Sunday, October 8, 2023

How to Become a Fractional CMO

How to Become a Fractional CMO written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Ever heard of a fractional CMO? If you’re shaking your head, buckle up because it’s the future. Imagine wielding the power of a marketing wizard without having to afford their six-figure salary. That’s exactly what becoming a fractional CMO is all about.

You see, as marketers we often forget that less can be more; but not when it comes to knowledge and expertise! By choosing to become a fractional CMO, you bring expert-level skills into multiple businesses at fraction of the cost and time commitment required by full-time roles.

Does that pique your interest? Keep going! Discover how you can shift from being an ordinary marketer.

Table Of Contents:

Understanding the Role of a Fractional CMO

The role of a fractional CMO, or Chief Marketing Officer, is one that’s growing in popularity. But why? And what exactly does it entail?

Defining the Fractional CMO Role

A fractional CMO works part-time for a company instead of being employed full time. A fractional CMO can be a major asset for businesses needing expert guidance and execution but without enough tasks to employ someone full-time.

Fractional CMOs typically bring their wealth of experience to guide marketing efforts, helping companies refine their brand messaging, identify ideal clients, improve client retention and more. Their job involves aligning business objectives with current marketing strategies while also staying abreast with changes in the digital marketing landscape.

This kind of professional might also spend time working on improving your sales pipeline or expanding your customer base by targeting new markets – whatever is needed most to help reach business goals. As they are not tied down by set hours like full-timers, they can adapt quickly as needs change.

Companies find value in this flexibility because it allows them access to expert advice without bearing the cost associated with employing someone at such level permanently; hence saving on overall CMO costs which could otherwise be prohibitive especially for startup companies.

Fractional CMOs usually juggle multiple roles across different companies giving them a broader perspective about industry trends and best practices from various sectors, thereby enabling innovative problem-solving approaches within each organization they serve.

Interestingly, the fractional CMO model is gaining traction. The value they bring to businesses has led to a rise in their popularity with companies seeking top-tier marketing strategy and execution without the need for a full-time commitment.

Key Takeaway: 

 

A fractional CMO is a part-time marketing leader who brings their expertise to help businesses refine strategies and achieve goals. They offer flexibility, adaptability, and cost savings for companies not needing full-time executives. Juggling multiple roles across different sectors also lets them introduce innovative problem-solving approaches.

Transitioning into a Fractional CMO Role

Becoming a fractional CMO requires more than just a change in job title. It’s about adopting new strategies, adjusting to flexible work hours, and often dealing with multiple companies at once. The transition from full-time to fractional isn’t always smooth, but it can be made easier by understanding the demands of the role.

The shift starts with realigning your marketing strategies. As studies show, companies that align their business objectives and marketing plans are three times more likely to reach their goals. This means you’ll need to spend time learning each client’s unique target market, sales pipeline, and current marketing efforts.

Finding Your Niche as a Fractional CMO

In order for your consulting role to truly shine, find an industry or two where you already have solid experience and connections. For instance, if you’ve spent years working on startup companies’ digital marketing campaigns, then that might be your ideal client base.

Your niche will also dictate how much clients are willing to pay for your services, so consider this when determining your fractional CMO cost structure. Remember though: while potential clients may balk at higher rates initially, they’re typically willing to pay premium prices for proven expertise within specific industries.

Gaining Certifications & Expertise

You don’t necessarily need formal certifications, but becoming a certified fractional CMO can lend credibility when attracting potential clients – especially those unfamiliar with what exactly ‘fractional’ entails. Check out our Fractional CMO Certification and License, which offers training and tools specifically tailored towards budding marketers wanting to transition into the world of the Fractional CMO

Maintaining Flexibility in Your Schedule

Retaining flexibility in your schedule is a major benefit of fractional work, as it’s typically done on a retainer basis, allowing you to set hours that suit your lifestyle and work with multiple companies at once. This means you can set hours that suit your lifestyle and work with multiple companies at once.

The key to successfully managing this type of schedule? Having excellent project management skills and being able to prioritize tasks effectively across all your clients’ projects.

Key Takeaway: 

 

Transitioning to a fractional CMO role involves adjusting your strategies, embracing flexible hours, and handling multiple companies. It’s crucial to align business objectives with marketing plans for success. Finding your niche enhances the value of your services while gaining relevant certifications can boost credibility. Effective project management skills are key in managing a flexible schedule.

Benefits of Hiring a Fractional CMO

If you’re a business owner, the thought of hiring a full-time Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) may have crossed your mind. But have you considered going fractional? A fractional CMO can offer some compelling benefits.

Cost-Effectiveness of Hiring A Fractional CMO

The cost difference between hiring a full-time and fractional CMO is staggering. In fact, opting for a fractional route can be significantly less costly than its full-time counterpart. You only pay for what you need – this flexible model lets companies save on overheads while still benefiting from top-tier marketing expertise.

Apart from savings in salary expenses, businesses also reduce costs associated with benefits and other employee perks that are usually provided to permanent hires. This makes it an affordable option especially for startups or small to mid-sized firms that want expert guidance without burning through their budget.

This financial advantage extends beyond just cost-saving; it’s about value maximization too. With no long-term commitment required, businesses can tap into seasoned marketing professionals’ skills and knowledge base as needed – getting maximum bang for every buck spent.

Fractional CMOS bring years of experience across multiple industries which means they’re quick off the mark when designing effective strategies tailored to specific business objectives. They understand current marketing trends like digital media landscape shifts or customer preferences evolution because they work with various clients across sectors concurrently.

In essence, hiring one is like having access to several experienced marketers at once but at higher rate efficiency. These specialists provide comprehensive solutions rather than disjointed efforts typical within large organizations where departments often operate in silos – making them great additions particularly if your company lacks an established marketing department yet needs strategic direction.

And let’s not forget about the flexibility. Unlike a full-time CMO who works standard office hours, fractional CMOs operate on a retainer basis. They can adjust their schedule to meet your company’s unique needs – providing extra support during product launches or scaling back in slower periods for instance – ensuring resources are optimally utilized at all times.

So, if you’re looking for different methods…

Key Takeaway: 

 

Choosing a fractional CMO over a full-time one can be an affordable, value-packed move. You get top-tier marketing expertise without hefty overheads and flexible support that adjusts to your business needs. Plus, you tap into the wealth of experience from multiple industries for effective strategies tailored to your objectives.

Skills and Expertise of a Fractional CMO

A successful fractional CMO is more than just a marketing expert. They possess the capabilities to think strategically, resolve issues, construct teams and direct businesses. But what exactly sets them apart? Let’s dive into their unique skill set.

Tech Savvy

The digital landscape evolves rapidly; therefore it’s crucial for fractional CMOs to stay ahead of the curve. Knowledge in key resources such as digital tools for day-to-day tasks can significantly impact their success.

