerging trends and you're seeing all the things that are happening in our current landscape, and there are many, okay, you have to then decide, okay, how do I build a business around that? So again, you take baby steps, you say,

John Jantsch (09:31.47)

Yeah, right.

Michael Tchong (09:56.921)

What is the pain point in society related to this emerging trend? What are people not able to do or accomplish in a simple fashion to get this to work for them? Especially in this day and age where, know, let's go through some numbers here. You're in digital marketing. You know as well as I, the Scott Brinker has that barometer.

John Jantsch (10:13.848)

the

Michael Tchong (10:25.9)

And in May, he said there were 15,400 or so digital marketing apps. And that took 31 years from the day that that first ad banner appeared on Hotwired, 1994, May 1994, till now, 31 years to get to 15,400 apps. Since the debut of OpenAI's chat GPT, November 30th of 2022, we will never forget.

John Jantsch (10:32.748)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (10:55.596)

We now have almost 40,000 AI apps.

John Jantsch (11:02.892)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (11:03.486)

Massive, massive, but what that does tell you is that there is a, and I call this trend the great martech displacement. Okay. Because in all my explorations, if you will, of the apps that are marketing related.

John Jantsch (11:14.158)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (11:29.032)

One of the things I noticed that, hey, you know what? There are almost no traditional players in all these articles that are talking about, you know, the digital sales representative and, know, GEO, which is now the new SEO, Generative AI, born engine optimization, is that these things are not occupied by the traditional player.

John Jantsch (11:35.384)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:41.709)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:47.49)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (11:58.78)

If I was a small business consultant and I was focused on what the next generation of my clients would be demanding, I would suggest that they start looking into what are these leading edge tools and build a business around.

John Jantsch (12:15.406)

Yeah, I actually think that it'll be interesting. Some of the entrenched players, I think will try to get it in the space, I think that, I think there's a, right now that the AI apps are, you know, there are 200 of them that somebody could use and at any given time, I think those are all going to get consolidated and eaten up by somebody who figures out how to create the AI operating system as kind of one deliverable package. And I think people will

You know, right now there's a whole bunch of $20 a month tools. think there's somebody's going to come along and create the 599, you know, all in one package that I think, I think will, especially for small and midsize businesses.

Michael Tchong (12:51.455)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (12:55.363)

That's what Elon Musk says he wants to do. There's been talk about that super app for years now. I have not seen it. In 1992, I created the first incursion of what I consider a modularly upgradable CRM system. It was called Hello.

John Jantsch (12:57.998)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:03.49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's because it's hard.

John Jantsch (13:17.39)

Hmm. Huh.

Michael Tchong (13:19.145)

because I am focused on the user experience. That is what I believe is the number one thing you should be talking about when, in this new age, with everyone being hyper competitive, the customer experience is what sets you apart. So as a small business person, that is what I focus on. Transparency is the other thing that I highly advocate everybody pursue.

We are living in an era where that's ruled by voyeurgasm. I like to watch UberTrend. And that is propelling that urge by society to be able to see more. It's propelled by YouTube. You've got celebrity worship syndrome. You've got reality shows. know, everything has become transparent. We're living in surveillance culture. You know, again, all of these are opportunities as they keep exploding.

to create businesses around and, you know, make sure you do that. So for example, in our business, in our software business, you know as well as I do, every developer out there hides their customer service email. They have no 800 toll free numbers. They try so desperately to make sure that no one can find them. There's no street address. There's nothing.

John Jantsch (14:34.136)

Ha ha.

Michael Tchong (14:44.413)

It is totally anathema to the wave of the future of transparency. Absolutely. So I go and preach to an audience that is totally hostile. They don't want to hear that. And I say, look at your ketchup bottle. You will see that there is an 800 toll free number on your ketchup bottle. Why can't you have that? If I have to pay you $50 a month.

John Jantsch (14:49.1)

Yeah, I agree with that, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:57.603)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (15:13.759)

for your service.