Versatility

Fractional CMOs typically juggle multiple companies at once, adapting strategies to various markets and customer bases with ease. This ability to switch gears swiftly while maintaining effectiveness is an invaluable trait that comes from extensive marketing experience.

Strategic Approach

An effective fractional CMO knows how to align current marketing strategies with overall business objectives – a task three times more likely to yield goal achievement according to studies. Strategic thinking combined with a deep understanding of the client’s target market drives great results in this role.

Salesmanship & Client Retention Skills

Beyond crafting stellar campaigns or setting up an efficient sales pipeline, these professionals also need excellent consulting skills – being able not only attract potential clients but keep them engaged over time too.

Pricing Strategy Development

An overlooked yet critical part of the job involves determining fair pricing structures based on value delivered rather than hours worked. This higher rate strategy allows businesses access top-level expertise without bearing full-time costs.

Leadership & Management Skills

Fractional CMOs are often tasked with leading the marketing team or department, requiring strong leadership skills. The ability to guide a group towards shared goals while fostering an environment of growth and learning is paramount.

In conclusion, stepping into the shoes of a fractional CMO isn’t just about mastering traditional marketing roles. It’s all about welcoming change and smartly using technology to drive business success.

Key Takeaway: 

 

A successful fractional CMO is a tech-savvy leader who can juggle multiple companies, adapt strategies swiftly, and align marketing with business objectives. Their skills go beyond crafting campaigns – they’re also excellent consultants who develop fair pricing based on value delivered. It’s not just about mastering traditional roles; it’s about embracing change and leveraging technology for success.

Scaling Your Fractional CMO Business

If you’re a fractional CMO, growth is always on your mind. But it’s not just about gaining more customers; it is also essential to provide superior services and make sure clients stay. Scaling requires optimizing every facet of your business from acquiring new clients to delivering top-notch service.

Adopting Value-Based Pricing Models

The pricing model you adopt can significantly impact the scalability of your business. One strategy that many successful fractional CMOs use is value-based pricing.

In contrast to hourly rates or fixed retainer fees, value-based pricing models focus on the tangible results you deliver for your clients rather than how much time you spend working for them. This approach lets businesses see exactly what they’re paying for and allows fractional CMOs to scale their revenue without necessarily increasing workload.

You might be wondering how this ties into scaling a marketing agency-like operation where multiple companies are being served simultaneously by one chief marketing officer? Well, let me tell you – with such an arrangement comes great job responsibility but also higher rate earning potential. With this strategic approach in place, potential clients often feel more secure knowing they’re getting bang for their buck while certified fractional CMO’s get paid commensurate with the outcomes they drive rather than simply trading hours for dollars.

This shift towards outcome-driven work isn’t just good news for us marketers – it benefits our customers too because we become more focused on driving real change within their organization instead of ticking off tasks on our daily list. It helps create stronger relationships built around mutual success which leads to increased customer loyalty and therefore long-term sustainable growth both parties benefit from.

Remember, becoming a fractional CMO doesn’t mean you have to sacrifice the quality of your work or client relationships. By adopting strategies like value-based pricing and focusing on results-driven services, you can effectively scale your business while continuing to deliver top-notch marketing leadership.

Key Takeaway: 

 

Growth Strategy: As a fractional CMO, scale your business not just by adding clients but delivering quality services and retaining them. Optimize all facets of your operations.

 

Value-Based Pricing: Making a shift from hourly rates to value-based pricing can be game-changing. This model gives you rewards based on tangible results, not just the hours worked. It’s an approach that allows your revenue to scale up.

Building Networks as a Fractional CMO

Networking is vital for any fractional CMO. It’s like the roots of a tree, spreading out to support growth and stability. Building professional relationships with other marketing leaders can open doors to new opportunities, help you stay updated on current marketing strategies, and provide key resources when needed.

Your network might include fellow fractional CMOs who understand your role intimately. They can offer advice based on their own experiences and even refer potential clients if they are unable to take them on themselves. Having a robust network of other fractional CMOs creates an ecosystem where everyone supports each other’s success.

The power of networking doesn’t stop at just connecting with peers though; it extends into the business world too. Your connections could be prospective clients or people who can introduce you to ideal clients within your target market.

Finding Networking Opportunities

To build these important connections, you need places that attract like-minded professionals in the field—marketing events (both online and offline), seminars, workshops are great starting points. But don’t forget about digital platforms. Social media sites such as LinkedIn make it easy for certified fractional CMOs typically involved in multiple companies simultaneously to connect across geographies.

An active presence here lets others see what kind of work you’re doing which adds credibility – because seeing is believing.

Nurturing Relationships

A well-built relationship requires more than just exchanging business cards or adding contacts on LinkedIn; nurturing those relationships through regular interactions is essential. This involves sharing insights from your consulting experience regularly or providing helpful feedback – remember that giving often receives.

The Payoff of Networking

Investing time in networking might seem like a daunting task with no immediate returns. By taking the time to build your network, you can create a strong support system for yourself when dealing with changing marketing trends and open doors to new clients or partnership opportunities.

Networking might just be the key to landing your next big client or unlocking a profitable partnership opportunity. It’s a must to concentrate on creating those ties.

Key Takeaway: 

 

As a fractional CMO, think of networking as the roots supporting your growth. It opens doors to new opportunities and keeps you in touch with current marketing strategies. Not only fellow CMOs but also potential clients are crucial parts of this network. Remember, places like marketing events or digital platforms such as LinkedIn can be excellent hubs for building connections.

Future Trends in Fractional CMO Practice

The practice of fractional CMOs is not static; it evolves with the ever-changing marketing landscape. It’s no secret that technology advancements and market growth are shaping this evolution, making for exciting future trends.

One major trend to note involves digital transformation. Today’s digital age necessitates tech-savvy leaders who can navigate the sea of data analytics, AI-powered tools, and automation platforms. This demand aligns perfectly with a key strength of fractional CMOs: their vast experience across multiple companies gives them an edge when implementing new technologies or refining current marketing strategies.

Fractional CMO services are also growing due to economic factors like budget constraints and fluctuating business needs. For startups seeking high-level marketing leadership without the full-time cost commitment, a certified fractional CMO fits right into their strategic approach.

Tech-Driven Marketing Strategies

A big part of future trends revolves around how we use technology to enhance our marketing efforts. The power vested in advanced analytics allows us marketers to pinpoint ideal clients better than ever before by evaluating customer behavior patterns down to minute details—giving rise towards more personalized messaging strategies.

Growth Potential Highlighted By Ad Spend

To understand just how much potential there is for growth within the field itself, consider this stat: Global ad spend is expected to exceed $1 trillion by 2024. That figure underscores the potential of the fractional CMO business. As ad spend grows, so too does the need for experienced marketers who can strategically allocate those funds.

Consulting Experience Pays Off

Many fractional CMOs have a consulting background, which provides them with a unique skill set to navigate changes in the marketing landscape. The ability to adapt and provide expert guidance is essential as new trends emerge—be it shifts in consumer behavior or advancements in MarTech tools.

So, if you’re eyeing career paths that can stand strong against economic ups and downs and tech advancements—consider a Fractional CMO role. It’s an option that offers stability in uncertain times.

Key Takeaway: 

 

With your consulting background, you’re well equipped to adapt and strategize fund allocation in this fast-paced market. Navigating data analytics, AI tools, and automation platforms becomes a breeze with your cross-industry experience. As we approach an era where ad spend is projected to skyrocket past $1 trillion by 2024, the demand for seasoned marketers like you who can tactfully navigate these waters has never been more vital.

FAQs in Relation to Become a Fractional Cmo

How do you become a fractional CMO?

To morph into a fractional CMO, amass experience in marketing leadership roles, master the latest strategies and tools, then offer your services on an as-needed basis to businesses.

How much do fractional CMOs make?

The cash pull for Fractional CMOs can range widely. Based on their skills and client base, they may bank anywhere from $60k to $200k yearly.

How much should you pay a fractional CMO?

Forking over between $1.5k-$10k monthly is typical when hiring a Fractional CMO; however this depends heavily on their expertise level and your business needs.

What does it mean to be a fractional CMO?

A fractionally-employed Chief Marketing Officer provides top-tier marketing strategy part-time or per project rather than full time – helping businesses cut costs while maintaining quality.

Conclusion

Cracking the code to become a fractional CMO isn’t as complex as it seems.

The role is all about flexibility, impact and mastery in marketing. You’re stepping into multiple businesses, helping them align their marketing strategies with business objectives without requiring full-time commitment or cost.

You’ve learned that transitioning from a full-time CMO to a fractional one requires certain skills – strategic thinking, experience in various industries, proficiency in digital tools – but brings significant rewards too. Cost-effectiveness for your clients and scalability for your practice being just two of them.

Beyond this though lies networking opportunities with other professionals who are walking similar paths; sharing insights can help you navigate future trends and market growth potential more effectively.

You can build all of this on your own or you can license our entire Fractional CMO system and start scaling your business today.



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Saturday, October 7, 2023

Weekend Favs October 7

Weekend Favs October 7 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • Dreamlook – Are you frustrated with the quality of the images you can generate with AI online? with Dreamlook you can generate the best AI images without sacrificing the quality of your pictures.
  • Stable Difussion – Unlock the power of creativity with Stable Diffusion XL, a remarkable text-to-image diffusion model that brings your ideas to life in stunning photo-realistic detail. This cutting-edge AI tool not only empowers you to produce incredible imagery from simple text inputs but also fosters a sense of autonomous freedom, allowing you to explore and create without limits.
  • PhotoShop Generative Fill – Create more photos with complete creative control. Now, you can use Generative Fill  to make powerful edits and additions to images, then perfect them with Photoshop’s editing tools.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.



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Thursday, October 5, 2023

Beyond the Full-Time CMO: How Companies are Opting for a Fractional Future

Beyond the Full-Time CMO: How Companies are Opting for a Fractional Future written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nicole Bernard

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast hosted by John Jantsch and featuring Nicole Bernard

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nicole Bernard, a seasoned marketing professional with an impressive legacy that includes stints at Microsoft and collaborations with big names like REMAX and Venus Williams. We dive deep into the transformative realm of the Fractional CMO, uncovering the nuances and potential it holds for modern businesses. With Nicole’s first-hand experiences and insights, we explored how this Fractional CMO trend is not just a fleeting fad but a strategic maneuver that’s reshaping the contours of business leadership in today’s dynamic landscape.

Key Takeaway:

The rise of the Fractional CMO marks a significant shift in the way businesses perceive leadership roles. Companies, by opting for a Fractional CMO, are not just seeking to cut costs but are keen on leveraging the diverse expertise and perspectives these professionals bring. Operating across varied industries, Fractional CMOs offer a fresh, tailored approach, helping businesses to be more agile, adaptive, and strategic in their planning

Questions I ask Nicole Bernard

  • [00:46] What exactly is a fractional CMO? How would you briefly describe this role to someone unfamiliar with it?
  • [01:28] In your opinion, what type of business is the ideal fit for a Fractional CMO? Specifically, what might be missing in such a company that you can fulfill?
  • [02:36] Do you find that the market is starting to wake up to both the need for strategy?
  • [03:42] Can you define the specific responsibilities and boundaries of a Fractional CMO?
  • [04:40] In your role, how often do you find yourself involved in the actual implementation?
  • [05:20] Could you shed some light on your business model? How do you handle tasks that might go beyond what you personally offer? Do you collaborate with a team or partners?
  • [06:14] One challenge of the Fractional CMO model is essentially selling your time. How do you avoid this?
  • [07:30] Is it challenging to define a clear scope for clients regarding what they can expect from a Fractional CMO?
  • [09:25] What are some potential pitfalls associated with this model?
  • [10:43] How has adopting the Fractional CMO title influenced your relationship with clients?
  • [11:50] Have you noticed any changes in client relationships over time, perhaps in terms of duration or their reliance on you?
  • [12:48] Upon starting with a new client, are there specific initial steps you consistently follow?
  • [14:11] In terms of educating clients, how does this role differ from traditional agency models?
  • [15:10] A traditional CMO often has the task of building a team. In your experience, do you often work with companies lacking strategic hires, and do you assist in team building?

More About Nicole:

  • See how you can work with Nicole – Here
  • Listen to the Bubbles and Biz Podcast – Here
  • Connect with Nicole Bernard on LinkedIn

Get Your Free AI Prompts To Build A Marketing Strategy:

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John Jantsch (00:08): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Nicole Bernard. She began her career with Microsoft over 17 years ago, and since that time has owned and operated two successful businesses, as well as worked with other major brands, including Max and Venus Williams. She also hosts a popular podcast called Bubbles and Biz and is a contributing writer to entrepreneur. We're going to talk about her fractional CMO experience. As you know, I'm doing a few shows specifically on that topic. So Nicole, welcome to the show.

Nicole Bernard (00:44): Thanks for having me. I'm excited to connect and chat today.

John Jantsch (00:46): So the term fractional C M o, while it's become I think more mainstream still has a lot of people confused, if somebody asked you, you're at a party and you said, I'm a fractional C M O, and they said, what the heck is that? How would you briefly give a description of what that is? Yeah,

Nicole Bernard (01:04): I think the word fractional just throws people off, whether it's like C O O or c e o, any of that. But yeah, I explained that it is. I help what companies and businesses I work with their teams, but for not full-time. So just a fraction of what they would need because they're not quite in the capacity to have a full-time C M O. So I come in and I'm able to support them in their teams with their budget and the time that they have.