John Jantsch (15:15.906)

Well, I'm, I'm actually, I tell you one trend that I'm seeing then that's directly related to marketing is people, you know, because the buyer now has so much control over the journey and information and what they can find, you know, even creating short lists of, of, potential vendors that pricing is not going to be, I think, showing your pricing, revealing your pricing on your website as part of the customer journey before I ever have to talk to a salesperson.

I think is a trend that goes to this transparency, but also kind of, think goes to how people expect to buy today. They don't want a salesperson to call them. They want to almost do a self-led journey, even for very high ticket items. I think that you're going to see more and more marketers that are going to put everything on the table because they have no choice.

Michael Tchong (15:58.335)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (16:09.609)

Yeah, I hope so. know, I still the minute I run into any solution that has no pricing page, I go away, you know, and yeah, we're a small business people. We all know we need to be diligent about our budgets and spending. So it is absolutely crucial that I know upfront that I have full pricing transparency and that I, like you said, don't have to call somebody.

John Jantsch (16:11.086)

You

John Jantsch (16:19.788)

Right. Well, and I think you're not alone. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:35.47)

Well, or, or, or I was going to say, just, don't want to waste my time to find out it's 10 times more than I can afford, uh, you know, is the answer. So, so it's like, I want to at least know what I'm getting into before I even want to have that conversation or waste my time. think that, you know, kind of goes to your short attention span, you know, nobody wants a sales call. I mean, we want to be able to just do it 24 seven when we feel like it. Are there any?

Michael Tchong (16:43.476)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (16:50.847)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (16:59.239)

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

John Jantsch (17:02.594)

Are there any trends that you feel like you spotted early on and you've been able to take advantage of? And then I can give you the flip side. Are there any that you feel like you really missed?

Michael Tchong (17:14.991)

Well, I was talking about time compression back in the 90s. And so I, to me, society has been evolving at a speed. Then when I started to do research into it, I discovered that it really started way back as far as the forties, 1946, the discovery of the microwave oven, the discovery of

John Jantsch (17:19.714)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:36.878)

Mm-hmm.

Michael Tchong (17:44.475)

of the Polaroid camera, these both introduced America to instant gratification. And now it's become part and parcel of our culture. We all want to, you I love that Google finding, you know, the interest in results for open now have declined, have increased exponentially as opposed to store hours. Again,

John Jantsch (18:12.876)

Yeah, yeah,

Michael Tchong (18:13.712)

for the retailer, that's good to know because really, you know, I don't want to have to search through your whole website to find what you, if you are open now. I almost advocate that we go back to that. Remember those little banners that used to run on the websites in the nineties? They had a little neon chasing thing. That's what we need on your retailing website, on the homepage, open now.

John Jantsch (18:32.119)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (18:44.146)

I mean, to me, is a, you know, I mean, why do I have to dig it? Now, of course, Google is provided in its summary of results. Thank God. Because again, yeah, I mean, you know, not even that, that directory listing on the right of that business that has the hours and the website and all, mean, you know, that is all information that you as a marketer should have already provided upfront on your homepage.

John Jantsch (18:46.616)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:53.944)

Yeah, the AI overviews are definitely cutting into that kind of search.

John Jantsch (19:11.512)

Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Kind of reminds me, you were talking about the instant gratification. There was a movie, I never can remember the title of this, but the characters were teenagers and their mother had died and they found a camera that, film camera that she had taken some, obviously taken some pictures and they were like, let's go get these, you know, developed, see what's on it. So they take it in the store and he said, do you want the one hour service? And they were like, we have to wait an hour to get these pictures.

Michael Tchong (19:30.634)

Mm.

Michael Tchong (19:39.108)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.678)

I really, I find that to be one of the kind of the funniest moments to really sum up this. All right. So.

If a marketer wants to become a trend spotter themselves to some degree, are there any habits that you think that they need to start building around looking for those? is it simply a matter of read your book, Uber Trends, and then try to apply those to some process in their book or in their business?

Michael Tchong (20:14.186)

or join ubertrendsacademy, my school, where you will be learning a lot about trend watching. Essentially, it's parsing a lot of information. It's pattern recognition, okay? I I look at four to 500 headlines a day. I then categorize and database the articles.