John Jantsch (01:29): I always like to ask, who do you think? What's the perfect business that needs one of those? You talk about a company with a team, theoretically they're getting marketing done, so what's missing in the right perfect business for you to work with?

Nicole Bernard (01:42): Yeah, so yeah, the few that I have worked with and consulted with over the years that were just prime for the spot, they've been in business for a while, they're building their teams. A few are architectural design companies. One was a big staffing company and they had the team in place. They had actually a social media director and marketing director, but they didn't have that one piece to tie them all together to start looking at the 20,000 foot level as well as keep them on track to execute the day-to-day and week to week. So that's kind of where I've seen it. They've been in business for a while, they're doing well, but something's missing and they're looking for that one piece to take it to the next level.

John Jantsch (02:18): Do you find that the market is recognizing that term? I mean, I've essentially been doing fractional C M L model for probably 15, 20 years, but 15, 20 years ago if I'd a total business that they would've looked at me like I was crazy. Right. But I think the whole fractional model itself is leaking into a lot of areas. So do you find that the market is starting to wake up to both the need for strategy and the concept of outside strategic help? I

Nicole Bernard (02:44): Think so. I mean, I feel like I'm seeing the word fractional again in front of different executive level titles a lot more and more. And even when people hear it, it's still kind of that confused look, but they're able to grasp it a lot quicker than I think they would've not too long ago. And I don't know if that covid helped with it either, or was it just kind of around the same time that a lot of these different kind of positions came available?

John Jantsch (03:12): Yeah, I think Covid helped in two ways. Frankly, I think a lot of businesses got caught off guard and realized what, we don't have a strategy. So I think that was part of it, and I think there's a whole lot of CMOs out there that said, I'm going to go start my own thing. And so I think you had this convergence of supply and demand increasing at the same time.

Nicole Bernard (03:30): Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's kind of where my experience of being a fractional cmmo kind of took off. It was right before, and then Covid kind of bumped it up and over.

John Jantsch (03:40): Yeah, so here's what a fractional C M O does. Here's what we don't do. I mean, do you have this fine line of here's what you're going to get from me?

Nicole Bernard (03:52): But I think every business is so different. So it still has to be so adaptable to that specific business and what their goals are and all of that. But you have a general, we start in the beginning with your foundation, what they're looking for, what they're missing, and then again, identify where their people are, their buyer personas, and then start to build out that strategy of what would work the best for them. And then depending if they do have a team or not, or how big they are, just what those expectations are and what the reporting, all of those things. So

John Jantsch (04:21): I think in this model, in a perfect world, there's a whole lot of people that would like to come in and say, here's everything you need to do, see you later. But most businesses, I mean that I've worked with anyway over the years have said, wait, who's going to do all this now? Or will you stick around and at very least help us orchestrate? Do you find that you are increasingly getting either drug into or having to push back on actual implementation?

Nicole Bernard (04:48): So I think when they start to understand it, and those initial first meetings, they're like, oh, this is amazing. But they start to get a little overwhelmed, like, oh, we need to be doing all of this and we need to track all of this. So that has ended up being longer term relationships, and I probably thought that they would, but it's been great. And I think also the accountability. So since they're not 100% sure they want someone to guide them and or have their team answer to them. So yeah, definitely a little bit longer probably than I

John Jantsch (05:20): Thought. So tell me a little bit about your particular business model, organization wise. Are you doing this kind of on your own? Because you can, do you have a team of implementers or if somebody does need more than say you personally can provide, do you bring in partners? What's kind of been your model?

Nicole Bernard (05:38): Yeah, so I started as a marketing agency back in 2016, after we closed our first business and just did strictly done for you services. And then again, kind of branched out in 2019 with this. So I have a team, like a graphic designer, I have writers, I have a marketing assistant, so that's able to take that part of the business. And then for fractional cmo, that's just all me, but if they do need help, we're able to, which is kind of nice to dual service them if they're not wanting to do all of the marketing tasks. So kind of two different models, but just parallel with each other.

John Jantsch (06:14): So here's the big question that I run up against with a lot of people that have either want to do this model or have actually jumped out in doing this model of fractional C M O. In some ways, you're just kind of selling your time. I mean, it's like I can divide myself in three ways. You get this and you get that and you get that. Do you find that's a little bit of the challenge of this model is that, I mean, you may be well paid for your time, but you only have so much time,

Nicole Bernard (06:43): Right? Yes, because definitely a cap on how much you can do as far as selling your time, and then too, even not just being on the meetings or the calls, there's other admin and things to take care of. So that is definitely, I think we all need more clones of each other or something to solve that.

John Jantsch (07:01): Do you work from a framework? The reason I ask that particular question is actually, I mean, we actually have a fractional C M O system that we license to people. And what makes it work is it has scope. It's like, here's what we're going to do. Whereas I think a lot of times business owners don't really know what they need, but they're willing to tell you what they need. And so if you just kind of go, okay, yeah, we can do that, and we'll be in this meetings on Tuesdays, and next thing you know get sort of sucked in to the business, do you find that, have you found it hard to put a scope around what they're going to get from you as a fractional sema?

Nicole Bernard (07:38): Yeah, and I think at the beginning I didn't as well, and I didn't set boundaries super well, so I'd be answering emails at 11 o'clock at night. So yeah, so there's definitely a

John Jantsch (07:49): Framework. You're an employee even though you're not. Yes, exactly.

Nicole Bernard (07:52): Definitely a framework and boundaries that clear on in our kickoff call, so everybody's just on the same page and understands what is expected and where we're going and things like that. But definitely I did not in the beginning, and that was a little hard to overcome. Hey,

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(10:06): Look, go to hellofresh.com/50duct, that's D U C T, and use the code 50 duct, and you're going to get 50% off plus another 15% off the next two months. So that's https://ift.tt/QVtEFvL . And again, don't forget to use that code 50 duct D U C t, and you're going to get 50% off and another 15% off for your next two months. I'm sure that every one of your engagements has been amazing, but tell me where you assume potentially now where have been some real pitfalls. You didn't do this and so it turned into that, or you didn't identify something or the expectations were wrong. Where are the potential, we've started to allude to a little bit, but where do you find some of the potential pitfalls with this model can be?

Nicole Bernard (11:02): Yeah, so I think it kind of ties in with that the first, or just the question a second ago of really setting those expectations because I don't think business owners realize how long marketing can take to start really seeing results, especially if they're not doing paid media or anything like that, which a lot of 'em that I've worked with to have a little bit of both, but you're going to wait a little while for SS e o to kick in. And I think they're wanting results extremely fast, and we are getting results, but not kind of what they have, I think, in their mind of what should be happening. So just setting, again, those expectations of this might, depending on the strategies that we're working on, this might take a little bit longer, and I didn't do the best job explaining that in the beginning as well, but now I definitely do.

John Jantsch (11:49): Yeah, I mean, you could make a case for saying you avoid those problems choosing the right client. Right, exactly. Which obviously until you have a little experience doing this, that sounds good, but it's sort of hard to figure out, right?

Nicole Bernard (12:03): Yeah, definitely.

John Jantsch (12:04): So when you had your agency, and in many cases agency model is even though you're going to do some strategic work, a lot of it's thought of like, no, you're brought in to do this project, then this project. Did you find that when you went to the fractional C M O positioning at least that it changed or it created a different relationship with the client?

Nicole Bernard (12:25): Yeah, it definitely did because my agency clients, they're great, had 'em for years, but there's a little bit of a different kind of relationship that you have as the fraction C M O. It's a lot more hands-on, more meetings. We have meetings in the agency world, but we send reports, so it's a little bit more disconnected than getting really in their rolling your sleeves up and the fractional C M O with the business and their team for sure.

John Jantsch (12:52): Here's what I've noticed too, because we've done the same thing over the years, is that I think businesses tend to view their agency partners as more vendors, whereas in the fractional, especially when somebody comes in, I mean you get close to the business, you're probably getting into areas that they didn't think were even marketing with them eventually. And you become this trusted advisor for them, don't you? And I think that change is a great deal, and in fact, you talked a little bit about client relationships going on maybe longer than you originally thought they would. Do you feel that there's any aspect of they just want you around?

Nicole Bernard (13:27): Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it's funny. You really do develop a deeper relationship than just businesswise. Like you see, they'll tell you about your fit, their family and things like that. And so it's just that trusted relationship and wanting that to keep going. Plus, I think the accountability factor has been huge too. That has been one of the biggest things I've seen that people really do want, and that also just sometimes I feel like you're okay, you're ready. Everything you need to do, you're ready to graduate, you don't need me anymore. And some of them are, well, no, I kind of still do. So it's been just kind of figuring that out. You're ready to graduate.

John Jantsch (14:07): I have a client that I've had since 2004, and they really literally just want a monthly check in with me. I mean, they just want to, here's what we're doing, everything's going good. Do you see anything? And I think there is a bit of that. They've just gotten used to it.

Nicole Bernard (14:21): Definitely.

John Jantsch (14:22): So when somebody first hires you in this role, do you have, here's what we have to do first. I mean, we have to go analyze and we have to go talk to your, tell me what your first 30 days looks like.

Nicole Bernard (14:35): Yeah, so I definitely start with a pretty good audit of what they're doing and then run some different tests on my own and see where our baseline is at, what they're struggling with, what their goals are, their positioning. B two C is way different than B two B marketing. So just starting at that baseline, getting all of these, and it's funny too, a lot of times when I start doing that, the business owners are like, oh, I don't even know where that's at. Or I'm not sure. They start peeling all of these layers of the onion that they didn't even really know that they had to. But then they're also so relieved now they're looking at the broad picture, okay, this is everything. And they feel a little bit more in control finally starting to take control of it. And then, yeah, I've got a whole workbook that we start with, again, their buyer persona, their dates, things like that, their smart goals, and they have a kickoff call and then then we start meeting and implementing. And then from there, reporting, just seeing what's working, what we need to fix, things like that. But that 30 days is, it's a lot quickly, but then, yeah, kind start that cadence of meeting expectations.

John Jantsch (15:44): How much training or teaching do you feel like this involves over, say, a traditional kind of agency model?

Nicole Bernard (15:52): Yeah, I think it's a good bit because they are wanting to understand, whereas a vendor, they just want you to take care of it. As a marketing agency, I am not really sure. I don't really care. They don't care, but they just want it to be done. In this model, I find that they want to know what's happening and why it's happening so they can better understand, which has been great. It's been really fun, and I've learned that I actually really teaching them as we're going along. And it's kind of neat too for them to be like, oh, that's why we're doing that.

John Jantsch (16:24): So one of the accountabilities of a traditional C M O is to build the department or the team. Do you find you end up working with folks that they don't have a strategic hire, maybe they've hired a couple people, like everybody, they're young so they can do social media or whatever kind of the typical structures. Do you find that, do you come into roles ever and help people build a team?

Nicole Bernard (16:46): Yeah, I've done that as well. Yeah, sometimes it's usually they'll hire a social media person and then kind of think that's all of marketing, and we're like, no, there's a whole bunch of other aspects. But yes, and I really enjoy that too, kind of, because I think that's also, sometimes it's a big step of hiring someone to bring onto your team. So again, getting that feedback, they like to confide and figure out what their hire looks like. So yeah, that's been really fun too.

John Jantsch (17:11): Well, and in many cases, they don't have a strategic marketing hire because they really don't understand marketing that fully themselves. So I think having somebody who can help 'em define a role, what that role would do, maybe even manage, I know in cases we've really done a lot of the managing of some of the roles because they didn't have 'em because they didn't want to do that part. So I think there's a lot of growth that can happen now from

Nicole Bernard (17:36): Yes, definitely. And I'm going to, in the beginning too, a lot of times it's the owner or higher up, then they're kind of on the calls and then they hire the right people, and then they kind of fall off. They're still wanting to be in the mix a little here and there, and they'll hop on. But then once they hire that person, that's what they actually need, not just like a social media marketer then. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:58): Awesome. Well, Nicole, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to share a little bit about this evolving role you want to, is there anywhere you want to invite people to find more about your work or connect with you?

Nicole Bernard (18:09): Yeah, you can head to my website. It's just NB.Marketing, so it does talk about the agency and also the fractional C M O services. And from there you'll find the link to the podcast too and articles that I write. So that's a great place to go.

John Jantsch (18:23): Tell me a little about your podcast. Just are you doing solo shows or you do interviews or

Nicole Bernard (18:27): No, I do interviews. You'll have to come on. Yeah. I ship champagne to my guests and we sit there and we pop open the bottle and we talk about our entrepreneurial journeys and different tools. They like, what marketing works for their business, different things like that.

John Jantsch (18:43): It's been a lot of fun. So that's the bubbles and biz. Okay, I get it now. Yep. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and the next time, hopefully I'm in Hood River, Oregon. We can connect in real life.

Nicole Bernard (18:55): Yes, that would be great. Thanks for having me.

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Wednesday, October 4, 2023

Beyond the Buzzwords: Learn How to Develop Your Writing Voice

Beyond the Buzzwords: Learn How to Develop Your Writing Voice written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Anne Janzer

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed ​​Anne Janzer, a nonfiction book coach and author of multiple books on writing and marketing. Human behavior and cognitive science fascinate her, and she is always searching for clues to improve our communications.