John Jantsch (20:24.088)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tchong (20:35.818)

They're all stored now in an Airtable database. I have keyworded them. I track over 350 trends, most of them related to my Uber trends because I cannot track every trend known to man, you know, because that would be tens of thousands. But I am just looking at the ones that everyone talks about. So I've got about 350 of those. And then what you then do is it's a relational database. So it's categorized, it's tagged. Trends can have

John Jantsch (20:46.606)

Sure.

Michael Tchong (21:05.466)

overlapping market impacts, so they have to be tagged. So if I were to say to you, okay, you want to become a trend watcher? Yeah, you can, absolutely. Read the New York Times, read the Wall Street Journal. They are the biggest providers of trend watching in America. Then BBC and perhaps, you know, Futurism, know, Wired.

I read TechCrunch every day, I read The Verge every day, and then I go into Google News and I look at what they provide me, and then people share a lot of information with me as well, so that helps. That's my informal trend-watching army. So I get help, and I need it. There's too much stuff to absorb, it's impossible, right?

John Jantsch (21:59.554)

Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

Michael Tchong (22:02.793)

Yeah, you can definitely become a trend watcher. So you have to analyze the data. You have to spot patterns, and that's the critical thing. You have to really understand the difference between a good survey and a bad survey. And most research is bad. OK? Let me give you that. So when you see.

John Jantsch (22:20.76)

Yeah.

Michael Tchong (22:25.322)

a statistic for example that says 43 % of kids would love to play video games on their watch. You then have to know that in traditional research we divide audiences into quintiles, which are approximate fifths. And the spectrum goes from the one end of the spectrum is people who do everything

And then the other end of the spectrum is the people who do nothing. All right. As I call them legally dead. And in that spectrum, what you will find, and it goes into those approximate fifths beautifully really, because the top two quintiles, 40 % want to play video games on their watch.

John Jantsch (23:00.525)

Hahaha.

John Jantsch (23:20.536)

Yes.

Michael Tchong (23:21.82)

And so that 43 % statistic tells me nothing. That only tells me, hmm, it's representative of the market at large. So reading research is absolutely critical because that is, you know, when they say, you know, 20 % of people never use AI. Hey, it's the bottom quintile. They never do anything.

John Jantsch (23:31.468)

Yes, yes, yes.

John Jantsch (23:46.53)

Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Well, Michael, I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. there some place you'd invite people to learn about you connect with you? Obviously, find out more about your uber trends group.

Michael Tchong (23:51.581)

You know? So...

Michael Tchong (24:06.762)

Yes, absolutely. So ubertrends.com, that is where the Academy is based and that is where you will find plenty of information about our community. I invite people to join it. It's on Mighty Networks, which is a startup by Gina Biancini who started Ring, if you remember that from the, I'm sorry, Ning, Ning, not Ring, Ning, in another community platform. Yeah, Gina, Gina, oh, you get around, man, you know.

John Jantsch (24:25.72)

Yeah. Yeah. Ning, Ning. Yeah, yeah. Gina's been on my shelf on this show. Yeah.

John Jantsch (24:36.357)

I do.

Michael Tchong (24:36.362)

So, yeah, so what we're trying to create is a community of people that talk to one another, you know. I don't know if you remember, but I was the founder of Iconocast. We were one of the preeminent digital marketing newsletters during the dot com boom. So we had 50,000 readers each week that were part of and parcel of a very hardcore community. That's what we like to build again.

John Jantsch (24:53.602)

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

John Jantsch (25:03.99)

Awesome. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you. I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Michael Tchong (25:06.196)

All right.

Michael Tchong (25:11.186)

And by the way, this is a T-shirt that is part of my innovation crusade. It's you call that innovation is the hashtag. It's a laughing emoji because the reality is, as you well know, everyone talks about innovation, but it's like teenage sex. No one does it. On that note. Take thanks. Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (25:19.054)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (25:34.838)

Awesome. I appreciate it.

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