Her newest book The Writer’s Voice: Techniques for Tuning Your Tone and Style; helps you Master the art and science of writing voice. This is a comprehensive, hands-on guide to this little-understood aspect of writing, brand voice, ghostwriting, and other aspects of marketing.

Key Takeaway:

In this conversation with Anne Janzer, we delve into the captivating world of writing, marketing, and the intriguing intersection of human behavior and cognitive science. Anne’s latest book, “The Writer’s Voice,” is a treasure trove of insights, offering a comprehensive guide to mastering the art and science of writing voice. Through our discussion, we uncover the secrets behind crafting a distinct brand voice, explore the nuances of ghostwriting, and gain a deeper understanding of the multifaceted realm of marketing. Join us on this enlightening journey to enhance your writing and marketing prowess, armed with the wisdom Anne shares from her extensive experience as a nonfiction book coach and author.

Questions I ask

  • [00:40] What made you fascinated with the idea of voice in writing?
  • [02:56] Does the voice in writing changes over time?
  • [03:29] What are the most common mistakes people make when they are trying to find their voice?
  • [06:25] Are people able to choose and develop different writing voices?
  • [07:23] How much responsibility do we have with the reader?
  • [12:55] Could you help us define what’s the difference between tone and voice?
  • [14:05] Tell us more about your latest book.
  • [16:18] Can you recommend some exercises for people to do?

 

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John (00:09): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Ann Janzer. She's a non-fiction book coach and author of multiple books on writing and marketing, human behavior and cognitive science fascinate her and she is always searching for clues to improve our communication. We're going to talk about our newest book, the Writer's Voice Techniques for Tuning Your Tone and Style. So Ann, welcome back to the show.

Ann (00:38): Thanks for having me back, John. It's great being here.

John (00:40): So let's talk a little bit, obviously voice and style, tone and style, writer's voice. I know prior to you writing your own books, you started writing other people's books, basically writing in other people's voices, right? And tones. Would you say that that kind of developed your fascination with this idea of voice?

Ann (00:58): It was actually. So I haven't done ghostwriting for books. I've done one book, but it was my marketing career. I was a freelance marketer and every week I'd pop over to a new company and try to figure out how to write in their brand voice. And sometimes actually fairly often with the small companies, I would define the brand voice for them. And then as blogs came out, I started ghost writing for executives, blog posts and interviews and all kinds of stuff. So that definitely piqued my interest in writing voice and it taught me a lot and it got me interested in the topic. I think it's the most neglected and misunderstood part of the writing craft, but there are four groups of people that pay a lot of attention. Ghost writers, obviously poets care a lot about voice fiction writers because they're trying to get their characters voices and marketers, marketers because they really care how they show up to their customer as part of that relationship with is the brand voice.

John (01:56): So would you say that you feel like, yes, I have a voice, I know what it is, maybe I haven't perfected it, but I mean I know when I'm doing it,

Ann (02:06): I feel there's a lot of talk about finding your authentic voice and I think voices are like shoes. There are shoes that fit us really, really well, but I wouldn't wear my hiking shoes to the opera. I think we should be able to pull on the right one for the right occasion, and we almost know how to do that instinctively if we're intentional about it. So yeah, when I first set out to write my first book, all of a sudden I was writing in my own voice and not the customers and the first draft started coming out just too much like a corporate it. There was some. So I had to keep going back and it wasn't really until I got the second and the third edition of that book that I really got comfortable in. What's my writing voice for a book? What part of me do I want to be? How do I want to show up for people there? What do they need to hear from me?

John (02:56): And just as a writer, would you say that that's something that matures in people? I know I started really first writing seriously 30 years ago, and I look back at some of that now and it's awful. And not to say that my writing is brilliant today, but it's certainly changed.

Ann (03:16): I do. I think even if you were writing in a voice that feels authentic and comfortable for the situation, we change, we develop our speaking voices age over time. So why wouldn't our writing voices change as well? Yeah, I do think so.

John (03:29): For me, I'll just use myself as an example. I became more authentic when I became more confident in my writing because I wasn't as worried about using big words or whatever it was I was trying to do. So let's talk a little bit about some of the early mistakes somebody might make when they're trying to find a voice.

Ann (03:45): Sure. Yeah. So one thing we do is we try to write the people around us and then we're not really comfortable. It's like wearing shoes that don't fit quite right. I think other people can tell we're walking funny because our shoes aren't fitting quite right. So I keep going back to the shoe metaphor. I don't know why. But yeah, so people think, well, I want to be an expert, so I'm going to show up with the big words. That's the most common thing I see. And that just backfires so badly with the reader if they're not familiar with those words or you're just making them do extra cognitive work. And I'd rather have them focused on my ideas and not my sentence structures or not my vocabulary. So that's a really common mistake. I think too often people think, oh, I'm going to write a book now, or I'm going to write this important essay and I'm going to put on my serious writer hat and I'm going to try to think back to what I did in college and I'm going to do long sentences and I'm going to really try to uplevel it.

(04:40): And that almost always backfires. It's not comfortable. It's hard for the reader and it doesn't give them really good sense of who you are because you're putting on something that may not feel legit to who you are,

John (04:53): Right or wrong. There's a lot of advice out there, particularly in writing for business circles that talks about writing at the eighth grade level or something like that, whatever the level is supposed to be, somewhere less than you might write your college essay type of work. Does that show up in voice, first off? Is that valid? And secondly, does that show up as part of voice?

Ann (05:13): So first, I think it is valid in the sense that most marketing writing, it's not that your customers are dumb or don't have college degrees, but they're reading it on their phone while they're in line for a Starbucks, for heaven sakes, how

John (05:24): Much don't make me work,

Ann (05:26): Don't make them work too much. And this is so true. If you're writing an email, my goodness, just highlight the things you want people to do with it. So yes, so I think the eighth grade thing is valid. The really interesting thing, and there's a chapter in the book on this, is that most of those grade level things are based on two factors and two factors only. How long your words are, how many syllables there are in a word, and how many words there are per sentence. And so if you just go to some shorter words and shorter sentences, your grade level goes, and so you think, well, is that a legitimate measure? But I think it is because longer sentences make us keep more working memory involved in a sentence before we can close it and compute the idea. So I think that's legit. So that was part

John (06:08): One. Anyone who's edited my work over the years, I use a lot of parenthetical phrases and they just are always cutting those out. Darn it.

Ann (06:17): I am also a huge fan of the parenthetical and you know what, you do what you need to do in your first draft and then you can tune it and revision.

John (06:25): So I'm curious about this idea of selecting voice. I tend to think I write the same voice no matter what I'm writing, but that may or may not be true. But is there kind of like I'm going to choose this voice today, I'm going to choose this voice today dependent upon the situation, or are we really that flexible?

Ann (06:41): Well, we are flexible to some degree. I mean, if you were writing something to a third grade classroom, I'm going to say you would write it differently a little bit. I mean, our relationship with the people we're communicating with voice is just, writing is just another kind of human communication, and we have some native skills for that. What I want people to do is think about being intentional about the choices they make about how they're showing up just because this is comfortable way for you to write and it's the way you've always written. Is this what the reader needs from you in this situation? Do they maybe need more encouragement and less expertise or vice versa? I mean, what does the reader need? And then you can lean into that part of your natural human communication skills.

John (07:23): I was going to talk about the reader. Obviously every reader would probably interpret voice differently. I mean, somebody reads Cormick McCarthy, for example, differently. Probably not everybody gets the same thing out of that. So how much responsibility do we have to start with the reader?

Ann (07:38): Yeah, well if we think about it, the voice is reconstructed in the reader's head. It doesn't really live in the page. It only lives when it lands in the reader. And to some extent, that's a little bit out of our control. Someone can show up in a really bad mood and just say, your voice sounds like this or that, and we've all had bad reviews of something. Maybe it's like, wow, okay, I never saw that in there, but okay, you did. So we can be intentional and try to help the reader find it in the way that we hope that they will, that will be most helpful to them. I cited a study in the book, which I think is really, really interesting and it would be interesting to reflect on is when you read silently, a lot of people, they kind of have a little inner reading voice. They're actually narrating to themselves silently and quickly, but they're narrating. And I've talked to people about this and some people are like, oh yeah, I think it's my voice. Or if I know the author, it's their voice. But people kind of hear a voice. So your voice in writing doesn't really belong to you. It belongs to the reader, which is a crazy thought. And

John (08:41): It is interesting. I know sort of along the lines, reading your own writing out loud changes or maybe you put the inflection that you meant to be there, but it certainly can change or it's a good test almost, right? Does this sound like what I want it to sound like? Because that's maybe how the readers or the listener's going to experience it.

Ann (08:59): Yeah, reading your own out loud, reading other people's writing out loud can tell you something about what they're doing, which is always really fun. And then getting the computer to read your work out loud because they don't know what you were trying to say. And you might find out where somebody perhaps won't put the emphasis where you thought, and maybe you want to reconstruct that sentence to make sure that it's crystal crystal clear. So those are all good techniques to get at how the voice lands.

John (09:24): You want an interesting experience? I've done this over the years, read a book and listen to the author at the same time. And that is a really immersive way to hear voice. Yeah,

Ann (09:35): Yeah, I'll bet it is. Yeah, that's a great idea.

John (09:40): Hey, have you ever tried to hire freelancers and found that the quality of work was lacking or you got all the outsourcing excuses as to why the work didn't get done on time? Well, desk Team 360 has revolutionized the outsourcing game with their insourcing program that eliminates all those frustrations and excuses. You get unlimited graphic designs, website funnels, C R M, email automation, integrations, automations, really anything that requires you to log into software. Imagine all the time and frustrations you can save from trying to get your tech work done properly. We use Desk Team 360 every day in our business, and so I've negotiated you a 10% deal. That's right. Just go to a desk, team 360 info, book a discovery call, and you'll receive the special duct tape Marketing 10% off because hey, your pal John always takes care of you. So that's it. Go to desk team 360 info and book your call today. Try that. So there we have personality traits. Are there writing voice attributes that we can identify, that we can practice, that we can try to hone?

Ann (10:50): Yeah, absolutely. There's a bunch of things that we can do. There's stylistic choices that we make that we can use and experiment with in the book The Writer's Voice, I have people experiment at the extremes. Sometimes try to write something using only one syllable words so hard, but really fun because it makes you think about the words that you choose. We can also try to plug into an emotion or we can try to plug into an intention that is not our normal one and really experiment. I think that most people find that their range of writing voice is much larger than they actually use most of the time. And they may find that as they push out to one side or the other, they find something really fun that they can bring in or that might be a nice addition to the way that they normally write.

John (11:37): Should you fight for some of your voice and style decisions? I know that one of the things that I think it's intentional now in my writing is I will list three things and I will leave out. And so instead of this and this, I'll say this, this, this, and it's intentional, but it drives your Chicago style guide editor crazy. So are there things that once you know they're intentional, and I'm not saying that you always just say it my way or not, but I mean are there things that you might do that are a part of your voice that you say no? That's just like a little trait.

Ann (12:12): Absolutely. Think people use, that's something that you do. People can use punctuation. We can legitimately use sentence fragments if we are using them well and know what we're doing. So a good editor should never smooth out your voice, should never eliminate your voice. They might clear things that are in the way of people hearing the voice and that's legit. But if in your case, if you were submitting to a publisher and this is your thing, just say, this is part of my style guide. This is the John Chach style, this is what I do with list the three. Deal

John (12:43): With that. Okay. You heard it. You heard it here first and said I can stop. I can start sentences with a preposition. Okay, so there,

Ann (12:51): Yeah, absolutely. Go for it. Just say it's intentional. This is my personal style.

John (12:55): Alright, so you use both these words, tone and style, and I'm curious if you could help us define those or at least differentiate those.

Ann (13:03): Yeah. So style to me, and they're so often used interchangeably. The style to me is actually the set of tools that we use to put things on the page. So I have the Chicago manual style. The addition I have is like four inches thick or something. So many style decisions, right? Semicolons not

John (13:24): Get drunk and white.

Ann (13:25): Yes. Yeah,

John (13:26): Much shorter.

Ann (13:27): Well, it doesn't tell you what order things need to go in a book. I mean, this is the bible of stylistic decisions. So there's thousands of decisions and we do most of them without thinking about them. And that's fine, but it's the tools that we have and tone is what those tools create. So style is maybe the painter's brushstrokes tone is the picture right, and the picture is perceived by the viewer tone of your reading. Is that the tone as interpreted by the reader? So I use stylistic things to project a certain tone and hope that it worked, cross my fingers and hope it works.

John (14:05): So we're going to get into the format of the book itself, but I'm curious, I know you did some research kind of led you to your decisions about what went in the book. Tell me a little bit about that project.

Ann (14:15): So I did two things. One is that I interviewed a bunch of people about how they felt about their writing voice and what they thought about it. And I really found this again, sense that it's something that most writers just don't really give that much thought to. And yet when you ask them questions about what they would change, they all have things that they would want to change about their writing, which I think is interesting. And then I was working on this book and I started creating exercises to play with the different ideas. And I got a group of people, bless their hearts, let me send them these exercises once a week. Crazy things to do. Some of 'em I really found out were way too hard or too involved. So I dialed them back and I just tested them on people as well as myself of course.

(14:56): And that it was interesting because John, I said out to write a traditional book, it was going to be a book and maybe there would be an accompanying work. And I was halfway through it, all this research, I may have maybe 23,000 words of a draft. I mean, I was really in the book and I said, you know what? Reading a book about writing voice and hoping to be a better writer is reading a cookbook and thinking that's going to make you a better cook. It is not. You got to actually do the cooking, you have to actually do the writing. So midway through, I just abandoned it and I merged the workbook and the book together, cut a lot of the traditional parts of a book out, put in a lot of the exercises in the book, said write in this here. I made it really welcoming for people to pick up a pen and write. And I'm really,

John (15:44): Because showing a picture, it's big old workbook, right? It's

Ann (15:47): Big. It's workbook format. I really want to just get that idea that my gosh, you better pick up a pen when you get this thing and it's okay to write in it because that's how you're going to get the value from it is doing the ideas in it.

John (16:00): Yeah, actually, one of the books I wrote had prompts in it every day and you were supposed to write, and I can't tell you how many people wrote back to me and said, oh no, I can't write in the book. You need to produce a workbook.

Ann (16:10): Precisely. I'm one of those people. It's like, I must've gotten my hand slapped for writing a book when I was a child because it's like, even if there's prompts, it's like I'm not going to write in that. What are you nuts?

John (16:18): So talk a little bit about some of the exercises maybe. I mean, there are many, many exercises. So maybe pick out a handful and say, well, here's what you'll encounter on this exercise just to give people a flavor.

Ann (16:31): Yeah, so sure. So I'll give you two really radically different ones. One of them, which I really enjoy, is just to strip out everything except the punctuation. And it's something that you've written and it's so interesting because it tells you something about your sentence structures.

John (16:45): Wait a minute. So we're just left with periods and commas, is that what you're saying?

Ann (16:48): Periods, commas, semicolons, dashes, just the punctuation kinds

John (16:52): Of exclamation points for me,

Ann (16:54): Exclamation points you get to see. It's like, wow, I really do use a lot of exclamation points. And I did this and then I did the same thing for other writers that I admire in different genres. So for a literary writer author who I'm on his email list, I did it for one of his posts and his punctuation was much more free flowing than mine. It was very interesting. So that was kind of fun. And then on another extreme, one of these exercises where I asked people to test their extremes. I have an exercise called fancy or folksy, and to take the same thing and write it in asite or obscure or fancy, just, I mean set the dial to 11 on that. I mean, just go be crazy, be nutsy. Just do something super out there. And then to do something that's super folksy or slimy or just way more than you would ever do. And I had so much fun doing these, first of all. So it's like a warmup. It loosens things out and it also makes you think, wait, there was that thing there. My metaphors got looser when I got folksy. Or, it's very interesting. You test the extremes and then you find maybe your center could be a little one way or the other. So those are two of the kinds of exercises. That's fine.

John (18:03): Alright. Because nobody's going to listen unless I mention AI today.

Ann (18:06): Yes, yes.

John (18:07): Where do you think will, I mean there's lots of opinions about AI and writing in general, but where do you think we land with style and tone and voice?

Ann (18:16): So this is so interesting because as I was writing and working and researching, AI was really chat. G P T was evolving in crazy ways. And a part of me first thought, oh my gosh, if you can just ask chatt to make your writing funny, it's going to do it and maybe no one needs this book. And I've completely switched. I think that AI actually is making us think about voice more than we did. So it's very interesting. I think the book is timely in a way I didn't expect with that, which is we read something first and we go, oh, that was written by ai. There's no human there. So we're aware of when voice is off or missing or generic, and I think we recognize the value that there is in a real human voice connection. What's really who we are, that human connection

John (19:05): Theoretically. Wouldn't machine learning be able to read enough hemmingway to produce hemmingway voice?

Ann (19:10): Sure. I mean, you can ask it to write something like this author, that author Hemmingway and people are, so if that's what you want to do, if you want to upload everything yours and say, write in my style, you could do that for little transactional writing and things. But I think that the reason that we connect with someone, if you're writing as a solo printer or small business owner, I think your value is yourself, is your personality. And I abdicate that, is to give up something that is important to your brand. I think that AI could be an incredible tool as part of the writing process. And I'm working still on how I integrate it into my writing process. Yeah,

John (19:52): It's a great assistant, but I'm with you. I think where the real edges of voice or I might say something like, well, that was a load of crap. I mean, I might write something like that. I don't think AI would ever write that. And I think that's the edges of our voice that it'll never be able to pick up because it might be how we're feeling that day.

Ann (20:12): That's right. It's not. It's for the most part, trending to the middle, trending to the norm, language patterns, that's what i's looking for is language patterns. So I don't want to advocate that. And I think when I read something from you, John, I can see your voice. I can see your written, I can picture you, and I don't want to lose that. So if AI helps more people get things out into the world that are authentically their ideas and their thoughts, then it's great. But I just would be really careful about asking it to write for you,

John (20:42): Have it write metadata on your webpages all day long. Title tags, go for it.

Ann (20:48): Please, please. And it's a lovely non-judgmental brainstorming buddy. You can give it an idea. It comes back with ideas and you're like, yeah, that's okay. Actually, that metaphor is kind of lame, but it made me think of this other one, which I think is better. So I use it for those kinds of things. There's a lot of uses, like I said, it's a tool. We can use it well, we can use it poorly. I think the great writers will learn how to use it well and be more effective and

John (21:11): Efficient. And that's a great point. I mean, I think even for marketers, it's not going to replace marketers, but somebody who is strategically focused, who is using AI might replace marketers. That's the key. It's like you almost have to be using these, but you have to be using them in the right way.

Ann (21:30): That's true. And so that's a learning curve. We're all climbing still.

John (21:34): And of course a year from now you and I'll be having a totally different conversation about too. Right? Exactly. That's part of the climb, right? And you want to tell people where they might connect with you and obviously pick up a copy of the writer's voice or any of your other works.

Ann (21:48): Sure. The easiest thing is just to look for my website, which is my name Anne with a silent e janer.com. I have an email list that I share writing practices every other week, and once a month I do a drawing for writing related book. And it's just entertaining if you want to be part of that. And the book is available in any place you can buy books. If they don't carry it, you can order it from them. But it's called the Writer's Voice.

John (22:13): This seems like a good workshop. Are you doing a workshop with this?

Ann (22:16): That is in my fall thing to figure out because yeah, it is practically that workshop built into it, right?

John (22:23): Yeah. But doing it with a cohort I think would be kind of fun.

Ann (22:26): I think it would be a lot of fun to share those exercises with people. So I think you're

John (22:30): Right. Well, Anne, it was great catching up with you and having you spend a few moments at the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. And hopefully we'll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Ann (22:38): Yes, thanks a lot, John. It's great being back.

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